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Character most in need of a nerf

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Silask20

Smash Apprentice
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Jul 2, 2019
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133
And dont give me the “nobody l2p” bull like you’re something. No game is perfectly balanced there will always be an edge some things have over other things but one moreso than the rest.

That being said, for me its snake. Sure hes semi complicated, but once u master his arsenal there isnt really much anyone can do to counter him.

Oh and hes basically the only character that can take away all recovery options at the ledge with insanely OP ledge guard
 
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Sean²

Smash Capitalist
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1,657
Switch FC
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I don't have a specific character in mind. I'm completely fine with characters being strong onstage. But if I were to nerf one thing that isn't in the core game mechanics, it'd be the characters that have god-tier recoveries. Like, you're not rewarded at all for getting some characters offstage and successfully edgeguarding them. You hit them further and further out 4-5 times and they still recover with just their up B. I can't figure out the sense behind giving characters free recoveries. I'm looking at the Pikachus and the Inkling-types out there that can get back from the bottom corner blastzone free.

And if you're playing online, it's even harder to edgeguard characters that should be easy because they have no up B hitbox. Like Snake and Villager. You normally gotta aim for the thing they're riding on to gimp them, but online makes that harder than it should be.

And dont give me the “nobody l2p” bull like you’re something. No game is perfectly balanced there will always be an edge some things have over other things but one moreso than the rest.

That being said, for me its snake. Sure hes semi complicated, but once u master his arsenal there isnt really much anyone can do to counter him.

Oh and hes basically the only character that can take away all recovery options at the ledge with insanely OP ledge guard
Snake is very annoying, but really not unbeatable. He just requires you to think about your gameplan differently. I do agree about Nikita offstage, but you can usually hit it with a disjoint and send it off-course enough to get by it.
 
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Predatoria

Smash Journeyman
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Jan 30, 2019
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361
Location
Raleigh, North Carolina
Switch FC
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For me, it's gotta be Pikachu. The character is so outrageously overtuned it's not even fun to fight them.

All of their attacks are multi-hit, meaning you can't even spot dodge half their toolkit and they just throw out hitboxes that last half a second nonstop.

Their recovery is so good they're nearly impossible to edgeguard, which, as a Ridley main, really sucks, as it removes the part of the game my main excels at the most for me, leaving me perpetually fighting him off in neutral or getting knocked into disadvantage (which usually goes very poorly). Pikachu literally just doesn't have disadvantage.

Excellent frame data

One of the smallest hitboxes in the game. Lots of stuff just doesn't work against them because of it.

Stupid good at edge guarding, where being off-stage against Pikachu usually means instant death to their stupid dair and god-tier recovery, of course the hitbox of which lasts way longer than it should. At least people with counters have to actually time it properly to hit me out of my up B. Pikachu just floats there for like 2 seconds spinning his head waiting for me to hit him.

Excellent at camping with jolt spam.

Getting hit once usually means taking 60+ % in combos that aren't even difficult to execute. Their moves just link into each other over and over and over and over and over and over and over again. Even worse, sometimes that combo ends in a dair or a down b off-stage, meaning it 0 to deaths me.

The fight's so unfair feeling, I usually have to just take a break after encountering one because it's so rage-inducing. I don't mind being out-played, but being out-tiered is just plain no fun and nothing makes me feel more "low tier" than fighting those damn rats.
 
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Silask20

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 2, 2019
Messages
133
For me, it's gotta be Pikachu. The character is so outrageously overtuned it's not even fun to fight them.

All of their attacks are multi-hit, meaning you can't even spot dodge half their toolkit and they just throw out hitboxes that last half a second nonstop.

Their recovery is so good they're nearly impossible to edgeguard, which, as a Ridley main, really sucks, as it removes the part of the game my main excels at the most for me, leaving me perpetually fighting him off in neutral or getting knocked into disadvantage (which usually goes very poorly). Pikachu literally just doesn't have disadvantage.

Excellent frame data

One of the smallest hitboxes in the game. Lots of stuff just doesn't work against them because of it.

Stupid good at edge guarding, where being off-stage against Pikachu usually means instant death to their stupid dair and god-tier recovery, of course the hitbox of which lasts way longer than it should. At least people with counters have to actually time it properly to hit me out of my up B. Pikachu just floats there for like 2 seconds spinning his head waiting for me to hit him.

