Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Kopaka]

I liked this a lot as well. I think that it's better to lose if you know why you lost than to just lose out of panic.

Right. For one to get better...one has to learn...in order to get better..right? Wanting to learn and wanting to get better should go hand in hand. You cant have one without the other. You cant want to learn if you don't want to get better. Otherwise it's like, why are you learning lol. The driving force behind wanting to win should be willingness to learn as much as possible.

The desire to win should be sitting in the passenger seat, while the desire to learn should be the one driving. Learning is driving Winning down the road it wants to go. Without Winning, Learning would be driving in the wrong direction. Winning knows exactly where it wants to go, and only through Learning can Winning be taken there.

Keep all your nasty back-seat drivers, the ones that gnaw at you at the worst possible times to "do this better! No! you should have done this! Why did you do that again!?" in the trunk

 

[FE_Hector]

Keep all your nasty back-seat drivers, the ones that gnaw at you at the worst possible times to "do this better! No! you should have done this! Why did you do that again!?" in the trunk

I agree that you should keep these in the trunk, but you should also learn to appreciate them, in my opinion. I'd say that you should ignore them during the match and focus on them afterwards. If you noticed, for example, "If I'd gone in a little bit further, I could have Ken Combo'd there," then don't dwell on it during the match. Focus on it afterwards and try to exhibit a bit more self-control in the future. Don't be discouraged, but keep them in mind.

 

[A_Reverie]

To win is your reward for having learned, and to lose is your reward for having been tested. Either way, you're always learning.

I've been playing on netplay a lot recently, and I've learned a lot about myself thanks to it. I've learned that I get frustrated and panic when something I want to do isn't happening. Shield-grabbing is something I do when I'm panicked because of how great Marth's punishes from grabs usually are. Shield grabbing is awful, but my panicked mind isn't concerned with it. When my focus is in the wrong place (in this instance, just trying to win) I cease to understand what's happening and why, and as a result I start losing. I can't tell you how many times I have had to deliberately stop myself from getting upset or angry. I've sat at my computer and literally told myself "shut up and play your neutral." Then the shield grabs stop and I'm gaining more ground.

This is just one example, but it puts into perspective how much is involved when talking about mindset. There's a lot of control you have to train yourself to have, and the only real way to do that is by exposing yourself to challenging and potentially frustrating situations. You have to play people that will make you put in work. It isn't something that can be grinded out in the lab. You can't just tell yourself you don't care about losing. You have to leave your comfort zone. Find out what flaws you have in your own mind and how they affect your play. It's a great way to learn about yourself.

 

[Kopaka]

To win is your reward for having learned, and to lose is your reward for having been tested. Either way, you're always learning.

You have to leave your comfort zone. Find out what flaws you have in your own mind and how they affect your play. It's a great way to learn about yourself.

It's funny how like everything we've all said here can pretty much be tied into... The Inner Game of Tennis. lol. Having to leave your comfort zone is very important.

But really though, this book is super good. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUdTxXkecr8

I agree that you should keep these in the trunk, but you should also learn to appreciate them, in my opinion.

Exactly. I had second thoughts about instead writing "Leave them at home..." But since that's impossible the only thing you can really do is know that they will always be there but that you have the power to keep them quiet and instead feed other more important parts of your thinking. They should also be the driving force behind wanting to perform focused, etc.

 

[AirFair]

Hey Dr Peepee , I've noticed that one thing that I've seen you do, as well as some other marths, is that when they have an opponent at the edge, and their opponent is in shield, often times they will just jump/wd back for a tipper and hit them out of shield when they try to move.

An example you might remember: https://youtu.be/00kWf6lvDhU?t=5m5s

In this case, ppu went for a shield grab as you landed the nair on his shield, so that fsmash made sense. From what I know, I BELIEVE that tipper fsmash is safe on shield. Assuming I'm correct, if I have an opponent at the edge with their shield up, would this be a good strategy? from your experience, would you rather go for delayed fair/dtilt/grab?

