Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Sylarius]

PP, what are your favourite melee sets for hype, and for interesting gameplay, which didn't have you in them? since i know you mentioned pound and apex as two of your favourite tournament wins.

I am curious if m2k shiz, pewpewu hbox, and mango leffen at genesis 4 are up there at all. i'm just guessing here though. your set vs leffen at apex 2015 was the set i went back to frequently for when i wanted to watch both gameplay and hype cause i love your popoff at the end lmao which i've posted about before, but also because i was learning marth. so I wonder what sets involving other players hit those areas individually for you, if you have ever felt that way, wanting to rewatch sets to relive the hype or because the gameplay impresses you.

i also used to like watching lovage leffen lmao although it's kinda old now. scar's commentary during the third game makes me laugh. i also like his commentary in mango leffen at genesis 4 for a similar reason.

ppmd kreygasm

 

[Sylarius]

i also enjoyed westballz shinobi but the video of that one on youtube is really bad for framerate, and i was sad that leffen started beefing with westballz not too long after that happened cause his commentary on that video was fine. and also PC chris vs ken salty suite when PC switches to falco and the crowd starts cheering and he starts smiling cause of the hype lol. that moment is awesomee. i felt a similar way at evo when the crowd chanted falco and you switched to falco vs armada and waved, although the circumstance was different from PC chris of course. and armada also picked the stage really quick after you switched lmao.

edit: oh wait i'm referring to pc chris winning game 2 with falco and then he smiles while the crowd is cheering like mad lol.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Hey Sylarius, I'll respond to this but in the future I'd like to keep this thread mostly informative if that is alright =)

I do like shiz m2k rom a lot for hype, mango armada genesis 1, hm and probably other stuff but those two were just so much to me at the time and kinda now lol

 

[Sylarius]

damn do you have an ask.fm

i probably don't have any more non tiara guy questions besides that one at least. i kinda stopped playing smash over covid but maybe i'll try going to some locals again and see if my slicing ability is still present

 

[Dr Peepee]

I haven't heard someone talk about ask.fm in years LOL. I answer questions like that a lot in my twitch stream though =)

 

[Sylarius]

I am definitely gonna have to come for that PPMD summit coverage

edit: i had a second question but went to his stream (would recommend)

 

[Kopaka]

In the marth ditto, the marth is moving forward with sh late fair (sometimes in place, sometimes approaching) -> dash back -> dash forward sh empty hop/late fair. Sometimes lands with dtilt. Kodorin says you can challenge sh in place with rising aerial, whiff punish grab if the late fair is approaching. Challenging none of these attacks makes me lose too much stage. I've tried these options out in unclepunch and they seem good but is there anything else I'm missing here? run up shield seems too limiting.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Ftilt is also really good vs airborne opponents, and Fsmash can be too but it's less reliable sometimes. Run up shield isn't useful here.

 

[Cl0uD]

Hey PP, did you ever do any movement drills? I know you've talked about shadow boxing in a melee sense but did you ever do that with movement specifically as well? I've been watching some old vids of you and now I think my movement's become stale over time and need something to reinvigorate it.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Yeah I did movement drills for sure. I would start with my super basic movement, so like dashes or WDs by themselves. Then I'd start doing dash forward WD back, or dash back dash forward WD back. Basically I would do simple things then put them together/add complexity. I felt this was good to understand movements by themselves and also as units. It's always really helpful for me personally to think about what each action I do is connected to(in terms of threats) and what I'm beating or losing to by doing what I'm doing.

 

[Cl0uD]

It was actually one of those dash forward wd back movements that made me want to ask, I figured that it had to be a practiced motion. I often find myself thinking about how just moving with small hits on shields works as effective pressure in certain situations, like making someone panic near the edge or an unsafe dtilt wd back punish. Over time I've stopping thinking about what I'm losing to so I'll try and keep that in mind.
Thanks for still being on the boards and always responding btw, I think my game wouldn't as be as good as it is today without it.

