Character Balancing

[kook321]

i just hope that improve the lower tier characters from melee and leave the rest

 

[Itakio]

I never said what the tiers are meant for

Then what does "the only reason tiers exist is competitive opinions" mean?

And therein lies both the problem and my point. These people-the people who only obey tiers-can potentially switch mains around like crazy, rather than take a character that genuinely interests them and bringing out the best of that character.

Like I said, if you are in the professional scene, there should be no shame in using what you can to win. That said, why is there a problem with people using high tier characters? If it's easier to do good with high tier characters, I see no reason that they should not be used. It's this mindset that puts high tier characters in the hands of many. I believe what you're imagining is only an illusion of blind obeying-ness.

I am fully aware of her strengths and weaknesses, and I am fully aware that there are characters who are faster, easier to combo with, and more powerful. I don't care; if Samus ended up at the bottom of the Brawl tiers (realistically that ain't happening, but you get my point) I'd still main her.

Why?

They should win tournaments under their own strengths, not the strengths of a character.

You can choose your character in a tournament, so I'd say not picking which character you are most likely to win with would be foolish. Also, since you can pick your character, the initial decision on which character should be on which one has the most strengths.

As it stands in Melee, the four "best characters" easily stand out as "the best", and we all know why.

How can you call them the best characters when you said that there is no such thing as a best character?

 

[MookieRah]

There is so much misinformation about certain characters' buffs and nerfs in this thread that there is no way I could address them all. For starters, Peach is better in Brawl than she is in melee. All I hear is about her downsmash nerf, but nothing about her speed buff, her ability to catch items while attacking, or how she still has DJC and float canceling. Peach will be a BEAST.

Also, I don't believe for a second (well, namely for the reason that Peach is obviously really good) that the game will ship and on the basic level have no obvious imbalances. The fact that they could easily gauge the top characters from just the demo is enough info for me to conclude that it isn't going to happen.

 

[Yaya]

There is so much misinformation about certain characters' buffs and nerfs in this thread that there is no way I could address them all. For starters, Peach is better in Brawl than she is in melee. All I hear is about her downsmash nerf, but nothing about her speed buff, her ability to catch items while attacking, or how she still has DJC and float canceling. Peach will be a BEAST.

Also, I don't believe for a second (well, namely for the reason that Peach is obviously really good) that the game will ship and on the basic level have no obvious imbalances. The fact that they could easily gauge the top characters from just the demo is enough info for me to conclude that it isn't going to happen.

Thank-you for that Mookie, that's one of the points I was trying to get across, is that WHY would they nerf Peach's downsmash and buff the rest of her? From what I can see there's no reason to fix it if it ain't "broken", and if it IS "broken", don't replace it by making every ELSE "broken". It's a lot like they changed peach for changes sake.


(Aargh, I'm sorry, that's by A6M Zero)

 

[Psydon]

Thank-you for that Mookie, that's one of the points I was trying to get across, is that WHY would they nerf Peach's downsmash and buff the rest of her? From what I can see there's no reason to fix it if it ain't "broken", and if it IS "broken", don't replace it by making every ELSE "broken". It's a lot like they changed peach for changes sake.


(Aargh, I'm sorry, that's by A6M Zero)

This is where I agree with whoever said that they overreacted. After seeing how powerful Peach's D-smash is, they probably thought: "But we need to compensate for all the Peach players out there!" and so buffed everything else. Same thing with Kirby for Melee. They saw he was overpowered in the original and so thought it was a great idea to make him horrendous.

Like I've said before, they need to really take a look at what they're doing and ask themselves: "How is this going to affect the game?"

There is so much misinformation about certain characters' buffs and nerfs in this thread that there is no way I could address them all. For starters, Peach is better in Brawl than she is in melee. All I hear is about her downsmash nerf, but nothing about her speed buff, her ability to catch items while attacking, or how she still has DJC and float canceling. Peach will be a BEAST.

Also, I don't believe for a second (well, namely for the reason that Peach is obviously really good) that the game will ship and on the basic level have no obvious imbalances. The fact that they could easily gauge the top characters from just the demo is enough info for me to conclude that it isn't going to happen.

1. Of course it's not gonna happen. There are going to be obviously overpowered characters in Brawl and there are going to be grossly underpowered characters in Brawl. Everybody on this board already knows that, but we can still hope. Even if it's a fool's hope.

2. See? Nobody reads me anymore. ><

Then what does "the only reason tiers exist is competitive opinions" mean?

1. They exist out of competitive opinion but in the eyes of those who make them they are only supposed to be a general analysis, not a direct statement of "[Character] is better than [chatacter]." That stuff comes from people who adhere to tiers the way they do.

Like I said, if you are in the professional scene, there should be no shame in using what you can to win. That said, why is there a problem with people using high tier characters? If it's easier to do good with high tier characters, I see no reason that they should not be used. It's this mindset that puts high tier characters in the hands of many. I believe what you're imagining is only an illusion of blind obeying-ness.

2. Already addressed in my last post. Moving on.

Why?

3. 'Cause I like her. ^^

You can choose your character in a tournament, so I'd say not picking which character you are most likely to win with would be foolish. Also, since you can pick your character, the initial decision on which character should be on which one has the most strengths.

4. Already addressed in my last post. Moving on.

How can you call them the best characters when you said that there is no such thing as a best character?

