Change Wish List (ICs the way you want)

[Volume AF]

Just made this thread to see what you guys think should be changed about Ice Climbers, say a move or change their mechanics completely, let me know your ideas!


My CWL would be to be able to edge cancel side b at the last few frames of the end lag, and maybe have the AI be able to buffer pummels.

 

[Captain Chunk]

Not a ton actually. If we had a reliable way to chain grab or at least get good damage off a grab, I'd be satisfied. Dair is super easy to SDI and escape. In a perfect world they'd give us back melee handoffs, but that probably won't happen. A man can dream though

 

[ilysm]

I dunno, I think they're pretty much fine as they are.

If I had to ask one thing, it would be to give dair its Melee hitboxes back, with the very weak reverse one that sends opponents behind the climbers. In Melee, d-throw -> SH dair was a very reliable chaingrab, but in PM it just seems to send people straight up and away. And the d-throw -> reverse dair chaingrab on Captain Falcon and Ganondorf no longer works. It seems like the hitboxes have been homogenized so the entire hammer is just one big fairly weak hit with very low knockback scaling, but I'm not familiar with the actual numbers in how it was changed from Melee to Project M ( Hylian ?). I think maybe the different hitboxes of Melee's dair would give us a little more mixup flexibility out of a grab, which would be nice, since opponents who know DI tend to gut our chaingrabs.

That said, I think the change is far from necessary. The Icies are pretty much done in my eyes. I can't think of any glaring flaws in their design now that the infinites and turnaround walk momentum glitch are fixed.

 

[Hylian]

Not a ton actually. If we had a reliable way to chain grab or at least get good damage off a grab, I'd be satisfied. Dair is super easy to SDI and escape. In a perfect world they'd give us back melee handoffs, but that probably won't happen. A man can dream though

They've had melee hand-offs for like two years.

I dunno, I think they're pretty much fine as they are.

If I had to ask one thing, it would be to give dair its Melee hitboxes back, with the very weak reverse one that sends opponents behind the climbers. In Melee, d-throw -> SH dair was a very reliable chaingrab, but in PM it just seems to send people straight up and away. And the d-throw -> reverse dair chaingrab on Captain Falcon and Ganondorf no longer works. It seems like the hitboxes have been homogenized so the entire hammer is just one big fairly weak hit with very low knockback scaling, but I'm not familiar with the actual numbers in how it was changed from Melee to Project M ( Hylian ?). I think maybe the different hitboxes of Melee's dair would give us a little more mixup flexibility out of a grab, which would be nice, since opponents who know DI tend to gut our chaingrabs.

That said, I think the change is far from necessary. The Icies are pretty much done in my eyes. I can't think of any glaring flaws in their design now that the infinites and turnaround walk momentum glitch are fixed.

Dthrow dair works the same way it does in melee. You can make them end up behind you.


IC's aren't receiving any more changes unless it's bugfixes for the most part.

 

[ilysm]

Huh. Ok, I guess I'm just bad. Nvm, thanks Hylian. ^_^

Disregard my previous opinion. I think Icies are good where they are.

 

[Captain Chunk]

They've had melee hand-offs for like two years.



Dthrow dair works the same way it does in melee. You can make them end up behind you.


IC's aren't receiving any more changes unless it's bugfixes for the most part.

I meant more of melee Nana grab mechanics, so I can do melee handoff stuff. She will fthrow when she's way farther from the ledge, pummels, and will down throw sometimes. Makes for much better handoff punishes.

 

[Hylian]

I actually think her PM throws are better because you always know what she is going to do. I've gotten many low % kills from things like midstage handoff into popo spike onto top plat into dsmash.

 

[Captain Chunk]

I guess, but my biggest ideal change would be for Nana to fthrow while a bit farther away from the ledge. I like chain grabs, its the reason I play this character. This would make them a little more accessible I guess is all.