It just seems like a mixup, but it might actually be good if you can get them to drop shield (by shieldgrabbing as you wd back for the fsmash, or sh back for tipper)

 

[NIFOFD]

Hey Dr Peepee , I've noticed that one thing that I've seen you do, as well as some other marths, is that when they have an opponent at the edge, and their opponent is in shield, often times they will just jump/wd back for a tipper and hit them out of shield when they try to move.

An example you might remember: https://youtu.be/00kWf6lvDhU?t=5m5s

In this case, ppu went for a shield grab as you landed the nair on his shield, so that fsmash made sense. From what I know, I BELIEVE that tipper fsmash is safe on shield. Assuming I'm correct, if I have an opponent at the edge with their shield up, would this be a good strategy? from your experience, would you rather go for delayed fair/dtilt/grab?

It just seems like a mixup, but it might actually be good if you can get them to drop shield (by shieldgrabbing as you wd back for the fsmash, or sh back for tipper)

IIRC, PP winds up getting hit in a similar situation later in the set too.

 

[AirFair]

similar situations I saw
5:31 He fsmashes ppu as he gets off the ledge, but ppu powershields it. Was he looking for the ledgedash? he was charging beforehand. Doesn't get punished here.
Besides that, there isn't anything else matching what I'm describing from what I saw, since i just rewatched it, since the other fsmashes were either weak on shield/not at the edge, or they were used properly (against aerials at high%, or to edgeguard)

 

[NIFOFD]

similar situations I saw
5:31 He fsmashes ppu as he gets off the ledge, but ppu powershields it. Was he looking for the ledgedash? he was charging beforehand. Doesn't get punished here.
Besides that, there isn't anything else matching what I'm describing from what I saw, since i just rewatched it, since the other fsmashes were either weak on shield/not at the edge, or they were used properly (against aerials at high%, or to edgeguard)

What about at around the 10min mark?
https://youtu.be/00kWf6lvDhU?t=9m57s

 

[AirFair]

While relevant to the study of it's use, it doesn't match what I said, since I tried to be really specific. Thanks for giving me something to look at tho

 

[Dr Peepee]

Hey Dr Peepee , I've noticed that one thing that I've seen you do, as well as some other marths, is that when they have an opponent at the edge, and their opponent is in shield, often times they will just jump/wd back for a tipper and hit them out of shield when they try to move.

An example you might remember: https://youtu.be/00kWf6lvDhU?t=5m5s

In this case, ppu went for a shield grab as you landed the nair on his shield, so that fsmash made sense. From what I know, I BELIEVE that tipper fsmash is safe on shield. Assuming I'm correct, if I have an opponent at the edge with their shield up, would this be a good strategy? from your experience, would you rather go for delayed fair/dtilt/grab?

It just seems like a mixup, but it might actually be good if you can get them to drop shield (by shieldgrabbing as you wd back for the fsmash, or sh back for tipper)

In that particular example I didn't even have to guess since I just reacted to PPU's grab that he did late for some reason. Doesn't mean I wasn't trying to set it up though because I was.

Tipper is safe on shield. That's not really the good part of this though. Marth can hit people coming out of shield if he stands out or range which already is painful, but he can also grab and punish. So a lot of the time acting as if Marth will grab then backing up and Fsmashing hits someone visually confirming the (grab) approach.

Tipper Fsmash is usually dodged by moving, often moving backward or sometimes rolling. You can't move backward when cornered and you are reluctant to roll much since Marth is typically covering center very well. That makes the option strong in itself, but it's also why Marth can swing more freely when the opponent is cornered(the opponent can't back up and punish).

I'm not backing up into Fsmash all day though it's still sparingly used by me. However it's possible a player could put more weight on this option and its mixups(run up WD back into observe or SH to cover rolls or set up pressure as an alternate to run up WD back Fsmash for one).

 

[AirFair]

A more reactive approach at the corner. Thanks so much!

