Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[Spinosaurus]

Mewtwo is in a pretty good spot now. I don't know where stands exactly, but I doubt he's not an actual threat anymore. The landing lag reduction he's got across all aerials on top of the hitbox changes made this character's punish game legitimately scary especially with this damage output now. The "cannon" in glass cannon is actually true.

I don't see it mentioned much but lesser recoil on Shadow Ball makes it really good to use in the air now. It's a game changer imo.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Mewtwo is in a pretty good spot now. I don't know where stands exactly, but I doubt he's not an actual threat anymore. The landing lag reduction he's got across all aerials made this character's punish game legitimately scary especially with this damage output now. The "cannon" in glass cannon makes sense now.

I don't see it mentioned much but lesser recoil on Shadow Ball makes it really good to use in the air now. It's a game changer imo.

Although recovering with Shadow Ball is no longer possible, being able to use SB in the air without flying across the screen is REALLY helpful, especially with the larger hitbox, and Mewtwo didn't need that finicky method of recovering imo due to his second jump, Confusion lifting him a bit ala Egg Toss/Cape, and Teleport's decent range

 

[williamsga555]

Mewtwo's fixed fair scares me.

 

[bc1910]

Thanks, will add this stuff to the list

-Second Yoshi Nat top 8
-First R.O.B top 8 in a National that I'm aware of.
-First Greninja Top 8 in a National that I'm aware of.

istudying has reached top 8 with Greninja at multiple Netherlands nationals.

He's come 1st before, and also 2nd losing only to Mr.R.

 

[Mr-R]

Basically what im saying is everything Pika does in neutral confronations involves risk. More risk then what Ryu is doing in general. And with no clean kill confirms Ryu is going to consistently be super angry and Pika doesnt like that. For the record I think the match is even.

And Ryu def doesnt lose to Mario. And False just beat 6wx. Ryu vs Sonic. Another match I feel is even.

I think Mr.R might just be a lil disillusioned about Ryu. Then again he did say his opinion was controversial.

I'm glad name searching is still a thing on SWF. So why are you basing matchups off of sets between top players. ''Dj jack beat esam!? mu is def not in pika's favor! '' ' '''False just beat 6wx'' that must mean the sonic match up isn' that bad!

Now let me ask you the following. Why are you only using examples that work out in your favor. You're only mentioning ryu's wins but what about trela losing to a local yoshi in texas or him losing to a peach in losers bracker of MLG, or even losing 3 games straight to 6wx' sonic. 9b's ryu also lost to a pikachu player in pools. You get the point

Zero's diddy beats pretty much every sheik main. Is the match up in diddy's favor? absolutely not, it doesn't work like that.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I'm showing there is enough evidence to come to a conclusion that he doesnt flat out lose.

Generally tho I dont use specific bouts between players to illustrate points. Anyone that has seen me post can attest to that.

BTW i didnt mention yoshi but i def think Ryu loses that match. I think he loses to Yoshi, ZSS, Sheik, DK, annnnnnnnnnnnd probably MK. Also Rosalina. Def Megaman and Pac-man. Oh and Diddy too. And despite Venom beating on Tweeks Cloud, I think he loses to Cloud too.

I mostly look at neutral. How do these chars tools interact. I do not see how pikas tools inhibit him from playing neutral and vice versa. Which is why I called it even.

 

[Blobface]

Ganondorf has a strong punish game but gets bodied in most other respects. He has to work hard to win neutral and most of his viable options have the "you have to hit them first" disclaimer tethered to them. He's great if he can connect, but you can't rely on hard reads to carry you every time. Cloud is faster, safer, has disjoints out his ears and has at least four trump cards with Limit Break, he should run rings around him (no hate Ganon mains, you know I love you).

Most are in agreement that ZSS and MK have the best punish games in the roster. Both just need to win neutral once to potentially end your stock (factoring in rage, DI and all those other nice things, you're still going to take a ton of damage and have a higher chance of being bodied than you do with other characters).

Cloud vs Ganon definitely isn't in Ganon's favor, though he doesn't lose by much. Neutral vs Cloud is as much a train wreck as one would expect, but Cloud gets trashed so hard offstage. Cloud will rarely survive past 70-80% due to how reliable Ganon's edgeguards are against him.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Mewtwo's fixed fair scares me.