 

[zFrost]

giving them better chaingrabs/infinites is not only polarizing but not very fun, not to mention goes against pmdt's views on things

 

[Volume AF]

I still believe the pummel and side b cancels could be good buffs in a way. Can you buffer grabs? Cause I've pivot grabbed off f-throw and sometimes Nana does F-throw back at you, I'm not familiar with those properties. I think the problem with Dair is the extensive use it has had and the non creative side of chain grabs being used. Mixing up side b regrabs and reverse ice block regrabs are viable to mix it up. Also, I think doing mid stage hand off into weak Uair is viable (while maybe buffering Nana to regrab)

 

[Captain Chunk]

I'm not asking for infinites or easy chain grabs. More for a better punish game based around the fact that this character has two sets of hands to grab between. Its the reason I started playing them in melee, and the reason I keep up with them. But their punish game is kind of lacking. Giving them some high difficulty chain grabs helps retain their identity, as well as give the character some depth and helps people get into them. Sure we have some good CGs but they're unreliable, or rely on poor SDI from the opponent. What's wrong with giving them a punish game that rewards winning the neutral, getting a grab, and good knowledge of the timing it takes with every specific characters weight, solid tech skill and dedication to the character? I'm not saying brain dead handoffs like brawl that are instakills off one grab. I think the suggestions I've given like making Nana pummel, or making her fthrow while closer to like, the middle of battlefield platforms isn't a bad way of buffing them without polarizing anything. I like that idea, because you could maybe get a grab, use the dair or side b regrab to put them close to the ledge, then actually be able to do more than 30% from a grab.

 

[Hylian]

Ic's have an absurd punish game. One of the best in the game. I'm not sure how or why you want it to be better. Their punishes are reliable and there are many creative things you can do to keep combos going. I've gotten many 0-deaths from midstage grabs, it sounds like you just want their combos/chaingrabs to be more obvious, which isn't going to happen. You shouldn't have the same punish game in the middle of the stage as you do the edges. This isn't melee or brawl climbers, they have their own niche and how you control the stage to optimize your combos is a big part of PM IC's.

I mean there are plenty of examples of insane punish's the good IC players have done. I only really do simple ones and I still get 0-deaths lol.

^^Example of midstage punish's.

And of course, IC's have the best punish game bar none grabbing an opponent at the ledge:

 

[Psi Sig]

Their only glaring flaw is that the taunt desync is not in the game. But really though, the only change I can see being made changing how long Nana's hitbox stays out during the Belay, it feels deceptively long.

 

[ilysm]

Volume AF The f-throw occasionally comes out because Nana is at a range where she will attempt a dash back to you, which will register to the game as a motion forward. Nearest I can tell, there's a very small range at which this will happen. If Nana is any closer, she will do whatever appropriate throw because she is close enough to you. If she is any farther away, she won't throw at all until you get close enough to her. I don't think there is any infinite potential with the f-throw, as I haven't been able to get a regrab off of the f-throw consistently and I believe it's %-dependent, but as we have established, I am bad, so I could be wrong about this.

Regardless, there's some interesting followups you can get out of f-throw Nana pivot grab. If Nana f-throws, you can usually dash-grab in the opposite direction to catch them. Wavesmashes will also probably work. If Nana doesn't throw, it allows you to be ready to follow up off of her throw much sooner (you can get standard aerials off of an u-throw and more fancy stuff off of ledge f-throws and b-throws). Once, I was on Battlefield fooling around in training mode, on the far right side of the far right platform facing left. I did f-throw Nana pivot grab, then ran past her, which caused her to b-throw, and I was able to waveland onto the top platform and dsmash the opponent as he went by. The non-random element of Nana's throws makes for a lot more creative and flexible followups. Knowing what she'll do is always preferable to not knowing.

 

[Deleted member]

The ICs are fine as is. If anything I wish Blizzard could be able to freeze opponents again but that's about it.

 

[941]

Out of curiosity, why do we get Melee Fox, Falco, Marth, Peach, and buffed Melee Falcon, but ICs have to be unique? Also, Ike is really easy for most of the cast to combo, so showing off combos against Him doesn't really say much IMO.

