Change My View: Changing veterans due to a recent game sounds cool, but is bad in practice

Quillion

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#1
(TL;DR version at the bottom of the post)

Don't get me wrong, I really like the idea of changing characters because of recent games. I've been posting various ideas about how characters can be changed on several threads in the veterans subforum.

But we have to face the facts here. Revamping veterans just because a recent game gave them a cool new ability just isn't a good idea. The whole issue is that for every one person who wants a character changed because of a recent game, there's going to be anywhere from ten to one hundred more people who liked whatever move it replaced in the first place. And even then; why should the developers strain themselves on animating, modeling, coding, and balancing a character around a new move when it would be easier to recreate and/or recycle the animations from the previous installment. It's just easier on both the silent majority of fans and the developers to keep the movesets of everyone consistent.

And don't think I can't come up with a good example of people objecting to changes in movesets. Because there actually is In Marvel vs. Capcom 2, Jill Valentine from the Resident Evil series was based primarily on Resident Evil 1. When she reappeared in Marvel vs. Capcom 3 based on her brainwashed self in RE5, no one liked it. Could you imagine how much greater the backlash would be if that happened in Smash?

And really, this need to change characters because of new games is starting to get ridiculous. For Ganondorf, I can argue that he's very faithful as is, but I can still see the ever growing dissonance between his Smash portrayal and his canon portrayal. With Wario, I can also argue that he's faithful, but I can see how people want him to be like he is in the games where he actually does do fighting.

But why in the hell does it have to extend to Mario and Link of all characters? Have people already forgotten that their current movesets already do a good job of portraying their respective selves from their respective series? Also, where were the people who wanted Mario to have the Star Spin after Galaxy? Where were the people who wanted Link to have Wolf moves after Twilight Princess and/or the Skyward Strike after Skyward Sword?

HOWEVER, I want my view changed. I want either reason to hope that characters can be changed, or, failing that, that there is a good reason as to why characters should be changed.

TL;DR:
  • I like thinking of moveset changes, but...
  • It would anger the majority of fans and be too much work on the developers.
  • No one liked Jill's portrayal in MvC3 compared to MvC2.
  • Wario and Ganondorf are fine to complain about, but Mario and Link aren't.
  • I want my view changed.
 

HairMythe

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#4
But why in the hell does it have to extend to Mario and Link of all characters?
They already had changes done to their movesets to reflect most recent games. It isn't a stretch to think that scenario could happen again. Especially concerning Link for Smash Switch. His BoTW appearance may mean he has no boomerang and hookshot. He may also come without his shield, and he doesn't wear a chainmail anymore. The Legend of Zelda had a plethora of games that where at their core very similar, and that new game just reinvented the franchise. The odds of getting a revamped Link are actually somewhat high. But I really don't know if that would be a good thing, to be fair.

Revamping veterans just because a recent game gave them a cool new ability just isn't a good idea.
There is actually precedent in smash to contradict you. Pit.
But he's a very special case, to be fair. He don't really fall into the "a recent game gave them a cool new ability" scenario. Sure, just a cool ability isn't enough to revamp a character. It'd be a pretty bad idea to ditch every thing they already do and that already represent many games accurately, including the new one... That's why Link's case is so special. A BoTW moveset wouldn't represent past games accurately, that's for sure. But would his current moveset represent BoTW ? I'm not just talking about a gimmick like Wolf Link was. Melee Link's moveset already represented TP pretty well, because at their core, OoT and TP aren't that different.

So talking about a revamp in Link's case is far from ridiculous, given we know he had at least his design changed.

I don't think revamping a veteran just because of a new gimmick is a great idea. However, updating moves of a veteran fighter with something they can do in their most recent games can be good. I do think, however, that representation isn't that crucial, though. What would justify such changes would be better complementing their current moveset.
 

