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Change My View: Air Dodging is still inherently a bad mechanic

Quillion

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 17, 2014
Messages
5,512
Yes, I know that Ultimate has done a lot to improve air dodging as a mechanic thanks to it finally being limited to once per airborne state (until you get hit) and being affected by the long-overdue dodge staling.

But still, I've been revisiting a bit of Melee, and the fact that air dodging has been so heavily revamped over the course of the series isn't sitting right with me. I'm coming to the conclusion that air dodging is just a bad idea in itself and has been bad for the flow of the game since Brawl.

The problem with Brawl-and-on air dodging is that it turns the aerial state into a waiting game. While air dodging can be punished, the fact that it makes the user intangible means that the attacker really has no choice but to wait out the air dodge to resume the offensive. Sure, you can do things like bait an air dodge to capitalize on the endlag or frame trap an air dodge spammer, but my point still stands; if you read or bait an air dodge, you still have to wait it out to make your move. Again, I don't find this good for the game flow in the air since it is inherently harder to hit an aerial opponent due to the constant movement, so making the sole aerial defensive ability give the user intangibility just worsens the flow of the air game.

Melee's air dodge is still the best air dodge we've ever had in the series, and that's only because of its emergent properties and the fact that it goes to the other extreme from the Brawl-and-on air dodge since using it to dodge was extremely situational at best. It's clear that Melee's air dodge was designed so that its use would not impact the flow of the air game compared to Smash 64, but as a result, it goes too far in the opposite direction from the Brawl-and-on air dodge. For that reason, I would like the next Smash game to take the emergent properties of Melee's air dodge and turn them into dedicated mechanics and nix air dodging altogether. They should turn the L-button into a "wavedash button" while keeping R for shielding.

In turn, I would like to see air dodging replaced with air shielding while introducing air throws. This way, instead of always having to wait out an air dodge, the attacker can instead grab a shielding opponent and throw them. To compensate, if you do an air grab, you immediately do a forward throw, no directional throws, pummeling, or even clinging. Even an air shielding opponent can be grabbed on the ground say, if the opponent is doing run-jump-air shield to approach. I think this would be much better for the aerial game flow than any iteration of air dodging.

If there is a reason as to why air dodging is a good design element, I sincerely would like to hear it.
 

Linkmain-maybe

Smash Ace
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Messages
690
Switch FC
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I think another issue with it is that it allows mechanics like foresight and bat within to exist. They are both extremely unfun to fight mechanics as many combos that are otherwise true are not anymore, and in the case of foresight, you can get punished for landing your move. Both mechanics were very obviously designed as crutch mechanics due to both of them originating from DLC. This interrupts the flow of gameplay even more then usual, making the use of any projectile extremely unsafe as well as rewarding a bad habit of air dodging out of everything.
 

Linkmain-maybe

Smash Ace
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690
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Just out of curiosity, why would air grabs automatically result in a forward throw? Not saying it's a bad idea, just curious.
it would create scenarios where people die at like 60 to super strong throws like incineroars back throw, plant up throw, etc.
 

Quillion

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 17, 2014
Messages
5,512
it would create scenarios where people die at like 60 to super strong throws like incineroars back throw, plant up throw, etc.
That and it would make suicides way too common instead of something available only to a few specific characters.
 

Quillion

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 17, 2014
Messages
5,512
Now that is has come to my attention that Nickelodeon All-Stars Brawl, otherwise a Smash clone, is swapping out air dodging for air dashing, I'm even more convinced that air dodging is a bad mechanic.
 

Linkmain-maybe

Smash Ace
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I would like to point out that airdodge can be too strong or weak in certain MU’s. DK is a character that desperately needs a good air dodge, his being frame 4. Yet Fox, a character who doesn’t need a good airdoge has his at frame 2.
 

Reksew_Trebla

Smash Cadet
Joined
Oct 9, 2021
Messages
42
Your arguments about it interrupting the flow of battle are literally a strawman. All dodge/guard/shield mechanics do that in fighting games. Are you saying the only way to avoid an attack should be to never approach an opponent for fear of them grabbing you and being unable to dodge? That sounds like an awful game to me.

Furthermore, Melee is not a good example of amazing game mechanics. It is only amazing for tournament players, which were never the target audience. Smash is literally marketed as a party game, so going off of what tournament players like, when they aren’t even the target audience, is not, at all, a good argument.
 
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Quillion

Smash Hero
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Sep 17, 2014
Messages
5,512
Took long enough for this discussion to get somewhere.

Your arguments about it interrupting the flow of battle are literally a strawman. All dodge/guard/shield mechanics do that in fighting games. Are you saying the only way to avoid an attack should be to never approach an opponent for fear of them grabbing you and being unable to dodge? That sounds like an awful game to me.
Shielding is fine because you can immediately override it with a grab. Grounded rolling and spotdodges are fine because it's inherently easier to bait and read them since they're on the ground.