5. I put "best" and "character(s)" in quotations, and I did so for a reason.

 

[Itakio]

1. They exist out of competitive opinion but in the eyes of those who make them they are only supposed to be a general analysis, not a direct statement of "[Character] is better than [chatacter]." That stuff comes from people who adhere to tiers the way they do.

Point taken, there is a problem there, I'll agree. There are too many people that don't know what the tier list is truly meant to show. I didn't see what you were trying to say at first.

I guess my point is that you shouldn't look down on people who are using the best characters just because you don't think they've explored the game enough. There should be no shame in doing what ever it takes to win in a tournament match (I'm only looking at in-game stuff here XP not kicking your opponent's shins).

2. Already addressed in my last post. Moving on.

I don't know what attitude you are talking about.

3. 'Cause I like her. ^^

Err, I guess what I meant to say is that I didn't understand why you told me about Samus.

You can choose your character in a tournament, so I'd say not picking which character you are most likely to win with would be foolish. Also, since you can pick your character, the initial decision on which character should be on which one has the most strengths.

4. Already addressed in my last post. Moving on.

I don't think it was, or at least, not as much I think is adequate.
Look at the top players that play/played Melee, most of them use/used high tier characters to win tournaments (obviously, since that's what tiers show). You don't hear as many stories about low tier mains winning tournaments. I think it's okay to conclude that some characters are better for winning tournaments, or just "better" characters. I also don't think the people winning a whole bunch of tournament matches as Fox means that the were blindly obeying the tier list. I use Marth mostly and Fox, but even in between I always use other characters when I'm just messing around, but I always end up winning the most with Marth or Fox.

5. I put "best" and "character(s)" in quotations, and I did so for a reason.

I don't know why, care to explain?

Edit: Actually, I don't think I can keep this up, so I guess you win. It's sort of frustrating to type something different out only to be told it was "already addressed." Maybe it's just me, though.

 

[A6M Zero]

It looks like for the most part the discussion ABOUT Character Balancing itself has been discussed for the limit right now, I'd like to open up the table to something on the same topic.

What sort of individual character balances and changes made to individual characters? What in your mind would help even the playing field for the confirmed characters so far?

 

[MookieRah]

I *don't* think this was addressed, but if it was I'm sorry to bring it back up. I have only skimmed through this thread for the most part.

One thing that I think we all (myself included) need to remember is that this is supposed to be a different game.

Why can't people realize that this is a sequel? It is a new, but due to it's nature it shouldn't be drastically different. There isn't anything wrong with people feeling bad about how Fox getting anal ***** by the nerf bat and new game mechanics (in this case slower fall speeds and mega recoveries), cause if you think about EVERY other game series the returning characters tend to play, for the most part, the same as they did in the old games.

Secondly, the tier list represents the current metagame. That is what they do. In the beginning they bounce back and forth as new discoveries take place, but late in the game's career they get relatively static. For the positions that truly matter in competition (the top 10 or so characters), the melee tier list is a very accurate list of what characters are just plain better. Pretty much everything to the characters have been discovered and they have been in the upper echelon for a long long time. Please guys, learn to understand this very basic concept and move on.

 

[Psydon]

It looks like for the most part the discussion ABOUT Character Balancing itself has been discussed for the limit right now, I'd like to open up the table to something on the same topic.

What sort of individual character balances and changes made to individual characters? What in your mind would help even the playing field for the confirmed characters so far?

Mario - Nothing. Buffs are nice but he didn't need them. He was fine as he was in Melee.

Edit: Well, they should improve his fair...and they did. ^_^

Link - Movement speed and attack speed. No question. Also, he should be given a better f-tilt, although a lot more speed would vastly improve it anyway. Oh, wait, he already received that. ^_^

Kirby - Do I really need to tell you this?

Pikachu - I'm really not sure. However, if you take the demo into account, they should fix his D-smash and give his Down+B its delay again.

Fox - Remove the Shine (note: I said the Shine, not the Reflector) and make his U-smash and uair weaker. Well, at least they already did the latter. And the nerf to his blaster was a nice bonus. ^_^

Samus - Certainly they shouldn't have nerfed her projectiles and screwed around with her bomb jump...and I think they should've increased her movement speed a little...she doesn't really need anything in my opinion, although the buffs she got to all of her other moves are great. ^^ I can't say anything about ZS Samus.

Zelda - Uhhhhhh...nerf Sheik?

Bowser - Seeing as he already got a speed buff amongst other things, I don't think anything needs to be said about him.

DK - No comment.

Yoshi - No comment.

Peach - Remove the Brawl buffs. Her only issue in Melee was her D-smash and they've taken care of that.

Ice Climbers - Let the Up+B do something even if you only have one IC. Even half the distance of the normal Up+B would be fine.

Pit - No comment.

Wario - This has nothing to do with his gameplay, as I can't comment on his gameplay, but they should take off that disgusting WW outfit and give him his original clothes. At least in that outfit he has some dignity.

Ike - Either give him a massive speed buff, or give him some other attributes/abilities that will allow him to work around his lack of speed.

PT - No comment.

Diddy - No comment.

Metaknight - Give him a little more power. I understand that they're trying to make him as not like Marth as possible, but just a little more power, in his Smash attacks if nothing else, isn't gonna make him broken.

Snake - No comment, and from what I've seen, no need. He looks pretty impressive.

Lucas - If he plays anything like Ness...I'm not sure. There was a time I could've told you this but I haven't played as Ness (in Smash, anyway) in years.

