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Character Exploration Thread - Day 79: Axel Stone (Streets of Rage)

Commander_Alph

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Now's my turn, do you guys accept the idea of fan remix of the songs a guarantee or not? For me, even if it's too good to be true I actually want Sakurai's own composer team remix the majority of the OST which actually be really fun for us and for them.
 
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SharkLord

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Isaac (TBoI) x10
Also, I think we shouldn’t be earning extra noms from asking questions because sometimes, it feels like nom-hoarding to be honest.
The problem with that is it would basically mean people who don't know about the series or character that well won't be able to partake in the discussion effectively. By allowing questions to give noms, it means people have an incentive to pop by every day, ask a question, get extra noms, and slowly build up to discussing someone they are familiar with. I don't want to make the thread just an extension of a support thread and/or only used by a select few people because those unfamiliar think they can't add to the discussion.

That and questions actually make up the bulk of the extra noms handed out and I'd rather not neuter the output.
 

Gengar84

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Now's my turn, do you guys accept the idea of fan remix of the songs a guarantee or not? For me, even if it's too good to be true I actually want Sakurai's own composer team remix the majority of the OST which actually be really fun for us and for them.
If I’m understanding the question correctly, I think it would be cool to have a few fan remixes since the Touhou remix culture is so huge in Japan. Obviously they would have to credit and compensate anyone they used remixes from as well as get their permission if they used existing remixes. I think it would be a fun idea to bring in some of the most prominent fan remixers to come in and make new arrangements just for Smash. I do agree that it would be cool to have official remixes as well.

Let me transition this into another question. Since Touhou’s music is so huge, I would think they would want to add as much of it as they could. What songs specifically would you all like to see make it into Smash?
 
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Commander_Alph

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Also here's a list of Touhou character that could actually be a spirit (pre-Unconnected Marketeers). Posted originally on her support thread.

Made a mock-up spirit list of every possible Touhou character that could be added into Smash Bros Ultimate if Reimu were added since the base game.
What are your thoughts?
 
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GolisoPower

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Reimu's WAY too much of a sensation in Japan to not go unnoticed by Sakurai. It's basically the "Indie Gamer's Dragon Quest" at this rate for crying out loud! It's also a franchise that countless people don't know that they're a fan of, what with all the references and memes. The Angry Dog Noises meme, the U.N. Owen Ronald McDonald stuff, and just about anything with Cirno, all of it leads back to Touhou. And there are even some references to Touhou that probably go over so many heads (Such as Youmuu's Ghostblade in League of Legends, and Utsuho parody in Craig of the Creek, hell, the other day I found a U.N. Owen reference in CALL OF DUTY.) that if Touhou does make it into Smash, the masses would go nuts over just how many things lead back to it.

How would Reimu’s trailer be like? What would her tag line be?

Nominating Trauma Center Content x5
I personally would like to see it being REIMU Is Now Prepared! as a reference to the "Girls are now preparing" message during the loading screens. It's a frequent thing you see in every Touhou game, much like how Dragon Quest has those "A monster draws near!" messages that were used in the Hero's tagline.

As for the trailer, I could imagine it being 2D animation like Commander_Alph said, but it'd start off with the entire Touhou cast having a Danmaku battle royale over a Smash invite, only for Yukari to snatch it and, knowing who it's for, bring it to Reimu. Reimu would take a good look at her new Smash invite before Yukari pushes her into a gap that sends the shrine maiden to Smash. Though on the other hand, I would think that having a Smash invite in Gensokyo at all is grounds for an incident, so maybe Reimu would go in and just wipe them all out before the trailer kicks up and shows off Reimu's gameplay.

Now's my turn, do you guys accept the idea of fan remix of the songs a guarantee or not? For me, even if it's too good to be true I actually want Sakurai's own composer team remix the majority of the OST which actually be really fun for us and for them.
This is a bit of a conundrum. On the one hand, Sakurai has shown some degree of respect with the third-party franchises and the ones that created them so I'm sure Sakurai would respect ZUN's guidelines somewhat, but on the other hand, this is SMASH we're talking about, so I'm sure the latter would loosen up for that. As for how many, well, of course, Touhou is so popular when it comes to remixes it's practically its own genre at this point. I could see Sakurai's music team making a good chunk of the potential music remixes, like maybe near-half or 1/3.

As for my nomination: Pyramid Head x5
 
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GolisoPower

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Would Reimu have a voice or not?
This is an interesting thing to think about, too.