Airdodging isn't because the constant movement of the midair state makes it more difficult to judge and throw out attacks. There's a reason why most fighting games take steps to make the airborne state unsafe, especially since only the juggle-oriented fighters like MvC and DBFZ allow air blocking.

I think Smash would be a much better designed game if air dodging was replaced with air shielding, especially since it's quite air-based to begin with.

Furthermore, Melee is not a good example of amazing game mechanics. It is only amazing for tournament players, which were never the target audience. Smash is literally marketed as a party game, so going off of what tournament players like, when they aren’t even the target audience, is not, at all, a good argument.
I don't like a lot of Melee's design decisions myself such as manual L-Canceling, mashable meteor canceling, rapid jabs and a good portion of dash attacks sucking... I just appreciate Melee deliberately designing its air dodge to not be overly useful for aerial defense.
 

Linkmain-maybe

Smash Ace
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Messages
690
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SW-1042-6735-2236
Your arguments about it interrupting the flow of battle are literally a strawman. All dodge/guard/shield mechanics do that in fighting games. Are you saying the only way to avoid an attack is to never approach an opponent for fear of them grabbing you and being unable to dodge? That sounds like an awful game to me.

Furthermore, Melee is not a good example of good game mechanics. It is only good for tournament players, which were never the target audience. Smash is literally marketed as a party game, so going off of what tournament players like, when they aren’t even the target audience, is not, at all, a good argument.
Despite accusing him of using a straw man, you used a strawman yourself. Your comment implies that he feels that all defensive options are bad and shouldn’t be used/poorly designed. However, he never said that, he criticized ONLY air dodging.
 

Reksew_Trebla

Smash Cadet
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Oct 9, 2021
Messages
42
Despite accusing him of using a straw man, you used a strawman yourself. Your comment implies that he feels that all defensive options are bad and shouldn’t be used/poorly designed. However, he never said that, he criticized ONLY air dodging.
Incorrect. He criticized disrupting the flow of combat. All defensive options do that. So it really isn’t a leap at all, just a casual step, to go from that to disliking all defensive options.

Took long enough for this discussion to get somewhere.



Shielding is fine because you can immediately override it with a grab. Grounded rolling and spotdodges are fine because it's inherently easier to bait and read them since they're on the ground.
Grabbing in the air would make it so you could suicide kill with characters that shouldn’t be able to do it. Even if you change things up a bit, like with the auto forward throw, that hurts the game balance tremendously for reasons I’ll get into later.

I also disagree with spotdodges being fine. They are just as easy for the average player who gets into Elite Smash to read as air dodges are, at least in my experience of getting screwed either way since I’m usually below average in PVP games (I just really like Smash though, and love playing casually).

Airdodging isn't because the constant movement of the midair state makes it more difficult to judge and throw out attacks. There's a reason why most fighting games take steps to make the airborne state unsafe, especially since only the juggle-oriented fighters like MvC and DBFZ allow air blocking.
Before games that started to mimic Smash, Smash was the only fighting game where the primary way of winning was to ring out an opponent, rather than depleting a life bar. Part of that is falling out of a stage. The game’s inherent nature from that makes the game vastly more unsafe in the air than on the ground, thus it would allow a player to be killed right away if you could effortlessly stop them, say by grabbing them (told you I’d get into it), or continue to hit them without a chance of dodging. So comparing this to other fighter games is a flawed comparison as Smash is inherently different in how it HAS to handle the air combat.

I think Smash would be a much better designed game if air dodging was replaced with air shielding, especially since it's quite air-based to begin with.
And this is where we disagree. Because it is quite air based, it needs better air dodging abilities, to prevent cheap K.O.s.

I don't like a lot of Melee's design decisions myself such as manual L-Canceling, mashable meteor canceling, rapid jabs and a good portion of dash attacks sucking... I just appreciate Melee deliberately designing its air dodge to not be overly useful for aerial defense.
Ah. Guess I misunderstood that. My bad.
 

Linkmain-maybe

Smash Ace
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Incorrect. He criticized disrupting the flow of combat. All defensive options do that. So it really isn’t a leap at all, just a casual step, to go from that to disliking all defensive options.



Grabbing in the air would make it so you could suicide kill with characters that shouldn’t be able to do it. Even if you change things up a bit, like with the auto forward throw, that hurts the game balance tremendously for reasons I’ll get into later.

I also disagree with spotdodges being fine. They are just as easy for the average player who gets into Elite Smash to read as air dodges are, at least in my experience of getting screwed either way since I’m usually below average in PVP games (I just really like Smash though, and love playing casually).


Before games that started to mimic Smash, Smash was the only fighting game where the primary way of winning was to ring out an opponent, rather than depleting a life bar. Part of that is falling out of a stage. The game’s inherent nature from that makes the game vastly more unsafe in the air than on the ground, thus it would allow a player to be killed right away if you could effortlessly stop them, say by grabbing them (told you I’d get into it), or continue to hit them without a chance of dodging. So comparing this to other fighter games is a flawed comparison as Smash is inherently different in how it HAS to handle the air combat.


