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quixotic

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https://youtu.be/SGxEwmvbPLQ?t=36s
How can I punish marth's jab at this range or pressure him?

If I tried to dtilt the initial landing, I would have gotten jabbed but gotten closer to center and closed the distance. Do you think that's better then waiting?

Finally if instead of jab, marth did dtilt to immediate short hop back into fair if i come in, what's the best way to punish this sequence?
 
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Dr Peepee

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Hm... this makes sense. I often dash back/begin a DD to assess a Neutral situation, but this is a bad habit because I give up control. I'd be punished less for it on DL, however, because I'm far more likely to be outside opponent TR, and giving up some stage isn't as bad. Playing more assertively and cutting out more unnecessary movement is probably what I need to do on smaller stages then. Also getting out of my head more.

Partial approaches aren't something I use enough, and just gathering data actually sounds like an intuitive solution, because defense in particular is often very patterned - can't believe that didn't occur to me. Okay, these are helpful.

Yeah, it's platforms. FH seems much more straightforward on FD and even PS where the mixup isn't there/not nearly as strong. But okay, I do think my problem is rushing, and I give up the control they give me when they retreat to platforms as a result.

Oh no, this sounds pretty useful. I think I need to apply both sets of advice, running the situation a lot while keeping these things in mind. I need to be more clear with what exactly I want them to do, and moving back is at least a good starting place.

Hm... so hold down > Dtilt, and I generally use WD back as a response to ledgedashes/ledgehop aerials. Are there other common tools Marth could use to guard the ledge I should experiment with?

This seems to relate to your point about partial approaches, I'll work on those.

I currently use criticism the way you did, and do the same thing watching top players ahaha... Self-compassion is hard, and you've brought it up to me before in the form of substitutions. It's honestly something I'm working on, but I can't bring myself to be proud of the work I've put in if it hasn't been good work, you know? It's like, if it accomplishes the goal I set for myself that's worth being proud of, but if I put in a bunch of work and it was all useless and didn't make me any better, that's just crushing more than anything. It's the constant nagging of "am I doing this right" that eats at me, because I want it so bad but my time feels so limited. I'm actively trying to replace those negative thoughts with positives though, and tbh just being able to come on here and discuss my mentality struggles with you is great in itself, so it really does help.
You can also just SH in place to control space with Fair, or Dtilt in place or crouch as if you want to in matchups where Dtilt is more relevant. It may help to get into different neutral modes, or whatever it takes to not always dash back lol.

You can SH in place or drifting back a little if you're a bit inside of their edgedash spacing to punish them coming up with Nair/Fair. I think those are the typical ones and easiest/strongest to suggest for now.

Word, and maybe if you go back and look at old notes/matches of you and compare it to now you can see you're really getting better. If you have the proof to yourself, your doubt can't really be reasonable at all then =p

Just simple questions

For spacies side-B from the ledge, should I just buffer roll? I generally shield and WD, but sometimes I swear I WD OoS pretty fast and they still get out their spotdodge anyways. Even then, the analog --> digital shield conversion and shield poking occurs sometimes and it's really annoying.

For Falcon's Raptor boost, I'm working on just reacting to the sound of it with shield. Should I also perhaps work on timing a fair to intercept it?
You have to WD grab without JC to get it sometimes I think, and mayyybe vs Falco he can spotdodge in time? I think WD grab should normally work though. Might be something to grind for a little to be sure. You could even FH/DJ over it I suppose and come down with Dair grab if they're low percent or Uair/Fair if they're higher and maybe grab if you time it well.

Fair is pretty hard to use to beat raptor boost iirc, but Dtilt can work. Shield is usually best, and I'd look for aerial into side B as well as what positions Falcon like to use it in(like how close Marth is, if Falcon is cornered vs center, etc). I believe cornered Falcons go for it way more.
https://youtu.be/SGxEwmvbPLQ?t=36s
How can I punish marth's jab at this range or pressure him?

If I tried to dtilt the initial landing, I would have gotten jabbed but gotten closer to center and closed the distance. Do you think that's better then waiting?

