Change my mind: There's an inverse relationship between importance and uniqueness/being interesting when it comes to prospective characters

[scoobymcsnack]

1. At least Duck Hunt are the only real main characters in that game. Tingle isn't a main character in the Zelda series.

2. You can't judge uniqueness from how little material there is to work with. Beedle has had more appearances than Tingle at this point and you can't call him a unique fighter.

Tingle is still a prominent recurring character, even if he’s not a main. Also, Beedle was in six games and Tingle was in ten (not including Smash games)

 

[Quillion]

1. Whether a character is the main one or not has nothing to do with his potential ''uniquess''. And you forget that Tingle is the star of his own franchise.

Tingle is still a prominent recurring character, even if he’s not a main. Also, Beedle was in six games and Tingle was in ten (not including Smash games)

When I said this:

1. At least Duck Hunt are the only real main characters in that game. Tingle isn't a main character in the Zelda series.

I meant that they can take creative liberties with main characters as they have done with the Animal Crossing duo or WFT. This is because the main characters themselves are needed, not because creative liberties are needed.

They cannot take creative liberties with non-main recurring characters because they are not needed.

 

[Lenidem]

When I said this:



I meant that they can take creative liberties with main characters as they have done with the Animal Crossing duo or WFT. This is because the main characters themselves are needed, not because creative liberties are needed.

They cannot take creative liberties with non-main recurring characters because they are not needed.

So for you, only ''main recurring'' characters are ''important'' enough do deserve a creative moveset? And I guess ''spin-off do not count'' since you still avoid talking about Tingle's own serie... Ok. I thought that by ''interesting'' you were talking about the potential moveset, but sometimes you admit that it can be build from (almost) nothing (Duck Hunter, Villager, WFT) and sometimes you consider it a blasphemy. It's hard to follow you.

 

[Oddball]

They cannot take creative liberties with non-main recurring characters because they are not needed.

Sure they can. Who's gonna stop them?

 

[Quillion]

So for you, only ''main recurring'' characters are ''important'' enough do deserve a creative moveset? And I guess ''spin-off do not count'' since you still avoid talking about Tingle's own serie... Ok. I thought that by ''interesting'' you were talking about the potential moveset, but sometimes you admit that it can be build from (almost) nothing (Duck Hunter, Villager, WFT) and sometimes you consider it a blasphemy. It's hard to follow you.

Here's what I'm saying:

They can only take creative liberties with characters if:

1. They are main characters of their series.

2. Their series has little in the way of material for them to fight with.

Taking creative liberties with Tingle is a "blasphemy" because he's not a main character, and he doesn't do any fighting in his series. And yes, spinoffs don't count.

Sure they can. Who's gonna stop them?

Sakurai probably. He may have not said anything, but actions speak louder.

 

[Lenidem]

Here's what I'm saying:

They can only take creative liberties with characters if:

1. They are main characters of their series.

2. Their series has little in the way of material for them to fight with.

Taking creative liberties with Tingle is a "blasphemy" because he's not a main character, and he doesn't do any fighting in his series. And yes, spinoffs don't count.



Sakurai probably. He may have not said anything, but actions speak louder.

So what you're saying is: ''Only main characters deserve a creative moveset. Unless they are not 'the' main character but just important (Zelda, Peach). But sometimes they don't have to be that important (Rosalina, Bowser Jr). Spin-off do not count. Except sometimes it does (Donkey Kong, Yoshi, Wario). Also mooks are ok.''

...

The title should be ''I won't change my mind, everybody agree to my personal rules''.

Sakurai probably. He may have not said anything, but actions speak louder.

Yeah, because Sakurai's actions have always been so predictable...

 

[Oddball]

Sakurai probably. He may have not said anything, but actions speak louder.

If Sakurai's actions say anything it's "make up whatever fan rules you want about what should be in the game and what shouldn't; I'm going to ignore them and do what I want."

 

[UserKev]

Cranky Kong is both important and can effortlessly be made unique as far as his fighting capabilities in Smash. Rather if even they were to be gimmicky, it'd completely work for Cranky Kong.

 

[Deleted member]

Here's what I'm saying:

They can only take creative liberties with characters if:

1. They are main characters of their series.

2. Their series has little in the way of material for them to fight with.

Taking creative liberties with Tingle is a "blasphemy" because he's not a main character, and he doesn't do any fighting in his series. And yes, spinoffs don't count.