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#5
Changing characters will upset some and excite others, there is no getting around that. Link and Zelda are both prime suspects of total character revamps atm which I didn't like the idea of at first since I have played Zelda since she was introduced to the series. She is clunky and not that great of a character, but she is very fun to use and my favorite fighter on the roster. Lightning Kicks and elevators are just so much fun and feel so rewarding to land. The idea of the character I have played for so long no longer being an option kinda sucks tbh. But I have warmed up to the fact that Zelda may receive a total revamp because it gives her the option to become a better, and maybe even more fun, character overall and me the option to relearn all the little intricacies of the character again. It's a breath of fresh air... for a lack of a better term. Some will welcome it, some will despise it and either move on to a new character or beg for it to be reversed lol. I kinda went through the same thought process when Zelda and Sheik were split into 2 characters and had their Down B replaced with new moves. I use to swap between both characters for different things but that was no longer an option. If I was fighting a fast character I no longer had the option to swap to Sheik anymore to deal with them. Would I still enjoy the character? Because the transformation mechanic was the thing that drew me to the character in the first place... The change was more beneficial to Sheik than it was to Zelda honestly but it didn't stop me from playing the character I liked. I just had to learn to play her differently. Just some food for thought. Change is not always a bad thing. It's not always a good thing either... Just hope for the best lol
 
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Quillion

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#6
They already had changes done to their movesets to reflect most recent games. It isn't a stretch to think that scenario could happen again. Especially concerning Link for Smash Switch. His BoTW appearance may mean he has no boomerang and hookshot. He may also come without his shield, and he doesn't wear a chainmail anymore. The Legend of Zelda had a plethora of games that where at their core very similar, and that new game just reinvented the franchise. The odds of getting a revamped Link are actually somewhat high. But I really don't know if that would be a good thing, to be fair.
Okay, literally the ONLY thing that BotW doesn't have that Link traditionally had is the hookshot. You do know that boomerangs were in BotW, right? Even then, one of the developers went on record saying that they considered the hookshot for BotW, meaning they probably have a leftover design for it lying around somewhere.

There is actually precedent in smash to contradict you. Pit.
But he's a very special case, to be fair. He don't really fall into the "a recent game gave them a cool new ability" scenario. Sure, just a cool ability isn't enough to revamp a character. It'd be a pretty bad idea to ditch every thing they already do and that already represent many games accurately, including the new one... That's why Link's case is so special. A BoTW moveset wouldn't represent past games accurately, that's for sure. But would his current moveset represent BoTW ? I'm not just talking about a gimmick like Wolf Link was. Melee Link's moveset already represented TP pretty well, because at their core, OoT and TP aren't that different.
Smash 4 Pit wasn't a revamp though. They just reworked current moves so that they work as similar as they do currently while referencing his old moveset. Just with specials alone:
  • Arrow of Light stayed the same.
  • Guardian Orbitars is identical functionally to Mirror Shield.
  • Power of Flight may work differently from Wings of Pegasus, but it's visually similar anyway.
  • Upperdash Arm is still a rushing attack that responds to projectiles like Angel Ring.
Now, let's look at selected moves from Link's Smash 4 moveset and see if they're in BotW:
  • Bow? In BotW.
  • Boomerang? In BotW.
  • Spin Attack? In BotW.
  • Bombs? In BotW. Granted, BotW is the first time in a 3D game where you can detonate them at will, but an aesthetic workaround isn't out of the question.
  • Jump Attack? In BotW.
  • Downward Thrust? In BotW.
As you can see, there really is no need to sacrifice all of Link's current moveset just for the sake of one Hookshot, one which the BotW team has likely already designed at that.

So talking about a revamp in Link's case is far from ridiculous, given we know he had at least his design changed.

I don't think revamping a veteran just because of a new gimmick is a great idea. However, updating moves of a veteran fighter with something they can do in their most recent games can be good. I do think, however, that representation isn't that crucial, though. What would justify such changes would be better complementing their current moveset.
I can agree with that last point. That's why Ganondorf getting his sword, trident, and/or magic would ruin his character, as it would destroy the slow, powerful punching archetype that has been built up. And none of Link's BotW-exclusive abilities fit his current moveset as well.
 

Banjodorf

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#8
This kind of thing always reeks of people being afraid of change. For every person disappointed by Link playing different than his old self there’ll be a BotW fan disappointed that he doesn’t represent *that* Link very well, myself included.