Finally if instead of jab, marth did dtilt to immediate short hop back into fair if i come in, what's the best way to punish this sequence?
You can of course Fair over it, as well as Dtilt and probably Ftilt. If you dash back as it happens you don't need to worry about DD as much since the other Marth can't really dash easily out of this jab and you can set up to outrange or for a quick movement closer to him to bait stuff like that Fsmash.

He waited a while to jab, so you might have been able to directly hit/pressure him. Maybe you just kept too far away.

You either punish the Dtilt by jumping over and punishing or with Fsmash, OR you move in to challenge the Fair landing with your own Dtilt or by being close and having mobility advantage. It's worth mentioning explicitly that Marth pushing in some helps put a lot of pressure on someone who puts themselves in lag, and if you move away you give up that advantage. Sure there are advantages to waiting/being farther, but if you're looking to directly punish this is how you'd do it.
 

Agrathor3

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Hello player of bird dude and sword guy it's my first post on here (Just been a creeping) but I was wondering what are your favourite movement mixups in the neutral game because lets be real your movement in general is pristine XD and how exactly do I bait people into trying to hit me using my movement?

Also what do you think of using pivots to f smash out of your dash dance?
 

Kotastic

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PP, I know your rule for the Peach mu is to stay out of DA range but be within WD d-tilt range. I feel like I'm misinterpretting your rule in some way because I find it pretty hard against good Peach players on how to win a neutral exchange. Like when I dash back, against good Peach players they just simply take space with shield or float threatening aerials, and I'm in a losing position already.

I have most trouble what to do when the Peach is running straight at me, say both of us are at neutral position on FD. When the Peach is charging straight at me, I honestly don't know what to do. I could dash back to stay out of DA range, but it loses to them simply taking space and pulling turnip or something. I don't know what to do to beat stuff like DA, floats, and run-up shields as a possibility from charging. I feel like a textbook answer to beat DA would be d-tilt, but I have a strong feeling that it would trade which is not ideal. I know I could hold down, but I'm not always going to have that tool plus DA knocks down pretty low. And d-tilt loses to floats. I could rising fair to beat said floats, but it kinda loses to DA in some spacings. Idk.

I usually kinda just cop out and FH, but if the Peach sees it coming it kinda sucks getting down. Tips on what to do with a Peach charging at me?
 

Dr Peepee

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Hello player of bird dude and sword guy it's my first post on here (Just been a creeping) but I was wondering what are your favourite movement mixups in the neutral game because lets be real your movement in general is pristine XD and how exactly do I bait people into trying to hit me using my movement?

Also what do you think of using pivots to f smash out of your dash dance?
suh

I really like stalling out dash forwards by a bit. I also like WD in SH when I need to get meta.

I don't like pivot Fsmash out of DD too much since it's kinda slow and hard to space super well as you're constantly moving, but it can be okay as a mixup if you predict something like someone landing then trying to attack again.

PP, I know your rule for the Peach mu is to stay out of DA range but be within WD d-tilt range. I feel like I'm misinterpretting your rule in some way because I find it pretty hard against good Peach players on how to win a neutral exchange. Like when I dash back, against good Peach players they just simply take space with shield or float threatening aerials, and I'm in a losing position already.

I have most trouble what to do when the Peach is running straight at me, say both of us are at neutral position on FD. When the Peach is charging straight at me, I honestly don't know what to do. I could dash back to stay out of DA range, but it loses to them simply taking space and pulling turnip or something. I don't know what to do to beat stuff like DA, floats, and run-up shields as a possibility from charging. I feel like a textbook answer to beat DA would be d-tilt, but I have a strong feeling that it would trade which is not ideal. I know I could hold down, but I'm not always going to have that tool plus DA knocks down pretty low. And d-tilt loses to floats. I could rising fair to beat said floats, but it kinda loses to DA in some spacings. Idk.