Excellent at camping with jolt spam.

Getting hit once usually means taking 60+ % in combos that aren't even difficult to execute. Their moves just link into each other over and over and over and over and over and over and over again. Even worse, sometimes that combo ends in a dair or a down b off-stage, meaning it 0 to deaths me.

The fight's so unfair feeling, I usually have to just take a break after encountering one because it's so rage-inducing. I don't mind being out-played, but being out-tiered is just plain no fun and nothing makes me feel more "low tier" than fighting those damn rats.
Yes as a bowser main pichu and pikachus tend to give me a hard time and it has little to do with the skill of my opponent and a good amount to do with the fact alot of my attacks simply miss because they are so small.

Also pikachus spend most of their time against me in the air spamming jump and nuetral B trying. To cowardice to approach me unless they know for sure ive left them some type of opening. I find this matchup boring as its usually me chasing the coward from one side of the stage to the other, combatting their nuetral special spam as they fly around like a fairy.
 

Tortfeasor

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 20, 2020
Messages
37
Everyone except the characters I like!

In all seriousness, it's not necessarily the characters that need a nerf, it's the moves. If there is a common thread shared between the characters most people might say need a nerf it's that their moves tends to include a lot of multi-hit, highly active, and disjointed attacks. Predatoria already pointed about Pikachu, but others that spring to mind are Palutena and Ness. Want to challenged Ness in the air? Well you better have a sword or it's not happening. Want to body Palutena so she stops Explosive Flame? Get ready to be Nair juggled until they get bored or you get lucky and you get knocked away from rather than further into the Nair.

I apologize in advance for focusing on Ridley. He's the character I have the most experience with and thus is easier for me to contrast with other characters.

The problem I have with those attacks is there is no tradeoff. For example, Ridley's Nair deals about 74 knockback to Marth at 0% damage hitting with the sweetspot and causes 12% damage. Palutena's does 10.7% damage over 5 hits with a knockback on the final hit of 67. With that, you might think Ridley's Nair is better (it is admittedly pretty darn good). However, Ridley's Nair is only active for 12 frames, with a startup of 8 frames. Palutena's has a startup of 5 frames and is active for 25 frames, twice that of Ridley. The difference in damage and knockback is negligible, but Palutena gets far more time where her Nair is effective. What this means is that mistiming her Nair isn't as serious as mistiming Ridley's; there's a much greater window to hit your opponent. This difference is further exacerbated by the problems inherent playing online.

My thinking would be that having a multi-hit, active, disjointed attack would have some sort of trade-off. Whether that trade-off be reduce power, greater starting and/or ending lag, whatever. It just seems that those kind of attacks are safer, more forgiving, just as powerful, and create more combo opportunities that single strikes. Each attack should have a risk/reward, but many of these moves on the top tier characters lack the risk part.
 

Firox

Smash Master
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3,336
Personally, I'd have to say Hero is pretty freaking broken as character, and I'm not even talking about the RNG of his down special. Let's just look at his projectiles alone:

Neutral B: Even at lvl 2, it does 18% damage, travels reasonably fast, and has enough knockback to kill at about 90% near the ledge. At lvl 3, it's just downright stupid, doing about 31-37% damage and killing from center stage as early as 70%. Sorry, that is just bull ****. There is no chargeable projectile in the game that does THAT much damage and kills THAT early. You've got Samus' charge shot, Lucario's aura sphere, Water Shuriken, etc. etc. and NONE of them are that insane with damage output and kill potential. It's like having Ganon's forward smash as a freaking projectile!!! Sure, lvl 3 is a little slow, but when cleverly mixed into a fight, it's undeniably OP. People try to say that MP burn is a huge limitation, but for a skilled Hero, it really isn't. He has enough tools with his normals to keep more than enough MP for one well-placed shot to net a stock.

Side B: Again, the damage is total bull ****. Lvl 2 does a solid 25% damage with a move that is both incredibly fast and covers literally half of battlefield/FD. For those that simply say, "JuSt JuMp OvEr It!", again, a skilled Hero can use it while falling to gain some vertical coverage as well. In some cases, they can bait you into jumping over what you thought was lvl 2 only to hit you with the lvl 3 when your attack dinks off the super armor. Oh, and BTW, the lvl 3 kills at 40%.