Reimu has had no shortage of voice actresses in the past, and there have been cases with characters who were unable to talk in their source material gaining voices like with the Earthbound characters, so I don't think it'd be too out there to give Reimu a voice. Maybe have her voiced by Mai Nakahara from that Summer Day's Dream fanime. The question now is if Reimu would be in a similar situation to Cloud and Sephiroth in the sense that it's only Japanese.
 
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Commander_Alph

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This is an interesting thing to think about, too.

Reimu has had no shortage of voice actresses in the past, and there have been cases with characters who were unable to talk in their source material gaining voices like with the Earthbound characters, so I don't think it'd be too out there to give Reimu a voice. Maybe have her voiced by Mai Nakahara from that Summer Day's Dream fanime. The question now is if Reimu would be in a similar situation to Cloud and Sephiroth in the sense that it's only Japanese.
My views on this is just gave her grunt and broken engrish which like Kirby and Ness examplify didn't need a regional VA
 

SharkLord

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How would Reimu’s trailer be like? What would her tag line be?

Nominating Trauma Center Content x5
For one, we could do a continuation of the Belmont's trailer, except with the Scarlet Devil Mansion (And Remilia experiencing extreme pain over Luigi's flashlight because vampire). Bonus points if they decide to bring in the Knife Item Crash in a Richter vs. Sakuya fight, or at least a nod to the Knife subweapon, just because.

The second is Reimu casually dodging all of Galeem and/or Dharkon's attacks, just to demonstrate what kind of game she's from.

My personal favorite is Reimu getting up, checking the donation box and finding the letter in it... Only to just chuck it away and go back to bed. And then the letter keeps coming back until she gives in. I think it would also be really funny if the camera pans away to show that the letter was sent by Yukari - Or, if we want to go really off-the-wall, Mima.
Would Reimu have a voice or not?
That's a good question, actually. The official games have never had voice acting, but Smash has given voices to characters who haven't spoken before, like Ness and the earlier Heroes. Touhou characters are fairly talkative, so it'd make sense if Reimu had a VA. I also think she'd be permanently in Japanese mode like the FF7 fighters, thanks to Touhou's awkward translation status. I feel like Sakurai would want us to project our own voices onto her, just like with the official games.
 

Commander_Alph

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So like Terry?
Yeah, kinda like that





Okay, this might not be a hard question to ask but are we going to prioritized Windows game only or are the PC-98 games too? Since Touhou glory days were back with the release of EoSD just like how Street Fighter has a big emphasis on SF2 along with Wario with WarioWare, I imagine from the PC-98 game only a handful of the music added, probably not character because, going off by my stage concept, it is specifically based on the Windows and we all know that the canon between both of those are thin. Saying this because I don't want Touhou out of all thing have a separate group where they advocating content just because it is imperfect or full of bias like the pre-FF7 crowd or the post-Sakurai developed games.
 
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Paraster

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Noms: Quote (Cave Story) x25

Despite my having had little experience with Touhou (only game I've played is Perfect Cherry Blossom, which I haven't beaten, though I did get close once), Reimu seems like a cool character. She could be a fun zoner, but I like the idea of her also being a sort of counter-zoner to reflect how Touhou is all about fighting against projectile users with crazy bullet patterns. BrawlFan1's video (which I think is pretty good, even if the idea of Smash borrowing from Touhou fangames is questionable) involves her up special being a dash that can absorb projectiles to power itself up, but you could (probably?) give her a more traditional reflection/absorption move.

Also, a while back, I made a playlist detailing what Reimu's music selection could be, deliberately kept (relatively) low to play devil's advocate against people who give her a Terry-tier selection. I do plan to rework it a bit more (to rely less on Reimu-centric themes, represent a wider range of games, and maybe incorporate themes of characters who'd be spirits), but overall I think it's a good selection if you want something that looks more restrained/"realistic" (though I concede that if any other franchise could get a boatload of music, it'd be Touhou).
 
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Commander_Alph

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unrelated question but are half baked write-ups like my stage concept also count as an extra noms and also I feel like we need to reward someone that can answer the questions, it's petty clear from the Adol days that only a small group of people mostly carrying the conversation, this probably could encourage the questionnaire to want to learn more about the series, this is also could benefit those character who are from a niche series which in the end is probably going to be a pain to count.
 
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Gengar84

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Ruler of Subspace

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Would Reimu have a voice or not?
I don't see why she wouldn't, aside from her not having a voice in any mainline games.

Now's my turn, do you guys accept the idea of fan remix of the songs a guarantee or not? For me, even if it's too good to be true I actually want Sakurai's own composer team remix the majority of the OST which actually be really fun for us and for them.
I'd say only a few fan remixes should be in, like "Night of Nights," "Bad Apple!!" and "Death Waltz." As far as the music selection goes, I'm sure it'll be the largest out of all DLC.