I usually kinda just cop out and FH, but if the Peach sees it coming it kinda sucks getting down. Tips on what to do with a Peach charging at me?
Yeah if they run in, I move back a little to discourage DA, and then run in grab often once they get kinda close to where they can't react to this option. Keeps them from doing this too much. You can Dtilt in place a little if you want to discourage this as well.

http://www.twitch.tv/ugsgaming2/v/252646286?sr=a&t=247s

Match starts @ 4:07. Im the blue Marth

I've started to become really frustrated with myself in regards to dealing with (at least what I feel like is) rush down. After the watching the vod a few times it donset really seem apparent where I lost without stating the obvious (improper DI, lack of follow-ups on upthrow etc).

This comes back to a common issue I have with players who play "aggressive" (at least from my perspective, I'm not sure if you would consider this aggressive) it seems like everywhere I moved there was a hitbox waiting for me. Even after choosing a follow up to do there would be something else I had to avoid not just once, but all the time. I notice this alot with low level Falco as well.

So ultimately my question is how do i deal with Rushdown/aggressive play. The only problem is. Maybe I'm missing the point and getting run over/being a "*****" and not accepting that people use offensive movement and options to defeat their opponent and this sort of play is commonplace and it's me that needs to change the whole way I look at the game. Hope this made sense considering i woke up like an hour ago :p
Looks like your actual problem is just not understanding positions and being inefficient with tech to me. I'll go through the first few times you get hit

First time- you get a fair, stand in place for a second, then move away then immediately back in when you're already kind of close. hitting the opponent then waiting encourages them to hit you back, as did missing your L-cancel. being close doesn't let you react easily but if they think you're not going to continue the punish why shouldn't they just hit you for being close?

Second- you land and Dtilt out of a punish and get Fair'ed. However, the opponent was far enough away you could have waited to Dtilt instead of doing it as fast as you did, which gave the opponent the cue to jump. Crouch instead or just move back/move in/wait. Immediately attacking in place at that spacing wasn't the answer.

Third- You shield grab after shielding Dtilt and get Fsmashed. Your OOS game got you blown up all of your next stock so I'd suggest not going for shield grab unless you know it'll work. Spaced Dtilt isn't shield grabbable, and spaced Marth isn't likely to run into you either. WD back OOS or well timed Fair/Nair/sometimes Bair/Dair OOS are what you mainly want to use. Also you want to make sure to wait longer, since many people don't have deep shield pressure after they hit a shield once. Patience and practicing coming OOS can be good here.
 

Kotastic

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What about for when they jump float? I feel like when I dash back to avoid DA, I just end up giving up space when they float and don't approach so I can't really pivot grab it. Is dash backing even good in the first place against float?
 

Dr Peepee

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Well if they float and attack quickly, you can pivot grab that pretty reliably I'd think. You can also pivot retreating Fair, or if you're late on reaction then retreating Bair, to cover everything. You can also crouch for Dtilt so that Peach jumps and then just Fair that or whatever you'd like. Dashing back is still fine here, but you may find the need to give up an interaction or two to learn if they instant FC or go forward a bit.
 

Kotastic

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Alright, that should be sufficient for most aspects of the mu. Thanks for the insight.

Although, what about FH rising fair in some cases? I like using it sometimes in the corner since it's weirdly good against Peach, but I get more mixed results when Peach has the option to dash back and observe. I see M2K go for that option fairly decently in some instances.
 

Dr Peepee

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I don't like the option since she can technically get under you if she reads it or even reacts well in certain instances with certain drift etc. But if she's cornered and you space pretty well, then it's far less likely to turn around on you I think.
 

Kotastic

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I have a hard time in the mirror what beats Marth standing in place d-tilting at 0, say at neutral positions on FD. Everything gets CC'd which invalidates jump or DA (can be amsah teched), can't run in to at least CC the hilt of dtilt, and hard to whiff punish d-tilt with grab. The only reliable way I can think of punishing this is f-smashing right in front of d-tilt range so then damage is racked up and therefore standing d-tilt is weaker.

Thoughts?
 

Dr Peepee

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You can move in and Dtilt his Dtilt, you can Nair over it, you can Fsmash past it, you can even run in and ASDI down it and Dtilt back if you want.
 