 

[Hylian]

Err PM doesn't have melee fox/falco, they are both different/nerfed. Marth peach are considered to be designed well, falcon only has buffs on his sweetspot recovery. IC's are unique because of their unique design in the first place, and because no one wants something like wobbling in the game.

I also think IC's are better in PM than they are in melee.

 

[941]

Buffing Falcon's recovery is pretty substantial though, considering that was always his biggest weakness. I could see ICs being a better character in PM if you're just comparing the two iterations of the character, but I don't think they are better relative to the cast in PM than they are in Melee. I would like it if both ICs couldn't spam blizzards, but I guess it's all kind of irrelevant since there won't be any changes.

 

[Hylian]

Err, it just lets him sweetspot the ledge like every other character in the game, it's not that substantial. I'm pretty sure other aspects of the character have been nerfed as well.

I don't know what you mean by both IC's not spamming blizzard, that statement makes no sense to me. You can do the same things with blizzard in every game Ic's are in.

 

[941]

Sorry my description may have been pretty bad. You can see what I'm talking about 12 seconds or so into this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4L2PxZmSHUo

 

[Hylian]

You..don't want to be able to do that? That is a staple brawl thing that makes it easy for brawl players to transition to IC's.

 

[941]

Not really. It kind of allows ICs to camp and wall people out, and I think that creates some boring game-play. I suppose PM ICs are intended to be their own thing and not really brawl or melee, which I understand, but it doesn't really appeal to me as a Melee ICs player.

 

[Psi Sig]

Not really. It kind of allows ICs to camp and wall people out, and I think that creates some boring game-play. I suppose PM ICs are intended to be their own thing and not really brawl or melee, which I understand, but it doesn't really appeal to me as a Melee ICs player.

I'd rather have the choice to use a tool than to not have that tool at all, while it does allow people to camp and wall people out, its nice to be given the freedom on how you want to play the character.

 

[Hylian]

Not really. It kind of allows ICs to camp and wall people out, and I think that creates some boring game-play. I suppose PM ICs are intended to be their own thing and not really brawl or melee, which I understand, but it doesn't really appeal to me as a Melee ICs player.

It's..not very good at camping or walling. In fact I would say it's pretty bad at that. It's mainly an approach tool. Blizzard is very easy for most characters to just jump over.

Also not wanting something on a character because it doesn't fit your exact style of play seems silly to me.

 

[941]

Blizzard on it's own isn't good at walling, but when you can always have a blizzard going while having another climber free to act it becomes a lot safer. I feel like there are a lot of characters that are really risky for ICs to approach, so it seems like walling is often too good of an option when compared to other options. Phresh and Sharkz seem to get better results than any other ICs playing this way, which is why I think ICs walling ability should be toned down a bit in favor of other things.

 

[Hylian]

IC's..are amazing at approaching lol what? The characters that shut down their approach game (Peach/TL/Ivy) are the best against them...because they are really hard for IC's to approach and that is what they rely on because their defensive game is so bad.

I don't understand your concerns about the character at all. You want those things toned down because you don't personally like defensive play, even though IC's excel at approaching and have some of the worst defensive options in the game?

 

[941]

ICs approach honestly seems really bad if they can't follow-up on a projectile or punish an unsafe move. Their wavedash is the only mobility advantage that they have over other characters, but most things they can do out of the air or out of a dash are really slow. When I watch Phresh play, He mostly just desyncs iceblocks and blizzards until He either lands a hit that can be followed up, or the opponent approaches. Maybe ICs do have good approach options that I'm unaware of, but I've only seen players have success with a more campy, projectile focused style.

 

[Hylian]

ICs approach honestly seems really bad if they can't follow-up on a projectile or punish an unsafe move. Their wavedash is the only mobility advantage that they have over other characters, but most things they can do out of the air or out of a dash are really slow. When I watch Phresh play, He mostly just desyncs iceblocks and blizzards until He either lands a hit that can be followed up, or the opponent approaches. Maybe ICs do have good approach options that I'm unaware of, but I've only seen players have success with a more campy, projectile focused style.