Sakurai probably. He may have not said anything, but actions speak louder.

thank you for creating arbitrary rules to say that tingle doesn't a creative moveset, you could've just said "i don't like tingle" and it would be a better point

 

[Diddy Kong]

I also don't think Tingle is the best choice for a Zelda newcomer. But I won't deny that he would be unique. In fact, he'd be quite unique I'm sure. It's just that I don't see him happening unless Sakurai really wants to troll us. Especially after Piranha Plant, I would sooner expect a Bokoblin to become playable.

 

[Quillion]

Lenidem , Oddball , and @SGoW: Look, don't assume that I hate Tingle; I like him as a character, way more than Beedle in fact (who I am actually kinda sick of and find rather boring). I just have to acknowledge that he has the same issue as Impa; there's no way to make him a fighter in a way that encompasses the spirit of the character AND is actually interesting. And it has to be BOTH the spirit and the character and interesting.

Moving on...

Cranky Kong is both important and can effortlessly be made unique as far as his fighting capabilities in Smash. Rather if even they were to be gimmicky, it'd completely work for Cranky Kong.

With K. Rool in, I think at this point Dixie represents the "important" side and Cranky represents the "unique" side, with "important" winning out in terms of popularity. Dixie continues to be the DKC series' tritagonist while Cranky is always a side character save for his most recent role.

It is kind of a shame though, since in terms of importance, they're not too far from one another.

 

[Oddball]

Look, don't assume that I hate Tingle; I like him as a character, way more than Beedle in fact (who I am actually kinda sick of and find rather boring). I just have to acknowledge that he has the same issue as Impa; there's no way to make him a fighter in a way that encompasses the spirit of the character AND is actually interesting. And it has to be BOTH the spirit and the character and interesting.

You never played Hyrule Warriors have you?

Tingle was both interesting and accurately portrayed.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

Sure they can. Who's gonna stop them?

I suddenly pictured groups of angry Smash fans chanting and holding signs going to where Sakurai lives and mobbing his house.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Lenidem , Oddball , and @SGoW: Look, don't assume that I hate Tingle; I like him as a character, way more than Beedle in fact (who I am actually kinda sick of and find rather boring). I just have to acknowledge that he has the same issue as Impa; there's no way to make him a fighter in a way that encompasses the spirit of the character AND is actually interesting. And it has to be BOTH the spirit and the character and interesting.

Moving on...

Uhm wat? Impa can't be made a fighter that encompasses the spirit of the character and be made interesting? How?

BotW gave a lot to work with in this area. Impa could use the Sheikah weapons of that game for example, as well as the Sheikah tech magic. Master Kogha could use certain Sheikah Slate abilities for examples why wouldn't Impa be able to do such?

I mean that's speaking of a theoretical "young Impa" from BotW. She can also be made using purely Skyward Sword and Ocarina of Time as a base. Her abilities combined would include ; the barrier from the Vs Ghirahim cutscene, the Deku Nut "Vanish", having short sword based on the Impa appearance in the OoT manga, time based abilities because of her role in Skyward Sword, a magical orb projectile as seen in the Vs Ghirahim cutscene, vanishing into the shadows and attacking kinda like Shadow Sneak due to her OoT role as Sage of Shadows... And that's without borrowing from Sheik, which is also still very possible.

With K. Rool in, I think at this point Dixie represents the "important" side and Cranky represents the "unique" side, with "important" winning out in terms of popularity. Dixie continues to be the DKC series' tritagonist while Cranky is always a side character save for his most recent role.

It is kind of a shame though, since in terms of importance, they're not too far from one another.

Cranky is also quite important, but not often playable. He's a reasonable choice. Above Dixie is not adviced, because Dixie also still has a lot to offer and has had her own game, thus is more important..but it's quite close. Cranky could potentially bring a few Arcade elements to his moveset too for example.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

There's a lot more to Bandana Dee that can give him a unique moveset. Just look at Byleth. Nobody expected the developers to throw in the FE weapon triangle plus a bow (and to some extent brawling) into one character. For BWD's potential we have:

• Spear (duh)
• Parasol (used by other Waddle Dees)
• Megaton punch (from Super Star/Ultra)
• Combination abilities (from Star Allies. I once saw someone propose a moveset where BWD had a Monado-like gimmick where BWD could cycle through different elemental abilities [Fire, Water, Bluster, Spark, etc.] that change moveset properties)
• Beam weapons (used by Waddle Doos)
• Giving himself items (or just healing himself; from where he gives the player items in the 3DS games)
• Just about any other item used by a Waddle Dee (within reason)

I should also mention that the new Staff ability from Star Allies (which replaces Spear) has a much different attack set than its predecessor, including an ability where the user thrusts a staff downward and uses it as a giant pogo stick. Not something you'd see a sword wielder ever doing. There's also whatever they may add from Kirby: Canvas Curse, where BWD was a playable character, but I've never played that game so I don't have much to say about it.