As well it should.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_QlUYgb1K0

As for Larry losing to Void, that wasn't too surprising. They were training partners after all. Plus, last PR season, Larry was 1.5 and Void was 1. This time Larry is 2.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Controversy time.

No one beats Cloud in neutral.

Your move Smashboards.

Your move.

 

[Nu~]

Controversy time.

No one beats Cloud in neutral.

Your move Smashboards.

Your move.

No rebuttal

Just a question

...why?

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Controversy time.

No one beats Cloud in neutral.

Your move Smashboards.

Your move.

Look at the size of the boulders on THIS guy.

Explain, EL. Goes without saying that I respect you, as I feel like you're one of the few people around here that have a sorta OG mentality when it comes to FGs, but this is a huge ****ing stretch. Even for you.

I think a lot of characters (re: nearly everyone in the damn cast) have to RESPECT Cloud's neutral and on-stage presence, mind you.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Y2Kay]

Controversy time.

No one beats Cloud in neutral.

Your move Smashboards.

Your move.

Because...?

 

[Routa]

Controversy time.

No one beats Cloud in neutral.

Your move Smashboards.

Your move.

Mii Gunner perhaps?

 

[Emblem Lord]

Ol Spikey head always has an answer. Whether its counter-play, spaced pokes with his sword, playing runaway with limit charges and beams or movement based bait-and-punish thanks to his amazing mobility and dash dance.

He is never locked into playing ONE way. He is never without a response.

Offstage tho....

*snicker*

Get rekt blondie. Get ****ing rekt.

 

[Nu~]

Ol Spikey head always has an answer. Whether its counter-play, spaced pokes with his sword, playing runaway with limit charges and beams or movement based bait-and-punish thanks to his amazing mobility and dash dance.

He is never locked into playing ONE way. He is never without a response.

Offstage tho....

*snicker*

Get rekt blondie. Get ****ing rekt.

Not that I disagree, but can't the same be said for characters like the pits? All-arounders with tools for every option.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Not that I disagree, but can't the same be said for characters like the pits? All-arounders with tools for every option.

Not really. Pit's more focused on racking up damage and Cloud feels like a mix of that and pure strength

 

[Nu~]

Not really. Pit's more focused on racking up damage and Cloud feels like a mix of that and pure strength

But the question was directed towards emblem lord's statement that cloud never has to make his gameplay linear. He has an answer to every question in neutral.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

...why?

Explain, EL.

Because...?

Mii Gunner perhaps?

This is Bill: \/

Bill browses SWF on a daily basis. Sometimes Bill sees baseless posts that serve nothing constructive and thinks "wow this is really stupid".

He chooses to not respond and move on to more intelligent discussion.

Bill is smart.

Be like Bill.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

But the question was directed towards emblem lord's statement that cloud never has to make his gameplay linear. He has an answer to every question in neutral.

With Cloud, if someone tries playing spacies with me, I usually just Dtilt to knock em off their socks. Cloud's and Pit both have great tools, it's just that Cloud's are better in that regard

 

[wpwood]

Whether its counter-play, spaced pokes with his sword, playing runaway with limit charges and beams or movement based bait-and-punish thanks to his amazing mobility and dash dance.

He is never locked into playing ONE way. He is never without a response.

Maybe Fox. Reflect nullifies beam blade and LB camping can be shut down by lasers. Fox doesn't have to be rush down and can easily switch to laser camping if he wants. Also Fox could just chase cloud down if he wants to camp. His fast speed can can bait moves and allow him to punish. He also has relatively low cool down moves that require the player to be ready for it in order to punish.

I would say Palutena could possibly compete, even more so with a little better frame data. Again reflect nullifies beam blade camping and auto recital can stop limit charge. Bair beats any move that he were to throw out. If some how Palutena could bait an f-smash or if he just does his f-smash the start up is long enough to react with a counter and so are a few other moves. I think Palutena can probably edge guard Cloud better than most other characters; nair will semi-spike if she's hit out of it and that's a dead cloud. Nair will hit him out of LB up b as well given it's long lasting hit box. Palutena has options; it's just the speed of the options that make her lackluster. (Sakurai pls)

 

[Wintermelon43]

I'm glad name searching is still a thing on SWF. So why are you basing matchups off of sets between top players. ''Dj jack beat esam!? mu is def not in pika's favor! '' ' '''False just beat 6wx'' that must mean the sonic match up isn' that bad!