 

[TheRealSkid]

Hi. I have a few questions:
1. I have seen in multiple sources that crouch cancelling is a great tool when you're at low percents, but what type of application would it have?
2. This one is kind of a noob question but I am constantly hit by Raptor Boost -> Knee off of a read or a flubbed wavedash. Is there an ideal DI or answer to this that I should know and learn? Can it be punished before the knee can come out?
3. Finally, what would you say is the most important concept to know as a marth player or even in melee in general?

 

[Life]

Hi. I have a few questions:
1. I have seen in multiple sources that crouch cancelling is a great tool when you're at low percents, but what type of application would it have?
2. This one is kind of a noob question but I am constantly hit by Raptor Boost -> Knee off of a read or a flubbed wavedash. Is there an ideal DI or answer to this that I should know and learn? Can it be punished before the knee can come out?
3. Finally, what would you say is the most important concept to know as a marth player or even in melee in general?

1. Crouch canceling is good because it dramatically reduces the amount of knockback you take from attacks. Frequently, this means you take so little stun that you can retaliate against your opponent before their attack animation has even ended. Some moves commonly used out of CC (depending on the character) include jab (eh), dtilt (good for Marth), dsmash (you'll see Peach or Samus do this particularly often), grab, fsmash (also both good Marth ones), usmash (particularly Fox), upB (particularly Samus), and shine (space animals, natch). So for example if you're at low percent and they're at high percent and you want to fsmash them but you don't trust yourself to just throw out a raw one, try to get them to SHFFL an aerial at you or dash attack or something and then hold down to CC it.

2. Depends on the percent. Obviously, it's best to not get hit by Raptor Boost at all (try to not let Falcon bait you with it), but your goal is to put yourself in a position where you won't get hit by knee. At low percents, you can just hold down and you'll either CC it entirely (in which case feel free to do whatever to Falcon because he's in more lag than you) or later you'll get instant knockdown (in which case it's now a tech chase). There will be times you just can't escape the combo, and that's fine--welcome to Falcon, LOL! Eventually it'll send you too high to confirm directly into knee, anyway. (Also, work on not flubbing those wavedashes! If you see the airdodge you're too slow, if you only get a jump you're too fast!)

3. All roads lead to Rome, but most of us will never go there. If your goal is to win against the best someday, well, everything is important. But really, the answer to your question is the answer to the question I'm trying to ask you here, which is this: what are you trying to get out of playing Melee, exactly?

 

[TheRealSkid]

Life What an awesome post. Thanks so so much! I will definitely work on everything you just said.

what are you trying to get out of playing Melee, exactly?
​

For me, it's a combination of having fun and learning to become one of the best someday. It's also something new and exciting to learn, which I always love.

 

[Dr. Bread]

dunno if this has been asked yet, but i feel like im very vulnerable at low percents vs. falcon and sheik, and it feels like im not able to get much out of neutral wins. It seems like a lot of my hits dont give me an opening even when not crouch cancelled, and it seems like there isn't much in the way of grab followups.
is that just the way it is? or are there specific moves to opt for at these percentages.

 

[MookieRah]

@

dunno if this has been asked yet, but i feel like im very vulnerable at low percents vs. falcon and sheik, and it feels like im not able to get much out of neutral wins. It seems like a lot of my hits dont give me an opening even when not crouch cancelled, and it seems like there isn't much in the way of grab followups.
is that just the way it is? or are there specific moves to opt for at these percentages.

Get the 20XX mod. Practice situations, like 0 to 20% CF at center stage on battlefield. Learn what works and what doesn't. Learn what works best in a general sense and what works in special cases (such as teching or DIing a certain way). After you have done this a lot on several stages, discovering great options along the way, you will begin to make the most off of your neutral wins.

In general I'd say to also work on chaingrabbing the spacies, as well as tech chasing on reaction. Those are very important on their own, but they will also greatly improve your reaction time.

EDIT:
At low percents, there really isn't too much you can do against Sheik or CF, at least nothing that is guaranteed. What I tend to do is go for a tech chase if they are below 20%. You can always upthrow into a platform and try and see what you can get out of uairs/utilts as well. I think around 25% an upthrow utilt is quite good against Sheik, and around 30-40% it opens up on Falcon as well.

