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Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

NINJAxKOALA

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Mew2King has lost the last 8 or so matches on FOD against Mango as sheik/marth vs. spacies. His punishment game is really subpar because he relies on tippered up-tilts and re-grabs on his combo game. It's a trend that goes beyond him "playing bad" at one tourney.
What would be a more optimal punish game Tafo? Not arguing just curious. Love the Tafo Talks btw
 

TaFoKiNtS

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Not quite sure to be honest, but M2K seems largely interested in forcing fox/falco on a platform at mid %. This works on Battlefield/yoshi's/ps because you can get that strong hit to pop them up or get another tech chase situation. However, he seems to get lots of weak hits that are CC-able on the FOD platforms. He needs to learn to somehow use something other than weak-utilt. I'm not sure what specifically.
 

Dr Peepee

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Mew2King has lost the last 8 or so matches on FOD against Mango as sheik/marth vs. spacies. His punishment game is really subpar because he relies on tippered up-tilts and re-grabs on his combo game. It's a trend that goes beyond him "playing bad" at one tourney.
I don't know why his sheik matters here....?

I'm watching m2k mango from TBH4 GFs and game 1 looks like he's missing everything and it has nothing to do with FoD platforms. Then I watched game 4 on Dreamland so it's the same matchup and it looks like he's just missing stuff again. I have held the opinion for some time that m2k has been missing stuff more lately(at least past year) and his punish isn't immaculate on any level, including FD sometimes. I still think it looked worse overall at EVO, but I did not think I had to worry about expressing he had been missing more lately.

If you'd like, I feel reasonably confident I could go through m2ks recent sets vs Mango and point these things out with timestamps to show it's not simply an FoD thing.

What I'm trying to say here is I believe it's less of a punish thing and more of a neutral thing(m2k's neutral could be weaker here while mango's is stronger...or some variation). Or perhaps Mango hits harder on FoD...that part I do not know and have not looked into.
 

Binx

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PP I have so much respect for you taking your time to come and teach us things, I don't have any questions but I learn so much when I read your posts and I just want you to know how much I appreciate you taking the time. I really need to sit and grind out the tech skill and improve my punish game, there is so much more I could learn if I really spent the time to learn the basics better.

I think it really speaks volumes about the depth of this game that after 10 years people(like me) are still "bad" at it =D

As an IC main switching to Marth the reason Marth beats ICs so hard is that his optimal spacing range is the same as their worst spacing range, if you are far enough away that ICs cant hit you but close enough to where they have to wavedash to be in range to hit you there is a huge telegraph for basically everything they do, Marths dtilt and fair both fall in this range. Also he can gimp Nana pretty easily with weak fairs into grabs into spikes since she DIs like a level 3 computer, so if ICs are ever separated its just a rough ride for them.

I still occasionally get grabbed by the better ICs players in Oregon but once I get more experience with Marth I think its going to be a really easy match up if I just don't rush it.
 
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Dr Peepee

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Thank you =)

Indeed that is what I typically hear from many ICs players when I ask, but I find dealing with desyncs more troublesome than I probably should out of that position. I think I just need to learn more about ICs and need to zone more instead of abuse movement with Marth.
 

overstepss

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Apr 12, 2015
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Hey, PP, I have a question:
Since Apex 2013 when you first brought out your marth vs armada's peach in what ways has the marth-peach match up evolved? What counter strategies have been developed by both sides?

On a related note, it seems that you've been more aerial heavy lately in the match-up and I had a few questions about that:
- When you chose to aerial in neutral as opposed to dd, grab, dtilt, which options are you hoping to cover?
- What makes you chose neutral air over forward air in certain neutral situations and vice versa? (Also generally for Marth).
 
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Dr Peepee

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Marth has begun using Dtilt as a safe poke. This causes Peach to force dash attack or WD back(adaptations that came at apex 2013 but were more refined afterward) and FC Bair(seen last summer starting SKTAR 3). Marth gets mileage out of Peach crouching less then since Dtilt crouched is little gain and Peach is more prone to jump or she will get poked, so he can aerial then. This is where more of my aerials came from at Apex 2015. There's more to it, but this is the main stuff I'd say.

I honestly did way too much scrubby aerials at Apex <.< but I get away with it because my DD/Dtilt game is so good.