All in all, it's not very fun getting deleted at least 4 different ways, and I haven't even addressed the critical smashes or the thwack insta-kills. Bottomline is, I think they need to seriously scale back the damage and knockback of his specials and crits. Neutral B shouldn't do any more than say 25% at lvl 3, and Side B needs to get nerfed down to something like 10-15% at level 2. That, or at least raise the MP costs enough to make the moves far less spammable. As it is, I feel Hero makes most of the heavies completely obsolete by out-ranging and out-damaging them in addition to having a super good recovery which many of them lack as well.
 

Eisal

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Sometimes I feel like some really fast characters deserves a nerf, but I know I'm not an incredibly good player and cannot always keep up with the fast speed some characters have.
 

Tortfeasor

Smash Cadet
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Messages
37
Personally, I'd have to say Hero is pretty freaking broken as character, and I'm not even talking about the RNG of his down special. Let's just look at his projectiles alone:

Neutral B: Even at lvl 2, it does 18% damage, travels reasonably fast, and has enough knockback to kill at about 90% near the ledge. At lvl 3, it's just downright stupid, doing about 31-37% damage and killing from center stage as early as 70%. Sorry, that is just bull ****. There is no chargeable projectile in the game that does THAT much damage and kills THAT early. You've got Samus' charge shot, Lucario's aura sphere, Water Shuriken, etc. etc. and NONE of them are that insane with damage output and kill potential. It's like having Ganon's forward smash as a freaking projectile!!! Sure, lvl 3 is a little slow, but when cleverly mixed into a fight, it's undeniably OP. People try to say that MP burn is a huge limitation, but for a skilled Hero, it really isn't. He has enough tools with his normals to keep more than enough MP for one well-placed shot to net a stock.

Side B: Again, the damage is total bull ****. Lvl 2 does a solid 25% damage with a move that is both incredibly fast and covers literally half of battlefield/FD. For those that simply say, "JuSt JuMp OvEr It!", again, a skilled Hero can use it while falling to gain some vertical coverage as well. In some cases, they can bait you into jumping over what you thought was lvl 2 only to hit you with the lvl 3 when your attack dinks off the super armor. Oh, and BTW, the lvl 3 kills at 40%.

All in all, it's not very fun getting deleted at least 4 different ways, and I haven't even addressed the critical smashes or the thwack insta-kills. Bottomline is, I think they need to seriously scale back the damage and knockback of his specials and crits. Neutral B shouldn't do any more than say 25% at lvl 3, and Side B needs to get nerfed down to something like 10-15% at level 2. That, or at least raise the MP costs enough to make the moves far less spammable. As it is, I feel Hero makes most of the heavies completely obsolete by out-ranging and out-damaging them in addition to having a super good recovery which many of them lack as well.
I think you're right that MP is not a meaningful limitation for Hero's moves and doesn't counterbalance sheer damage and knockback caused by his Neutral-B and Side-B. In nearly every respect, Hero's Neutral-B is a far more dangerous move compared to other charged shot-style moves (Samus, Mewtwo, Lucario, etc.). The trade-off is supposedly that Hero cannot sit and spam Neutral-B (or any of his specials), which forces Hero engage in close combat. On paper, that makes sense. In practice, I've seen Heroes that are just as campy as the worst Samus players and it feels like their MP in inexhaustable. Personally, I'd be more in favour of increasing the MP cost rather than decreasing its damage or knockback. There are few things in Smash as satisfying as seeing Hero failing to recover because they blew all their MP fishing for Neutral-B kills.

This also got me thinking about the nature of charge-shot attacks. There are two styles currently found in the game. First are the Samus-style attacks where you charge and store your attack. The second are the charge and fire style found on attacks like Hero's Side-B, Ridley's Neutral-B, or Bowser Jr.'s Neutral-B. I'm making a gross generalization, but I would say it is more preferable to have a Stored-Shot on a fighter. The advantages are that you can fire a fully charged shot on a moment's notice and can attack normally until such a time as when you fire. It's also important to note that Stored-Shots are meant to be kill moves, they cover a large area, and travel pretty fast (but not unreasonably fast). The supposed trade-off is that it takes time to charge the shot and you're vulnerable when charging. However, you can shield to cancel and store the charge you have and continue charging later. Think of any time a Samus starts charging; how often can you really punish her for it? As soon as a good Samus player sees anything within striking distance, they can easily shield and charge later. The trade-off is meant to be having to commit yourself to charge and expose yourself, but in practice there is little danger to the charging fighter.