Let me transition this into another question. Since Touhou’s music is so huge, I would think they would want to add as much of it as they could. What songs specifically would you all like to see make it into Smash?
I want the three stated above, as well as:
Eternal Shrine Maiden
Phantasmagoria
Bad Apple!!
Pure Furies ~ Whereabouts of the Heart
Satori Maiden ~ 3rd Eye
U. N. Owen was Her?
Flowering Night
Lunar Clock ~ Lunar Dial (Night)
Doll Judgement (Night)
Beloved Tomboyish Girl
Heart-Stirring Urban Legends
Septette for the Dead Princess
Primordial Beat ~ Pristine Beat
Locked Girl ~ The Girl's Secret Room
Banditry Technology
Fortunate Kitten
Solar Sect of Mystic Wisdom ~ Nuclear Fusion

Whew, that took a while. Every one of these is good, I recommend giving each a listen if you have the time or even feel like it if you haven't already heard them.
Anyways, I'd love if these could get in, and would be happier if they got remixed. It's always good to hear new Touhou remixes! :)
 

SharkLord

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unrelated question but are half baked write-ups like my stage concept also count as an extra noms and also I feel like we need to reward someone that can answer the questions, it's petty clear from the Adol days that only a small group of people mostly carrying the conversation, this probably could encourage the questionnaire to want to learn more about the series, this is probably only benefit those character who are from a niche series and probably going to be a pain to count.
Your stage counts as an extra nom by virtue of being a gameplay concept. As for the rewarding answers thing... Not sure if you're saying we should or shouldn't do that. Are we saying we should because those people are carrying the conversation, or that we shouldn't because it only favors a select few people.
 

Commander_Alph

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Your stage counts as an extra nom by virtue of being a gameplay concept. As for the rewarding answers thing... Not sure if you're saying we should or shouldn't do that. Are we saying we should because those people are carrying the conversation, or that we shouldn't because it only favors a select few people.
probably should, it's going to be a slow day when character like say Ayumi (which we're having a hard time now if we should pushback her day or not) who not many people can get to know her up until now with the exception of the fans who's probably doing a good job explaining the tidbits of the gameplay, character, plot and personality to newbie without spoiling the twist and turn, it's really tiring if you think about it so it would be nice to reward the minority that is carrying the conversation a point. I'm waiting for others opinion on this.
 
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Gengar84

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I don’t know if it’s possible to come up with some kind of system that ensures that everyone eventually gets the chance to talk about the characters they are passionate about. I like the nomination system but I’m not sure if there’s anything in place to prevent the same people from always getting picked. My one worry is that if a person has their character chosen, they have an advantage since they have more to share and talk about about that character, which would then give them more nominations for the next character.
 

SharkLord

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probably should, it's going to be a slow day when character like say Ayumi (which we're having a hard time now if we should pushback her day or not) who not many people can get to know her up until now with the exception of the fans who's probably doing a good job explaining the tidbits of the gameplay, character, plot and personality to newbie without spoiling the twist and turn, it's really tiring if you think about it so it would be nice to reward the minority that is carrying the conversation a point. I'm waiting for others opinion on this.
Hmm... I'll try that out after this round.

On a side note, I'm kinda surprised the current winning option for the poll is not pushing Ayumi back at all. Maybe it's because those in favor of pushing her back are split between a bunch of different options. I suppose people intend to go in asking some questions, but even then I feel like it'd be easier if everyone had some more time to get acquainted with the FDC games.
 

PeridotGX

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Hmm... I'll try that out after this round.

On a side note, I'm kinda surprised the current winning option for the poll is not pushing Ayumi back at all. Maybe it's because those in favor of pushing her back are split between a bunch of different options. I suppose people intend to go in asking some questions, but even then I feel like it'd be easier if everyone had some more time to get acquainted with the FDC games.
Most people want Ayumi delayed, the poll just has it split among multiple options
 

SharkLord

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Most people want Ayumi delayed, the poll just has it split among multiple options
Yeah, that's what it seemed like. No change was (Was being the keyword, apparently) the prevailing option on the poll, but everyone in favor of a delay was split up between different options.

Also pour one out for three weeks gang, they don't exist.
 

Gengar84

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Yeah, that's what it seemed like. No change was (Was being the keyword, apparently) the prevailing option on the poll, but everyone in favor of a delay was split up between different options.

Also pour one out for three weeks gang, they don't exist.
They do now. I felt bad nobody voted for three weeks so I had to give them something lol.

Honestly though I’m fine with anything because I wasn’t really planning on playing the games anyway 😊.
 