It’s limiting to developers to keep things like this the same. If Sakurai decides to make Link or even Mario more based on their recent iterations, it’s because he liked an element or several of those recent games that he probably wanted to implement to freshen them up. He’s done this in the past with FLUDD, the Gale Boomerang, Pit in 4, even Link and DK’s dash attacks in 4.

Plus, in Link’s case, we have a separate Link to rep the old kit.

And in direct response to the TL;DR, no one but Sakurai can make the call that Mario and Link, characters we have literally seen receive significant changes in design or moveset before, are too sacred to change in a meaningful way. Full stop.
 
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Zinith

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#9
Once tether grabs were introduced, Yoshi should've gotten one due to Yoshi's Story (a game that predated Smash), and Super Mario Galaxy 2 reaffirmed the fact that YES, he can use his tongue to tether, but still no luck...

But now that Odyssey tripled down on it, your move Sakurai...
 

Quillion

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#10
That "character" is Captain Falcon in a Ganondorf suit.
So do you think Mario, Dr. Mario, and Luigi are Ryu in Mario Bros. suits because they have a fireball, jumping uppercut, and spin move?

Do you think Mewtwo is Ganondorf in a Mewtwo suit because it has a chargeable energy ball, a projectile reflector, and a teleport?

This kind of thing always reeks of people being afraid of change. For every person disappointed by Link playing different than his old self there’ll be a BotW fan disappointed that he doesn’t represent *that* Link very well, myself included.

It’s limiting to developers to keep things like this the same. If Sakurai decides to make Link or even Mario more based on their recent iterations, it’s because he liked an element or several of those recent games that he probably wanted to implement to freshen them up. He’s done this in the past with FLUDD, the Gale Boomerang, Pit in 4, even Link and DK’s dash attacks in 4.

Plus, in Link’s case, we have a separate Link to rep the old kit.

And in direct response to the TL;DR, no one but Sakurai can make the call that Mario and Link, characters we have literally seen receive significant changes in design or moveset before, are too sacred to change in a meaningful way. Full stop.
Thing is, I'm seeing a lot of people making themselves believe that Link in BotW is a completely different beast from the Links from the rest of the franchise. When in fact, the only thing he doesn't have is the Hookshot. Even then, no one would call the Link in the Oracle games "not a true Link" because he didn't have a bow or a hookshot.

Also, I'd like to post this again:

Now, let's look at selected moves from Link's Smash 4 moveset and see if they're in BotW:
  • Bow? In BotW.
  • Boomerang? In BotW.
  • Spin Attack? In BotW.
  • Bombs? In BotW. Granted, BotW is the first time in a 3D game where you can detonate them at will, but an aesthetic workaround isn't out of the question.
  • Jump Attack? In BotW.
  • Downward Thrust? In BotW.
As you can see, there really is no need to sacrifice all of Link's current moveset just for the sake of one Hookshot, one which the BotW team has likely already designed at that.
Once tether grabs were introduced, Yoshi should've gotten one due to Yoshi's Story (a game that predated Smash), and Super Mario Galaxy 2 reaffirmed the fact that YES, he can use his tongue to tether, but still no luck...

But now that Odyssey tripled down on it, your move Sakurai...
Thing is, Yoshi has always needed some kind of object to outright wrap his tongue around to tether. It's not like Samus's Grapple Beam or Link's Hookshot that sticks into the requisite surface; it's more like the Grappling Rope in Wind Waker.
 

Al-kīmiyā'

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#11
So do you think Mario, Dr. Mario, and Luigi are Ryu in Mario Bros. suits because they have a fireball, jumping uppercut, and spin move?

Do you think Mewtwo is Ganondorf in a Mewtwo suit because it has a chargeable energy ball, a projectile reflector, and a teleport?
I shouldn't have to explain to someone with thousands of posts on this board how Ganondorf is a Captain Falcon clone/semi-clone.
 