 

[Kopaka]

Yeah I did movement drills for sure. I would start with my super basic movement, so like dashes or WDs by themselves. Then I'd start doing dash forward WD back, or dash back dash forward WD back. Basically I would do simple things then put them together/add complexity. I felt this was good to understand movements by themselves and also as units. It's always really helpful for me personally to think about what each action I do is connected to(in terms of threats) and what I'm beating or losing to by doing what I'm doing.

I'm trying not to ask for a golden ticket answer to win 100% of the time, but how does Marth threaten while moving forward/dash dancing/using sword without giving up too much space? It's really easy to use movement but accidentally forfeit stage, it's really easy to use sword to swing too much.

I'm told I move backward too much, both with late aerials and also movement. is it even possible to threaten with marth without moving back? I hear, "poke then get a grab then kill" but it's just so hard to get that initial poke without getting drilled after moving in. If I wait around too much they come in, or at the very least I swat them away at low percent with a sh aerial but they cc and hit me. Atm I'm just forcing myself not to be afraid of my opponent though without holding forward constantly, just not moving backward as much.

 

[Dr Peepee]

It just sounds like you don't know how to threaten moving forward. Something I'd suggest starting with that might be more comfortable is dash in retreating rising Fair. You see Zain do it sometimes. Also run up Fair/Nair in place(Fair can be mid or late). When you can control your space around you better, then you might start feeling better about attacking. Ways to attack as Marth include walk/RC/WD forward Dtilt, dash/run in rising Fair(usually in place but it can depend), mix run up grab/Fsmash if you're kinda crazy, etc....but the idea is that Marth doesn't necessarily have a spacie SH Nair but he can poke and occasionally hard commit or at least soft commit by encroaching on their space. If they do nothing, they get poked/lose stage space. If they attack, you can be countered. That's the basic idea.

 

[Kopaka]

It just sounds like you don't know how to threaten moving forward. Something I'd suggest starting with that might be more comfortable is dash in retreating rising Fair. You see Zain do it sometimes. Also run up Fair/Nair in place(Fair can be mid or late). When you can control your space around you better, then you might start feeling better about attacking. Ways to attack as Marth include walk/RC/WD forward Dtilt, dash/run in rising Fair(usually in place but it can depend), mix run up grab/Fsmash if you're kinda crazy, etc....but the idea is that Marth doesn't necessarily have a spacie SH Nair but he can poke and occasionally hard commit or at least soft commit by encroaching on their space. If they do nothing, they get poked/lose stage space. If they attack, you can be countered. That's the basic idea.

Thanks for taking the time. I'm trying to rework the way I think about neutral game as it leads into my punish game, so some of these questions may seem disconnected as I try to piece different ideas together.

When the dash in retreating rising fair doesn't hit, aren't I opened up? Like, let's say they move back in time to avoid the fair or they full hop. How am I going to maintain the stage I just took? Is it like: don't retreat anymore than you need to? Don't always do the attack ->dash back thing? Stand facing forward and watch what they're doing, how they're drifting with their approach...? Secondly, I know they're not just going to let me take space/attack while moving forward, say, by aggressively lasering as falco or running toward me as fox and jumping/dash dancing back slightly to trick me up. I'm guessing you'll say rising fair or maybe run up grab takes care of this depending on the character/situation/conditioning. Of course nothing works 100% of the time in a vacuum, I just want to make sure that the way I'm thinking about these interactions is the way that'll take me far in bracket.

Have you shared your thoughts anywhere on Amsa's ideas on neutral game? aka whiff punishing becoming less effective the better players you fight, over/undershooting moves generally speaking being more effective than pure reactive play. Was your play ever misunderstood as being purely reactive, aka just dash dance grabbing?

What you're talking about here, - moving forward with retreating fair/mixing up aerial drift and timings in general - I think ties into what Amsa's talking about.

 

[Dr Peepee]

If you run in retreating Fair, you're going to wind up back where you started. So you'll go back pretty far. It's not going to be likely punished unless they're pretty prepared for it. But that also means you won't technically be giving up any stage since you move in then go back.