IC's wavedash is a HUGE advantage. Burst movement is very strong in most fighters, smash is not an exception. They are one of the best characters in the game at punishing a whiffed move, and they can easily follow up on projectiles. This character can be played many ways, just like in melee none of the top IC players play anything like each other. Phresh likes to use desynching a lot, that doesn't mean IC's need to play defensively. I play very offensively and it works fine. I also don't think Phresh even camps, he just approaches with projectiles and holds on to stage control well using things like ice blocks to force opponents into the air and then punish's landings with w/e.

I mean...

Wavedash.

Desynch blizzard

Desynch Ice Shot follow it with popo.

Wavedash jab

Dash attack

Waveland/wavedash Bair

IC's have a plethora of approach options to mix up opponents with. Just being near an opponent sends them into a state of fear as IC's have such a great punish game off a grab, so naturally it's really good to be aggressive and stay right by your opponent.

 

[Volume AF]

It makes me happy to see you guys talk in the forums again but I don't agree with the blizzard call. It's useful for our setups and defense, even if it's lackluster to a point. I suggested the side B cancel when SoPo because I feel we have to much end lag on that move. And being able to pummel buffer would be amazing for styling on ledges and being able to get to get to platforms easier for combos. Just a nice touch to style game IMO

 

[Hylian]

If I do anything to IC's it will be to nerf them, not to buff them lol.

I'm not doing anything though, so this thread is pointless really :/.

 

[941]

I don't claim to be any good at PM, but whenever I try wavedashing in without landing a projectile or punishing a laggy move, whatever I do just gets beaten out by moves like Zelda's neutral B or G&W's D-tilt. It feels like almost every character has something good for stuffing ICs wavedash approaches. I've done a lot better by putting more space between myself and my opponents opponent and trying to force an approach with projectiles though.

If You want to nerf something, I think the strong hitbox on belay stays out a bit too long. Nana is literally falling for like the last 3 frames of it, but it can still KO off the top at really low percents during that time.

 

[Hylian]

That is likely something I would touch, I've considered it before as it does look really out of place.

Approaching at the right moments is important. They have a good approach because they have a lot of options and they have burst movement which means they have tools to create and close space quickly, and ways to keep their opponents guessing as far as approaches go. You can't just wavedash in and hope you get a hit, you have to pay attention to a lot of things like your opponents movement patterns, your stage position in relation to them, the length of the WD you want, any conditioning that's happened. IC's are one of the hardest characters in the game, and these things might not be obvious to some as other characters can kind of just brute force their way in(spacies, falcon) or have a simple gameplan for approaching(marth). This doesn't make IC's worse at it, just more complicated. This also leads to a lot more variety in how players use and optimize their approach.

Let me give you an example.

Marth vs IC's on battlefield.

You are both standing under the platforms on opposite sides, and marth is dash danching. You do a pivot iceblock and then wavedash forward into shield with popo. This prevents marth from running up and grabbing you beating your shield option, and lets you advance and gain stage control as you just took center stage and marth is either forced above you(not likely as marth doesn't want to be above you to be harassed with uairs) or marth shielded the IB and did something safe like WD back OoS giving you the stage control. Now that you have stage control you can stay in your shield and when nana gets to you(she will be running after your WD since you went forward while she was in IB animation), you can make her jump and do an approaching blizzard. This really cuts off marths movement and prevents him from dash dancing safely. You now have the option of WD -> grab with popo trying to catch him shielding, WD -> jab trying to catch him jumping/DD/jumping Oos( this combos into dsmash or grab as well), or WD in shield which counters him doing a SH fair or Fsmash trying to catch your approach. Which option you pick will depend on how well you know your opponent and picking the right ones basically is how good you are(top players excel at this sort of decision making).

This is a very specific example and I hope it helps you see the amount of options IC's have for approach and how they easily take stage control from a lot of character through threat of their grab. IC's excel at controlling the opponent, and their greatest weakness is when their opponent is all over them as they don't have good quick OoS options and their traction makes it hard to punish things OoS, not to mention nana doesn't DI things well .