I aerial in neutral presently because I want to throw out a quick move that has a better combo starting chance(than Dtilt) and will also beat out any jump option(usually) while also likely being safe on shield. I want to start using aerials more for zoning(I've wanted to do this for years now) but I always find new movement stuff to play with lol.

Nair is neat because it beats CC cleaner than Fair, can set up tech chase situations, and if someone is on a platform it can set up combos super well even at lower percents. That said, most of my Nairs at Apex were not so good and kept missing but they had an interesting effect of baiting out counterattacks so they weren't totally useless.

I prefer Fair when I need to hit higher than Nair(Fair will cover the top and also diagonal front of Marth as well as what Nair covers) and Fair also gets the strong hitbox before Nair so speed is sometimes an issue as well. Fair is also just a better combo starter on average.
 
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overstepss

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Very insightful! This helps a lot PP!

So it seems like to me in regards to the aerial business in the Peach match up that the reason one would prefer them over dtilt, is more of a hard read scenario to lead to better combos as opposed to covering disjoint options.

Of course, there's the issue of jumping, which dtilt doesn't cover, but I think (I want to verify this), that peach's jump is too slow to beat a defensive/stationary dtilt. Perhaps she can beat offensive ones. As opposed to someone like fox who can nair if he predicts a dtilt. [Of course though, if they're already in the air, then dtilt won't be safe.]
 
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Strong Badam

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I really enjoyed reading that last post, Kevin. I like how you're able to verbalize these decisions and rationalize them so succinctly. Keep up the good work dude.
 

Dr Peepee

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Very insightful! This helps a lot PP!

So it seems like to me in regards to the aerial business in the Peach match up that the reason one would prefer them over dtilt, is more of a hard read scenario to lead to better combos as opposed to covering disjoint options.

Of course, there's the issue of jumping, which dtilt doesn't cover, but I think (I want to verify this), that peach's jump is too slow to beat a defensive/stationary dtilt. Perhaps she can beat offensive ones. As opposed to someone like fox who can nair if he predicts a dtilt. [Of course though, if they're already in the air, then dtilt won't be safe.]
It's not really a hard read. I mean, whatever that term implies. I think the word "conditioning" captures things more accurately. I am not making a risky play if the remaining plays you have to make after what I do either do not hurt me, are unlikely to hurt me, or I win right? That is essentially what is happening there.

Now, if you're saying Peach has to choose a big commitment action(relatively high risk and hopefully high reward) to beat what Marth is doing then I would agree that is accurate.

I wrote some more stuff after this but I felt it made everything confusing so it's probably better to leave it with this.

I really enjoyed reading that last post, Kevin. I like how you're able to verbalize these decisions and rationalize them so succinctly. Keep up the good work dude.
Thanks man! I like tryin to bring the goodies to the new gen. I'm hoping to write informative guides/etc that will have clear and concise language so people can get the most benefit out of it.
 

The Maven

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I just played in a local tournament yesterday, and the biggest thing I took away from it is that shield felt like a terrible option. I got a lot more out of trying to use evasive movement instead of eating attacks with shield.

Probably not an insightful observation by any means but whatever.
 

overstepss

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It's not really a hard read. I mean, whatever that term implies. I think the word "conditioning" captures things more accurately. I am not making a risky play if the remaining plays you have to make after what I do either do not hurt me, are unlikely to hurt me, or I win right? That is essentially what is happening there.

Now, if you're saying Peach has to choose a big commitment action(relatively high risk and hopefully high reward) to beat what Marth is doing then I would agree that is accurate.

I wrote some more stuff after this but I felt it made everything confusing so it's probably better to leave it with this.


Thanks man! I like tryin to bring the goodies to the new gen. I'm hoping to write informative guides/etc that will have clear and concise language so people can get the most benefit out of it.
Hmmm I'm a bit confused here. Primarily in understanding what options Peach has that beat stationary dtilt (and along those lines, if I condition her with stationary dtilts, if using an aerial becomes the best thing to do to counter her options). I'm going to practice with a local Peach main in my area and once I have a better understanding I'll come back and dig deeper. I definitely echo StrongBad sentiments! This is immensely helpful! :)
 

overstepss

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Great! Exactly what I was wondering. I wasn't sure if fair/bair were fast enough since Peach's aerial mobility and jumpsquat are slow and if dash attack had enough range (since I noticed if you dtilt earlier/closer than she expects it you can get in the dtilt first, and I wasn't sure about standing dtilt).

