Character Competitive Impressions

[Emblem Lord]

.....

This confuses me.

So..you need a renowned played to advance your characters meta?

 

[Tagxy]

lol.

In any case antis already advanced WFT metagame, though he hasnt entered anything yet. Kadaj uses her a lot too I think.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

.....

This confuses me.

So..you need a renowned played to advance your characters meta?

@Jabejazz and I got D3 on lock.

:v

Smooth Criminal

 

[NairWizard]

I'm trying to learn competitive play and I love Rosalina. She was my most wanted newcomer. I know she's considered to be good, but can anyone pinpoint her strong points and weak points that aren't as apparent to someone newer like me?

Rosalina is good at keeping characters out, walling with n-airs and spacing d-tilts and f-tilts when characters get near. Luma adds an extra layer of protection, so she can be frustrating for slow characters to fight against, since they not only have to get past her attacks, but they also have to get past Luma.

She is tall, floaty, and light, which means she has a lot of trouble getting out of disadvantage (especially when Luma is dead) and back to neutral.

Capitalize on her ability to avoid taking damage, and you will shine.

 

[RoseyBetch]

Rosalina is good at keeping characters out, walling with n-airs and spacing d-tilts and f-tilts when characters get near. Luma adds an extra layer of protection, so she can be frustrating for slow characters to fight against, since they not only have to get past her attacks, but they also have to get past Luma.

She is tall, floaty, and light, which means she has a lot of trouble getting out of disadvantage (especially when Luma is dead) and back to neutral.

Capitalize on her ability to avoid taking damage, and you will shine.

Okay, thank you! ^^ Mostly, I've been running away like a coward when Luma is dead, but I didn't realize what moves were good for defensive purposes.

 

[Ffamran]

.....

This confuses me.

So..you need a renowned played to advance your characters meta?

This reminds me of Dave Chappelle"s skit? on Ja Rule and celebrities and how people only want their opinions.

Anyway, any discussions on the DK, the dong expander himself? Oh, and what about Duck Hunt, Lucina, Marth, Robin, and Fox?

 

[Shaya]

DK is good. In Brawl he was kinda a monster that we thank our lord and saviour Dedede for keeping that demon off our backs.
I think his kill power got toned down a bit between Brawl and now, but he otherwise didn't seem to suffer nerfs (like the whole double landing lag business).

With customs he gets borderline broken moves that can single handedly shut down characters in many situations/positions (to an extent at which they're commonly brought up for excessive cheese/reasons customs are bad throughout the backstreets of communities).
Otherwise though, he takes a very firm resolve of patience and amazing reaction speed to be competitive with.

Fortunately there's no BS momentum breaking anymore either (everyone knows G&W, but it was DK who could not die to horizontal kill moves ever because of it) which made his weight obnoxious against so many characters. But he's still a heavy ******.

Fast small characters with great body sized hitboxes really give him a run for his money, especially without air dodging to land and his massive size. How well he handles a sizeable portion of the cast beating him 90:10 in neutral is just part of the experience. But he's the best heavy frame trapper by far, his advantageous positions are so disgusting and one-sided that you're glad he's extremely hard to use.

I would say these characters are the types to give him a hard time, yet they all still get juggled to death (on BATTLEFIELD) and die by getting punched in the **** (with some exceptions; particularly the ones without them and Pika/Tink)

 

[Hon Si Zi]

I really wonder what people think of Palutena. I thought the consensus was that she was awful, but her survivability and kill potential with Uair and Bair are really interesting.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I really wonder what people think of Palutena. I thought the consensus was that she was awful, but her survivability and kill potential with Uair and Bair are really interesting.

With the right specials (namely Super Speed, Jump Glide, and Lightweight) she's pretty good at rushdown. And I think Explosive Flame pierces shields on the last hit?

 

[Shaya]

She has a better down throw than Diddy.

shhhhhh
(I'd be pretty happy if they nerfed it though and buffed her elsewhere :D)

 

[Hon Si Zi]

With the right specials (namely Super Speed, Jump Glide, and Lightweight) she's pretty good at rushdown. And I think Explosive Flame pierces shields on the last hit?

I meant default. I thought that custom moves weren't in competitive tourneys.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I meant default. I thought that custom moves weren't in competitive tourneys.

The majority seem to be in favor of them, at least here on the forums. Where they're banned, it appears to be a matter of logistics, i.e. is it even feasible to have them all unlocked on all setups by then.