In contrast, there are Charge-and-Fire Shots. These attacks can vary in how they fire, from Ridley's bouncing balls of fire to Bowser Jr.'s linear cannonball. This style cannot be stored for later, so once you commit to using it, you either have to let go early or wait to fully charge. Additionally, they generally do not have the same range or coverage as Stored-Shot attacks; Ridley's plasma breath doesn't reach the full length of Battlefield and Bowser Jr.'s cannonball, even fully charged, drops off, while Samus' or Hero's attacks cover a wide area and travel the full length (and beyond) of most stages. I guess the advantage of Charge-and-Fire Shots is they charge faster, but that alone doesn't really make up for not being able to store the charge; you're more vulnerable, you're less mobile, can't otherwise attack, and your intent is more telegraphed. It makes me wonder what design philosophy determines when a character gets a Stored-Shot versus a Charge-and-Fire Shot.

Imagine how much more improved Bowser Jr. would be if he could store his cannonball? Or if Ridley could spew out a fully charged plasma breath on a moment's notice? Or imagine literally any other chargeable special with the ability to store the charge. The utility of those attacks, and thus their potency, becomes far greater.

The point of this rant is really that a nerf (or let's say a change in design) of Stored-Shots would certainly alleviate many gripes people have with Samus, Hero, etc. Just imagine how those characters would play if their charged shots operated on the same principles as nearly every other character.
 

Firox

Smash Master
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Messages
3,336
I think you're right that MP is not a meaningful limitation for Hero's moves and doesn't counterbalance sheer damage and knockback caused by his Neutral-B and Side-B. In nearly every respect, Hero's Neutral-B is a far more dangerous move compared to other charged shot-style moves (Samus, Mewtwo, Lucario, etc.). The trade-off is supposedly that Hero cannot sit and spam Neutral-B (or any of his specials), which forces Hero engage in close combat. On paper, that makes sense. In practice, I've seen Heroes that are just as campy as the worst Samus players and it feels like their MP in inexhaustable. Personally, I'd be more in favour of increasing the MP cost rather than decreasing its damage or knockback. There are few things in Smash as satisfying as seeing Hero failing to recover because they blew all their MP fishing for Neutral-B kills.

This also got me thinking about the nature of charge-shot attacks. There are two styles currently found in the game. First are the Samus-style attacks where you charge and store your attack. The second are the charge and fire style found on attacks like Hero's Side-B, Ridley's Neutral-B, or Bowser Jr.'s Neutral-B. I'm making a gross generalization, but I would say it is more preferable to have a Stored-Shot on a fighter. The advantages are that you can fire a fully charged shot on a moment's notice and can attack normally until such a time as when you fire. It's also important to note that Stored-Shots are meant to be kill moves, they cover a large area, and travel pretty fast (but not unreasonably fast). The supposed trade-off is that it takes time to charge the shot and you're vulnerable when charging. However, you can shield to cancel and store the charge you have and continue charging later. Think of any time a Samus starts charging; how often can you really punish her for it? As soon as a good Samus player sees anything within striking distance, they can easily shield and charge later. The trade-off is meant to be having to commit yourself to charge and expose yourself, but in practice there is little danger to the charging fighter.

In contrast, there are Charge-and-Fire Shots. These attacks can vary in how they fire, from Ridley's bouncing balls of fire to Bowser Jr.'s linear cannonball. This style cannot be stored for later, so once you commit to using it, you either have to let go early or wait to fully charge. Additionally, they generally do not have the same range or coverage as Stored-Shot attacks; Ridley's plasma breath doesn't reach the full length of Battlefield and Bowser Jr.'s cannonball, even fully charged, drops off, while Samus' or Hero's attacks cover a wide area and travel the full length (and beyond) of most stages. I guess the advantage of Charge-and-Fire Shots is they charge faster, but that alone doesn't really make up for not being able to store the charge; you're more vulnerable, you're less mobile, can't otherwise attack, and your intent is more telegraphed. It makes me wonder what design philosophy determines when a character gets a Stored-Shot versus a Charge-and-Fire Shot.