Zinith

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#12
Thing is, Yoshi has always needed some kind of object to outright wrap his tongue around to tether. It's not like Samus's Grapple Beam or Link's Hookshot that sticks into the requisite surface; it's more like the Grappling Rope in Wind Waker.
This is they already screwed up the execution by having these extendable grabs stick to surfaces they aren't canonically supposed to stick to. What matters is that it has been shown that Yoshi can use his tongue for athletic purposes, and if the other characters can have tether recoveries, then so should he.

FYI, Super Mario Odyssey already has Yoshi trump the other characters by making him cling on to ANY surface with his tongue. Like I said, your move Sakurai...
 

Quillion

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#13
I shouldn't have to explain to someone with thousands of posts on this board how Ganondorf is a Captain Falcon clone/semi-clone.
Yeah, yeah. I know the stock arguments. Ganondorf is a villain of one of Nintendo's biggest series... Ganondorf was made at the last minute with no regard for how he reflects his home series... Ganondorf uses weapons and magic over punching in his home series...

But seriously. Mario is Nintendo's mascot. He was made to be Smash's own Ryu clone long before Ryu was made a Smash fighter for real. And he uses his hammer way more often than his fistfighting. Now where are the people who complain that Mario doesn't reflect his home series very well?
 

Banjodorf

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#14
So do you think Mario, Dr. Mario, and Luigi are Ryu in Mario Bros. suits because they have a fireball, jumping uppercut, and spin move?

Do you think Mewtwo is Ganondorf in a Mewtwo suit because it has a chargeable energy ball, a projectile reflector, and a teleport?



Thing is, I'm seeing a lot of people making themselves believe that Link in BotW is a completely different beast from the Links from the rest of the franchise. When in fact, the only thing he doesn't have is the Hookshot. Even then, no one would call the Link in the Oracle games "not a true Link" because he didn't have a bow or a hookshot.
I mean, people say all kinds of things. But given how BotW is a big departure from the norms of the series, it would be easy to see Sakurai thinking it was a time to reinvent Link to match that image.

Stuff like breakable weapons being the norm, runes and the paraglider being standard tools you need to progress through the entire experience. The real issue isn't that BotW Link doesn't have access to the things other Links have, but that to just slap the same kit onto a BotW-styled Link would feel like a slap in the face, given that it doesn't accurately represent what BotW Link is all about.

And Boomerangs aren't really tied to Link in the game. They're just another breakable weapon you can find on enemies, no specific connection to him like runes and the glider have. You could say the same about the bow, sure, but the arrow types, particularly the ancient arrows, are kind of an iconic thing for the game, which gives the bow a special place the boomerang doesn't share.

My point was that Sakurai wouldn't have felt the need to update the look in Smash unless he was prepared to update Link even a bit accordingly.
 

CaptainAmerica

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#15
I’ve never been a big fan of massive moveset overhauls. Sure, update some things which need to be updated, but there’s also a good amount of “if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it”

The whole “you’re just scared of change!” argument is infuriating though. You’re trying to make it seem like I’m an incompetent fool since I don’t want to learn a new moveset and therefore should be disregarded completely. I disagree. I prefer someone like Link’s moveset to stay because it represents multiple incarnations. Changing it to a solely BotW based kit feels like the height of presumption. It would basically be Smash admitting that BotW was the only Zelda game that mattered and the rest are irrelevant. Yes, Sakurai did that for Pit...and I believe that’s part of the evidence people use to complain about his bias. Remember FLUDD? One new move for Mario from the newest game, and they moved the old special to a dair? And people complained. And in regards to “Sakurai wouldn’t change his costume unless he was changing his moveset,” he did go from OoT in Melee to TP in Brawl without adopting the Ball and Chain, magnetic iron boots, spinner, etc.

On a more meta level, the more time that goes into revamping a veteran is the less time that goes into giving us new stuff. I’d rather port most of Link from Sm4sh - he was pretty good there; I’d like to see him wall-cling now and use Remote Bombs from BotW, maybe add crawling - but keep the rest pretty well the same and use that time to give us some fun newcomers or single player modes.

And I don’t know too many people who say “my main got cut, so I’ll just jump ship to this clone anyway.” Most people who favor the Zelda series like either Link or Tink, and not the other.