I see. So this means that aerial beats out fair/bair (and dash attack too if spacing and timing is right). Though, I think you could also beat these things out with dashback to wait/observe/react at the risk of giving up stage.

Thanks for the ideas PP! I'll try these out.
 
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Sleepy Driz

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PP, could you share any movement drills you do to help practice dash dancing/wavedashing? Just any practice tips in general would be really appreciated.
 

sneakytako

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Could you explain the pros and cons of doing dash dance dtilt vs wavedash dtilt?

I feel like wavedash dtilt is more flexible but I might just be doing it wrong.

EDIT: I meant run cancel dtilt vs wavedash dtilt if there was any confusion.
 
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Dr Peepee

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PP, could you share any movement drills you do to help practice dash dancing/wavedashing? Just any practice tips in general would be really appreciated.
I legit just do wavedashes over and over. You can see me do it on my stream sometimes. It's just like day 1 practice but I find it immensely helpful.

For DDs, I would say simple exercises include using a metronome to influence your DD timing, while shadowboxing around a level 4-7 cpus attacks would be good for spacing.

Could you explain the pros and cons of doing dash dance dtilt vs wavedash dtilt?

I feel like wavedash dtilt is more flexible but I might just be doing it wrong.

EDIT: I meant run cancel dtilt vs wavedash dtilt if there was any confusion.
WD Dtilt can go shorter/variable distances than run dtilt so that's one advantage. I believe WD Dtilt is also 1 frame faster(Kadano may come in here to correct me lol).

Beyond that, it's about what you normally do out of a dash forward(that may turn into run) or a WD that's important. Conditioning, or what you typically do so your opponent expects it, plays a role in how well either Dtilt could work in a given try.
 

vZakat

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Kevin when are you gonna rock the master form sora as an avatar?

Also I have lots of smash ideas I want to bounce off of you once I'm less busy lol.
 

Dr Peepee

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Kevin when are you gonna rock the master form sora as an avatar?

Also I have lots of smash ideas I want to bounce off of you once I'm less busy lol.
Master form Sora will be when I put together the valor I had before Apex 2014 and have been building combined with the wisdom I have been gaining from my solo time since last summer.

Hit me with ideas whenever! I'm down to play more lately.
 

Tee ay eye

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I legit just do wavedashes over and over. You can see me do it on my stream sometimes. It's just like day 1 practice but I find it immensely helpful.

For DDs, I would say simple exercises include using a metronome to influence your DD timing, while shadowboxing around a level 4-7 cpus attacks would be good for spacing.


WD Dtilt can go shorter/variable distances than run dtilt so that's one advantage. I believe WD Dtilt is also 1 frame faster(Kadano may come in here to correct me lol).

Beyond that, it's about what you normally do out of a dash forward(that may turn into run) or a WD that's important. Conditioning, or what you typically do so your opponent expects it, plays a role in how well either Dtilt could work in a given try.

kadano has a post comparing running dtilt and dash WD dtilt

http://smashboards.com/threads/kada...data-application.337035/page-15#post-16540607
 

NINJAxKOALA

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Hey PP, huge fan of your play and disappointed you won't be at Sandstorm this weekend!

I was wondering if you could walk me through how you input your shffl'd fairs and double fairs, and how you practice them. I've just been practicing them on FD against a lvl 1 fox and it doesn't seem like the most efficient way to go about it. One problem I come up with is shielding for a second sometimes after my L cancel. I'm also not sure if using the c stick is easier than A. I also struggle with the timing for double fairs, should I spam A when you think its the right time or just press it once? Thanks for your time!
 

TaFoKiNtS

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PPMD - I do agree that m2k has been flubbing execution much more frequently but could it also be possible that he doesn't have an optimal decision tree for punishing on FoD/dreamland as marth? It seems like even beyond tbh4 that he chooses deliberate options that are sub par.
 