Imagine how much more improved Bowser Jr. would be if he could store his cannonball? Or if Ridley could spew out a fully charged plasma breath on a moment's notice? Or imagine literally any other chargeable special with the ability to store the charge. The utility of those attacks, and thus their potency, becomes far greater.

The point of this rant is really that a nerf (or let's say a change in design) of Stored-Shots would certainly alleviate many gripes people have with Samus, Hero, etc. Just imagine how those characters would play if their charged shots operated on the same principles as nearly every other character.
With your thoughts in mind, I suppose another reasonable nerf to Hero's neutral B would be to have it "unstoreable". That is, he should have to shoot on the spot like Side B so that he can't just bust it out mid-combo.
 

Silask20

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 2, 2019
Messages
133
I think you're right that MP is not a meaningful limitation for Hero's moves and doesn't counterbalance sheer damage and knockback caused by his Neutral-B and Side-B. In nearly every respect, Hero's Neutral-B is a far more dangerous move compared to other charged shot-style moves (Samus, Mewtwo, Lucario, etc.). The trade-off is supposedly that Hero cannot sit and spam Neutral-B (or any of his specials), which forces Hero engage in close combat. On paper, that makes sense. In practice, I've seen Heroes that are just as campy as the worst Samus players and it feels like their MP in inexhaustable. Personally, I'd be more in favour of increasing the MP cost rather than decreasing its damage or knockback. There are few things in Smash as satisfying as seeing Hero failing to recover because they blew all their MP fishing for Neutral-B kills.

This also got me thinking about the nature of charge-shot attacks. There are two styles currently found in the game. First are the Samus-style attacks where you charge and store your attack. The second are the charge and fire style found on attacks like Hero's Side-B, Ridley's Neutral-B, or Bowser Jr.'s Neutral-B. I'm making a gross generalization, but I would say it is more preferable to have a Stored-Shot on a fighter. The advantages are that you can fire a fully charged shot on a moment's notice and can attack normally until such a time as when you fire. It's also important to note that Stored-Shots are meant to be kill moves, they cover a large area, and travel pretty fast (but not unreasonably fast). The supposed trade-off is that it takes time to charge the shot and you're vulnerable when charging. However, you can shield to cancel and store the charge you have and continue charging later. Think of any time a Samus starts charging; how often can you really punish her for it? As soon as a good Samus player sees anything within striking distance, they can easily shield and charge later. The trade-off is meant to be having to commit yourself to charge and expose yourself, but in practice there is little danger to the charging fighter.

In contrast, there are Charge-and-Fire Shots. These attacks can vary in how they fire, from Ridley's bouncing balls of fire to Bowser Jr.'s linear cannonball. This style cannot be stored for later, so once you commit to using it, you either have to let go early or wait to fully charge. Additionally, they generally do not have the same range or coverage as Stored-Shot attacks; Ridley's plasma breath doesn't reach the full length of Battlefield and Bowser Jr.'s cannonball, even fully charged, drops off, while Samus' or Hero's attacks cover a wide area and travel the full length (and beyond) of most stages. I guess the advantage of Charge-and-Fire Shots is they charge faster, but that alone doesn't really make up for not being able to store the charge; you're more vulnerable, you're less mobile, can't otherwise attack, and your intent is more telegraphed. It makes me wonder what design philosophy determines when a character gets a Stored-Shot versus a Charge-and-Fire Shot.

Imagine how much more improved Bowser Jr. would be if he could store his cannonball? Or if Ridley could spew out a fully charged plasma breath on a moment's notice? Or imagine literally any other chargeable special with the ability to store the charge. The utility of those attacks, and thus their potency, becomes far greater.

The point of this rant is really that a nerf (or let's say a change in design) of Stored-Shots would certainly alleviate many gripes people have with Samus, Hero, etc. Just imagine how those characters would play if their charged shots operated on the same principles as nearly every other character.
Your responses are very well spoken and well thought out and honestly couldnt agree more.
 

Tortfeasor

Smash Cadet
Joined
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Messages
37
With your thoughts in mind, I suppose another reasonable nerf to Hero's neutral B would be to have it "unstoreable". That is, he should have to shoot on the spot like Side B so that he can't just bust it out mid-combo.
I guess that what I'm advocating for pretty much any charge move. That being said, it's not like Samus or Hero are tearing up the competitive scene as is. If they were changed so that they couldn't be stored, I would expect other moves might get buffed to make up the slack.