Now in regards to characters who started as clones, I’d be more accepting changing moves to something more appropriate. Most of them so far are changing a move to look or feel better, but a full replacement could be fine. Characters who already represent well, though. Keep changes minimal.

I know it’s easy to toss some ad hominem reductionist “well, you need to broaden yourself and accept changes, idiot. Stop living in the past. Just play the old game then” at this. But I could just as easily reduce your argument to “I want to change everything just to piss off mains trololololol,” so it seems we can all be equally dismissive here.
 

Banjodorf

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#16
I’ve never been a big fan of massive moveset overhauls. Sure, update some things which need to be updated, but there’s also a good amount of “if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it”

The whole “you’re just scared of change!” argument is infuriating though. You’re trying to make it seem like I’m an incompetent fool since I don’t want to learn a new moveset and therefore should be disregarded completely. I disagree. I prefer someone like Link’s moveset to stay because it represents multiple incarnations. Changing it to a solely BotW based kit feels like the height of presumption. It would basically be Smash admitting that BotW was the only Zelda game that mattered and the rest are irrelevant. Yes, Sakurai did that for Pit...and I believe that’s part of the evidence people use to complain about his bias. Remember FLUDD? One new move for Mario from the newest game, and they moved the old special to a dair? And people complained. And in regards to “Sakurai wouldn’t change his costume unless he was changing his moveset,” he did go from OoT in Melee to TP in Brawl without adopting the Ball and Chain, magnetic iron boots, spinner, etc.

On a more meta level, the more time that goes into revamping a veteran is the less time that goes into giving us new stuff. I’d rather port most of Link from Sm4sh - he was pretty good there; I’d like to see him wall-cling now and use Remote Bombs from BotW, maybe add crawling - but keep the rest pretty well the same and use that time to give us some fun newcomers or single player modes.

And I don’t know too many people who say “my main got cut, so I’ll just jump ship to this clone anyway.” Most people who favor the Zelda series like either Link or Tink, and not the other.

Now in regards to characters who started as clones, I’d be more accepting changing moves to something more appropriate. Most of them so far are changing a move to look or feel better, but a full replacement could be fine. Characters who already represent well, though. Keep changes minimal.

I know it’s easy to toss some ad hominem reductionist “well, you need to broaden yourself and accept changes, idiot. Stop living in the past. Just play the old game then” at this. But I could just as easily reduce your argument to “I want to change everything just to piss off mains trololololol,” so it seems we can all be equally dismissive here.
It's not really trying to be ad hominem. I'm not trying to lash out at people, merely point out that changes like this, or even significant changes overall, are almost always met with reactionist backlash.

I wouldn't say Brawl/Smash 4 Link really represents anything but TP though, even if he doesn't use any of the flashier items. It's the TP Bow, the Clawshot, the Gale Boomerang, and the TP Bombs.

Updating the look to BotW Link is already a huge departure from the traditional Link anyway.


Your case is easily the most relevant though. As a pure Link main , something like this would actually represent a negative for you. That's completely fair.

As someone who isn't committed to Smash Link, I suppose it's easier to want something different. To actually get elemental arrows on the bow (which can still be the same input and basic move), and the glider and all that fancy ****. We'll see.
 

Quillion

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#17
My point was that Sakurai wouldn't have felt the need to update the look in Smash unless he was prepared to update Link even a bit accordingly.
Well, if we're talking adding a few moves using different weapons like a spear or a heavy weapon, I can accept that.

But replacing all his specials with runes or the Champion abilities? Nu-uh, not going to happen.
 

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#18
Well, if we're talking adding a few moves using different weapons like a spear or a heavy weapon, I can accept that.

But replacing all his specials with runes or the Champion abilities? Nu-uh, not going to happen.
It's the "absolute" angle I dislike so much. Nothing is sacred unless Sakurai says it is, and he even changes his mind all the time.

Link could change specials just as easily as his outfit.
 