Sonic - Whatever power he may have, take it out. That includes his spiking dair. We all know the dangers of spiking dairs with fast characters.

King Dedede - No comment.

I don't think it was, or at least, not as much I think is adequate.

Allow me to sum up my entire anti-tier-worshiper argument in a single question:

Did you pick Marth and Fox because they were high-tier, or because you really just wanted to use them?

I don't know why, care to explain?

To imply a reverse of perspective. There is no such thing as a best character, yet in the eyes of some there is. Hence: "best character".

Secondly, the tier list represents the current metagame.

This guy knows.

For the positions that truly matter in competition (the top 10 or so characters), the melee tier list is a very accurate list of what characters are just plain better.

And thus, because of that, certain people will only desire these 10 or so characters, because of their high standing and nothing else.

 

[Corax The Cold]

uhh, its not a patch, its a new game

 

[pud22]

Its interesting how super smash bros. is turning into an actual more traditional fighting game and ppl r freaking out. this is one of the only intelligent threads ive read on this subject...

 

[Psydon]

Its interesting how super smash bros. is turning into an actual more traditional fighting game and ppl r freaking out. this is one of the only intelligent threads ive read on this subject...

There is no relation between "Smash" and "traditional". XD

 

[Professor X]

Every character should have one (and only one) broken move. Only that will truly balance the roster.

But seriously, that could hardly be regulated by the designers as well. I'm personally of the opinion that no matter how much they test the game, the competitive smash community will test it harder, and ultimately play with strategies that were not fully intended by the designers. They can make obvious buffs and nerfs (ie speed, power), but there will likely be unintended consequences.

I guess all I'm saying is that the metagame can't be projected a priori, even by Sakurai.

 

[A6M Zero]

Did you pick Marth and Fox because they were high-tier, or because you really just wanted to use them?

I've played Fox from the very beginning, since smash 64 and the very first time I hit the power button on that old console. I've played Fox as my main character because I like him, I liked the way he felt, how cool he was, and the games he was in. I liked Fox as Fox, not as a top tier character. I played him for years before I even knew a tier list existed, and I still do and still will into Brawl. I will not play a character just because they're good, I'll play a character because I like the way they feel and play, and how much I just like "them".

I just wanted to put that out there, not everybody plays for high tiers, some do though, that's fine with me.

It's pointless to say because they won because they had a "better character" than you, that's no excuse. You have to suck it up and beat them next time. Just because of the people who play a character because they're good, doesn't mean it's wrong to do so or that everyone does, it infuriates me with people calling me a tier-hugger back in my hometown, when I've been standing by Fox since the beginning of time.

Tiers WILL exist, but tiers don't make the winners and best characters. Players make the tier lists, because it's a PLAYERS skill that decides the outcome of the match, and it's very likely mindgames are going to be more important than ever in Brawl. It doesn't matter how good their character is if you're a better player.

Comparing "skill levels" of players over different characters is also a very difficult task. A Sheik player who's played for 2/3rds of a Fox player's time playing Fox may beat the Fox player, but does that make him more skilled? Probably not, Fox is a far harder character to play well than Sheik. It's easy to play Sheik decently relatively fast, not easy to pick up and play Fox well quickly.


When Brawls comes out, people will be forced to play the characters that work for them. Picking up a good character, just because they're good, is useless to worry about, BECAUSE IF THAT CHARACTER DOESN'T WORK FOR THEM, IT WON'T BE GOOD FOR THEM. Marth is a great character, but I suck with him, he doesn't fit my style. Neither does Falcon or Peach or really Falco. I'm a Fox player, and Fox happens to be at the top of the tier list, I'd play him if he were dead last. A Good character is only a Good character if the person playing them is Good with That Character. Someone who's bad with Fox will lose to someone who'd good with Luigi.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Metaknight - Give him a little more power. I understand that they're trying to make him as not like Marth as possible, but just a little more power, in his Smash attacks if nothing else, isn't gonna make him broken.

He's already a fairly decent damage racker, so he does have to have some flaws. Maybe lack of killing power is how they balance a fast, combo oriented, long lasting (thanks to his amazing recover), disjointed hitbox wielding character.

Sonic - Whatever power he may have, take it out. That includes his spiking dair. We all know the dangers of spiking dairs with fast characters.

Sonic seems fine the way he is. That dair is a meteor smash, so it's really no different than all of the other meteor smashes we've seen in melee. Sonic's combos also don't rack up damage as say, Metaknight or Pit, so giving him a little bit of power is okay. He's lacking range too, so getting his strong attacks to connect could already be tough.

Allow me to sum up my entire anti-tier-worshiper argument in a single question:

Did you pick Marth and Fox because they were high-tier, or because you really just wanted to use them?

I picked up Marth simply because I like swordsmen. I tried Roy, but I liked speed more than power (only later did I find Marth has both) so I dropped him. I also liked his outfit, as it brought that whole swift swordsman look.

To imply a reverse of perspective. There is no such thing as a best character, yet in the eyes of some there is. Hence: "best character".

Yes, some characters are better than others. That is true about any game that has multiple playable movesets.

This guy knows.

All praise MookieRah

And thus, because of that, certain people will only desire these 10 or so characters, because of their high standing and nothing else.