Like I said, play around with your options with the 20XX bot and build your own picture. Once you have some experience with it, then you should search for what experts say is optimal but I advise doing that only after you are educated on the basics of that circumstance.

 

[AirFair]

Low percent options vs Falcon? I don't know of any guaranteed setups.
I think that techchasing up to 30% is one of the best things to do at low percents if you get the grab, because utilts and uairs can be cc'd on platforms and after 30% you can start getting utilt out of uthrow

Sheik is different, because the earliest percent that I had memorized where utilt off of uthrow is guaranteed is 21%. Imo it's kind of like falcon. You can get fthrow regrabs at low percents on DI in, and you can techchase decently. Just get hits till about 18% and then uthrow and you will most likely be at guaranteed percent for utilt.

Also nair is a good combo move up to like 30% if you have her on a platform.

 

[Milquesteak]

Hey Dr Peepee , I've been playing with Marth for a few months and I've got a couple of questions about improving my dashdancing in neutral. Right now my goal is to get in that sweet spot of movement pressure where I'm fleeting in and out of their effective range to represent a threat to their space, while still making sure I can react and address any option they take. I'm still pretty bad, so it doesn't always work out, mostly because I'll get predictable with my movement, or not react properly, but I'm getting better.

My questions are:

1. Does my movement in neutral situations like these have to be so reaction based? Or can I use this movement more proactively to create situations where I can benefit, but it doesn't require my opponent screwing up?

2. I've noticed that your dashdancing looks a lot more micro-managed and deliberate than most others, and I want to try to incorporate some of that into my game. What are some good ways to mix up Marth's ground movement to keep pressure on my opponents in neutral?

 

[FE_Hector]

Hey Dr Peepee , I've been playing with Marth for a few months and I've got a couple of questions about improving my dashdancing in neutral. Right now my goal is to get in that sweet spot of movement pressure where I'm fleeting in and out of their effective range to represent a threat to their space, while still making sure I can react and address any option they take. I'm still pretty bad, so it doesn't always work out, mostly because I'll get predictable with my movement, or not react properly, but I'm getting better.

My questions are:

1. Does my movement in neutral situations like these have to be so reaction based? Or can I use this movement more proactively to create situations where I can benefit, but it doesn't require my opponent screwing up?

2. I've noticed that your dashdancing looks a lot more micro-managed and deliberate than most others, and I want to try to incorporate some of that into my game. What are some good ways to mix up Marth's ground movement to keep pressure on my opponents in neutral?

Even more Raleigh hype ^-^. Obviously I'm not PPMD, but I think that your goal is the right one, but you're forming way too much of a pattern. You want to threaten their space effectively with some preemptive dtilts, too. On top of that, you should always be varying your DD length. Reacting to these situations is an ability that's developed over time. IDK, this feels like it might be one of those far less mechanical things.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Hey Dr Peepee , I've been playing with Marth for a few months and I've got a couple of questions about improving my dashdancing in neutral. Right now my goal is to get in that sweet spot of movement pressure where I'm fleeting in and out of their effective range to represent a threat to their space, while still making sure I can react and address any option they take. I'm still pretty bad, so it doesn't always work out, mostly because I'll get predictable with my movement, or not react properly, but I'm getting better.

My questions are:

1. Does my movement in neutral situations like these have to be so reaction based? Or can I use this movement more proactively to create situations where I can benefit, but it doesn't require my opponent screwing up?

2. I've noticed that your dashdancing looks a lot more micro-managed and deliberate than most others, and I want to try to incorporate some of that into my game. What are some good ways to mix up Marth's ground movement to keep pressure on my opponents in neutral?

Your big problem here is you don't have Marth's rules and character knowledge, and some neutral theory internalized. First of all, less is more. Don't worry about moving all of the time so much as having effective movement when necessary. If you know why you're doing every single action you're doing then you won't be sweating everything so much. You'll know why you're losing and where you're winning. If you want to be proactive, push into someone's space and make them act. This doesn't mean run them down it just means push in. I try to do this all of the time so you can watch me to get an idea for it.