Someone who's more in touch with the scene than I am may be able to elaborate more but that's the impression I have.

 

[NairWizard]

I really wonder what people think of Palutena. I thought the consensus was that she was awful, but her survivability and kill potential with Uair and Bair are really interesting.

Default Palutena...

• escapes with ease from juggles and edgeguards due to Warp.
• KOs early due to multiple kill setups (not guaranteed): jab to f-smash, d-throw to up-air, [any move that launches vertically] to an up-air or up-smash read, and [any move that launches horizontally] to an invincible b-air
• out-projectile-camps everyone due to Reflect Barrier+Autoreticle. Autoreticle is only subpar because it needs to be subpar--if Palutena actually were to have a decent projectile (such as Fox laser or Pit arrows), she would be very OP, but as it stands there really isn't a projectile-based character who can just fire projectiles at Palutena for free
• stacks damage quickly due to d-throw and jab followups, with her grab having more reach than most other grabs and her jab having disjoint and speed

That's quite a (unique) list to recommend her! She's better than Bottom, Mid, and much of High Tier imo due to these qualities.

She isn't in Top Tier without customs though. *With* customs, she can trade in the ability to escape from juggles and edgeguards or the ability to outcamp projectile characters for better approaching options and easier KOs.

She's very good with customs, at the tippy top of Top Tier from what I can tell. There isn't a single matchup that she can't patch with a custom set--trouble with Fox? Equip Jump Glide, Super Speed, and Lightweight and approach through his lasers and KO him easily. Trouble with Duck Hunt? Equip Autoreticle, Reflect Barrier, and Celestial Firework and render his camping game useless. Trouble with Pikachu's edgeguarding? Equip Warp and don't worry about it. And so on. The range of her customs is so vast that it encompasses every possible character archetype and playstyle (Heavenly Light is useless, but every other move has at least niche use in a matchup). I also think that she's the best Doubles character for the same reason: she can shut down entire Doubles strats with the correct custom set.

I meant default. I thought that custom moves weren't in competitive tourneys.

They are in some. They had been legal on the 3DS in several regions, but on the Wii U there are logistics issues to be worked out yet.

 

[Starbound]

Default Palutena honestly surprised me after using Jump Glide, Lightweight and Super Speed. I lacked the ability to rush down into people but I gained perhaps the best defensive play in the game (I honestly don't think anyone could outcamp her given Reflect, Auto-reticle and Warp). The kill setups from Jab and DThrow still exist (obviously) and I think my only issue was that I had a tough time approaching (which I was honestly fine with as the moveset tends to force an approach given Auto-reticle's insane range)

She's definitely better with her customs to no one's surprise, but I don't think default Palutena is the bottom tier character we were anticipating her to be two months ago.

 

[Thinkaman]

@ A2ZOMG I just got 2nd in the first STL Smash 4 tourney to a Mario!

 

[A2ZOMG]

@ A2ZOMG I just got 2nd in the first STL Smash 4 tourney to a Mario!

I'm gonna be frank, that's not actually a lot of information.

 

[Browny]

@ Shaya

I might want to run my little community voted tier list thing again, but user blogs are gone.

Can I do it again on this forum?

I could ask you on FB, but then I wouldnt get that sweet, sweet +1 post count on swf

 

[Thinkaman]

I'm gonna be frank, that's not actually a lot of information.

All of us old school Brawl players got schooled by a new face playing Mario. (And Pit; he went Mario in WF and GF)

I went like 8 different characters, it was great. Character representation overall was pretty crazy, even for a Day 4 tourney.

 

[Shaya]

@ Shaya

I might want to run my little community voted tier list thing again, but user blogs are gone.

Can I do it again on this forum?

I could ask you on FB, but then I wouldnt get that sweet, sweet +1 post count on swf

Or (preferably) in PMs/VMs.

But for the moment? No.

Palutena without customs is at least mid tier imo, in that bracket of characters who wouldn't really lose to anyone but wouldn't beat many people very hard either.

 

[Trieste SP]

I'm curious. Who is the worst character in the game ?

 

[TTTTTsd]

That is probably the hardest question to answer and would require a lot of looking into.

By instinct I would say Olimar but I don't know what 1.0.4 did for him exactly. Otherwise, no idea. I don't like saying there's a "worst" in this game, given that pretty much everyone can do things.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

@ Shaya

I might want to run my little community voted tier list thing again, but user blogs are gone.

Can I do it again on this forum?