Certain people will also despise these 10 characters, because of their high standing and nothing else. Every single fighting game will have a tier list. That's because fighting games actually have different characters, with strengths and weaknesses. Some characters will simply have advantages over each other, and the ones with more advantages will be considered better characters. Yes, certain people will flock to these "high tier" characters for nothing other than their standings, but many people stick with a character because they actually like playing that character.

 

[pud22]

There is no relation between "Smash" and "traditional". XD

i get what ur sayin
but when i said thay i was thinkin of the street fighter type games where evryone is pretty balancd despite their obvious differences.

 

[Psydon]

I've played Fox from the very beginning, since smash 64 and the very first time I hit the power button on that old console. I've played Fox as my main character because I like him-

I applaud you, good sir. ^_^

I read the rest of your post, but I'm just cutting it short to save space, because I only have one thing to say: QFT.

He's already a fairly decent damage racker, so he does have to have some flaws. Maybe lack of killing power is how they balance a fast, combo oriented, long lasting (thanks to his amazing recover), disjointed hitbox wielding character.

I guess. Yeah, I'll go with that. But I stand by everything else I said.

Sonic seems fine the way he is. That dair is a meteor smash, so it's really no different than all of the other meteor smashes we've seen in melee. Sonic's combos also don't rack up damage as say, Metaknight or Pit, so giving him a little bit of power is okay. He's lacking range too, so getting his strong attacks to connect could already be tough.

See above. Of course, I've never played Brawl yet, but given the info I've read on Sonic, he seemed like the new Falco to me.

I picked up Marth simply because I like swordsmen-

You have my praise, good sir. ^_^

Certain people will also despise these 10 characters, because of their high standing and nothing else. Every single fighting game will have a tier list. That's because fighting games actually have different characters, with strengths and weaknesses. Some characters will simply have advantages over each other, and the ones with more advantages will be considered better characters. Yes, certain people will flock to these "high tier" characters for nothing other than their standings, but many people stick with a character because they actually like playing that character.

QFT. I'm glad people understand what I'm talking about. ^^

I wasn't going to initially say this, but this is what I think should be done with the various clones and unconfirmed Melee characters, if they come back.

Marth - Remove the tipper and that weird airstun effect from his attacks.

Roy - Marth costume w/ different voice.

Falco - Nerf his laser, remove the Shine, nerf his dair, nerf his d-tilt, nerf his uair and Smash attacks, nerf...y'know what, just don't bring him back or make him a Fox costume with a different voice; it makes it a lot simpler.

Doc - Mario costume.

Luigi - Mario costume w/ different voice, or make his moveset completely different from Mario's (he already has a few different moves; there's potential there).

Y.Link - Don't bring him back.

Ganondorf - Bring him back with a completely new moveset, his sword and his Twilight Princess costume. After all, he IS...the Lord of all Evil. =D

Sheik - See Falco, minus the "don't bring back" part. Or, perhaps they could give him and Zelda each a new Down+B and make them separate characters.

G&W - Make him sound even more annoying!

Pichu - Pikachu costume w/ different voice.

Mewtwo - Dunno; Taj could comment on Mewtwo. But he ought to come back anyway; he's badass. And with a Mew costume. ^^

CF - Just bring him back.

 

[sffadsad]

W00T time for some random newb to throw in his two cents!

Well judging from the gameplay videos and a few brawl updates thus far I think that the developers are in fact trying to go for an all around balance. They've had the time and hopefully by now the experience of balancing out each character. The development team has been playing brawl matches (I think) for a while so they would have a clear idea of who needed some tuning up or some toning down. However I don't think they're just going for an every character should have an equal chance. Instead I think they're really trying to add some strategic elements in. For example a have character such as Ike would be ideal for counters and getting in kill moves whenever the player can while Sonic is a complete opposite and is ideal for quick comboing and bugging the heck out of your opponent. This would be extremely player friendly in that certain people like playing a certain way whether it be through impressive combos, amazing counter moves, quick long range strikes to wear someone down, or maybe by just trying to have a little bit of everything. By focusing on a great pro for certain characters players would be able to find the one that suites them best, or would cause their opponent to think a lot more during combat.

With the new overall speed of Brawl I think the devs were going for a balance between a fun game for the casual gamers, a great opportunity for new strategies and tactics for the pros, and a little bit of button mashing for the people who like quick games.


If someone's said something like this then don't mind me I'm just a

 

[shadowfox666]

Where to start

Peach: Aerial Combos unlimited fricking freedom in the air needs to be nerfed down a lot. Also she can pick up Beam Swords, Bombs other stuff...

Fox: If we nerfed down his speed just slightly or his up smash or down smash or both probably both unfortuanately...

Sheik: Up Smash Down Smash Speed Needles.

Mario: Needs more to work with Iunno his smash really doesn't seem to be all that great if you think about it and he's overall too balanced. Yes I know he's supposed to be, but c'mon

Luigi: Up B needs to be toned down 3 HKO FTF, Buff his smash and other attacks...

DK: Actually I'd have to say he isn't bad His down Smash Immobilizes you like it just smashes u down U get plowed into the ground yet they say their buffing him this could complicate things. Although his Up B is kind of ******** I'd like to see something a little more interesting than a Helicopter style, maybe vines?

Mewtwo: I'm seeing a Long Range controllable attack over Shadow Ball in his future also his teleport isn't bad if u can control it right u can dodge every attack hell you can speed up. His Up A is fairly cheap he's kind of like Fox in a way I like his Aerial A, however his projectile reversal is so awful the timing has to be right, and there is a lag between when it starts and ends like I'd give a rough estimate of 2 seconds.