Now let me ask you the following. Why are you only using examples that work out in your favor. You're only mentioning ryu's wins but what about trela losing to a local yoshi in texas or him losing to a peach in losers bracker of MLG, or even losing 3 games straight to 6wx' sonic. 9b's ryu also lost to a pikachu player in pools. You get the point

Zero's diddy beats pretty much every sheik main. Is the match up in diddy's favor? absolutely not, it doesn't work like that.

Exactatly. Mikekirby beat Blue's Sonic before as Kirby, but yet it's still considered 35:65. Which is correct.

Also, I thought Seagull Joe was the only one that did the name searching thing. I guess I know how to get a top player's attention (some of them) now if I have a question LOL

 

[Sonicninja115]

Ol Spikey head always has an answer. Whether its counter-play, spaced pokes with his sword, playing runaway with limit charges and beams or movement based bait-and-punish thanks to his amazing mobility and dash dance.

He is never locked into playing ONE way. He is never without a response.

Offstage tho....

*snicker*

Get rekt blondie. Get ****ing rekt.

I have to agree. cloud has many options in neutral. his options are interesting, as most characters get a max of three neutral playstyles, while Cloud has tons. Limit charge. Standard B semi-keep away. aggressive. spacing. Defensive. and more. I guess it is sorta like little mac, but Cloud is better.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Maybe Fox. Reflect nullifies beam blade and LB camping can be shut down by lasers. Fox doesn't have to be rush down and can easily switch to laser camping if he wants. Also Fox could just chase cloud down if he wants to camp. His fast speed can can bait moves and allow him to punish. He also has relatively low cool down moves that require the player to be ready for it in order to punish.

I would say Palutena could possibly compete, even more so with a little better frame data. Again reflect nullifies beam blade camping and auto recital can stop limit charge. Bair beats any move that he were to throw out. If some how Palutena could bait an f-smash or if he just does his f-smash the start up is long enough to react with a counter and so are a few other moves. I think Palutena can probably edge guard Cloud better than most other characters; nair will semi-spike if she's hit out of it and that's a dead cloud. Nair will hit him out of LB up b as well given it's long lasting hit box. Palutena has options; it's just the speed of the options that make her lackluster. (Sakurai pls)

I'm curious to see how well a good Cloud would do against a good Palutena with Lightweight. Lightweight makes her a savage, but Cloud can really benefit off of the drawbacks

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Ol Spikey head always has an answer. Whether its counter-play, spaced pokes with his sword, playing runaway with limit charges and beams or movement based bait-and-punish thanks to his amazing mobility and dash dance.

He is never locked into playing ONE way. He is never without a response.

Offstage tho....

*snicker*

Get rekt blondie. Get ****ing rekt.

Every all around character has An answer to everything. Doesn't mean they don't get beat in neutral.

 

[Nu~]

This is Bill: \/

Bill browses SWF on a daily basis. Sometimes Bill sees baseless posts that serve nothing constructive and thinks "wow this is really stupid".

He chooses to not respond and move on to more intelligent discussion.

Bill is smart.

Be like Bill.

I'm just curious as to where this discussion will go.

I'm bound to get at least some insight from this discussion, right?

 

[SaltyKracka]

Every all around character has An answer to everything. Doesn't mean they don't get beat in neutral.

True, but it does mean that they don't automatically lose.

 

[wpwood]

I'm curious to see how well a good Cloud would do against a good Palutena with Lightweight. Lightweight makes her a savage, but Cloud can really benefit off of the drawbacks

Lightweight is unnecessary to beat cloud, and probably unnecessary for a lot of MUs. Just a few tweeks to Palutena's frame data and she's an amazing character. That's all that's holding her back. She has options for everything: reflector, projectile, counter, ledge cancel up b for movement, and an invincible aerial and dash attack. Better FAF and start ups would be "perfection."

The Cloud MU is just playing safe, reacting to punishable moves, and having your edge guards on point. Standard Palutena play and nothing too difficult about it. There's a few other things, but that's the basics.