Dr Peepee

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If you KNOW they will dash back, you can WD Dtilt or Fsmash, or running grab in some instances. However, Dtilt to observe will often be your safest confirm(Dtilt move in a bit is usually still pretty good at gaining stage and often freaking out the opponent so you get a punish anyway).
 

quixotic

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By dtilt to observe to do you mean dtilt->dash back and observe or dtilt stand still and observe?
 

Beat!

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I read the discussion the topic from a week ago on thinking vs not thinking during matches and "analysis paralysis", and I'd like to share some of my own thoughts on the subject:

I think a big issue many players face when trying to figure out how much they're supposed to "think" during games is that they're not properly differentiating between information about any given situation that can (and should) be internalized during practice, and information which is not available prior to the start of the game and which needs to be consciously observed; specifically, your opponent's decision making. The former category includes anything which is objectively true regardless of the opponent's skill level; if a Fox nair approach at a certain distance can be DD grabbed then that's going to hold true whether the player behind the wheels is Leffen or your 0 - 2-at-locals Fox beginner. If a Falcon is too far away to reach you with whatever move you're afraid of (presumably knee) before you have time to react, then you don't need to worry about being hit by that move even if the Falcon in question is someone you've never faced before; whatever new, unique mixups they bring to the table aren't going to change anything about a "solved" interaction.

The examples above are fairly straightforward and probably not news to most people. However, there are two very important things to note.
The first one is the concept itself: any situation or position in the game has a variety of facts and implications attached to it about which moves are being threatened, which approaches can be reacted to and which ones must be predicted, etc. You should not have to actively think about any of these pieces of information during a tournament game; they're supposed to be internalized, part of your second nature.
The second, and perhaps the more important one in the context of this discussion, is the fact that this concept applies to an absolutely massive amount of situations in this game, including ones which many mid-and-below level players may erroneously believe to be part of the other catgeory, the opponent-specific kind of information which requires a more case-by-base approach. I believe a big reason for this is that many situations in neutral are complex and/or nuanced to the point where the player doesn't even consider the possibility that, rather than choosing between sticking to their default game plan or opting for a potentially ill-advised committment, there may be a concrete, objectively sounder way to respond, as long as you've familiarized yourself with the situation to the point where the decision is instantaneous, yet completely informed.

Now, it's difficult - if not outright impossible - to completely internalize all the relevant knowledge about complex, borderline abstract neutral interactions without actively thinking about the situation at some point beforehand. This is where friendly sessions come into the picture, and where the notion of Play to Learn > Play to Win is as relevant as ever. Accept the temporary drop in performance and focus on learning how to truly understand the more abstract concepts beyond the bare minimum required to play a passable neutral. Figure out the ins and outs of important positions you run into frequently, and make that information your own. Internalize it. And if friendlies alone don't seem to be enough or if it seems like an overwhelming task at first (sure as hell did for me), then look at videos of high level gameplay and see what they do, to get a starting point to work with. Don't just copy them mindlessly, because that's how you end up wondering why all of your nairs in neutral get whiff punished while all of M2K's connect cleanly and lead to 0-death combos. Take your time and analyze the specifics carefully.

I think all of the above is very important to understand before one can move on to figuring out when and how to apply conscious observations of one's opponent's general habits, move preferences, knee-jerk decisions, etc. to their gameplay. This is not only because of what I already mentioned about it being somewhat difficult at first to see the difference between those things and the ambiguous, yet objective information mentioned above, but also because making correct observations about your opponent's movement pattern isn't going to do you any good regardless if you're not confident about what exactly you're supposed to be doing in response. It's easy enough when it's just about DD grabbing a predictable nair approach from Fox, because that's a very basic interaction which Marth players figure out before they learn how to walk, but in many other scenarios it's not going to be as obvious at first glance. You need to experiment and grind that stuff in friendly sessions, so that when the situation arises in tournament, it's something you've seen a thousand times before and know the exact answer to, meaning you can simply leave the rest to your muscle memory. You know they're going to jump but is your dash attack going to be there in time if you do it right away? You don't have time to figure that out mid-match. Do it in advance.