Bowser: His speed can be slightly buffed I'd be happy.

Ness: Yes I am sure he will return ok let's nerf down his up smash and down smash to non immobilizing levels of continuous insanity. But in return I want to see Up B being how it was in the original Smash in this one.

Link: Needs slightly more speed and decrease the lag just a little bit.

Captain Falcon: He Returns With the Smash Set, But Gannondorf gets a new set

Gannondorf: Comes back as a sword weilder as well as Projectile user.

 

[Percon]

Good topic, guys, smart discussion that's flame free. Keep it up!

...except the part where falco doesn't come back.

 

[Mikezor]

If both players had equal skill level, and it was Fox Vs DK, guess who would win? Fox.

Not true! On my game disc it is so scratched up that if Fox shines DK, the game freezes.

 

[UltimateShinigami]

Aside from the first Super Smash Bros, Starfox was probably my favorite game on N64. This is why for a time I mained fox in SSB (later switching to samus) and began to main fox again (leaving samus) after a while of melee. Fox has always been one of my favorite characters in the Smash world. So tell me why my current main is the iceclimbers?

This is because once i found out about high-level play and tiers and shared the info with my friends, a shiek player automatically surfaced among us, then he switched to marth, a falco player emerged where there was none, and everyone started using the most broken combo's possible from youtube videos. I actually was sickened by this, and after i was good enough (imho) to hold me own at a semi-pro level, i started to get turned off a little (but i still play of course). This is because in melee, you almost have to be one of the top-high-highermid tiers characters to win. I choose IC's because if you don't wobble, they are a good balance, not broken, and able to stand up against high tiers if you play near flawlessly.

I like the nerfs because as it has been said, it allows people to choose their favorite characters without knowing they'll be facing an I-win-button. I might actually pick fox back up now that he has been nerfed because i know alot of people will drop him for the same reason. Why go through all the trouble of making so many characters, if after so long, the rest become but a shadow of the games true intent because they're "low tier"

Also, as someone else mentioned, they could have patches via wi-fi. Halo has been doing it since halo 1 and it's still an amazing game. The patches force people to get better at the game itself rather than practicing exploits and racing to be the first one to lock the opponent. Also, look at mortal kombat. Ever since deadly alliance where you could juggle your opponent in the air, now in armageddon, after the third hit the person automatically flies face first into the ground to prevent unlimited juggles that do insane amounts of damage. As far as smash is concerned, all buffs and nerfs are welcome. We'll see if it was for better oro for worse once we discoverr metagame, but i truly believe they're done it this time. I look forward to playing super smash brothers: brawl, not super top tier brothers

Of course some people actually pick marth and fox because they actually like them, but that doesnt change the fact that they are slightly better when metagame is introduced. Lets imagine for a moment that everyone on this website has played smash for the SAME amount of hours, has seen the SAME videos, and has read the SAME strategies, now imagine I pick fox and you pick mewtwo, remember, we're just as good as each other, I bet a gazillion dollars I beat you, and you know it's true. That is why the game needs balance. and balance does mean nerfs AND buffs.

Look at it as like a scale. Some characters weigh 125 lbs, and some weigh as low as 75. Because of this they need to nerf the 125's and buff the 75's so that they all wiegh a nice round 100 lbs. The way some of you are putting it, they should only buff the 75's, but 75 to 125 is way more significant than 75 to 100 and 125 to 100. Everything is equal that way.

 

[autobzooty]

i'm not sure that any one character in melee is inherently cheap. that is to say, i believe it's possible to be cheap with just about any character. it depends on the player.

that being said, it would be impossible to simply bring every character's effectiveness up to balance the game. it's just not feasible. fox has to be slower. mario needs better finishing capabilities. kirby needs more power overall.

an ideal smash world is one without a tier list. part of what i love about the games is that the characters are balanced so well (relatively speaking. let's hope it gets even better). we don't choose the "best character in the game," we choose the character we like the most, or the character that we connect with most. that's why it's so sad when someone who is new to the game wants to play as kirby...

 

[UltimateShinigami]

i'm not sure that any one character in melee is inherently cheap. that is to say, i believe it's possible to be cheap with just about any character. it depends on the player.

that being said, it would be impossible to simply bring every character's effectiveness up to balance the game. it's just not feasible. fox has to be slower. mario needs better finishing capabilities. kirby needs more power overall.

an ideal smash world is one without a tier list. part of what i love about the games is that the characters are balanced so well (relatively speaking. let's hope it gets even better). we don't choose the "best character in the game," we choose the character we like the most, or the character that we connect with most. that's why it's so sad when someone who is new to the game wants to play as kirby...

QFT except for the first part IMO. You can't be cheap with any character no matter who you are in melee, but I'm hoping that is what changes in brawl. I'm not against cheap players/moves, as long as they're counterable and not exclusive to a select few characters like in melee. In a game like soul calibur where a complete nub could beat you at first by just mashing buttons, they eventually single off into one effective move which you can learn how to avoid without changing your whole style. That's what brawl needs. In melee, no matter what you do, you can't avoid the shine with all characters and you can't break the chain once started.