But more important than all of this is you know what you're threatening with. Your DD can be the best in the world in itself but if you can't well out of it then it doesn't matter. Are your Dtilts frame tight and do you know how to condition with it? Do you know where the space is for Fox dash SH Nair and where to pivot grab it? You have to be able to appropriately threaten and understand how Marth can't swing so much but make his swings count in order to move well. So to learn movement, learn moves. Learn how Fair and Dtilt and grab work together and force the opponent to make hard choices. If you don't know that, then worry about movement afterward.

 

[Ladder]

sorry I don't know how to delete this post

 

[xXadevs2000Xx]

Dr Peepee What do you think of this tech?
http://smashboards.com/threads/double-stick-di-out-of-marths-platform-combos.403279/

How badly do you think it hurts Marth, since we've been relying on uair techchasing a lot even though there's an easy way to get out under 56%

 

[Dr Peepee]

Dr Peepee What do you think of this tech?
http://smashboards.com/threads/double-stick-di-out-of-marths-platform-combos.403279/

How badly do you think it hurts Marth, since we've been relying on uair techchasing a lot even though there's an easy way to get out under 56%

I think, but have not yet fully tested, a way to handle this. A simple way to begin working on this is adding more tipper utilt/Fsmash into one's game. This works on non-DL levels and punishes holding down a lot more(Utilt not always as much as Fsmash but that depends on percent). I think there's a more complex way to handle it, that could even make use of those tools, but I haven't fully explored it yet so I don't wish to give out unverified information.

 

[FE_Hector]

I think, but have not yet fully tested, a way to handle this. A simple way to begin working on this is adding more tipper utilt/Fsmash into one's game. This works on non-DL levels and punishes holding down a lot more(Utilt not always as much as Fsmash but that depends on percent). I think there's a more complex way to handle it, that could even make use of those tools, but I haven't fully explored it yet so I don't wish to give out unverified information.

Might this involve WL back fsmash instead of delayed uair to cover the whole plat?

 

[AirFair]

You could maybe use nair? I don't know if it has the same problem, but the only other thing I could think of would maybe be to WL onto the platform when they tech or miss. As for whether that's a good position or not I'm leaning towards a less advantageous one.

 

[ridemyboat]

I'd guess that you'd want to position yourself so that you can nair, fair or fsmash if they roll on the platform. You can probably cover one side with fsmash or nair, and fair them if they roll to the other side or get a regrab.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Might this involve WL back fsmash instead of delayed uair to cover the whole plat?

That's mad slow and would only work at higher percents/on not tech in place I believe.

You could maybe use nair? I don't know if it has the same problem, but the only other thing I could think of would maybe be to WL onto the platform when they tech or miss. As for whether that's a good position or not I'm leaning towards a less advantageous one.

Nair hits between 1-3 of 4 options for tech chasing on platforms depending on stage and sometimes you aren't able to set it up in time. It's something I've definitely enjoyed using, but as you can see from Apex sets, it is far from foolproof.

 

[FE_Hector]

Dr Peepee I saw that you were confirmed for the Five Gods event in March. Are you just hoping your energy will be back, just trying to get out to an event, seeing how well you'll hold up in the environment, or something like that? Just curious.

 

[xXadevs2000Xx]

/on not tech in place I believe

Well if they're doing that tech, they would need to be at the edge of the platform, so unless they land at the edge, they would need to tech roll.

But yeah, if you can't cover the tech in place then even if they are able to do the technique, they could still mixup and punish you heavily for going with that option.

 

[Ladder]

Dr Peepee I saw that you were confirmed for the Five Gods event in March. Are you just hoping your energy will be back, just trying to get out to an event, seeing how well you'll hold up in the environment, or something like that? Just curious.

What is this five god event? :o

 

[Dr Peepee]

Dr Peepee I saw that you were confirmed for the Five Gods event in March. Are you just hoping your energy will be back, just trying to get out to an event, seeing how well you'll hold up in the environment, or something like that? Just curious.