I recommend anyone who has not yet done so to read The Inner Game of Tennis, and I recommend anyone who's already read it to read it again, because the mental framework which Timothy Gallwey puts forth - the interaction between Self 1 and Self 2 - is in my opinion the key to understanding this aspect of the game. To sum up the idea, the goal is to acquire a state of mind in which Self 1 (the brain) makes an observation and then (almost simultaneously) makes a decision about what to do, which then leads to an immediate, seamless transition to Self 2 (the body), who executes the decision flawlessly. In essence, you observe a situation, decide on the follow-up, and then you let the autopilot take over. The less interference, the better. Self 1 can only be a distraction while you're already in the middle of executing something, and Self 2 isn't conscious enough to make proper adjustments to whatever your opponent is doing. Assign each of them with the respective task at which they're an expert.



In short:

Internalize, internalize, internalize

Then observe and analyze

(but do it quickly this game is FAST)



I'd also like to point out that, although it was a struggle for me to approach these ideas initially, the satisfaction I got when I finally felt I had started to actually outplay my opponents in terms of decision making - as opposed to just out-executing and out-punishing them - was way beyond anything I'd gotten from Melee before that point. What I'm trying to say here is that it's worth learning, because it made a game that was already my favourite game of all time somehow become 10x better.




also sup Kevin you're still my favourite Marth (and Falco). Also think it's cool that you still hang around here and answer questions so thoroughly on a regular basis.
 
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Dr Peepee

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The only thing I'd really feel a strong urge to add to this is that good practice(shadowboxing mainly here) makes you more likely to be aware of situations you may not encounter in friendlies, since friendlies and people in general are still going to be pattern-oriented. You want to break out of this as much as possible, challenge yourself.

Also hey Beat! I was happy to see you posted again and wasn't disappointed haha. Hope you've been well =)
 

Beat!

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Yeah, that's a good point. You definitely need to keep putting more thought into your practice regimen as you progress, but I think introducing yourself to the more complex aspects of the game in friendlies is a good place to start, at least.

Heh, I've been checking this thread from time to time for quite a while, but couldn't come up with a whole lot of input until now. Always kinda missed prime smashboards.

I've been alright, but I've been unable to travel to tournaments for about two years due to personal reasons (still been actively playing locals/netplay/smashfests the entire time). Things are starting to look up lately, though. Went to a redbull tournament in Stockholm last week. Won teams with Big Leff, but placed a pretty disappointing 5th in singles. Wasn't too distraught about it, though, since it was my first tournament outside of my city since 2016 and I was mainly looking to prep for an upcoming LAN event in May with a ~$1800 prizepool.
 

Mahie

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I had no idea this topic was still as active as it is, but I'm glad I decide to check it on the day Beat! Beat! makes such a meaningful post. Interesting read and well formulated, I'm going to share it around.
 

Kopaka

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The only thing I'd really feel a strong urge to add to this is that good practice(shadowboxing mainly here) makes you more likely to be aware of situations you may not encounter in friendlies, since friendlies and people in general are still going to be pattern-oriented. You want to break out of this as much as possible, challenge yourself.

Also hey Beat! I was happy to see you posted again and wasn't disappointed haha. Hope you've been well =)
I'd pay to watch you shadowbox for 10 minutes
 

Kopaka

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I was thinking of doing a training stream day eventually so that will probably happen =p
Lets make practicing cool again. There's some stigma against practicing and how it's not cool. I totally fell into this awful conundrum where after I was given a local ranking I got super complacent and started placing worse after not practicing (DOING SO WAS WHY I GOT RANKED DUH). I just practiced solo by challenging my execution and ideas for as long as I could and started to think thoughts of "I cant wait to go to this next local to see if I can make this all pay off" instead of dreading it as another reason why I'd lead myself to believe I'm "washed up". That session was giving me energy. Sitting in front of the game by myself and working was giving me energy instead of wondering and worrying which was draining me.
 