So in the end you're wrong, there's a ton of potential for uniqueness in BWD's moveset if he ever got into Smash, I'm just going to operate under the assumption that you've never played a Kirby game with BWD in it and appreciated it to its fullest extent.

 

[scoobymcsnack]

Lenidem , Oddball , and @SGoW: Look, don't assume that I hate Tingle; I like him as a character, way more than Beedle in fact (who I am actually kinda sick of and find rather boring). I just have to acknowledge that he has the same issue as Impa; there's no way to make him a fighter in a way that encompasses the spirit of the character AND is actually interesting. And it has to be BOTH the spirit and the character and interesting.

Moving on...



With K. Rool in, I think at this point Dixie represents the "important" side and Cranky represents the "unique" side, with "important" winning out in terms of popularity. Dixie continues to be the DKC series' tritagonist while Cranky is always a side character save for his most recent role.

It is kind of a shame though, since in terms of importance, they're not too far from one another.

What do you think makes a character important? Because you've said characters aren't important that I would call important, so I'm just curious as to what makes a character important to you?


Honestly, anybody can answer this question as well, I think it's an interesting topic and it's quite relevant to the thread.

 

[UserKev]

Uhm wat? Impa can't be made a fighter that encompasses the spirit of the character and be made interesting? How?

BotW gave a lot to work with in this area. Impa could use the Sheikah weapons of that game for example, as well as the Sheikah tech magic. Master Kogha could use certain Sheikah Slate abilities for examples why wouldn't Impa be able to do such?

I mean that's speaking of a theoretical "young Impa" from BotW. She can also be made using purely Skyward Sword and Ocarina of Time as a base. Her abilities combined would include ; the barrier from the Vs Ghirahim cutscene, the Deku Nut "Vanish", having short sword based on the Impa appearance in the OoT manga, time based abilities because of her role in Skyward Sword, a magical orb projectile as seen in the Vs Ghirahim cutscene, vanishing into the shadows and attacking kinda like Shadow Sneak due to her OoT role as Sage of Shadows... And that's without borrowing from Sheik, which is also still very possible.


Cranky is also quite important, but not often playable. He's a reasonable choice. Above Dixie is not adviced, because Dixie also still has a lot to offer and has had her own game, thus is more important..but it's quite close. Cranky could potentially bring a few Arcade elements to his moveset too for example.

Cranky Kong is literally next in line after Dixie Kong. He's the last DK rep that truly matter due to his legendary Melee cameo and codecs alone. He doesn't outright desperately even need to be made playable but he'd make sense.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Cranky Kong is literally next in line after Dixie Kong. He's the last DK rep that truly matter due to his legendary Melee cameo and codecs alone. He doesn't outright desperately even need to be made playable but he'd make sense.

Funky Kong fans = triggered.

 

[crazybenjamin]

Funky Kong fans = triggered.

Funky is a weird case, he's more popular among MKWii fans compared to DKC fans.

Though it's no different from me maining Inkling in Smash because of MK8D.

 

[Quillion]

Uhm wat? Impa can't be made a fighter that encompasses the spirit of the character and be made interesting? How?

There just isn't much to Impa or Tingle. You said give her the Sheikah Slate abilities earlier, but that will just make her outdated after the BotW duology (I'm not holding onto that "series" lasting after two games, at least storywise). You also say give her Sheik's abilities, and that will just make people miss Sheik like how I miss Ganondorf's elbow or Bowser's old animations.