 

[Sonicninja115]

I'm glad name searching is still a thing on SWF. So why are you basing matchups off of sets between top players. ''Dj jack beat esam!? mu is def not in pika's favor! '' ' '''False just beat 6wx'' that must mean the sonic match up isn' that bad!

Now let me ask you the following. Why are you only using examples that work out in your favor. You're only mentioning ryu's wins but what about trela losing to a local yoshi in texas or him losing to a peach in losers bracker of MLG, or even losing 3 games straight to 6wx' sonic. 9b's ryu also lost to a pikachu player in pools. You get the point

Zero's diddy beats pretty much every sheik main. Is the match up in diddy's favor? absolutely not, it doesn't work like that.

Isn't the Yoshi The Wall? I believe he is PR'ed second, behind Trela. No offense, just wondering.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

True, but it does mean that they don't automatically lose.

Very very true and honestly, it's very weird to discuss which characters has the best neutral when that burden is actually placed on the players.

 

[meleebrawler]

If there's one thing Cloud notably struggles with in neutral, it's strong zoning. He has LB Blade Beam as a trump card but otherwise he doesn't have many options against it. Characters like , , / and even have moves that block LB Blade Beam too (In fact I think Villager might be one of his worst top-tier matchups).

They may be less pronounced, but Cloud's Swordfighter weaknesses are still very much present: brawlers can still overwhelm him in close quarters with faster frame data (though getting in a position to do so isn't easy), and especially being prone to getting zoned out due to lacking proper responses to projectiles and only average mobility.

 

[Wintermelon43]

This is Bill: \/

Bill browses SWF on a daily basis. Sometimes Bill sees baseless posts that serve nothing constructive and thinks "wow this is really stupid".

He chooses to not respond and move on to more intelligent discussion.

Bill is smart.

Be like Bill.

But one day, while on the internet, Bill got hungry. He saw a ton of donuts next to him, started eating them, and said on SWF "Mhm, these are some yummy donuts". Then Reggie ran into the room and screamed Bill, Bill, BILL?????????!!!!!!!!!

 

[Emblem Lord]

Every all around character has An answer to everything. Doesn't mean they don't get beat in neutral.

In those situations you beat the player, not the character.

 

[san.]

I think Cloud has to commit too much on his ground attacks. He needs to be careful when he even wants to jab due to the low %, very poor FAF, and tendency for people to fall out of jab1 or 2 when he has rage.

Cloud has amazing dash specs on the ground and top 5 fox trots at least (discounting speed), but outside of grab, I'm not sure if Cloud wants to throw out any attacks unless he's quite sure of his punish. Maybe cross slash sometimes? Even Cloud's grab is pretty punishable compared to some of the faster characters'.

This even hurts Cloud's autocancels since there's nothing he can just throw out very easily when he wants once he lands.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

In those situations you beat the player, not the character.

That's why it's hard to talk about which character has the best neutral for me. We can say character A has a better neutral than character B, but it don't matter if the player can't handle a certain button well. I appreciate the response and that's my thoughts on pretty much every character.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Oh yeah someone mentioned the Pits.

I feel the same about them. Really damn solid in neutral. But neutral is not and never was their issue.

Also neutral is not hard to define. Can this char easily be boxed in or invalidated? Does this char have many answers to various styles of play? Is this char linear or dynamic? Compare Ganon to Sheik. What makes his neutral poor and why is she the queen of neutral?

Don't make it harder then it needs to be.

 

[Big-Cat]

I think Cloud has to commit too much on his ground attacks. He needs to be careful when he even wants to jab due to the low %, very poor FAF, and tendency for people to fall out of jab1 or 2 when he has rage.

Cloud has amazing dash specs on the ground and top 5 fox trots at least (discounting speed), but outside of grab, I'm not sure if Cloud wants to throw out any attacks unless he's quite sure of his punish. Maybe cross slash sometimes? Even Cloud's grab is pretty punishable compared to some of the faster characters'.

This even hurts Cloud's autocancels since there's nothing he can just throw out very easily when he wants once he lands.

This is why I believe Bowser has the advantage against Cloud. One whiff and he's Bowser's breakfast.

