Character Competitive Impressions

[Emblem Lord]

That's dolphin jump, and it doesn't have a hitbox.
Dolphin Slash is 1-4 in the air IIRC.

Also marth's down tilt doesn't hit on the ledge easily.

whoops yeah you are right.

Marth doesnt need this anyway really. His run off edgeguard game is strong as is his trump guard options.

 

[Tagxy]

Yoshi seems above average in many regards but may not have anything particularly broken about him, but just having lots of options all the time I can see him being a strong threat and perhaps too easily tossed aside.

From what I tested, you need a sizable hitbox below the ledge. I think you either have to hit at the opponent's location right before he autosnaps or inbetween there and the ledge. Probably why teleporting recoveries are easier since they tend to be higher up with a predictable timing. Even a normal double jump to the ledge is still difficult to time.

So even grabbing the ledge with a jump is affected?

 

[PingPongCop]

so guys im struggling really bad. i know sonic and yoshi are both fanstastic characters. both are considered top tier and i cant decide for thelife of me who is a stronger character. i feel yoshi might struggle against shiek and fox and super rushdown charaxcters which a good majoirty of the other high tier characters are? how do you feel he does in those MUs? he has a strong moveset and options but im worried hes not as strong as people feel. then sonic i love but i feel he struggles agaisnt heavy zoning and he can get stage counter picked badly. he doesnt do well on stages with a ton of platforms and i think hes not as strong as people are saying he is. so completitvely speaking against other top tier characters who is stronger yoshi or sonic?

Yoshi would be better in my opinion. The only thing that he doesn't have that Sonic does is speed. And Yoshi's lack of speed doesn't make him bad against rushdown characters thanks to his eggs, Neutral Special, and grab range. Yoshi's got a projectile (a good one at that), stronger attacks, longer grab range, better recovery (in most cases), and generally kills alot faster than Sonic does.

Screw Sonic. Yoshi is the new Meta Knight

 

[Morbi]

Yoshi would be better in my opinion. The only thing that he doesn't have that Sonic does is speed. And Yoshi's lack of speed doesn't make him bad against rushdown characters thanks to his eggs, Neutral Special, and grab range. Yoshi's got a projectile (a good one at that), stronger attacks, longer grab range, better recovery (in most cases), and generally kills alot faster than Sonic does.

Screw Sonic. Yoshi is the new Meta Knight

Yoshi is nowhere near the new Meta Knight; for that, would he not need transcendent priority on most of his attacks? Yoshi is a great character, but it is debatable as to whether or not he is even the best. He has options, sure, but that does not miraculously make him broken.

 

[NairWizard]

Yoshi is nowhere near the new Meta Knight; for that, would he not need transcendent priority on most of his attacks?

Transcendent priority is not necessarily a good thing, because it means that your hitboxes can't get rid of projectiles. It was good for Meta Knight because he combined it with range and disjoint, a combination which Yoshi definitely doesn't have.

Yoshi would be better in my opinion. The only thing that he doesn't have that Sonic does is speed. And Yoshi's lack of speed doesn't make him bad against rushdown characters thanks to his eggs, Neutral Special, and grab range. Yoshi's got a projectile (a good one at that), stronger attacks, longer grab range, better recovery (in most cases), and generally kills alot faster than Sonic does.

Screw Sonic. Yoshi is the new Meta Knight

1) Low speed doesn't make you bad vs. rushdown characters. It makes you bad vs. characters who like to run away and camp you, such as Fox. Characters like Falcon don't really want to be camping you unless they have a huge lead.
2) Yoshi doesn't have low speed anyway. Yoshi's aerial mobility is far better than Sonic's, too.
3) Yoshi's longer grab range doesn't matter because his actual grab is worse.
4) Sonic's recovery is better for not getting hit, whereas Yoshi's is better for actually making it back to the stage.
5) Sonic has a kill throw, which, while relatively weak compared to other kill throws in the game, is still better than Yoshi's setups from throws (mostly because he can't grab as easily). Another miscellaneous advantage of being able to grab a lot is that pummels refresh stale moves, so the difference in KO power is negligible.

With all that said, I agree with you that Yoshi is better than Sonic, but not for most of these reasons.

Yoshi is really good overall, but he does have some weaknesses that you have to play with and against to realize. Try shielding a lot (but not hiding in shield) and see how your Yoshi matchup changes for your character. Shield doesn't shut down Yoshi, but I guarantee that you'll see the Yoshi do some pretty exploitable things to get around your shield.