Espi

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What situations would I use Pivot against someone like a Fox?
I've been experimenting with this myself. You should already be doing shield pivoting, but you are probably talking about true pivots. I've done it in situations where I'm not in position to get a tipper, but with Pivot I could quickly change that into a tipper. Pivot Fair is really fast and can get you stage position. Think of it as a dash dance grab.
 

victinivcreate1

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I'm a Fox/Falco main and one of my struggle MUs is Marth. So I come asking some questions concerning SDI

1. At percents where Fox/Falco can't CC Marth's dtilt anymore, is it worth trying to SDI the dtilt up to tech into the ground easier?
2. How to SDI nair/?
 

-=Untamed-Beast=-

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Hey PP, huge fan of your play and disappointed you won't be at Sandstorm this weekend!

I was wondering if you could walk me through how you input your shffl'd fairs and double fairs, and how you practice them. I've just been practicing them on FD against a lvl 1 fox and it doesn't seem like the most efficient way to go about it. One problem I come up with is shielding for a second sometimes after my L cancel. I'm also not sure if using the c stick is easier than A. I also struggle with the timing for double fairs, should I spam A when you think its the right time or just press it once? Thanks for your time!
inb4PPreplies;he'sactuallyviewingthethreadrightnow

If you find the A easier to use in some instances (notably doing shorthop Fairs toward the right), go ahead and do that. PP uses a lot of A+control stick in his aerials, actually. But I'd still recommend choosing to do C-stick aerials whenever it's easy for you to do so.

With double fairs, you could start by intentionally delaying the input for the second Fair, and then slowly timing it earlier until you find out just how early you can do them without inputting too early. If you still struggle to get them down, you may be doing the initial Fair too late, so you'd have to work at doing shorthop -> Fair quickly. That's where opting do control stick+A or C stick comes (or both) matters, whichever one's faster/easier for you.
If your shield comes up after an L-cancel, you're holding the button for too long. Remember that you can light press L or R and still get the lag cancel, since that would also help you release the button faster.
 
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Dr Peepee

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Hey PP, huge fan of your play and disappointed you won't be at Sandstorm this weekend!

I was wondering if you could walk me through how you input your shffl'd fairs and double fairs, and how you practice them. I've just been practicing them on FD against a lvl 1 fox and it doesn't seem like the most efficient way to go about it. One problem I come up with is shielding for a second sometimes after my L cancel. I'm also not sure if using the c stick is easier than A. I also struggle with the timing for double fairs, should I spam A when you think its the right time or just press it once? Thanks for your time!
I am also disappointed, but hey in time there will be lots of me attending events I am positive =)

For starters, I don't really practice double Fair. I don't like it pretty much ever.

Separate everything into parts. You have the jump, then the timing of your Fair(early or late) then your FF(optional) then your L-cancel. So when I learned I started with just short hop. Then I did SHFF. Then I did SHFF Fair. Then I finally added the L-cancel once I got that down. I recommend not putting a cpu in so you can just focus on doing the moves. Don't rush yourself or when you need the tech the most it won't be there.

PPMD - I do agree that m2k has been flubbing execution much more frequently but could it also be possible that he doesn't have an optimal decision tree for punishing on FoD/dreamland as marth? It seems like even beyond tbh4 that he chooses deliberate options that are sub par.
M2K is interesting to watch lately because if he's more practiced and his opponents give him a shield grab in an easy position then he can ride momentum and suddenly his decision trees are far more optimal. If he doesn't get that he struggles more.

I watched M2K Leffen at BH4 and M2K gets big punishes on Leffen's last two stocks in the first two games but not his first two stocks. This was different from how it was vs Mango.

My theory is partly M2K has deteriorated some no doubt, BUT I also believe that the more nuanced neutral is creating situations in which landing better combo starters, or rather transitioning from an intensive neutral to combos has become more difficult.

But to be sure, I went and checked FP4 first two games. It's Marth-Falco instead of vs Fox, and I think Mango plays it a bit worse than his Fox did at BH4. Both games were on Yoshis. M2K does punish harder, but as I'm watched the slower pace of the game, I can't help but think that's a bigger variable here. Since Fox is making M2K wildly swing far more than Falco does, I'm sure it's harder to slow down and think about combos. The pacing required is just very different. For Falco the pacing is more similar imo. Now I'm not denying M2K hits harder on Yoshis, but he wasn't death comboing every time or anything close to it. He had better ideas and seemed to get closer to it.