But yeah, don't always attack into dash back. You'll get blown up for that. Think of what to do instead.

And yeah, it depends on matchup. Most of this doesn't really work on Falco for example because of laser, but vs Fox it's better.

I think whiff punishing is still great, but I also include hitting their post-move action as whiff punishing mentally. Youtube comments liked saying I was just DD grabbing lol but I don't remember what good players thought.

 

[Kopaka]

I take it obviously whiff punishing (specifically dash -> grab) is great when in combination with other ways of punishing/defending..and not just all the time lol.

If I only whiff punish then it's like I'm relying exclusively on hoping my opponent will do something specific, or wait until they throw out some slow attack. And if I wait around too long for the perfect time to dash grab then I corner myself/let them take control. Or say I'm against a projectile character, sheik, or even young link. They usually play the corner to throw projectiles so I take it I have to poke/cc stuff to get around that. Time and place, etc. etc. Sometimes you can't hit their post-move either, right? Either too far or they act too quickly like retreating drill -> drill again. Is whiff punishing really that great if marth's sword outranges so many moves? then again, one of the downsides to sword is that it's really slow on shield or if it's misspaced and timed you're dead.

It's impossible to analyze every possible situation in the game, right? Because there's so many variables, etc. Is the goal then to study as many situations as possible and then just abide by certain sets of principles/rules/whatever you want to call it? Frameworks/mental models?

How do you know when to attack and when to back off, especially if the opponent's neutral is good? if they're not being too committal, taking space properly, what are you looking for? how do you stop being afraid of even opponents who know what they're doing?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Whiff punishing is stuff like Sheik AC Fairs in front of you but you Dtilt and either hit her landing or hit her dash/WD back. But, if you're too far to Dtilt or in dash animation then whiff punishing might be walk Dtilt to hit post-Fair movement back for example. But yeah, you can't only look to whiff punish or people won't just whiff, or they'll whiff more safely.

It's best to learn fundamental positions and what moves beat what moves. Of course it's still complicated, but it gets a lot easier once you have that down.

Sometimes you don't know, or don't fully know. That's part of the fun of Melee.

That being said, you can get information. Dash/run in WD back is free info, as are some of the other things I listed.

 

[Kopaka]

Whiff punishing is stuff like Sheik AC Fairs in front of you but you Dtilt and either hit her landing or hit her dash/WD back. But, if you're too far to Dtilt or in dash animation then whiff punishing might be walk Dtilt to hit post-Fair movement back for example. But yeah, you can't only look to whiff punish or people won't just whiff, or they'll whiff more safely.

It's best to learn fundamental positions and what moves beat what moves. Of course it's still complicated, but it gets a lot easier once you have that down.

Sometimes you don't know, or don't fully know. That's part of the fun of Melee.

That being said, you can get information. Dash/run in WD back is free info, as are some of the other things I listed.

okay, so you won't always know - and you won't always know even if you're like a top player, I take it. Accepting that seems like a good thing. The fact that i don't know whether or not I'm always going to connect makes me hesitate/give up space... But it's also good to know what kind of attack to go for and what that'll lead to, but of course you can't know everything like you're saying.

when marth is waiting to observe the opponent I take it that's when you're using movement/moves to gain information instead of just idly sitting by.

(sounds like what you used to post about here like 4 years ago lol) but learning this stuff again under my new understanding helps

 

[Dr Peepee]

That's all true, what you said.

 

[Kopaka]

Two things. Also thanks for still replying to these. I don't take it for granted.

What do you think of this: no mixup is overrated or underrated, because the point is to be as versatile as possible. Or, all mixups are equally "good" if you know how to make each mixup work for you, and know when the mixup isn't as appropriate.

Let's say that powershielding is great vs falco. If that's all you ever go for, powershielding, you tunnel vision way too hard on hoping you press shield at the right time and that they laser the right way for you to get the ps. So then you want to be more versatile - which means having a deeper pool of options to draw from, instead of doing the 1 good thing. Doing the 1 good thing all the time is bad because that makes you predictable.