 

[autobzooty]

QFT except for the first part IMO. You can't be cheap with any character no matter who you are in melee, but I'm hoping that is what changes in brawl. I'm not against cheap players/moves, as long as they're counterable and not exclusive to a select few characters like in melee. In a game like soul calibur where a complete nub could beat you at first by just mashing buttons, they eventually single off into one effective move which you can learn how to avoid without changing your whole style. That's what brawl needs. In melee, no matter what you do, you can't avoid the shine with all characters and you can't break the chain once started.

i agree. even a cheap move is usually counterable. the only thing i dont like is when someone will have ONE move and do nothing but use that move over and over. ultimately, i think it should be about having fun, and when someone is spamming you with fox shine (or whatever) it gets real frustrating real quick.

certainly, i would rather have a great fair match and lose than win a match where i only won because i know a cheap trick or two.

 

[UltimateShinigami]

exactly! I'm glad we see eye to eye

 

[MookieRah]

i agree. even a cheap move is usually counterable. the only thing i dont like is when someone will have ONE move and do nothing but use that move over and over. ultimately, i think it should be about having fun, and when someone is spamming you with fox shine (or whatever) it gets real frustrating real quick.
certainly, i would rather have a great fair match and lose than win a match where i only won because i know a cheap trick or two.

I counter this argument with the fact that you don't deserve a win if you can't counter a tactic consisting of spamming one attack over and over again. In high level matches we try our best to not be predictable and predict what our opponents will do by whatever tactic at our disposal, but if you can't handle the most predictable thing one can do (move spam) then you should start thinking of ways to get around it instead of complaining.

I do agree that it is a lame thing to do, especially if it's in friendlies. Nevertheless, you should try to get around out, cause when you do you can totally take a dump in his cereal.

People also need to get off their morale high horses when it comes to picking characters. Guess why I picked up Marth guys? It was cause I knew he was good (that and after maining Roy, then Mewtwo, I kinda wanted to move up a bit), and at first I sucked with him. After I figured him out I discovered how freaking AWESOME he was and how I could use him in ways to mind game. God, establishing a fear of random tippers into your opponent by the first match is so debilitating to your opponent and SO MUCH FUN. For those who haven't fully realized the joys of completely controlling your opponent with fear and baiting tactics, I pitty you, for you are missing out XD.

 

[autobzooty]

It is great when you can put a person like that in their place, but it's not worth my time. It's too frustrating and no fun at all. I don't care who "deserves" to win the match, I just wanna play and have a good time.

 

[gangstajuice02]

if you think about it this thread could be important!

 

[Psydon]

I counter this argument with the fact that you don't deserve a win if you can't counter a tactic consisting of spamming one attack over and over again. In high level matches we try our best to not be predictable and predict what our opponents will do by whatever tactic at our disposal, but if you can't handle the most predictable thing one can do (move spam) then you should start thinking of ways to get around it instead of complaining.

I do agree that it is a lame thing to do, especially if it's in friendlies. Nevertheless, you should try to get around out, cause when you do you can totally take a dump in his cereal.

People also need to get off their morale high horses when it comes to picking characters. Guess why I picked up Marth guys? It was cause I knew he was good (that and after maining Roy, then Mewtwo, I kinda wanted to move up a bit), and at first I sucked with him. After I figured him out I discovered how freaking AWESOME he was and how I could use him in ways to mind game. God, establishing a fear of random tippers into your opponent by the first match is so debilitating to your opponent and SO MUCH FUN. For those who haven't fully realized the joys of completely controlling your opponent with fear and baiting tactics, I pitty you, for you are missing out XD.

The problem is not so much working around the spam, it's what happens once it starts. We've all seen waveshine kills at <20%, and I'm sure most of us have experienced it. It's not the move itself that's necessarily broken (shinespiking aside, 'cause even though I've "worked around it", it is broken), it's the character with the move.

And I applaud you, Mookie. Somebody could interpret you as the sort of person I'm against but I know you're not. And it's not because you mained Roy and M2 before. People like you and that other guy, I don't have a problem with.

i'm not sure that any one character in melee is inherently cheap. that is to say, i believe it's possible to be cheap with just about any character. it depends on the player.

that being said, it would be impossible to simply bring every character's effectiveness up to balance the game. it's just not feasible. fox has to be slower. mario needs better finishing capabilities. kirby needs more power overall

1. The four top tiers are inherently cheap. That's part of why they're top tier.

2. It's not as difficult as you're making it sound. Just change the characters, test them and see what happens. That's precisely what they're doing. XD

Good topic, guys, smart discussion that's flame free. Keep it up!

...except the part where falco doesn't come back.

Sorry, meant to edit that. He ought to be a Fox costume with a different voice.

 

[APImagine]

Personally, I would prefer to have all of the characters balanced out.

I used to play a TON of Diablo II back when it first came out, and I got sick and tired of it because of "cookiecutter" builds. People in the game found one or two classes with a ridiculously broken skill, and set up builds around it. The game's classes are most certainly not balanced anymore, not with the game's current 1.11b version, and all I ever see are two or three set classes, and only a handful of typical cookiecutter builds within those classes.

My personal opinion is that things should be much more overall balanced, in any game. It adds to the variety you see, as well as lasting value.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

Just so you know, you can only waveshine infinite a few characters. The ones that fall down you have to Thunder's combo. The ones that go tot far you have to drillshine, which can easily be SDI'd out of. And even the ones that can be waveshine infinited are still hard enough that the combo won't last until death, except maybe vs. Link.