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Pacack

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I have very, very little knowledge of Reimu, so bear with me for my ignorance on this topic. What I can say is that the Tohou series has phenomenal music, and the bullet hell genre is one with no current representation in Smash Bros.

I have a couple of questions.

I know that some bullet hells make the enemies shoot out tons of projectiles, but make the player character rather tame in comparison. Is that the case with Reimu? Like, does she also shoot a ton of bullets at the enemy while she dodges?

If she does have those projectiles, I'm curious how one would go about designing a character like that which is both fun to play and fun to play against. I'm thinking about how Bayonetta was so faithfully executed in 4 that she wasn't fun to fight. I'm worried that something similar could happen to Reimu, and I'm not terribly sure how to balance her in a way that manages to represent bullet hells faithfully without being frustrating for other players to play against.

I'm not saying it can't be done, and I trust that Sakurai could probably do it if he put his mind to it, but I want to ask you all how you would approach that, since it's leaving me a bit stumped.
 
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ZelDan

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Noms:

Isaac (Golden Sun) = 10
Shovel Knight = 10

As for Reimu, I've never played Touhou so I can't really add much to the topic other than say the handful of music I've heard from the series is pretty dang good and It would be nice to see an indie character get actual playable status, so Reimu would be an acceptable inclusion to me.
 

Pillow

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2hu day is here. Haven't had a chance to catch up on the discussion yet but I wanted to chime in to remind everyone that Smash characters aim to invoke the feel of playing the game for the one playing the character, but not necessarily the one they're playing against. So while Reimu will probably be a Zoner, the biggest thing about bullet hell games is dodging bullets not shooting them. To that end, Reimu's kit should be more focused on being a very defensive nuisance that's hard to land hits on rather than the projectiles themselves.

On another note, I brought up in the general thread a while back that Reimu / all Touhou characters have a pretty inconsistent art direction with their appearances over many games. In general do you guys prefer the OG dumpy Zhun look, or something more modern an anime-esque?


Nominations:
Jace x10
 

chocolatejr9

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Can somebody explain to me Touhou lore? It's really complicated...

Nominations: Euden (Dragalia Lost) xMax
 

Commander_Alph

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In general do you guys prefer the OG dumpy Zhun look, or something more modern an anime-esque?
Depends, but I prefer ZUN art better even if it's not good just so that it's stay true to their origin and stop people for saying "what's this anime?" lol
 

SharkLord

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I have very, very little knowledge of Reimu, so bear with me for my ignorance on this topic. What I can say is that the Tohou series has phenomenal music, and the bullet hell genre is one with no current representation in Smash Bros.

I have a couple of questions.

I know that some bullet hells make the enemies shoot out tons of projectiles, but make the player character rather tame in comparison. Is that the case with Reimu? Like, does she also shoot a ton of bullets at the enemy while she dodges?

If she does have those projectiles, I'm curious how one would go about designing a character like that which is both fun to play and fun to play against. I'm thinking about how Bayonetta was so faithfully executed in 4 that she wasn't fun to fight. I'm worried that something similar could happen to Reimu, and I'm not terribly sure how to balance her in a way that manages to represent bullet hells faithfully without being frustrating for other players to play against.

I'm not saying it can't be done, and I trust that Sakurai could probably do it if he put his mind to it, but I want to ask you all how you would approach that, since it's leaving me a bit stumped.
You do get a lot of projectiles, but they're not in the crazy patterns as the bosses. Here's some gameplay to get an idea of how your attacks work compared to the opponents
That being said, Reimu has actually been a boss before, complete with the intricate patterns
Still, I'd imagine the bulk of Reimu's kit would be derived from her playable appearances, where it's basically just a continuous stream to whittle away at the opponent's health. I'd imagine it would work similarly to Fox's laser.
 

SharkLord

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Now's my turn, do you guys accept the idea of fan remix of the songs a guarantee or not? For me, even if it's too good to be true I actually want Sakurai's own composer team remix the majority of the OST which actually be really fun for us and for them.
That's a good question. Smash hasn't done fan remixes so far, but Touhou fanworks are a lot more important to the series than any series in Smash so far. Plus, Sephiroth gave us a 6+ minute song from a movie, so some notable Touhou covers like Night of Nights and Bad Apple don't seem entirely out of the question.
 

Rie Sonomura

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That's a good question. Smash hasn't done fan remixes so far, but Touhou fanworks are a lot more important to the series than any series in Smash so far. Plus, Sephiroth gave us a 6+ minute song from a movie, so some notable Touhou covers like Night of Nights and Bad Apple don't seem entirely out of the question.
LostWord, a mobile gacha uses Night of Nights soooooo
 
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