If this is truly all about his punish trees then he's always sub optimal by several pixels or staggered reaction time and he hasn't accounted for that. I think it's reasonable to consider it may be more likely related to the neutral developing more and making reliable pacing and decision-making harder when punishing.
 

victinivcreate1

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I'm a Fox/Falco main and one of my struggle MUs is Marth. So I come asking some questions concerning SDI

1. At percents where Fox/Falco can't CC Marth's dtilt anymore, is it worth trying to SDI the dtilt up to tech into the ground easier?
2. How to SDI nair/?
So is anyone gonna help me out with this one? I mean y'all Marth mains are the spacie killers lol. @ Dr Peepee Dr Peepee
 

tonic

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hey PP,

I've been struggling a bit in understanding neutral, particularly the zoning/spacing aspect of marth, and I was wondering how you approached it. I know to use dtilt to take space from and threaten dashdancing opponents. Do you ever seek to actually hit your opponent? And if not, how far away do you want your dtilt to strike from them? I've also found that dtilt is not great for actually holding space, as it doesn't cover aerial approaches (or am I using it incorrectly?).

That leads me my next question I have about using rising/falling SH fairs. How far exactly is a good position against opponents when zoning with fair?

Obviously some of this positional stuff varies depending on matchup, but I'm thinking more in a general sense. Thanks!
 

tonic

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In response to victinivcreate1: Are you talking about CCing the dtilt in neutral? why would you spend that much effort doing a suboptimal option if you knew you were going to get hit? Just do any other option that would avoid the dtilt, then punish. As for SDing nair, I'm pretty sure up (maybe up and away if it's a falling nair) is the best way to avoid the second hit.
 

Dr Peepee

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hey PP,

I've been struggling a bit in understanding neutral, particularly the zoning/spacing aspect of marth, and I was wondering how you approached it. I know to use dtilt to take space from and threaten dashdancing opponents. Do you ever seek to actually hit your opponent? And if not, how far away do you want your dtilt to strike from them? I've also found that dtilt is not great for actually holding space, as it doesn't cover aerial approaches (or am I using it incorrectly?).

That leads me my next question I have about using rising/falling SH fairs. How far exactly is a good position against opponents when zoning with fair?

Obviously some of this positional stuff varies depending on matchup, but I'm thinking more in a general sense. Thanks!
watch this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfBuAo_Bfvw and video 2.

marth's threatening range is his run/wd dtilt....kinda mixed with run grab and run rising fair.

Marth is also amazing at counterattacking. His disjoint on his Fair and his grab range in particular are great.

Since he can counterattack well and threaten lots of space, he has different effective ways to play.

Marth's moves usually have lots of startup and/or lots of cooldown, in addition to being arcs or very specific hitboxes. Because of this, your swinging must be very precise to be successful. I personally say swinging less is achieving more.

Given this information, you should be able to make more mixup-based decisions well now.
 

victinivcreate1

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In response to victinivcreate1: Are you talking about CCing the dtilt in neutral? why would you spend that much effort doing a suboptimal option if you knew you were going to get hit? Just do any other option that would avoid the dtilt, then punish. As for SDing nair, I'm pretty sure up (maybe up and away if it's a falling nair) is the best way to avoid the second hit.
This was what I was looking for. Thanks lol
 

MCDMars

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What's the best way to recover against a Peach? I'm a reasonably new player in a small enough scene and only encountered peach recently, and I have no idea what to do to get around her being at the edge throwing turnips and down smashing. I assume it's well timed stalling and attempting to sweetspot but I just couldn't get it right during the matches
 

007-jake

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Sup everyone. I'm a marth main with a secondary falco.

I absolutely can't do the marth sheik matchup. I know it's possible but I can't at ALL. I've had muchhh more success as falco against sheik.

My recent thoughts are:

- use marth vs spacies, peach, falcon, puff, luigi, marth, other low-tiers

- use falco ONLY (I usually go marth 1st game just to see, but get ***** and switch to falco) for sheik

- train my falco heavily for the sheik matchup

We have 2 sheik-only mains in my area so there's no risk of a character switch by my opponent. Anyone else use the above or have thoughts?
 

net1234

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So theres a technical falco in my region now and ive never had to deal with real pressure before.