I could ask you on FB, but then I wouldnt get that sweet, sweet +1 post count on swf

PM+Google Survey?

I'm curious. Who is the worst character in the game ?

Dr Mario

 

[Trieste SP]

That is probably the hardest question to answer and would require a lot of looking into.

By instinct I would say Olimar but I don't know what 1.0.4 did for him exactly. Otherwise, no idea. I don't like saying there's a "worst" in this game, given that pretty much everyone can do things.

Well that's unfortunate . Regarding Olimar though, I don't necessarily think he is the worst after I saw this video.

PS : The Rosalina is some guy called Dabuz.

 

[TTTTTsd]

That video is why I hate using the word "worst" in this game because honestly it's
A) Early and really hard to tell and
B) There's no one that outright sucks to my knowledge.

Just play who you want for now, is all I can say.

 

[Trieste SP]

That video is why I hate using the word "worst" in this game because honestly it's
A) Early and really hard to tell and
B) There's no one that outright sucks to my knowledge.

Just play who you want for now, is all I can say.

Alright, thanks a lot. I'll look into it.

 

[X3I]

That's way too simplistic a way to think about it. There's getting to an actionable state, physically inputting the punish (input time), the move's startup, and the time it takes to get close enough into consideration. Also you can't necessarily tell someone is rolling from the first frame, so the first frame that confirms that a roll is occurring matters as well. All these things add up.

And of course you should know that that figure is based on non-choice-based reaction, right? You'd have to be standing still and completely focused on watching for the roll spark for your model to be even remotely tied to reality.

So it comes as no surprise to me that in Soul Calbur 5, nobody can block a perfect Yoshimitsu iFC3K (i22 if done perfectly) on reaction (yes this includes their top players), even though the first few frames are a tell (you have to crouch first and then press down-forward kick). And blocking low only takes one frame. There are tons of other lows in the game that are between i15 and i20 and are "unreactable" as well, and it's a running joke in the community to claim you can block them, since it's a classic noob mistake to overestimate one's reaction time.

This "Average human time is 15 frames" figure would have you believe that you can block standard i15 low kicks on reaction. Hah!


Of course, there's still enough time to punish rolls that end up very close to you. What, you dash grabbed someone who rolled, and you started dashing after they started rolling? They probably were just shielding, you didn't get the punish, you just guessed right on the mixup. To really beat rolls that aren't landing right next to you, you need to be consciously covering that option,among others, if your character can, and be in position to punish.

There's more to it than "lol my score on http://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime is below .500s/30f."


That has nothing to do with reaction time.

When you know Umehara Daigo is able to punish a Guile's 2MK in Street Fighter 2X, you don't give any credit to what you just said.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

When you know Umehara Daigo is able to punish a Guile's 2MK in Street Fighter 2X, you don't give any credit to what you just said.

Are you talkinga bout footsies in fighters? LOL Where to ****ing start

I mean, what do you want to talk about first, the multitude of additional options in smash footsies that have to be accounted for, or the fact that footsie punishes in fighters are never raw reactions to begin with?

Smash "footsies" (if they can even be called that, different debate though) are completely different from fighter footsies, especially street fighter. There are a ton of comparisons we can draw from fighting games but talking about reacting to Guile's 2MK is a waste of time.

 

[Nocally]

Who knew that a character with arching projectiles could hit over Luma?

 

[Wii Fit Bae]

Due to wii fit trainers low crouch I feel that she makes a lot of match ups easier especially Zero Suit Samus. Diddy Kong isn't even a bad match up. I'm hoping that more people actually play the character and go to tournaments.

Anyways heres wobbles vs typo
http://youtu.be/wb2NU4plZN4

 

[meleebrawler]

That video is why I hate using the word "worst" in this game because honestly it's
A) Early and really hard to tell and
B) There's no one that outright sucks to my knowledge.

Just play who you want for now, is all I can say.

Just by watching the video, you can tell that pikmin are a lot more reliable now.

He only had to whistle after throwing them, instead of every sudden movement.

 

[Browny]

Vote on my thread plz

http://smashboards.com/threads/the-...st-its-back-vote-period-25th-27th-nov.379736/

Seriously though, my community voted tier list thread for brawl was really popular and went for over a year (I think), it had over 1000 votes cast. I want to recreate that success.

If you want to help create a very democratic tier list and have a bit of fun, please join in. A few votes every few days can have a real impact if you strongly believe certain characters should be higher or lower.