And this is where we disagree. Because it is quite air based, it needs better air dodging abilities, to prevent cheap K.O.s.


Ah. Guess I misunderstood that. My bad.
Your still wrong. He criticized how air dodging specifically is poorly designed and how air dodging interrupts the flow of gameplay. Yes, going from him not liking airdodge to him not liking all defensive options is a leap. It’s A huge leap in fact. It goes from him saying how he doesn’t like 1 thing, and to saying he dislikes rolling, shielding, parrying, ledge options, teching, and spot dodging. If he didn’t like all defensive options, he would’ve pointed it out in his original post or made several other posts describing why he doesn’t like those defensive options, which he has done neither.
 
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Quillion

Smash Hero
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Messages
5,512
Grabbing in the air would make it so you could suicide kill with characters that shouldn’t be able to do it. Even if you change things up a bit, like with the auto forward throw, that hurts the game balance tremendously for reasons I’ll get into later.
I did address that concern, but thankfully you did counter the addressing.

I also disagree with spotdodges being fine. They are just as easy for the average player who gets into Elite Smash to read as air dodges are, at least in my experience of getting screwed either way since I’m usually below average in PVP games (I just really like Smash though, and love playing casually).
You can make the argument that ground dodges were too good in Smash 4, but at least for Ultimate, staling has done a lot to encourage judicious use of all dodges. Attacking players are much more rewarded for recognizing dodge spammers this time around considering the increasing vulnerability of spammed dodges.

It doesn't excuse air dodging being rather inconducive to aerial followups, but I think dodge staling has made grounded defensive options quite good while also punishing those who abuse them like attack spammers.

Before games that started to mimic Smash, Smash was the only fighting game where the primary way of winning was to ring out an opponent, rather than depleting a life bar. Part of that is falling out of a stage. The game’s inherent nature from that makes the game vastly more unsafe in the air than on the ground, thus it would allow a player to be killed right away if you could effortlessly stop them, say by grabbing them (told you I’d get into it), or continue to hit them without a chance of dodging. So comparing this to other fighter games is a flawed comparison as Smash is inherently different in how it HAS to handle the air combat.

And this is where we disagree. Because it is quite air based, it needs better air dodging abilities, to prevent cheap K.O.s.
Being in the air is mostly unsafe when you're offstage or too close to the top. Otherwise, it depends on how good the opponent's character is at punishing jumping.

I can see how being hit into the air and being killed by a followup could be cheap to some. However, I would argue that the weaker air dodge is another one of Melee's strengths. It allows matches to go by a lot faster since the player in advantage really has an advantage thanks to aerial disadvantage being hard to escape. The modern form of air dodging slows down the game because the user is essentially fully safe for its duration. Then again, this whole debate is one of many between Melee and later Smash games, so I acknowledge YMMV.

Also, while a hypothetical air throw could be cheap by either being a kill throw or an overly-good combo throw, I would want this to be addressed by having an air throw be almost universally designed as a non-killing "get off me" option or combo finisher. Maybe a few characters can have combo air throws, but I would like that to be balanced by only having a very limited percent range of combo potential.
 

Linkmain-maybe

Smash Ace
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I did address that concern, but thankfully you did counter the addressing.



You can make the argument that ground dodges were too good in Smash 4, but at least for Ultimate, staling has done a lot to encourage judicious use of all dodges. Attacking players are much more rewarded for recognizing dodge spammers this time around considering the increasing vulnerability of spammed dodges.

It doesn't excuse air dodging being rather inconducive to aerial followups, but I think dodge staling has made grounded defensive options quite good while also punishing those who abuse them like attack spammers.



Being in the air is mostly unsafe when you're offstage or too close to the top. Otherwise, it depends on how good the opponent's character is at punishing jumping.

I can see how being hit into the air and being killed by a followup could be cheap to some. However, I would argue that the weaker air dodge is another one of Melee's strengths. It allows matches to go by a lot faster since the player in advantage really has an advantage thanks to aerial disadvantage being hard to escape. The modern form of air dodging slows down the game because the user is essentially fully safe for its duration. Then again, this whole debate is one of many between Melee and later Smash games, so I acknowledge YMMV.

Also, while a hypothetical air throw could be cheap by either being a kill throw or an overly-good combo throw, I would want this to be addressed by having an air throw be almost universally designed as a non-killing "get off me" option or combo finisher. Maybe a few characters can have combo air throws, but I would like that to be balanced by only having a very limited percent range of combo potential.
So a 5th throw designed just for the air? Or do kill/combo throws have their knock back increased/decreased?
 

Quillion

Smash Hero
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Sep 17, 2014
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5,512
So a 5th throw designed just for the air? Or do kill/combo throws have their knock back increased/decreased?
Forward throws as they are now are, with few exceptions, get-off-me options, so I would imagine throws would stay the same while air throws would emulate that.
 
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