Furthermore (lots of qualifications, but I want to get the facts clear): I think Yoshi has more potential than most characters not named Shulk in the roster, even with his weaknesses. He has an incredibly diverse toolkit, and I think it gets even better with customs.

 

[Nabbitnator]

For someone that asked who's up b has invincibility, Marth and Lucina Dolphin Slash is a true shoryuken in the air.

Frames 1-10 fully invincible.

Hitting them out of this will take a move with a huge hitbox and tons of active frames.

Just a question... is metaknights up b similar to theirs in invincibility?

 

[Lavani]

Just a question... is metaknights up b similar to theirs in invincibility?

MK's upB has no invincibility whatsoever, from what I've observed and tested with it.

 

[Nabbitnator]

Now I don't play olimar but I think this could factor into his match ups but are there any characters other than mk in which he can use up throw to kill all 3 pikmin at once do the same thing or something similar?

 

[Trifroze]

I think it will hurt Sheik less than other characters though because she has mix-up options offstage [kinda]. Rosalina, Megaman, Palutena, Falcon and Greninja are characters I can see getting wrecked by it though.

From someone who mains Falcon, his recovery is already really easy to challenge because grab armor doesn't exist anymore, so this really doesn't change that much, except for making spike timings easier to land on his recovery. However, at the same time, they will be easy to tech considering you know when it's going to hit and you're always right beside the stage. It's a little bit of free damage on Falcon, and the same goes for other characters. Don't expect this to be a free meteor KO on anyone decent.

Onto a different subject, I really want to know what's Yoshi's hardest matchup. Anyone got solid experience in high level play on this? I will have a very unenjoyable time playing this game if I can't find one considering basically 30% of Finland's scene use Yoshi.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Sheik is Yoshi's hardest match up by far.

 

[Trifroze]

What about Villager, Ness or Pikachu? I'd prefer not to pick a secondary/tertiary character with a lot of similar traits to Falcon.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Imo, Yoshi beats Villager, MIGHT beat Ness, but its close, and goes even with Pikachu.

 

[Vengeance_NS]

At this point I don't think yoshi has many bad mus.

 

[Kofu]

Imo, Yoshi beats Villager, MIGHT beat Ness, but its close, and goes even with Pikachu.

Yeah, Villager probably loses but I don't think it's too terrible. Both have less-than-optimal grabs and can kinda just sit in shield against the other one. Pocketing eggs is ineffective because from what I can tell Villager can't direct where he throws them (the trajectory might be influenced by how Yoshi throws them, not sure). Yoshi's mobility, faster ground options, and higher damage output give him the advantage (his jump armor is stupid too).

 

[Road Death Wheel]

yoshi from what i can see has some trouble whem people either can out camp him or neutralize his eggs.

so in the out camp category perhaps
falco
olimar
rosalina?
duck hunt

and in the neutralize area
samus
swordfighter
possibly pits?(doutbfull)
shiek

well only from my experience from tournys falco, samus, and shiek are for sure at least in my opinion.

 

[Vengeance_NS]

I think yoshi Beats every character on your list except Shiek. When he's getting camped he can plays a super lame egg tosses game with double jump angled eggs and bait an approach and punish. I'd love to see the Japanese yoshi vs our best Shiek to see how that mu works.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I think yoshi Beats every character on your list except Shiek. When he's getting camped he can plays a super lame egg tosses game with double jump angled eggs and bait an approach and punish. I'd love to see the Japanese yoshi vs our best Shiek to see how that mu works.

i falco and samus do have advantages i can speak for as little as they may be. mostly because samus charge shot 50% and up eats eggs ontop of going through them. rendering them basically a free punish or potential kill.
and falco well the mixture of lazers and down b just seems effective in my opinion and experience.
also on paper i think sword fighter definitly wins if he has the tornado projectile since it eats all projectiles but aura and charge shot. and its unclackable to. making its hit box continiue regarless of being hit.

 

[Ffamran]

Really late, but if Falco can reflect just when Yoshi throws his egg, well, it's funny and it does the combined total of damage. If Reflector works on Egg Roll, then Yoshi loses 2 good options. Thing is that Falco and Yoshi can match each other in jumps, but Falco's recovery is safer or perhaps more reliable.