We kinda doin the hail mary on this one LOL

But I do have ongoing stuff I think will help me, so we will see.

Well if they're doing that tech, they would need to be at the edge of the platform, so unless they land at the edge, they would need to tech roll.

But yeah, if you can't cover the tech in place then even if they are able to do the technique, they could still mixup and punish you heavily for going with that option.

You have to jump without knowing which they will do in order to Nair, and Nair could only sometimes cover where they land depending on % and where they DI and what stage you're on.

Nair is more vulnerable to tech away shield drop aerial in my experience but it depends on circumstances of the setup and how Marth uses Nair.

 

[FE_Hector]

What is this five god event? :o

The 5 Gods of Melee vs 20 challengers. I wanna say there's $25k on the line. fivegods.com is where all the info is gonna be housed

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Dr Peepee Do you think Marth is the most expressive character in the game? Or does that title go to Fox?

By expressive I mean you are able to do pretty much anything you want with the character and express yourself through the character and still have success in overcoming challenges and obstacles. I feel like Fox can be a very expressive character, but so many people just do the same "traditional" stuff with him, like they are following a formula. I feel like Marth can do this too, but since you're more experienced with him, I'd like your take on it.

Also as a follow-up question, how do you think someone could play the game in a more expressive manner? How does someone have a play-style that is flexible yet still really effective? What comes to mind are players like Lord where they play an unorthodox style that seems to work. Is this just them expressing themselves through the game in a smart and effective way? How could mid-level players try to adapt this "free-form jazz" kind of playing Melee?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Dr Peepee Do you think Marth is the most expressive character in the game? Or does that title go to Fox?

By expressive I mean you are able to do pretty much anything you want with the character and express yourself through the character and still have success in overcoming challenges and obstacles. I feel like Fox can be a very expressive character, but so many people just do the same "traditional" stuff with him, like they are following a formula. I feel like Marth can do this too, but since you're more experienced with him, I'd like your take on it.

Also as a follow-up question, how do you think someone could play the game in a more expressive manner? How does someone have a play-style that is flexible yet still really effective? What comes to mind are players like Lord where they play an unorthodox style that seems to work. Is this just them expressing themselves through the game in a smart and effective way? How could mid-level players try to adapt this "free-form jazz" kind of playing Melee?

I do think Fox is the most expressive character. This means that I think Fox has the most options basically, or highest number of successful effective option combinations. This just allows for more varied decision-making to still be successful.

However, this doesn't mean that Fox has overlapping decision-making with much of what Marth does, or with a great amount of Falco. Sure, there are some similar ways of doing things between Fox and Falco, and Marth and Sheik, but there is a ton of specific expression unique to the characters. Falco's laser alone makes him very different. Sheik's SH alone for her. Marth's disjoint and dash length. On the similarities side, Fox and Falco can both be pretty technical, even with shield pressure. Fox can also set up some Bair zoning plays like Marth and Sheik might with Fair.

I could go on and on about whatever specific overlapping amount of abilities Fox can cover other characters also can, but I think it's missing the point that each character has their own deep way to be expressive among some different forms. Just because they don't vary as much as Fox doesn't mean you can't be deeply expressive. For example, let's take Marth. While he can be a character who swings and is successful, I will be talking about the Marth I play who follows my rules like "less is more." Since there is a powerful strength in movement and swinging rarely, people might suggest that this limits the character. However, Marth has loads of variations in his movement, in exactly the moment he decides to swing, and many options after swinging. Enough to satisfy anyone's personal transformation as a player or person within that perspective, and enough to where they can learn the rules well enough to begin breaking them.

I think a question of who is most expressive is fine, but a question of who is most expressive for a particular individual is more constructive in the long term.

 

[Dr. Bread]

I do think Fox is the most expressive character. This means that I think Fox has the most options basically, or highest number of successful effective option combinations. This just allows for more varied decision-making to still be successful.