CaptainAmerica

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#19
I wouldn't say Brawl/Smash 4 Link really represents anything but TP though, even if he doesn't use any of the flashier items. It's the TP Bow, the Clawshot, the Gale Boomerang, and the TP Bombs
I do like the TP style, but I’m not married to it as much as I enjoy his iconic moves (spin attack, down thrust, and the fdash jump attack he finally got). Honestly, I’d prefer the boomerang/hookshot return to their generic forms since the standards were more ubiquitous than the TP specials. Also Link should absolutely have a teleportation entrance, of which BotW has a great one. Also in re to Botw, he should get his jab infinite back.

I have no problem with modding some moves at all to reference more games, I just don’t want a ground-up. Also in re to Link, if he got a total rework and Ganondorf didn’t, that would be infuriating beyond reason.

The one think I want Link to keep that they’ll probably get rid of is his dominant hand. Link’s been a lefty since the beginning until the Wii messed up the controls. His Smash incarnation has always been lefty, so if they mirrored all animations it’d take a lot of work. Conversely, mirroring the BotW model is a piece of cake, and then they can use the same animations - I doubt there’s much work that would need to go into using Sm4sh animations since it’s recent. But I admit: this is just me being a lefty myself and being bummed that my favorite character is getting retconned more than anything else.
 

Quillion

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#20
It's the "absolute" angle I dislike so much. Nothing is sacred unless Sakurai says it is, and he even changes his mind all the time.

Link could change specials just as easily as his outfit.
Yes, but when Sakurai changed his mind on things, he never completely threw out rules; he reinterpreted them so that any perceived changes still have integrity.

And I would like to quote this:

Have people already forgotten that their current movesets already do a good job of portraying their respective selves from their respective series? Also, where were the people who wanted Mario to have the Star Spin after Galaxy? Where were the people who wanted Link to have Wolf moves after Twilight Princess and/or the Skyward Strike after Skyward Sword?
Sure, Pit was changed, but only because it would be fair to newer fans since the Kid Icarus series only has three games. Is there any other character on the roster that requires that? No, because all veterans currently represent their home series very well.
 

Banjodorf

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#21
I can see we’re going to argue in circles because A wants X and B wants Y. Status quo vs. change, etc.

I’ve said my piece, and rationalizing Sakurai will only help until he changes the rules more. There are no rules, only perceptions of them.

Breath of the Wild is a much bigger departure for the series than anything before, and will likely represent its foreseeable future. Even into other games. Therefore, it makes sense to recreate Link more than a bit to mimic that.

Of course, the happiest medium would just be to add a fully-fledged Wild Link as his own character, at least I think. I’m willing to bet there’s substantial disagreement there as well considering the nature of development time.

But carry on, we’ll see in a week.

I do like the TP style, but I’m not married to it as much as I enjoy his iconic moves (spin attack, down thrust, and the fdash jump attack he finally got). Honestly, I’d prefer the boomerang/hookshot return to their generic forms since the standards were more ubiquitous than the TP specials. Also Link should absolutely have a teleportation entrance, of which BotW has a great one. Also in re to Botw, he should get his jab infinite back.

I have no problem with modding some moves at all to reference more games, I just don’t want a ground-up. Also in re to Link, if he got a total rework and Ganondorf didn’t, that would be infuriating beyond reason.

The one think I want Link to keep that they’ll probably get rid of is his dominant hand. Link’s been a lefty since the beginning until the Wii messed up the controls. His Smash incarnation has always been lefty, so if they mirrored all animations it’d take a lot of work. Conversely, mirroring the BotW model is a piece of cake, and then they can use the same animations - I doubt there’s much work that would need to go into using Sm4sh animations since it’s recent. But I admit: this is just me being a lefty myself and being bummed that my favorite character is getting retconned more than anything else.
Honestly, I'm not really even asking that his normals be re-worked. You could have a weapon-switching special if you really wanted to, but his normals are pretty solid as they are, frames aside. The one change I'd make is if the specials are given a BotW treatment, make the Spin Attack the Down Smash, which would be perfectly in line with the games anyway. Aerial Spin Attack always seemed like a "We didn't have much to work with back then/hadn't invented tethers" Up-B.

You can rep BotW Link just fine changing specials, and even then, B can still be bow, even if it could use some different properties. Same with down B being bombs, just with a remote element. Up B and Side B is where I begin to disagree with "Keep him the same".
 
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