Dr Peepee

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I can't even begin to imagine the amount of subs you will get the day you stream again
Honestly I often think about how awesome that day will be haha
Lets make practicing cool again. There's some stigma against practicing and how it's not cool. I totally fell into this awful conundrum where after I was given a local ranking I got super complacent and started placing worse after not practicing (DOING SO WAS WHY I GOT RANKED DUH). I just practiced solo by challenging my execution and ideas for as long as I could and started to think thoughts of "I cant wait to go to this next local to see if I can make this all pay off" instead of dreading it as another reason why I'd lead myself to believe I'm "washed up". That session was giving me energy. Sitting in front of the game by myself and working was giving me energy instead of wondering and worrying which was draining me.
Right, you want to chase what really feels good, the progression and immersion. Chasing rank for rank itself or forgetting about how awesome progress is just lets you stagnate until you get salty about how you've gotten worse. Ahhh...the salt cycle.

Yeah I think practicing was kind of cool for a little but Mango being the strongest community personality, and other top players never discussing practice and/or rarely practicing hurts our image and seriousness a lot. I will do my best to make it cool and fun for people!
 

maclo4

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I asked about this like months ago, but no I actually have a recording of it happening multiple times. This falco I play has started jabbing me after I jab him out of laser and it seems like theres nothing I can do (if hes close enough to jab). But yea I was wondering if you have thoughts on this cause in most of these it looks like "if he is close enough, then he can jab before you can attack him"
https://youtu.be/pIwl3vQOl8I?t=2m9s
https://youtu.be/pIwl3vQOl8I?t=4m42s
https://youtu.be/pIwl3vQOl8I?t=5m11s
https://youtu.be/pIwl3vQOl8I?t=5m16s

Also, its funny/Im embarassed that every single clip is the same exact thing where I dash attack to catch his laser, get hit by laser instead, then cover my tracks with jab. But also I think its a cool setup so w/e,,,,, cause if I miss and get hit by laser it essentially gets rid of dash attack's end lag and I can do whatever after that but I just chose to jab every time here without realizing the pattern
 

Sacredtwin11

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If he jabs after you jab you can ASDI down grab right? Also maybe your DAs are a little bit undershot since it seems they just barely miss in all those clips.
 

maclo4

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Oh nice thought I didn't even think of asdi down there. And yea thats what I was thinking too about the dash attacks being undershot
 

Dr Peepee

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I asked about this like months ago, but no I actually have a recording of it happening multiple times. This falco I play has started jabbing me after I jab him out of laser and it seems like theres nothing I can do (if hes close enough to jab). But yea I was wondering if you have thoughts on this cause in most of these it looks like "if he is close enough, then he can jab before you can attack him"
https://youtu.be/pIwl3vQOl8I?t=2m9s
https://youtu.be/pIwl3vQOl8I?t=4m42s
https://youtu.be/pIwl3vQOl8I?t=5m11s
https://youtu.be/pIwl3vQOl8I?t=5m16s

Also, its funny/Im embarassed that every single clip is the same exact thing where I dash attack to catch his laser, get hit by laser instead, then cover my tracks with jab. But also I think its a cool setup so w/e,,,,, cause if I miss and get hit by laser it essentially gets rid of dash attack's end lag and I can do whatever after that but I just chose to jab every time here without realizing the pattern
Adding onto what has already been said, it seems like you're a bit too close and/or too late on the jab in many of these instances since normally Falco shouldn't be able to jab out of your jab in my experience. The ASDI down grab is a good solution for this situation though.
 

Zorcey

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Dr Peepee Dr Peepee kinda going off the talk of practice in here, I'm trying to formulate a practice routine that'll be flexible enough for improvement, but consistent enough that I don't "learn" things and then have them fall out of my play because I don't do any housekeeping. I'm having trouble because that's a hard balance. I have dozens of pages of situation analysis all floating around a bunch of word documents along with ideas like learning shadowboxing, practicing in sequences, throw followup charts, fundamental tech lists, etc., but organization is just not a thing right now lol. But I think that's really important if I want to get the most (or really anything) out of what I'm doing. (The biggest point of confusion for me is how to stay fresh on matchup-specific microsituations - that situation of ASDIing down and grabbing a Falco counter-jab is a great example.)

I want to write more here, but I think I'll first ask if you have any broad organizational advice, put some thought into that, and then come back here with a tentative routine. I'll try that out for awhile and then report back on my progress lol.
 