However, this doesn't mean that Fox has overlapping decision-making with much of what Marth does, or with a great amount of Falco. Sure, there are some similar ways of doing things between Fox and Falco, and Marth and Sheik, but there is a ton of specific expression unique to the characters. Falco's laser alone makes him very different. Sheik's SH alone for her. Marth's disjoint and dash length. On the similarities side, Fox and Falco can both be pretty technical, even with shield pressure. Fox can also set up some Bair zoning plays like Marth and Sheik might with Fair.

I could go on and on about whatever specific overlapping amount of abilities Fox can cover other characters also can, but I think it's missing the point that each character has their own deep way to be expressive among some different forms. Just because they don't vary as much as Fox doesn't mean you can't be deeply expressive. For example, let's take Marth. While he can be a character who swings and is successful, I will be talking about the Marth I play who follows my rules like "less is more." Since there is a powerful strength in movement and swinging rarely, people might suggest that this limits the character. However, Marth has loads of variations in his movement, in exactly the moment he decides to swing, and many options after swinging. Enough to satisfy anyone's personal transformation as a player or person within that perspective, and enough to where they can learn the rules well enough to begin breaking them.

I think a question of who is most expressive is fine, but a question of who is most expressive for a particular individual is more constructive in the long term.

im guessing what you mean when you say 'less is more' is that you can set yourself up for advantage without locking yourself into some kind of comittment?

 

[Dr Peepee]

That's pretty much it.

 

[AirFair]

So, a specific situation that I wanted to look more into was a dilemma that I'm sure a good portion of you have, and it's when marth is in the air and comes down with fair (lol) in order to protect himself. The issue with this is that though it provides a cover in front of you, it's laggy, and can be dashdance grabbed if your opponent reacts to it.

An example: https://youtu.be/K6E6Zp5sYvs?t=24s

I've been trying to think of ways around it (besides not being in the air like that without a jump) and I can't really think of any answer

Breaking it down on my own, I don't think that coming down with any different aerial, like nair, would give me any better of a result, because the others have about the same, if not more lag than fair.

I also don't think that coming down with nothing is a good idea either, UNLESS your opponent were expecting you to throw out a move like that, which, I wouldn't rely on because that's them reacting to a bad habit of mine, and I wouldn't want to keep that bad habit just to exploit them IN the case that they continue to cover it.

So where does that leave Marth? it seems that almost every time he's in the air without a jump, he's got little to no chance of coming down safely, at least, without a platform or double jump.

What do you think Dr Peepee ? I feel like I'm missing something, and it frustrates me that I can't think of an adequate answer despite my experience.

 

[Smash G 0 D]

Don't undervalue the power of *doing nothing*. Empty landings are earned by conditioning your opponent to expect an attack on the way down, and can be your key to a grab or an assertion of stage control. If you're really afraid, you can air-dodge either in place, or perhaps through your opponent's shield, or onto a platform, etc., but I would probably choose this option less often than an empty landing. In that scenario you posted, I think a Dtilt or Jab after landing would have covered the dash-in grab. If Fox was close enough to have grabbed before either of those moves came out after an empty landing, then I think the Fair would have hit him... could be wrong, though.

Also, you can waveland back or forward.

Between Fair, empty-landing, and WD back/forward, you have some decent options.

Landing is still an issue for Marth, but these options are what I would keep in mind for the scenario in which you are coming down and your opponent is in front of you, NOT juggling you or directly beneath.

 

[xXadevs2000Xx]

An example: https://youtu.be/K6E6Zp5sYvs?t=24s

Although your comments were very understandable and true, I'm pretty sure PP could have dashed away from that grab. He decided to put up shield instead, presumably because he was anticipating a SH nair or some other attack. (dash would have been better...)

 

[lokt]

So, a specific situation that I wanted to look more into was a dilemma that I'm sure a good portion of you have, and it's when marth is in the air and comes down with fair (lol) in order to protect himself. The issue with this is that though it provides a cover in front of you, it's laggy, and can be dashdance grabbed if your opponent reacts to it.

if i predict that fox will run forward like that i like buffer roll, grab, and dash forward.