There's a lot more to Bandana Dee that can give him a unique moveset. Just look at Byleth. Nobody expected the developers to throw in the FE weapon triangle plus a bow (and to some extent brawling) into one character. For BWD's potential we have:

• Spear (duh)
• Parasol (used by other Waddle Dees)
• Megaton punch (from Super Star/Ultra)
• Combination abilities (from Star Allies. I once saw someone propose a moveset where BWD had a Monado-like gimmick where BWD could cycle through different elemental abilities [Fire, Water, Bluster, Spark, etc.] that change moveset properties)
• Beam weapons (used by Waddle Doos)
• Giving himself items (or just healing himself; from where he gives the player items in the 3DS games)
• Just about any other item used by a Waddle Dee (within reason)

I should also mention that the new Staff ability from Star Allies (which replaces Spear) has a much different attack set than its predecessor, including an ability where the user thrusts a staff downward and uses it as a giant pogo stick. Not something you'd see a sword wielder ever doing. There's also whatever they may add from Kirby: Canvas Curse, where BWD was a playable character, but I've never played that game so I don't have much to say about it.

So in the end you're wrong, there's a ton of potential for uniqueness in BWD's moveset if he ever got into Smash, I'm just going to operate under the assumption that you've never played a Kirby game with BWD in it and appreciated it to its fullest extent.

I have played all the mainline modern Kirby games, thank you very much, and I still don't think BWD's moveset is that interesting.

This goes for Impa, Tingle, and Bandana Dee: compositing a character out of elements of others (even "within reason") and making a moveset out of nothing is just bad form nowadays in Smash. If you have to resort to doing that, it's a sign that the characters in question are just not interesting to begin with. Sure, they can probably get in on importance alone, but they're not going to get any fans for their blandness and might even cause a Ganondorf/Wario situation where they're portrayed in a way that people don't like.

Only exception to the above would be the main characters of non-combat series like Wii Fit or Animal Crossing, and even then, they get by on referencing a lot of canon abilities with WFT attacking with yoga or Villager still carrying a lot of items.

What do you think makes a character important? Because you've said characters aren't important that I would call important, so I'm just curious as to what makes a character important to you?

What makes a character important is how prominent they are in their whole series, not just to one game in particular. Sure you can argue Skull Kid, Marx, or Geno are important, but most will say that they are important to their games in particular, not to their whole series.

When I was talking about Cranky though, I said that he represents the "unique" side relative to Dixie. Dixie and Cranky are both important, though, but Dixie edges out in importance.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

I have played all the mainline modern Kirby games, thank you very much, and I still don't think BWD's moveset is that interesting.

This goes for Impa, Tingle, and Bandana Dee: compositing a character out of elements of others (even "within reason") and making a moveset out of nothing is just bad form nowadays in Smash. If you have to resort to doing that, it's a sign that the characters in question are just not interesting to begin with. Sure, they can probably get in on importance alone, but they're not going to get any fans for their blandness and might even cause a Ganondorf/Wario situation where they're portrayed in a way that people don't like.

Only exception to the above would be the main characters of non-combat series like Wii Fit or Animal Crossing, and even then, they get by on referencing a lot of canon abilities with WFT attacking with yoga or Villager still carrying a lot of items.

You do realize many characters in this game are composed of "elements of others", right? Ness and Lucas take their PK abilities from other characters. Byleth uses the Hero's Relics of the other three lords from 3H. Duck Hunt uses attacks from other arcade games. Meta Knight (arguably) uses some of Sword Kirby's moves. Peach/Daisy's Turnip comes from Mario using the Turnip. Simon and Richter use each other's projectiles. And let's not get started on the Miis. It's not unheard of or a bad thing in any way. In reality it's accepted by just about everyone that the developers have to cut corners in order to make movesets as unique as possible. It's only in egregious instances like Ganondorf or ZSS do people get mad about comepletely made-up movesets.

This thread is basically you claiming certain characters either are or are not important by a seemingly arbitrary logic, and thus forming an inverse relationship between that character's importance and their potential to be unique in Smash. Who died and had you play God? Because last time I checked, the developers don't give a rat's rump about "uniqueness." They design characters however they feel like it, and fan made movesets typically pale in comparison to the character's actual design. They could make a character you view as bland with a moveset that blows everyone out of the water.

However important or unique a character is happens to be purely subjective. I'm getting flashbacks of a specific user who argued Goku and Hastune Miku should be in Smash because of their "importance" to gaming and tried to validate this using an "iconicness" chart. Dude, it's OK if you think a character is bland or unimportant, but don't make a "change my mind" thread and expect people to agree with your warped logic.

 

[MaddaD]

^ This. Thread can end now.