 

[941]

I play a lot of Melee, so I know the basics of the Marth MU and that Marth could just D-tilt/F-tilt/Jab the Ice Block away and not give up stage control. What you're saying basically boils down to "ICs aren't a bad character that can do well if you read your opponent", which I'm not disagreeing with, but almost anyone can approach if the player knows the situation well enough. The point I wanted to make, is that I think it's generally better to use projectiles and try to force an approach that you can react to, rather than playing more offensive and relying on reads.

 

[Hylian]

Marth gets grabbed if he does any of that. That isn't what I'm saying at all. Melee is also my primary game and I generally destroy IC players in it by being super aggressive lol.

Spoiler

Any time he starts to set up a wall I just immediately go in and destroy him. It's no different in PM, it's just that at lower levels defensive play is a lot easier because your opponents mess up spacing and l-cancels.

You have to rely on your opponent to mess up if you're forcing them to approach all the time as IC's suck OoS you just have to hope for missed l-cancels and poor spacing. They are better at it than they are in melee, but not nearly as good as they are at it in brawl considering characters can actually move fast now and most can hit you through blizzard or cross you up easily if they know the match-up at all.

 

[941]

You've also beaten him by camping him and only going in when he does something unsafe in neutral or tries to approach.

I agree that trying to setup walls and camp in Melee is pretty bad, but I think it's a lot better in PM because Popo can blizzard safely and Nana can be further away without being AI controlled. ICs OoS options aren't very good against spacie sheield pressure, but there are a lot of situations where bair, uair, WD and occasionally dair are really good options OoS.

 

[Hylian]

You've also beaten him by camping him and only going in when he does something unsafe in neutral or tries to approach.

I agree that trying to setup walls and camp in Melee is pretty bad, but I think it's a lot better in PM because Popo can blizzard safely and Nana can be further away without being AI controlled. ICs OoS options aren't very good against spacie sheield pressure, but there are a lot of situations where bair, uair, WD and occasionally dair are really good options OoS.

There is actually a funny story behind that. The tournament before this he beat me for the first time(I had controller johns but still), and I had just gotten back from eating so my hands were really cold and I decided that I was going to mess up being aggressive and it would be easier to camp. I also was playing a mental game with him as he hasn't encountered that type of play before. This is the only time I've done it to him, and now he always bans dreamland vs me despite it being fine for IC's lol. That is an example of me playing the player rather than the match-up.

Edit: You can even listen to the very first thing the commentators say about me and hyper aggression in the match-up lol.

 

[941]

I think Fox is a bit of an edge-case because He can beat ICs by playing both aggressive and campy. In PM, characters like Sheik or Kirby can't really get in on them safely when the ICs player walls effectively, so a lot of MUs become really boring because it's usually risky for either character to commit to an approach. I really like the Sheik ICs MU in Melee because both characters are good at dealing with the others projectiles, but in PM ICs can wall Sheik out a lot better, and Sheik can needle camp harder. There are MUs where camping is usually pretty bad, and I enjoy playing those, but I've also been playing DK against a lot of characters because I like having to rely more on reads, and not feeling like I have to rely on iceblock spamming and desync walls in neutral.

 

[Phresh123]

Yo just don't nerf blizzard people hate me now cuz my blizzard game is OP.

IC's setup game is crazy alot of ya'll dont be using B-Reversal's which is VERY essential for coverage when they're not synced/pressured.

Normally I play people who think just cuz i'm partially split up that they can get in and build damage, get smacked with a b reversal ice/blizzard -> grab and it's over. Getting people to the platforms is easy since we can put up that wall to push people.

Personally feel 3.5 was better just cuz the mid stage infinite, but they're fine now without it either way.

 

[Hylian]

But the mid-stage infinite you were doing wasn't even real >_> people just weren't mashing correctly lol.

 

[941]

Are we talking about the handoff infinite, because that was definitely real. The execution might have been a bit too slow at times, but that infinite was legit if done properly.