Also saying this because people tell me to ps all the time vs Falco. But what I take that to mean is that I shouldn't be looking for ps all the time, but having that mixup in my pocket gives the opponent more to think about. Idk, I just hear a lot of "oh just do this" kind of matchup advice. You can't just do X good move all the time and expect to win, right?

Thing two: How do you think of attacking? what are you trying to do when you attack? I'm told I wall too much. I swing and I miss a lot and people just wait for an opening in the wall, like a crack or something, and then they go in. I'm realizing that marth has this really long sword that can actually hit people from far away - but how do you stick to the principle of not hitting where they are, but hitting where they will be, without merely walling and whiffing on purpose? I really really want to learn to connect my movement with my sword. I know that's the next step for me to get really good once I'm confident with it.

 

[Dr Peepee]

For sure. I won't be doing Smashboards a ton longer, but it seems like we get to have some great conversation before that happens!

Some tactics and techniques are stronger than others. And sometimes all you need to do is one thing to win in bad matchups. But yes vs stronger characters it helps to do multiple good things to win.

I think about hitting them where they will be, but will be can also include moving away. Or I think about covering where they might be in a couple places, in place and coming towards me. Attacking, especially with Marth, need not be trying to hit them right away. Attacking might be moving toward them, or even moving away to set up for movement toward them. But that's probably confusing, so I'll just say attacking is about being threatening, and not necessarily attempting to hit them right away. This is especially important to understand as Marth, who can't go directly in a lot.

 

[Kopaka]

For sure. I won't be doing Smashboards a ton longer, but it seems like we get to have some great conversation before that happens!

Some tactics and techniques are stronger than others. And sometimes all you need to do is one thing to win in bad matchups. But yes vs stronger characters it helps to do multiple good things to win.

I think about hitting them where they will be, but will be can also include moving away. Or I think about covering where they might be in a couple places, in place and coming towards me. Attacking, especially with Marth, need not be trying to hit them right away. Attacking might be moving toward them, or even moving away to set up for movement toward them. But that's probably confusing, so I'll just say attacking is about being threatening, and not necessarily attempting to hit them right away. This is especially important to understand as Marth, who can't go directly in a lot.

Ah man that makes me kinda sad. But there's an archive of information in these posts to look back on So much ground covered (no pun intended lol) anyways. But I'd like to at least really dive into attacking on a deeper level before the end!

So anyways, attacking. To make sure I understand: So, attacking where they will be can also include anticipating in place or also retreating, with like a nair in place or retreating nair/fair. Like a spacie or falcon come at me, or any character that usually comes at me, and I anticipate where they will be with a nair in place. SO that's what I ought to be doing, instead of merely walling with nair. Walling with nair can be scary, but not the way I've been using it. I can miss an attack and that'll make them think about it, but I should also use sword to anticipate where they'll be while moving forward.

So, if I see a good marth doing what looks like an aerial/or grounded move toward the opponent, sorta breaking the rules of marth, what am I seeing, exactly? a marth anticipating the opponent moving back? I know it must be possible to use sword going forward, but marth has to do it in a particular way and I'd like to understand that. I see good marths move forward to control space when spacies are around platform. It seems to me like a mid/low level marth habit to merely play the move back and wait game.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Attacking can be directly going at them where they are, overshooting to where they will be, protecting your space, or faking/threatening....to say it a different way. The point is to connect your movement and attacks, to have intent. No intent, no connection, no threat.

But yes, I'm not telling you to give up walling with Nair. It's a fine thing to do in itself. If anything, I'm trying to help you make this stronger by encouraging them to run in to stop your approach and get hit by walling Nair more!