 

[slikvik]

Just so you know, you can only waveshine infinite a few characters. The ones that fall down you have to Thunder's combo. The ones that go tot far you have to drillshine, which can easily be SDI'd out of. And even the ones that can be waveshine infinited are still hard enough that the combo won't last until death, except maybe vs. Link.

Its not necessarily the waveshine thats broken. Its the options out of it. one waveshine to upthrow>>uair, waveshine up-smash. almost always guaranteed killers out of a shine...a move that hits on the first frame.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

Its not necessarily the waveshine thats broken. Its the options out of it. one waveshine to upthrow>>uair, waveshine up-smash. almost always guaranteed killers out of a shine...a move that hits on the first frame.

Yes, but some noobs were talking about how every shine ended up in a huge chain, which is ridiculous. Shine is still broken, of course.

 

[Psydon]

Yes, but some noobs were talking about how every shine ended up in a huge chain, which is ridiculous. Shine is still broken, of course.

It's true; it's not like every Fox/Falco can setup a flawless shine kill combo from the very first one. But the chains are there, and they're made even worse due to the multitude of ways the combos can extend.

I don't think that the Shine itself is broken, except its spiking properties. The problem is its use with characters like Fox and Falco, as well as the mechanics of Melee in general. All of these things create the apparently brokenness of the move. Of course, the good thing about it is that a simple change such as a delay fixes it all.

 

[Ruggeth]

Fox was nerfed. Deal with it.

 

[Yaya]

Ruggeth, those are exactly the unintelligent type of comments we're trying (and so far have been successful) to avoid, if you don't have something intelligent to say, please don't say anything at all.

We all know Fox has been nerfed, and we're not whining. We're /discussing/ the degree to which he was nerfed and talking about if it was right, too much, too little, ect. And we're doing that for every character. We are dealing with it, and we're dealing with it in the most mature way possible.


(Joint Comment by A6M Zero and Yaya)

 

[Psydon]

Well, to sum up the changes we know of:

Fox: No auto-fastfall, nerfed u-smash and uair, modified bair (no longer a second sex kick), fair that hits with all strikes, nerfed blaster, no land-cancel, nerfed Shine, just about impossible to jump-cancel the Shine (you have to hold down-which takes one thumb-and B-which takes another thumb-, and then jump-which takes another thumb-to jump out of the Shine), no more waveshining.

Pikachu: Uair doesn't spike anymore, buffed u-tilt, buffed down+B, nerfed u-smash, has Peach's broken d-smash, extended f-smash.

DK: Buffed uair, buffed side-b, buffed down-b, nerfed b.

Yoshi: No more DJC, buffed aerials, buffed specials, up-b can now be used for recovery similar to Samus' bomb jumps.

Mario: Tornado cannot be used as recovery move anymore, usefulness of FLUDD pending, up+B if buffed and has unnatural knockback (almost KOed a Samus at 0% on Battlefield), otherwise buffed in every way.

Samus: Projectiles nerfed (WHY, SAKURAI, WHY?!!!) except that Missiles fire a bit faster and the Charge Shot charges and flies faster, Missiles have vertical knockback, bomb jumps are weird now but might have greater mindgame potential, buffed up-b, buffed airs, harder to CC-to-d-smash because the C-stick does tilts now, buffed tilts, faster grab speed, less post-grab lag, no more Rising Grapple b/c of the new airdodge.

Peach: No more broken d-smash, no more DJC, otherwise buffed in every way.

Link: Speed buff on movement and attacks, u-smash hits with all strikes but has more lag afterwards, cannot do the bomb recovery, all attacks and specials buffed except up-b; it moves higher and further but isn't nearly as powerful and doesn't spike.

Bowser: Speed buff, super armour, all attacks and specials buffed, larger and heavier.

 

[UltimateShinigami]

good. It's about time Link got the power he deserves, as well as King Koopa. The fox nerfs were a little extensive but w/e, its done.

 

[Psydon]

And now I'm doing to give my opinion on the changes we got so far, in terms of balance, since I believe that was the next subject the TC wanted us to discuss:

My previous data is blue, while my responses are white.

Fox: No auto-fastfall, nerfed u-smash and uair, modified bair (no longer a second sex kick), fair that hits with all strikes, nerfed blaster, no land-cancel, nerfed Shine, just about impossible to jump-cancel the Shine (you have to hold down-which takes one thumb-and B-which takes another thumb-, and then jump-which takes another thumb-to jump out of the Shine), no more waveshining.

Fox isn't overpowered anymore, you say?



'Nuff said. And let's face it, just like Gimpy said, Fox still has a lot going for him. Top tier? Probably not. High tier? You betcha. And there's nothing wrong with that. He's no longer overpowered, but he's still good. Everybody wins. ^_^

...Alright, alright, since Fox is one of the bigger subjects I'll go in-depth with him. Let's look at all of his changes one by one:

No auto-fastfall: Whoop dee doo. In other words; who cares?

Nerfed u-smash and uair: Even Fox players have to admit those two moves were WAY too powerful in both 64 and Melee. I'm glad that his u-smash was nerfed, but according to Gimpy his uair is not only nerfed, but so weak now it's more of a combo move than a killer. Even though I don't use Fox, I don't like that. There's nothing wrong with giving a character a killing uair, just as long as you don't make it too powerful. I don't think they needed to nerf it that much.

Modified bair: Apparently it's more like Samus' now, minus the damage and knockback...