Dude, it's OK if you think a character is bland or unimportant, but don't make a "change my mind" thread and expect people to agree with your warped logic.

Ol' Quillion here once tried his mental gymnastics for attempting to explain why old Ganon was better than his Smash incarnation and every counterargument for his points about Ultimate Ganon having a worse design was met with the equivalent of "but new Ganon sucks because (insert minute point here)"

I think Ryuu put it best:

You are impressionable and you care too much about what other people do, so you decided that you can't enjoy something unless you are only one doing it.

 

[Oddball]

This goes for Impa, Tingle, and Bandana Dee: compositing a character out of elements of others (even "within reason") and making a moveset out of nothing is just bad form nowadays in Smash. If you have to resort to doing that, it's a sign that the characters in question are just not interesting to begin with. Sure, they can probably get in on importance alone, but they're not going to get any fans for their blandness and might even cause a Ganondorf/Wario situation where they're portrayed in a way that people don't like.

If you're going to try to tell me Captain Falcon is bland and isn't interesting just because his moves are made up and based on nothing, I'm just going to assume you're lying to me.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I'll go and try and be a bit more flexible in thought here and agree for a minute with some things that OP said. In terms of newcomers for certain big franchises, there's not much unique content left.

I mean yes technically Bandana Dee would have a unique moveset, but will likely borrow a lot from existing characters. A Kirby model, Peach Up B, Byleth F Air and B Air, weapon thrust D Air like Toon Link, and maybe some attack from the Kirby characters like Kirby F Tilt, Kirby N Air and Meta Knight dash attack.. it all would fit well. Bandana Dee would likely not be a high effort newcomer, but rather borrow from a couple characters. Impa could have this as well, a few moves from Sheik (aerials and tilts), Link's Bomb , Greninja's Shadow Sneak... Even Dixie Kong; unique dash attack, unique grab mechanics based of DK's, hair grab, Diddy Aerials, Bubblegum Popgun, Spinning Kong, unique stats compared to Diddy like less speed and weight, and again she'd be presented well enough. Toad is probably just as easy, Peach neutral B except using his own body, Turpins, a Mario Kart based attack working like Bowser Jr.'s Side B, a lot of Mario's regular attacks, and he'd function.

All these characters are key characters to their franchise however. And I think we should request them as "low effort newcomers" that take up 50% of a regular newcomers work, or potentially even less. Kind of like semi clones but with slightly more work done to them.

 

[Quillion]

I'll admit that my view has changed thanks to this discussion. It is entirely possible for characters to be made unique when they don't have much material to work with.

I will still argue, however, that when it comes to "pre-built" uniqueness (as in belonging to that character alone and not composited from another character), less important characters generally have more important characters beat.

I'm bringing this up again because for ARMS, we got a unique, but unimportant character. Yes, despite their claims that "everyone is the main character" in ARMS, they still had Spring Man and Ribbon Girl front and center most of the time in marketing, while Min Min didn't get that luxury. But it's clearly her uniqueness that makes her the favorite of Yabuki and one of Sakurai's favorites as well.

Anyway, I hope Min Min will lead to more unique, but not important characters getting in Smash. Skull Kid, Marx, Geno, any Fire Emblem non-Lord seem more fun than Impa, Tingle, Bandanna Dee, Waluigi, Capt. Toad, or any future Fire Emblem Lord could ever hope to be, even if the latter six would get made-up stuff or composite abilities from other characters.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

What I found about Min Min to be the most exciting is the way she contrasts with Byleth on almost every level. Just about everyone was aware of the possibility of another Fire Emblem lord being hamfisted into the game, especially likely was the chance of it being the protagonist of three houses. Add the fact that the bar was incredibly high for the last character from pack one, and that there was a sea of possible newcomers that could have just as easily served Nintendo's interests, and you end up with the literal most vanilla choice Nintendo could have asked Sakurai to go with.

Min Min is proof of several concepts that, so far, we haven't seen actual confirmation of yet.

• Nintendo is aware that they don't have to represent a series with its basic poster child mascot (Spring Man in this case)
• Spirits officially don't deconfirm
• The developers really do look to character popularity and other creators' wishes when picking fighters (Sakurai said in the direct that he asked the ARMS creator who he wanted, and he said "I want Min Min").

With all of this in mind, I'm really excited for Min Min, both because I can't wait to play as her, but also because she's a good sign the second DLC pass will be much better.