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- Thread starter Cactuar
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ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
I've heard that the best chance you have is to DI the u-throw one way and smash DI the uair the opposite way.
Bones0
Smash Legend
It depends on %. I have very little experience SDIing out, but I have a lot of experience uthrow-uairing Marth as Fox. The first thing you should focus on is making it hard to single hit. At some mid %s, it is really easy for Fox to single hit uair if you DI the throw. At other %s, not DIing makes it super easy. If they aren't that good at uthrow uairing and consequently won't be going for single hits, you can take the easy road and just DI every throw and SDI the opposite direction. Against better opponents, that will only work at %s when dashing into a FH will usually cause them to overshoot for the second hit. At some %s, not DIing seems better because when they are coming from straight below you and can't single hit, they pretty much have to guess which side to drift to with their second hit. I think if they come from straight below you and go straight up you can avoid it SDIing in either direction as long as you do it properly. If anyone has a partner then a simple test should show if that's the case.
clowsui
Smash Legend
Demo Kirby Guide
look it up
that's the basic method
look it up
that's the basic method
Yeah I've seen the Demo Kirby Guide but I was wondering how other people do it. The people who get it like super consistently. After being told to try and use the C-stick as well as the direction stick I've been getting more success with it but I just wanted to see how other people did it I guess. Fox has a way to still guess which way they SDI right?
Bones0
Smash Legend
The C-stick will only ever help when you want your trajectory DI and SDI to be different than your ASDI. Are you ASDIing diagonally or something? If you're holding them the same way, you're wasting your time.
SwiftBass
Smash Hero
zoso is the most consistent person I've seen do this
He does not use the c-stick he just times the direction with the control stick. Of course its:
DI one direction(preferably behind to try and force turnaround animation), then smash stick in opposite direction. The key is to concentrate on reacting on the first hit. Tons of people mash when thrown or end up reacting to 2nd hit since the first one is very subtle. Its tough.
I still think that fox has to "mess up" to a certain degree. And when I say mess up I mean NOT be frame perfect. There are some instances where fox does it close to frame perfect and it is hard to smash DI but I find with most people I play, that the more sloppy I am the more I see it happen. Alot of it comes down to where fox is placing the hit-box as well. The hit-box is pretty large for the entire move so fox can sometimes get away with not placing it right on top of marth and other char. I mentioned ZOSO because no matter how I am playing it appears that he can do it consistently on me. I just back air his marth
and throw in uair every once in a while to keep him honest.
He does not use the c-stick he just times the direction with the control stick. Of course its:
DI one direction(preferably behind to try and force turnaround animation), then smash stick in opposite direction. The key is to concentrate on reacting on the first hit. Tons of people mash when thrown or end up reacting to 2nd hit since the first one is very subtle. Its tough.
I still think that fox has to "mess up" to a certain degree. And when I say mess up I mean NOT be frame perfect. There are some instances where fox does it close to frame perfect and it is hard to smash DI but I find with most people I play, that the more sloppy I am the more I see it happen. Alot of it comes down to where fox is placing the hit-box as well. The hit-box is pretty large for the entire move so fox can sometimes get away with not placing it right on top of marth and other char. I mentioned ZOSO because no matter how I am playing it appears that he can do it consistently on me. I just back air his marth
and throw in uair every once in a while to keep him honest.
Unfortunately, this is still a problem for most Marths, including myself.
Yes, it seems logical to me to DI behind Fox. Should I be doing this at all percents? And the next question is, when do I SDI the other way? Is it just before the first hit lands? As it lands? Once I hear the noise? And is there any way I can practice besides having a Fox uthrow+uair me forever?
Yes, it seems logical to me to DI behind Fox. Should I be doing this at all percents? And the next question is, when do I SDI the other way? Is it just before the first hit lands? As it lands? Once I hear the noise? And is there any way I can practice besides having a Fox uthrow+uair me forever?
Tee ay eye
Smash Hero
DFSDNJKFJKNSDFSDF i want to slaughter a newborn when people think that c-stick is used for SDI
the only role that c-stick plays in DI mechanics is ASDI (automatic smash DI)
and even then, the control stick can be used for ASDI anyway, the c-stick just outprioritizes the control stick in that regard
control stick has 100% exclusive control over regular DI
and control stick has 100% exclusive control over regular smash DI
and c-stick > control stick for automatic smash DI
the only role that c-stick plays in DI mechanics is ASDI (automatic smash DI)
and even then, the control stick can be used for ASDI anyway, the c-stick just outprioritizes the control stick in that regard
control stick has 100% exclusive control over regular DI
and control stick has 100% exclusive control over regular smash DI
and c-stick > control stick for automatic smash DI
Bones0
Smash Legend
SwiftBass
Smash Hero
the SDI is as the hit lands. The first frame that the first hit touches you. The hit is only active for a few frames so the input for SDI is a very tight window. You should almost always DI behind him on the uthrow because that most of the time forces fox to go into turnaround animation which increases the margin of error for him. It gives fox less time to place the uair hit-box on you perfectly(well close to perfectly as he can get). The better he places the hit-box on you the less likely you are to escape.