Fair that hits with all strikes: Well, isn't that what it was supposed to do?

Nerfed blaster: Whoop dee doo.

No land-cancel: Byebye, SHB...which is useless for Fox anyway since he doesn't have a stunning blaster shot...oh yeah, I'd like to give a special mention to this talked about element to Fox's blaster:

"Fox can now SH TRIPLE LASER!!!"
"Oh, WOW! You mean I can attempt to do 3% damage just a little faster, at the cost of being lagged when I land?"
"That's absolutely right!"



Nerfed Shine, just about impossible to jump-cancel the Shine, no more waveshining:



...



...



...Look, something had to happen, and it happened. Fox players, deal with it. There are still plenty of ways for you to pwn people, and you can still shinespike. That move, given the applications Melee offered, was broken. These changes are good things. Well, not for you, but on a whole.

...

Pikachu: Uair doesn't spike anymore, buffed u-tilt, buffed down+B, nerfed u-smash, has Peach's broken d-smash, extended f-smash.

Pikachu's F-smash distance, relative to his body size, is one of the longest F-smashes in Melee, so why make it longer (on that note, you know what I'd love to see? A f-smash that's a projectile)? And what's with the new broken d-smash? No character deserves something that ridiculous. And I really don't see why they had to make the Thunder even faster (I haven't seen Pikachu in action in Brawl videos but from the info I've read, the Thunder likely comes out on "PIKAAA!!!", rather than a half-second after); it was already fast enough to take advantage of hitstun. That's madness; now there's absolutely nothing to stop a quick up throw to Thunder combo.


DK: Buffed uair, buffed side-b, buffed down-b, nerfed b.

No comment. Any DK players around?

Yoshi: No more DJC, buffed aerials, buffed specials, up-b can now be used for recovery similar to Samus' bomb jumps.

No comment. Any Yoshi players around?


Mario: Tornado cannot be used as recovery move anymore, usefulness of FLUDD pending, up+B if buffed and has unnatural knockback (almost KOed a Samus at 0% on Battlefield), otherwise buffed in every way.

What I like about Mario's changes is that they've, quite literally, buffed his strengths and maintained his weaknesses. His range has definitely increased (slightly), but he'll still have problems with range; he's short, after all. And he's still, overall, a weak combo-oriented character. Mario gameplay isn't going to change much at all; it'll just be a tad tougher to beat him now. And there's nothing wrong with that.

But what's with the magical Up+B that can KO at 10% (I'll admit I've never actually seen the move KO at 10%, but think about it: it almost KOed Samus, who is a relatively heavy character, at 0%, on Battlefield, which now has normal gravity)? Mario's out-of-shield game just became a lot deadlier.

Samus: Projectiles nerfed (WHY, SAKURAI, WHY?!!!) except that Missiles fire a bit faster and the Charge Shot charges and flies faster, Missiles have vertical knockback, bomb jumps are weird now but might have greater mindgame potential, buffed up-b, buffed airs, harder to CC-to-d-smash because the C-stick does tilts now, buffed tilts, faster grab speed, less post-grab lag, no more Rising Grapple b/c of the new airdodge.

Well, byebye missile spam...and let's be honest: which good Samus player spams missiles for longer than two seconds?

As for that "bomb jumps might have greater mindgame potential", that's just my little comment; the truth is that Samus' bomb jumps push you in a direction now (I'm not sure if you can control it). You can still bomb jump like you did in Melee but you have to move back to catch the second bomb (theoretically you could simply hop through bomb after bomb, back to the stage). So, you can mix up your movement, hopefully; if nothing else, the weird motion of the new bomb jump will look confusing in and of itself, and the movement itself can be used, possibly, as a means to avoid off-the-stage attacks. My point is: don't just dismiss the change to Samus' bombs as something stupid that cannot be beneficial in any way. At least the bomb's functions as an actual battle technique are exactly the same.

Anyway. Samus has never been overpowered...and by the looks of it, that's not changing. But her attacks are buffed, while her projectiles are nerfed, so hopefully the two changes will balance each other out.

Peach: No more broken d-smash, no more DJC, otherwise buffed in every way.

Well, at least her broken d-smash is gone...>>

Like many players, I just don't see why this had to happen. The ONLY thing Peach needed was a fixed d-smash; they should've just done that and left her alone. And yet, now she's vastly superior to her Melee self. And remember, this is Brawl, so our fair Princess doesn't have to worry about the same things she did in Melee.

Oh, and let's not forget that now you can catch items in mid-air with ease (oh, I'm sure that's not a problem for a character who makes her own items and spends at least three quarters of her matches airborne ), recovery has been made significantly easier...ladies and gentlemen, I think Peach may very well be one of Brawl's top tier-and overpowered-characters, and we will definitely see some bizzare item-dropping-and-catching combos with her.

Who knows, maybe there's some hidden element to her d-smash; maybe if you jump into it instead of crouching you'll take 80% damage.


Link: Speed buff on movement and attacks, u-smash hits with all strikes but has more lag afterwards, cannot do the bomb recovery, all attacks and specials buffed except up-b; it moves higher and further but isn't nearly as powerful and doesn't spike.

Link has never been overpowered, not counting his spin attack in Melee. At least now he can actually move decently.



Bowser: Speed buff, super armour, all attacks and specials buffed, larger and heavier.

We've all seen people like Gimpy rock with Bowser, and that was when he was slow and didn't have that crazy new side-b...