Falco's grab is shorter, but is less awkward to use than Yoshi's. Also, Falco's combos using grabs are numerous. So, perhaps Falco has a better mix up and combo game - he'd be less predictable.

The issue is if Falco can get in because he's slower than Yoshi and has less range than him. Falco's main issue is range since while he can deal damage and has many moves with high knockback, if he can't land them, then it's meaningless.

Yoshi's advantages of speed, range, and weight would be troublesome for Falco. That's all I got. It's late, I should be asleep.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Yeah, Villager probably loses but I don't think it's too terrible. Both have less-than-optimal grabs and can kinda just sit in shield against the other one. Pocketing eggs is ineffective because from what I can tell Villager can't direct where he throws them (the trajectory might be influenced by how Yoshi throws them, not sure). Yoshi's mobility, faster ground options, and higher damage output give him the advantage (his jump armor is stupid too).

Yeah, its not awful, its like a 6-4 or +1 in Yoshi's favor imo. Villager is still super cheesy and can control space well enough to still make it a chore for Yoshi to get in, but overall, Yoshi's insane mobility and egg lay range outspaces and outpaces him.

 

[Jaxas]

I think yoshi Beats every character on your list except Shiek. When he's getting camped he can plays a super lame egg tosses game with double jump angled eggs and bait an approach and punish. I'd love to see the Japanese yoshi vs our best Shiek to see how that mu works.

Could I get the name of that Japanese Yoshi, or a link to some of his sets? I've heard a lot about them, but haven't seen much myself.

 

[RWB]

Yoshidora. The first clip I could find:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHNlCaiAvys

Much better, more recent clip:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_10kBx9rkE

 

[Player-3]

Yoshi has a stupid face thats his weakness

 

[Sinister Slush]

Don't think Yoshidora is the best example.

Also the first video is more recent, not the Ness vs Yoshi one.

 

[RWB]

Huh, didn't know that.

 

[Luco]

Shoutouts to @A2ZOMG for the first video hehe.

Ness can't be a counter to Yoshi, aside from the fact that the MU is actually about even (Yoshi forces us to approach and the command grab makes life kinda bleu, but we kill significantly earlier and have a potent combo game against him), those 2 characters are like, buddies yo. <3

 

[Vengeance_NS]

You guys act like all yoshi has is eggs. Yoshi has solids buttons in general and can work well in the neutral game. A lot of his moves have more priority then most characters and he wins most trades. Eggs is just the icing on top.

Also mii fighters I don't count until they are allowed at tourney. Once we allow them then I'll include them in MU charts.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

All this Yoshi hype....
Just throw out toon Link.

Inb4 sword fighter beats Yoshi.

 

[Vengeance_NS]

All this Yoshi hype....
Just throw out toon Link.

Inb4 sword fighter beats Yoshi.

Yoshi isn't over hyped I don't feel. He's def top 10 material early on for sure. The meta game will meats change as new stratigies are made and techniques are discovered. Yoshi just has a great tool set to deal with a ton of crap while creating s ton of problems for most of the cast. I don't see him having any mus worse than 6-4 and I don't think there will be many that are against him to be honest. He might go even with most characters or have a slight advantage but the bad MUs will be few and far between.

 

[Zelder]

Also mii fighters I don't count until they are allowed at tourney. Once we allow them then I'll include them in MU charts.

Wait, what tournaments are they not allowed at?

 

[Nobie]

For fighting Rosalina, which characters do you think are best at just straight up murdering Luma, either by knocking it off-stage or doing enough damage to make it pop?

 

[Sinister Slush]

Wait, what tournaments are they not allowed at?

Pretty much half the world.

 

[Thinkaman]

Pretty much half the world.

Pretending a character isn't in the game doesn't make it so. (This isn't directed at you of course.)

 

[HeavyLobster]

For fighting Rosalina, which characters do you think are best at just straight up murdering Luma, either by knocking it off-stage or doing enough damage to make it pop?

Ike and Ganon seem to stand out the most in terms of killing it quickly, though Ganon still has trouble vs Rosalina because she can frequently punish him for doing it and is really good at gimping his non-custom recovery.

 

[Gunla]

@ Vengeance_NS instead of double posting, please use the edit function to add onto the conversation when no one has replied after you.