Perhaps a neat middle ground is that characters with chargeable attacks can still move and jump (thinking DeDeDe with his Down-B), but they can't otherwise attack. Although I suppose you could argue DeDeDe being able to move is a special case because of his low mobility. Anyway, it would be nice to not sit there like big target whenever I charge Plasma Breath.
 

TennisBall

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 17, 2019
Messages
273
I'm not too sure. There's two main options for me.

Pikachu is extremely good in my opinion. With pancaking on the ground after most landings, having most of his attacks safe on shield, his vicious combo game, his nearly not existent disadvantage state, the only thing holding the character back is a lack of results, but ESAM is pushing this character to his sky-high limits. Now, I'm not a fan of gutting things out of characters because they are good, and as much as I dislike Pikachu's aerials, I wouldn't go so far as to say that they are overtuned, and even than, every character in this game has silly attributes about them.

The first thing that comes to mind is to make Pikachu lighter. As it stands currently, I think there is no reason why Fox should be lighter than Pikachu, with Fox being bigger, easier to hit, and more prone to off-stage deaths than Pikachu. The second and last nerf I would make is to make Pikachu bigger and to have him no longer pancake on landing. What pancaking means in this term is that the character in question squishs onto the ground almost like a pancake upon landing onto the stage and becomes nearly impossible to hit. Pikachu is already very small and is at times smaller than his pre-evolution, Pichu, because of Pichu's ears, and I do not feel like Pikachu needs to have pancaking on top of that. That is all I would do, Pikachu still gets to have his silly stuff, but now his weaknesses are a bit more glaring, allowing him to have to be more careful.

The second option would be the Phantom Thief himself, Joker. Undoubtedly a top tier character, his comeback mechanic of Arsene, his great tools in neutral game, the many different varities of Gun, and Joker had the best results out of any character during the second Season of the PGRU. Now, once again, I do not want to extremely nerf this character, I just think that he could be toned down just a tiny bit.

One thing I think could be is to nerf Gun, for the most part just Down Gun. I think that making the bullets a projectile rather than a very long disjointed hitbox is not an awful idea, and would make it more fair to other moves in comparison to say, Mega Man's Down Air, which is a projectile and thus could be reflected, but has a spike hitbox. so it's still very good. There also has been discussion about nerfing Joker's counter, more noticeably the Arsene variant, Tetrakarn. I would say making the hitbox on the move when you counter it would not be a bad change, especially considering the size of the move is extremely huge. I also think that Joker shouldn't get 20% of his Arsene meter upon losing a stock. He does not need it.

Those are my personal takes on the matter, personally, I believe we should for sure buff more than nerf. Thoughts?
 

Concept

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Hmmm, Game and Watch for me. It seems that his arsenal can be used at any given moment seemingly without lag. Two smash attacks can be used in succession. His up-b can be used from a ridiculous distance, able to be canceled out of for an attack. Oil Panic isn‘t considered a projectile even though it attacks like one. Etc.
 

Blutrausch

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Jan 16, 2020
Messages
46
Joker is still an excellent character. He hasn't received significant nerfs. If Arsene charged only when Joker dealt damage and used Rebel's Guard, the rate of his meter would be reduced. If receiving damage also reduced the meter without Arsene present, that would help. Still, if Arsene was only present for 15 seconds instead of 30 seconds, that'd also great help. Those would be nerfs.

Joker is already fast in both mobility and moves. He deals a lot of damage with reliable combos and can easily turn the match around in a moment's notice. Palutena also needs nerfs. She moves too fast and her f-air is rather ridiculous in how quick it is and how easy it lands. For both of these characters, I think adding some extra frames for landing lag would help, too.

As for Pikachu, give it a larger hurtbox.
 

Silask20

Smash Apprentice
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Jul 2, 2019
Messages
133
Going to add yoshi to this list. A yoshi who stays airborne and spams down airs is to much. Idk why they made the floatiest and quickest air fighter heavy aswell
 
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Dilan Omer

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Pikachu lol. That character is so overtuned and annoying online.

But the nerf needs to be minor.
 
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