this^
control stick capable of everything c-stick can do. c-stick properties in general are great for buffering but besides that control stick has you covered.
leffen
Smash Champion
I think Cstick asdi is completely separate from normal ASDI, at least that is what Ajp_anton taught me
Anand
Smash Journeyman
What do you mean by "completely separate from"? Do you mean you can do both and they'll have an additive effect? (To the best of my knowledge, C-stick ASDI overrides Control Stick ASDI, as some previous posters have said.)
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
What if you use both sticks as Bones suggested at different timings in order to have more chance of SDIing at the right time?
Tee ay eye
Smash Hero
i don't think that's true, but if it is, that's really interesting
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Wait so let's clarify for a second. How does automatic smash DI operate differently from regular smash DI?
MT_
Smash Ace
ASDI (can be buffered with c-stick) only takes effect at the very end of hit lag I think whereas regular SDI can be inputted and take effect at any point during hit lag.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Okay I got it now. Thanks for explaining.
BTmoney
a l l b e c o m e $
Why no upB OoS versus shield pressure. Why no Samus?
So yeah, if you do it as sloppy as possible (and upB OoS isn't even hard) it'll take 9 frames from beginning (jumping OoS) to connecting the hit of upB. If you do it as fast as possible it takes 5 (or 6 if you are a small child) frames.
Comparably nair OoS for Sheik is 7 frames. Also keep in mind the shield pressure data assumes perfection, and I don't think many players if any are frame perfect all of the time when involving multiple movements.
If I'm not doing that right let me know. But why no upB? Why no Samus? Just don't do it on FD lol
edit:
"Because grab takes 7 frames" is not an answer since grabbing at marth-kill-percents is useless most of the time
S/o to makers of data
Dolphin Slash
Total: 39
Hit: 5-10
Invulnerable: 5
Landfallspeciallag: 34
----------------------------------------------------------
Jump: airborne on frame 5
Comparably nair OoS for Sheik is 7 frames. Also keep in mind the shield pressure data assumes perfection, and I don't think many players if any are frame perfect all of the time when involving multiple movements.
If I'm not doing that right let me know. But why no upB? Why no Samus? Just don't do it on FD lol
edit:
"Because grab takes 7 frames" is not an answer since grabbing at marth-kill-percents is useless most of the time
S/o to makers of data
As someone who doesn't really play Marth, my only assumption is that compared to Samus, Marth is like a ******** duck in midair compared to Samus and when Samus hits the ground after up-B, she doesn't have like a bajillion years of lag for the other character to ****.
And the payoff for this risk ain't great until higher percents. And even then, up-b for marth only really knocks them away with the initial hitbox, scratching them on the way up barely does anything to them.
but again, not a marth player here
BTmoney
a l l b e c o m e $
How would you hit them with the weaker hit boxes if they are pressuring your shield lol?
How could you been in that position lol?
upB is a good killing move. It should just not be used under normal circumstances like falcons fsmash.
There is also of course the conventional option which is rolling away (which takes 4 frames before becoming invincible) with 12+ frames of lag that can lead to punishment and doesn't help you deal with that dirty fox troll-lol-loling at 179% because you are marf.
Yes whiffing an upB is horrible but in my mind you shouldn't ever whiff it. You might get hit by an aerial if you time it poorly or misread shield pressure mixups but it should always hit. You can even reverse it.
I want input on this
EDIT:
Ha, being right-ish feels good.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9gValB9Ksc
As you can see, it forces your opponent to opt for middle or late nairs. Early nairs can get shield grabbed or upB'd after they hit as the frame data allows us to see in my previous post. Is Marf a more jank samus?
How could you been in that position lol?
upB is a good killing move. It should just not be used under normal circumstances like falcons fsmash.
There is also of course the conventional option which is rolling away (which takes 4 frames before becoming invincible) with 12+ frames of lag that can lead to punishment and doesn't help you deal with that dirty fox troll-lol-loling at 179% because you are marf.
Yes whiffing an upB is horrible but in my mind you shouldn't ever whiff it. You might get hit by an aerial if you time it poorly or misread shield pressure mixups but it should always hit. You can even reverse it.
I want input on this
EDIT:
Ha, being right-ish feels good.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9gValB9Ksc
As you can see, it forces your opponent to opt for middle or late nairs. Early nairs can get shield grabbed or upB'd after they hit as the frame data allows us to see in my previous post. Is Marf a more jank samus?