Also, I won another tournament with Bowser. Is he high tier now?

 

[Wintropy]

Not really. Pit's more focused on racking up damage and Cloud feels like a mix of that and pure strength

I see where you're coming from, but Pit's not really focused on doing damage, per se. He's more focused on playing a patient neutral game until he finds a good opening, converting that to advantage and then, depending on the nature of the game at that stage, converting that advantage to a kill.

If you mean Pit can't commit to a kill in neutral, then you're mostly right: his two strongest smashes (f-smash and u-smash) have good kill potential, and while they're strong and have good startup (f10 and f6 respectively), the cooldown means they can't be reliably thrown out without a read or an opening that they won't get punished for. F-tilt can used as a kill move for Pit and b-air for both, but only if it's spaced well, as only the sweetspot at the tip will kill. Side-b (especially Dark Pit's) is a very good kill option and has more versatility in neutral than most "hard read" kill options, but it's still easy to punish on shield or dodge. D-throw -> u-smash stops working at about 20% and b-air is not guaranteed out of any throw at kill percents, so he has no kill confirms out of grab combos - though he can still kill with f-throw at the edge at higher percents and / or with high rage.

Pit's not playing neutral to go for the hard read kill confirm, he's playing neutral to get you into a position where he can play on his own terms. If that's what you mean by "focused on racking up damage", then you're right, he's a patient character who will play to his strengths instead of trying to force the kill. Patience and intellect over brute force and ignorance!

Oh yeah someone mentioned the Pits.

I feel the same about them. Really damn solid in neutral. But neutral is not and never was their issue.

This. This guy gets it.

 

[Emblem Lord]

See guys...yall be spittin hate at me for posting things without clarification...but NO ONE gets this thread bumping like EL when I post something wild.

You're welcome

 

[TTTTTsd]

I am aware of the weaknesses of Cloud's ground game, but I find his air-to-ground game strong enough to very clearly make up for it. You don't always have to autocancel Nair, honestly. It has 15f of landing lag, which is 1 more frame than Ike's, and it covers distance almost equal to it. It's very strong in this regard.

I also don't believe he loses to or beats Bowser that badly. Yes if he messes up he dies, but if Bowser is hit upwards he is not touching the ground until he has received enough damage to die to a Limit move, Cloud's movement speed and juggle game make this easy to accomplish.

The minute Cloud hits Limit is when his neutral game improves significantly, btw. He stops having to camp because his jump height becomes stupidly low and his autocancels remain. This TIGHTENS his already amazing air to ground game and ADDITIONALLY it gives him the mobility to whiff punish legitimately anything. While I agree his ground game is only "suitable" and not amazing, his air game transitions into it very smoothly, and moves like Dtilt and Dash Attack are very solid in their own right.

My PSA is: Don't be afraid to incur landing lag with Cloud's aerials, for the most part (outside of Dair) it's not that bad, really. And remember, when in Limit mode, dance around your prey because you can capitalize off of a single opening and it is BEAUTIFUL.

Oh also Big-Cat while I wouldn't say Bowser is high tier, I think he's close. You have to apply legitimate counterplay and learn the matchup now, so prey on the people who don't = ). Even when they have learned the matchup, I believe Bowser's strengths are solid enough to win, don't get me wrong, but people are dropping to him because they underrate just what a great throw game does for him. He now has a combo throw kill setup and two different kill throws that start working around when the U-Throw > Uair combo ends up missing, this is fantastic for him. Charcter couldn't have asked for anything more, people didn't take Bowser seriously for the longest time so now they have to, it's pretty great.

 

[Mario766]

This is why I believe Bowser has the advantage against Cloud. One whiff and he's Bowser's breakfast.

Also, I won another tournament with Bowser. Is he high tier now?

One whiff? One whiff of what? Cloud isn't gonna give you openings because if he doesn't have limit break he's gonna be charging it via his unpunishable charge option, and if you try to punish him for it you're leaving yourself open for a counter.

Then you get up-aired and realize what a horrible mistake you just made. Bowser is NEVER hitting the ground in the MU once you're up, better just pray you can get to the ledge or something.

Bowser isn't high tier, with all his issues still a combo/kill option out of a throw doesn't change those facts. He's mid tier max.