Marth doing WD Dtilt is not breaking his rules imo. RC/WD Fsmash is closer to, or clearly is, breaking them to me. Poking or doing run forward Fair in place is a safe approach that still protects yourself and therefore within bounds of acceptable zoning play. In modern Melee, more Marths like to do Nair here instead so you could do run in pull back Nair but you wind up staying in place due to momentum. But anyway, moving forward and attacking is seeing them call out the opponent, or want to dislodge them, or force the opponent to reconsider their slower play against the player, etc etc. Lots of possible reasons, but it might be simplest to say moving in and attacking is good because there's a read and also way to do it safely. There are also safer timings, like if Falco has just whiffed a laser vs just hit one as an easy example.

 

[Kopaka]

I want to talk about thinking, sorta relates to all this.

Getting myself to actually mentally take information from my opponent while I play has actually been really helpful. That gives me more understanding as to how to make my attacks hit and how to avoid theirs. Thinking about the amount of mixups they're using on me, which mixups they are, where they come from. Just taking that information and actually using it while I play. If I take a stock and I didn't gain any information from my opponent, then I'll actually be at a disadvantage in the next stock! Taking a stock and gaining knowledge on my opponent is way more powerful. It's like I'm stealing a part of their soul or something. I hear this inner monologue about the game in my head.

I recall you saying you can't really think while you play - but I'm definitely thinking when I practice this. It's not happening all the time, sometimes I don't that hear that inner monologue/conversation about the game in my head but I'm not exactly autopiloting.

So it's like, gain as much matchup and character knowledge/understanding of rules as you can, and practice thinking about your opponent and how you can use what you know against them, and then like, during the moments you didn't prepare for (because you can't prepare for everything) you like subconsciously play out that situation using what you know about the game/character/opponent/position/risk reward, maybe some other stuff etc. I'm starting to tell the difference between me throwing out moves or walling simply just to do it, and me using attacks/movement in conjunction with what my opponent has been doing during the match.

If I can figure out X good player in friendlies, I should be able to figure out anyone. Though one problem I have is that ever since I was a kid I've never liked not being able to figure something out, or taking a lot longer to figure it out. Frustrates me. I gotta work on that somehow.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Sounds like you need to be gentler with yourself. You'd be surprised what can happen when you let these tensions go.

 

[Kopaka]

Sounds like you need to be gentler with yourself. You'd be surprised what can happen when you let these tensions go.

If the thread ended with this I can't say I wouldn't be happy ;p

 

[Dr Peepee]

FINAL POST HERE:

Thank you all for joining me on this journey here. 10 years ago, I was watching Marth players say there was no hope for the character and I began sharing advice in hopes to show them there was SO MUCH Marth can do. Public opinion has shifted today, and I'd like to think that my role here, largely unseen, has played a part. But it couldn't have happened without those of you who ventured off the beaten path, so thanks again for asking questions or even lurking and valuing what I had to say.

I will write my full post on my leave from Smashboards on the Falco thread, but to the mods/Cactuar: do what you will with this thread. If I could ask anything, I'd love for it to be stickied and maybe have prominent posts(not the meme one) displayed in some way so that future Marths may be able to grasp how timeless some of the advice is. Regardless, thanks for allowing me to share my knowledge here in a more public way.

 

[Kotastic]

I only heard after big house from sacredtwin that the time has finally come...people used to ask me all the time if pp still answers questions on sb and i ALWAYS responded with YES to their disbelief. An end of an era.

Thank you for being my greatest source of improvement.

 

[Sprenzy42]

guys, all of the invite links to marth r&d discord and marth save state is gone, i need to join pls

 

[VMPR]

I’m having a really hard time developing a consistent punish game vs mid weights that works for me in tournaments. I blow up fast fallers when I get openings and kinda combo the crap out of samus peach and puff. But sheik and Marth I swear to god just reversal me constantly or I drop my punish. Any advice to develop my combo game vs these guys? What should the game plan be when I get a hit and what are my best moves at different percent ranges to get fatty strings. I played Cactuar and he would blow me up and watching Zain vs sheik he seems to hit way harder and have to make way less reads than me. The aireals seems to flow together like magic in a way mine just don’t.