 

[WolfieXVII ❂]

Mii Fighters shouldn't be banned >:/\
Mii Gunner is one character I spent alot of time on.
Shoot others probably have too

 

[Iron Kraken]

For fighting Rosalina, which characters do you think are best at just straight up murdering Luma, either by knocking it off-stage or doing enough damage to make it pop?

I find it somewhat funny that we still get so many questions specifically about how to beat Rosalina, and yet at the top level it seems like pretty much no one uses Rosalina.

Anyway... as far as the characters that most easily get rid of Luma, my picks are...

(Side-B), (jab, f-tilt), (jab, f-tilt), (jab, f-tilt), (big sword)

At least this is my experience, in maining the hell out of Rosalina. But despite the fact that those characters can get rid of Luma easily, I don't think Rosalina actually has a losing match up against any of them.

---

As far as goes. Yeah... his grab is a weakness. But it's a necessary weakness, because if he had a good grab he would be BROKEN. Literally everything else about Yoshi is so damn good. Amazing projectile, amazing neutral game, amazing aerial game, amazing dash attack, amazing jab, amazing smash attacks, amazingly ungimpable recovery, good weight, amazing overall ability to rack up damage, etc. etc. Pretty much every attack he has is good and useful, which you really can't say about any other character. Like, no one even talks about his down+B, but it's SO good in this game. Yes, an amateur who spams it will make it look bad, but in the right hands it's a great finishing move / shield breaker. It's surprisingly difficult to punish as well (again, when it's used correctly).

IMO the top 3 characters right now are are all so good but are being underutilized by pros (at least in the US) are , , & . Maybe it's because people don't like their play style, maybe it's because they're perceived as "cheap," or maybe it's because... I don't really know why. But I think they are all top 10 characters at a minimum, yet you don't see the US pros using them much. I see like 10 times more of than these 3 characters combined, and I swear that Falcon isn't nearly as good as any of those 3.

 

[Jabejazz]

Lucario really isn't that good. Decent, but nowhere near top 3.

Removal of vectoring means he can no longer keep his aura long enough to deal serious damage because of how stupidly early he dies. Sometimes his aura doesn't even have time to become an actual comeback factor for it to matter.

And well, without his aura, he's still absolute garbage, with pathetic damage and range. Luckily he has some sort of combo game, but he wishes he had Mario's damage, which is already pretty low.

 

[Iron Kraken]

Lucario really isn't that good. Decent, but nowhere near top 3.

Removal of vectoring means he can no longer keep his aura long enough to deal serious damage because of how stupidly early he dies. Sometimes his aura doesn't even have time to become an actual comeback factor for it to matter.

And well, without his aura, he's still absolute garbage, with pathetic damage and range. Luckily he has some sort of combo game, but he wishes he had Mario's damage, which is already pretty low.

I know all about Lucario's weaknesses, but I feel like his raw power can be so incredible that he's still a top 10 character despite some serious flaws. It's just that the things that make him good are so very different from the things that make other top characters good.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

My straight up thoughts on yoshi is that hes strongest in neutral and disadvantage but honestly he really sucks in advantage most of his moves reset to neutral and only has very specific moves that keep him in advantage. since to be fairly honest iv only ever been trully aware of his spike off stage but against characters with flexability off stage hes basically not in advantage when im off stage.
and while hes great in disadvantage hes still in disadvantage and can be capitalized on and punisned for attempts to reset.

 

[Shaya]

Lucario is pretty potent at 80%, you'll die 100% or less to the likes of Forward Smash and perhaps Side-B command grab (bair too but it's hard to land). Fresh or close to fully charged aurasphere can do the trick near the ledge at not much higher percent as well.

His range is shortish but his roll is long and fast. This meta isn't "dominated" by rolls, but it is one of the key tools used in neutral that Lucario has the speed and tools to outplay and restrict enemies from wanting to do it (because he punishes those very hard).

He isn't top 3, that's for sure. Top 10? Possibly/probably.

The character seems to live on the wire of getting to 80%ish and having your opponent at hopefully at least 50-60% (the higher they are, the better, obviously) while completely early stock white washes are pretty hard to come back from, but some matches these are common (Sheik).

Lucario has b-reverse aurasphere buffered roll as a landing tool which is pretty good (not diddy peanut cancel good, but good), dair for vertical stalling and a counter, not getting juggled or not being completely in a terrible position once rage + aura starts to ramp up is most of the "hard part" to Lucario. I can be 80% to their 0% and not really mind as long as I good grounding/stage control at that point.