Bing
Smash Master
Im just curious, theres a person in my region who uses a really campy Peach, they just throw turnips(calls them radishes) all day. So what i've been doing is Dash Dancing just inside their turnip range and jabbing the turnip, catching and throwing them back. That or If im on a stage like Yoshi's, Battlefield or dreamland I just move around the platforms looking for an opening. So what am I doing wrong?
^ don't let them pull turnips in the first place. Dash dance right outside their dash attack range and if they pull a turnip you can punish with run in grab/ dtilt or dash attack at higher percents. Don't catch turnips imho, marth throwing items is just..... Not very good.
Bing
Smash Master
I normally use Fox vs Peach but at the last tournament I was really pissed(I was T.O and people were constantly in my ear) so I played mad aggro and dumb and lost 2-1(to someone I should have 2-0'd) So now I play way too safe against Peach. I don't like domestic Violence 
But yeah I abuse the pull if possible but I hate being too close unless its obvious.
But yeah I abuse the pull if possible but I hate being too close unless its obvious.
Yo nah man Dtilt is just mad good for lots of reasonz. Like being a move that looks like you're ****ing someone ROFL
this, and I'm waiting for discussion on it.
why? should one be preferred to use over another? if it's situational, are there any rules for the situations(generally?)
Up-B is riskier to miss with than grab but hey if you get the read then pop it off.
Also note in that video that shine is probably fresh. Stale shines you may still be able to up-B those Nairs/shines.
BTmoney
a l l b e c o m e $
Yo, good point on the fresh/stale shine. I was playing with some Sami (plural samus mains) and they were talking about how FD is a bad stage for samus vs spacies because it makes escaping shield pressure with her upB horribly unsafe since there are no platforms or chances to ledge cancel the special fall lag. Same concept for marth, I just don't think marth players metagamed the move enough. At low percent I say this is unsafe even if you hit becsuse of the lack of knockback. Mid and high percent I say go for it as well.
Good looks though, I'll be practicing this some later this week.
Good looks though, I'll be practicing this some later this week.
Bing
Smash Master
Well if you're looking for an Up-B out of shield but don't like the knockback, you could always reverse Up-B. I use Up-B out of shield occasionally, its situational though.
MT_
Smash Ace
In most situations that you can up-B OoS you'll also be able to grab. At mid to mid-high percents, a grab will (should) give you so much more than up-B and thus up-B is a bad option a la Umbreon theory (it's not necessarily bad but grab is better). If it's at kill percents then yeah up-B if you know it's going to hit. It's not always obvious when it'll hit though and you risk getting hit off stage without a jump.
Also I heard that you can up-B OoS before Fox can shine if he does a drill->shine on your shield. I'm not 100% this is true but it could be worth exploring?
Also I heard that you can up-B OoS before Fox can shine if he does a drill->shine on your shield. I'm not 100% this is true but it could be worth exploring?
BTmoney
a l l b e c o m e $
Well that's just the difference of 5(4) frames versus 7 frames.
Technically it's 4 frames for the up B since you are invincible on the 5th frame so it doesn't matter what the fox wants to do in this situation. But if the fox were to be perfect he could get his one frame of shine invincibility to over lap with the 5th frame up your upB invulnerability and because you did not damage the fox you would whiff and then the fox would TAS you to death with his theorycrafted combos. That's too situational and negligible though.
Umbreon theory, which is superior theory
, also would state that you should realize when upB OoS is advisable. If you can get a shield grab on a fox at 0%, you should chain grab them and attempt to carry them across the stage into a tipper or edge guard. If the fox is at 150% (or high enough so you can't follow up grabs) you should not shield grab, you should upB and just kill them or knock them off the stage. Just realize that if you can shield grab, you CAN upB but that does not work in the opposite way. Meaning that you cannot shield grab all the time you can up B (4-5 vs 7 frames). This essentially makes shield pressure no longer safe when the spacey is at high percent.And L-cancled dair has 8 frames of lag, so yeah in that case you can get either. I'm not saying upB is the end all solution btw, it's just under used.
EDIT:
Does reverse upB always tipper?? I always noticed I get more powerful upBs when I reverse them.
Reverse up-B is stronger than forward up-B but doesn't always tipper.
MT_
Smash Ace
For up-B OoS I think you are not counting the one frame necessary within jumping to cancel your shield before you can actually input up-B. Effectively the hitbox from shielding will come out on frame 6 not frame 5; grab will come one frame later (and this is assuming the up-B is frame perfect which probably isn't that hard but definitely harder than grab).
Also I am pretty sure there are some spacings very close inside of Marth that up-B will do that you can grab but up-B will do that weird upward-trajectory knock back.