Socrates

Smash Cadet
Joined
Aug 15, 2013
Messages
46
Here’s a vague question, hoping I can be as specific as possible. What’s the best way to deal with a player is mostly reactionary? What I mean is, they very rarely make the first move in neutral situations. It’s hard to describe because it honestly just feels like I’m being out played. For a specific example (against Fox), on platformed stages, they’ll start the match just hanging out under one of the side platforms. I’ll try and push in to antagonize them with dtilts (spaced just outside of SH nair range, not actually trying to hit them, just provoke) and I’ll dash in and out trying to get them to come out and commit to something, but more often than not they’ll just run up to the point right before i plan to dtilt and Usmash.

The more I think about this the more it just sounds like I’m too predictable. Is there any way to work on being less predictable?
 

Dr Peepee

Thanks for Everything <3
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BRoomer
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Dr Peepee Dr Peepee kinda going off the talk of practice in here, I'm trying to formulate a practice routine that'll be flexible enough for improvement, but consistent enough that I don't "learn" things and then have them fall out of my play because I don't do any housekeeping. I'm having trouble because that's a hard balance. I have dozens of pages of situation analysis all floating around a bunch of word documents along with ideas like learning shadowboxing, practicing in sequences, throw followup charts, fundamental tech lists, etc., but organization is just not a thing right now lol. But I think that's really important if I want to get the most (or really anything) out of what I'm doing. (The biggest point of confusion for me is how to stay fresh on matchup-specific microsituations - that situation of ASDIing down and grabbing a Falco counter-jab is a great example.)

I want to write more here, but I think I'll first ask if you have any broad organizational advice, put some thought into that, and then come back here with a tentative routine. I'll try that out for awhile and then report back on my progress lol.
What I do for practice is have some constants that I believe are most important, the anchors. Basic tech practice(+sequences) and shadowboxing primarily. Then with extra resources(before or after shadowboxing depending on how I want to structure it), I work on specific matchup stuff. I could also just do matchup stuff later since it's more about learning or than grinding in some cases. Maybe you'd find some of that useful.

Here’s a vague question, hoping I can be as specific as possible. What’s the best way to deal with a player is mostly reactionary? What I mean is, they very rarely make the first move in neutral situations. It’s hard to describe because it honestly just feels like I’m being out played. For a specific example (against Fox), on platformed stages, they’ll start the match just hanging out under one of the side platforms. I’ll try and push in to antagonize them with dtilts (spaced just outside of SH nair range, not actually trying to hit them, just provoke) and I’ll dash in and out trying to get them to come out and commit to something, but more often than not they’ll just run up to the point right before i plan to dtilt and Usmash.

The more I think about this the more it just sounds like I’m too predictable. Is there any way to work on being less predictable?
RC Dtilt is really reactable, so you want to dash long or just get into run and not Dtilt sometimes as a fake. Generally speaking, you want to deepen your approaches so you tie your movement in with other options like retreating Fair, Fair in place, Dtilt at various times, nothing, WD back, etc. This is likely an issue with your other approaches too.
 

quixotic

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 6, 2017
Messages
93
Hey pp I started doing the thing you talked about where you move closer to your opponent during lag to beat an immediate attack/spotdodge, and I’ve been mixing up the close and far spacing. I feel like I’m still missing a part of the mixup where my opponent playing sheik will just stand still and overshoot depending on the spacing i choose. I’ve been able to consistently beat immediate dash attack but my roommate doesn’t do this option anymore. What do I do to beat sheik running at me?

I’m also uncertain about when to go for callouts after their lag like using jump fair or rc/wd dtilt. Should immediate options be used sparingly? I think these immediate options could beat what I mentioned above but I’m not sure how good they are.
 
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Zorcey

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 12, 2015
Messages
371
What I do for practice is have some constants that I believe are most important, the anchors. Basic tech practice(+sequences) and shadowboxing primarily. Then with extra resources(before or after shadowboxing depending on how I want to structure it), I work on specific matchup stuff. I could also just do matchup stuff later since it's more about learning or than grinding in some cases. Maybe you'd find some of that useful.
Yeah, this is the stuff I was considering, but I need some clarifiers:

I'm correct in considering shadowboxing to be an extension or "advancement" of positional study, right? How do I go about it once I've picked out a position? If the situation I'm playing out is, say, Falco on a side platform on BF, and Marth has center, what do you do from there? Falco can (shield) drop > laser, runoff aerial, FH to top platform, etc., and each of these requires a different response from me. When you practice do you run a situation multiple times in all the relevant scenarios, or at least recommend that? If you don't, how do you pick your opponent's options before proceeding to the next situation?