Its probably in kadanos marth thread somewhere but what are my legitimate options out of shield

i know fair is okay and roll/wd are acceptable but i still feel like i get hit more often then not. Assuming their not dropping tech skill what should i be observing so beat his shield pressure, he dairs high on my shield often but i still cant grab it, idk if it because my timing is off but i feel like roll i the only way i dont get hit and he still follows me. my wd-oos usually gets caught too by his wavedash in shine too. Edit: holy **** i forgot about lightshielding omg thats godlike



What are effective options to deal with low lasers? i feel like lasers kill dashdance and psing is so freakin hard to do anywere near consistantly

id like to hear someones breakdown of platform camping a falco as marth because i find it kinda tricky and get hit out of it often.

how do u guys deal with a falco camping on the top platform? his up and down movement is so fast and i feel like it makes some of his mixups kinda overwhelming

How do you guys practice oos options?

when you get forced to ledge how do u get back? i usually camp and wait for him to get off and threaten with waveland roll/spotdodge/grab/counter

When u dthrow a falco off stage at low% whats the best way to cover multiple options

Whats the best way to di falco combos, i try to di out and sdi out a lot but sometimes i just end up sding even deeper into the combo when i do that. is it a reactionary based thing where u do it depending on their spacing? or is there like a default that i should usually resort to.

So when i break down the falco matchup i try to

1 keep stage control (i usually dd and downtilt and when they get laser happy try to crouch-ps and dash attack)

2 keep in mind his maximum shffle dair rainges and bait out a scrubby approach (omg shield pivots are godlike for catching this i never knew)

3 keep in mind all of his recovery options (forward b, dj sweetspot, airdodge onstage, firefox high, firefox sweetspot, rising dair)

4 swing little from neutral and try to keep pressure with movement

5 be really careful with my punishes and make sure they end up pushing the falco off stage, i like to slow it down and make sure i get every hit

6 platform camp like a ************

Is there anything very important u think i should add to that list to practice in the short term?

Any input on any of this would be great id love to hear my fellow marths thoughts on how to play the falco MU

i also got one specifically for @ Dr Peepee Dr Peepee . Im trying to move from just making safe decisions to actually forcing my opponent to make bad decisions but this is a difficult concept to grasp so i'd love to have your input on this specifically more than anything else. is it just a combination of safe movement and conditioning? how do u force bad options out of people?
 
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BTmoney

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You know how pp and mow say don't jump and use up throw?

I studied like 10 pp matches and they all go like this:
1. He literally will not jump on his own accord in neutral in every MU I've watched (which is why I wish we had some PP vs. Falco footage, you have to play off the ground sometimes)
2. First hit he'll get out of neutral is either a grab or dtilt
3. Will almost never sheild and is comfortable dash dancing tightly near the ledge
4. If it's not a fast faller, uthrow->huge long damage-> landing with poor stage positioning-> eventual death. Instead of figuring out how to combo like him I started looking at how he began them. Instead of being like wow what a crazy stock I'd look and see how it started instead of the result. Like once the opponent was past low percent really he'd kill X character with 1 or 2 grabs and force unwinnable or unfavorable situations; they were effectively KO'd once he got the grab at 50%.

I counted how many times he would jump unprovoked per game and it would go between like 5 and 0 times.

Almost every single oppening (I counted them for a while then noticed the same thing kept happening) came off a grab or d tilt, not fair or nair, and I would literally say that's his first hit out of neutral upwards of 90% of the time.

Marth =
1. Grab/know your grab follow ups/uthrow
2. Never jump
3. Never sheild unless you absolutely have to
4. Down tilt

It's really interesting it's so linear and dynamic at the same time. Very simple but very effective
 
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Binx

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Jul 19, 2006
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I'll add to that a little bit, when I watch PPs marth it feels like Marths most powerful option is to wait for your opponent to do something and just snuff them out. Its kind of like a very control based chess game for him it seems, he just constricts his opponents options until there is nothing good left to choose and then he outranges it or punishes the lag.

This is my own theory but with that in mind it makes sense than he wouldn't do anything committal in neutral.
 
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