I personally don't really think up-B is underused but I can see why you feel that way. Most Marth mains have explored a fair amount but because of the risks involved if you whiff it or even get a poor hitbox from it I think most of us have resorted to only using it when we are 100% sure that it will hit (Falco dsmashes your shield or something). But like I said before, it's not always easy to know when it will hit especially with how (good) players nowadays are constantly mixing up their pressure timings and stuff.
Also saying that up-B OoS makes spacey pressure unsafe at high percents indicates some level of misunderstanding on how spacey pressure works... Are you sure you are factoring in shield stun when doing your frame data calculations?
Also I am pretty sure there are some spacings very close inside of Marth that up-B will do that you can grab but up-B will do that weird upward-trajectory knock back.
I personally don't really think up-B is underused but I can see why you feel that way. Most Marth mains have explored a fair amount but because of the risks involved if you whiff it or even get a poor hitbox from it I think most of us have resorted to only using it when we are 100% sure that it will hit (Falco dsmashes your shield or something). But like I said before, it's not always easy to know when it will hit especially with how (good) players nowadays are constantly mixing up their pressure timings and stuff.
Also saying that up-B OoS makes spacey pressure unsafe at high percents indicates some level of misunderstanding on how spacey pressure works... Are you sure you are factoring in shield stun when doing your frame data calculations?
Elyssa Xey Hexen
Broken!
- Joined
- Aug 6, 2008
- Messages
- 19,346
I couldn't find the specific video of it, but I thought there was a match where Sethlon or maybe neo only Dtilts as roy. Literally, only uses that against someone grounded.
Marth could put that to better use having the better dtilt.
FrootLoop
Smash Lord
Bing
Smash Master
A Roy using only dtilt on a grounded opponent doesnt surprise me at all. Roy have very few options in like, every situation, Dtilt is the combo starter, comes out fast and spaces well(So like Marth's but starts combos instead of gimping)I couldn't find the specific video of it, but I thought there was a match where Sethlon or maybe neo only Dtilts as roy. Literally, only uses that against someone grounded.
Marth could put that to better use having the better dtilt.
BTmoney
a l l b e c o m e $
Unsafe in the sense that at best there is a 4 frame gap between hits where you are free to attempt to do whatever. The smallest gap in shield pressure a space animal can make
(say fox) is shine->JC->nair as soon as air born. The problem with doing that is that you cannot place any more hitboxes on shield once you commit to a raising nair. So once the nair comes out, you have to reach the peak of your jump and fast fall frame perfect which. Doing so creates 4 frames of lag from shine to nair but 11 frames from nair to next action. So if they early nair that means they can get hit as they fall down no matter what they do. I'm using kirbykaze's guide to shield pressure (which assumes frame perfection) when I make a claim.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=278616
If they don't opt for early nair, you can just do a normal shield pressure punish of your choosing because that leaves 8+ frames of freedom for you to do whatever you want.
Ultimately, if you read the pressure (or guess) then they are dead. That's what I mean.
Also you can upB on the same frame you being to jump meaning you do not need to be in jump squat for 1 frame then upB. You can do them both in the same frame. Keep in mind that once gain you are invincible on the 5th frame, so you sort of steal a frame back if you don't do it perfectly. Basically, you only need to find a 4 frame hole in the shield pressure because the 5th frame of upB you are already invincible and then going any further would be repeating exactly what I said in the collapsed part of my other post lol.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9gValB9Ksc
Does this vid explain it perfectly? If they use an aerial at any point they eventually lose. If it's an immediate nair then get punished on the way down. If it's anything else you can beat it flat out
Yeah you may not frame perfect an upB OoS but if you can't do that, for what reason can your opponent apply frame perfect shield pressure? Even if you account for the fact that neither of you will be frame perfect all the time you just add X amount of frames for both players (assuming equal reaction time) in which case marth would still win under the given circumstances.
I am fairly certain the links can back up what I am saying. The only thing that is questionable is indeed that weird upward trajectory hitbox like you mentioned. Reverse upB's seem to do that less or hardly ever. I also get that no one is perfect but it should be explored. At worst this completely beats late aerial shield pressure mix ups. It even beats shine->JC->grab.
The point is that it is impossible for a space animal to actually cover all options. Unless of course they multi shine and lock you into shield (they have either 1 or 2 frames including hit lag and the JC in order to do that, but good thing this isn't TAS).
I think that's fairly deep but the point is upB gives you frame advantage when used correctly and should be explored :o
/rant lol
D
Deleted member
Guest
stop going to battlefield game 1
Bing
Smash Master
I hate battlefield as marth
actually I basically dislike battlefield in general.
actually I basically dislike battlefield in general.
BTmoney
a l l b e c o m e $
I hate it as fox, abhor it as falco. I don't think it's as bad as one is inclined to believe though for Marth. It's just not one of his best stages.