For sequences, open-ended ones that give me the ability to observe opponents and adjust are what I'm looking for, right? Also keep them as short as possible ("keep it simple," "no excessive movement"). Do you like to practice specific sequences for different matchups, or think it's better to have them be universal? Could you give me some examples to get me started?
 

Dr Peepee

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Hey pp I started doing the thing you talked about where you move closer to your opponent during lag to beat an immediate attack/spotdodge, and I’ve been mixing up the close and far spacing. I feel like I’m still missing a part of the mixup where my opponent playing sheik will just stand still and overshoot depending on the spacing i choose. I’ve been able to consistently beat immediate dash attack but my roommate doesn’t do this option anymore. What do I do to beat sheik running at me?

I’m also uncertain about when to go for callouts after their lag like using jump fair or rc/wd dtilt. Should immediate options be used sparingly? I think these immediate options could beat what I mentioned above but I’m not sure how good they are.
Run in grab, Dtilt in place(best option generally), and late Fair or just dash/WD back will beat Sheik running in. You could also try some rising retreating Fair if you wanted to. I don't really understand your problem besides that, but if it's just about Sheik running in then I'd think that would solve it.

If you discourage her running in a lot then you can go in more, but if you're also a bit farther away so she won't attack you can be more likely to go in, though you're also going to be more easily reacted to.

Yeah, this is the stuff I was considering, but I need some clarifiers:

I'm correct in considering shadowboxing to be an extension or "advancement" of positional study, right? How do I go about it once I've picked out a position? If the situation I'm playing out is, say, Falco on a side platform on BF, and Marth has center, what do you do from there? Falco can (shield) drop > laser, runoff aerial, FH to top platform, etc., and each of these requires a different response from me. When you practice do you run a situation multiple times in all the relevant scenarios, or at least recommend that? If you don't, how do you pick your opponent's options before proceeding to the next situation?

For sequences, open-ended ones that give me the ability to observe opponents and adjust are what I'm looking for, right? Also keep them as short as possible ("keep it simple," "no excessive movement"). Do you like to practice specific sequences for different matchups, or think it's better to have them be universal? Could you give me some examples to get me started?
Well first, you'd practice your responses and go through them slowly and build speed, just like tech practice. Then you mix them. Then you begin one and see he picked another, how do you adjust? You just do things like that which simulate real matches and come up with as much as you to complicate it that pushes your existing knowledge. Start simply.

Some for observation are good, some to set up approaches are fine, and really you'll have observation in just about any of them(like even a RC Dtilt gives you time to observe as dash becomes run, so really no excuse to not observe doing compound movements).

Dash in WD back, dash back RC/WD in Dtilt(and do nothing after move in as mixup), dash in Fair in place/retreating fair/nothing are fine starts
 

quixotic

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 6, 2017
Messages
93
I was thinking of a situation like this one when sheik is landing and I'm trying to position myself via dash dancing:

https://youtu.be/AL1RZJbycQA?t=52s

I'm trying to position myself outside of immediate dash attack range as a mixup where sometimes I enter that range to threaten grab and sometimes I stay back.

I feel like in this spot I don't have access to dtilt/jump fair and my dash back gets called out.
 

Dr Peepee

Thanks for Everything <3
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You dashed away when you had a pretty easy confirm on the landing, that was your problem there. If you just kept moving in you'd have been able to pressure the landing, even if not directly. This Sheik knew you like to dash back a lot so they overshot afterward, not feeling any threat from your dash in now even though you dashed directly up to them after they landed.
 

quixotic

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 6, 2017
Messages
93
In that specific spot is there an option I could have done that would beat both immediate dash attack and the overshoot dash attack that he did?
 
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