 

[X3I]

Are you talkinga bout footsies in fighters? LOL Where to ****ing start

I mean, what do you want to talk about first, the multitude of additional options in smash footsies that have to be accounted for, or the fact that footsie punishes in fighters are never raw reactions to begin with?

Smash "footsies" (if they can even be called that, different debate though) are completely different from fighter footsies, especially street fighter. There are a ton of comparisons we can draw from fighting games but talking about reacting to Guile's 2MK is a waste of time.

Geez, the more I read your posts, the more I think you just pretend knowing this game while you actually don't. No footsies ? Ahah xD

This is the problem with the Smash community. There isn't the same professional approach as there is in the other fighting games... While really, it´s the same.

Basically, people just play offensively but suck at defense, and generally have no game plan. Attacking is a mistake, as it is in other fighting games.

And that´s the case for most "top players", such as ZeRo who's bad in Smash 4. Pretty sure I can beat him with ease.

Much hate is coming~

 

[Luco]

Well then.

I was about to make a long-winded post but I really don't have time, but simply put your argument is very flawed...

Top players aren't top players because they mash buttons. A game plan is required, one that tests the strengths and weaknesses of your character and pushes them to the limit. Of course anyone can press buttons. A top player presses buttons in the correct way according to the situation.

lol.

 

[X3I]

Well then.

I was about to make a long-winded post but I really don't have time, but simply put your argument is very flawed...

Top players aren't top players because they mash buttons. A game plan is required, one that tests the strengths and weaknesses of your character and pushes them to the limit. Of course anyone can press buttons. A top player presses buttons in the correct way according to the situation.

lol.

You just have to watch a match of Zero, Dabuz, or Nakat, and count the number of mistakes they make in Smash 4.

Now try to do the same with M2K or ESAM in Brawl, Mango or Armada in Melee, or Daigo in orher fighting games.

People suck in Smash 4, really. Obviously, it will get better with time. But for now, there is literally no thoughts even from top players.

 

[Trifroze]

This isn't comparable to traditional fighting games because rushdown works so much better due to the fairly unlimited control you have over your character. Traditional 2D fighting games have very strict dashes and jumping angles that limit your approach options, and they have combos which make every mistake (and thus every risk) that much bigger. Give Akuma a fast divekick in SF4 and he still doesn't have the options that all Smash characters have against almost every matchup.

Of course people "suck" at Smash 4. It was released two months ago for an unergonomical handheld and only a few days ago for a system that does the game any justice, and only in the US.

 

[X3I]

The fact it's a new game doesn't explain why players lost their basics ans their approach.

Geez, I can't believe I have read there is no real footsies in Smash...

 

[Trifroze]

There isn't, there's only static priority or clashing. No one will play "footsies" when you know every attack the opponent throws at you has a disjointed hitbox or just outpriorizes your moves or vice-versa. Instead you wait for an opening and then attack yourself. Maybe you'll see someone grab another player out of an attack when the grab wouldn't have reached otherwise, but the community has different names for those things.

 

[SharpMcHappy]

The fact it's a new game doesn't explain why players lost their basics ans their approach.

Geez, I can't believe I have read there is no real footsies in Smash...

The game is pretty new, I don't think you should judge it so quickly. Eventually the good players will become great, so I'd say that you wait a few months and there will be Smash 4 players with extreme skill and knowledge of the game.

 

[Browny]

You just have to watch a match of Zero, Dabuz, or Nakat, and count the number of mistakes they make in Smash 4.

Now try to do the same with M2K or ESAM in Brawl, Mango or Armada in Melee, or Daigo in orher fighting games.

People suck in Smash 4, really. Obviously, it will get better with time. But for now, there is literally no thoughts even from top players.

Mango makes lots of mistakes lol, his optimal punishes just outnumber the mistakes heavily.

Its a contrast to like... every other pro in melee who never make mistakes, but dont always get the optimal punish every time.

 

[Pazzo.]

Geez, the more I read your posts, the more I think you just pretend knowing this game while you actually don't. No footsies ? Ahah xD

This is the problem with the Smash community. There isn't the same professional approach as there is in the other fighting games... While really, it´s the same.

Basically, people just play offensively but suck at defense, and generally have no game plan. Attacking is a mistake, as it is in other fighting games.

And that´s the case for most "top players", such as ZeRo who's bad in Smash 4. Pretty sure I can beat him with ease.

Much hate is coming~

I see your main is Mr. G&W. Most players see him as weak, but I see potential. What do you see that makes you use him as a main?