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outofphase

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 13, 2012
Messages
142
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cleveland
I guess I have a couple fairly straightforward questions for whoever wants to answer or discuss...

1) When you are in dash dance range and want a Dtilt, do you pivot or wavedash in place to get the spacing you want?

2) I seem to have a hard time keeping control, especially over fast-fallers, when the opponent is on top platform. I usually attempt to keep myself grounded and cover him coming down on reaction with a Utilt or Ftilt but I often find it very hard not to get baited into whiffing. Is there a better way to deal with this or is it something I need to learn how to read better?

3) Last one, but I was doing some "lab work" and from what I could gather, it seemed to be that the fastest way to cover my opponents techs was by shielding as close as possible and then WDOOS into grab or Dtilt. Obviously this isn't always the best option, but does anybody know if it is truly the fastest?
 
D

Deleted member

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kudos to everyone that joined our marth and positioning panel at the registration desk on saturday with me and kevin. we definitely had a crowd going pretty quick. we should do that again, it was actually a lot of fun.
 

PCwizCube

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 10, 2010
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United States
If you D-throw fox offstage, and you d-tilt them to cover their jump, should they be able to jump and sweetspot the ledge? Because against one fox I play, whenever I d-tilt after d-throw, I always miss him and he grabs the ledge for free. Sometimes other things like f-smash, run off f-air, or grab ledge work but those are riskier and I'd like to know if there are better options (or if I'm just doing d-tilt wrong).
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
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Aug 31, 2005
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Jarrettsville, MD
If you D-throw fox offstage, and you d-tilt them to cover their jump, should they be able to jump and sweetspot the ledge? Because against one fox I play, whenever I d-tilt after d-throw, I always miss him and he grabs the ledge for free. Sometimes other things like f-smash, run off f-air, or grab ledge work but those are riskier and I'd like to know if there are better options (or if I'm just doing d-tilt wrong).
Kadano did an in-depth GIF-fest showing the different ways Fox can sweetspot around dtilt. Most people don't actually sweetspot so you are likely just mistiming the dtilt, but if he is good at it, it's totally possible that you're unable to dtilt on some of his sweetspots (unless it's YS, in which case you can always hit him). Focus on when he jumps and you'll probably hit him a lot more often. You can also try WDing onto the ledge/WDing off and fairing after the dthrow if he always goes low to DJ sweetspot.
 

PCwizCube

Smash Cadet
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Kadano did an in-depth GIF-fest showing the different ways Fox can sweetspot around dtilt. Most people don't actually sweetspot so you are likely just mistiming the dtilt, but if he is good at it, it's totally possible that you're unable to dtilt on some of his sweetspots (unless it's YS, in which case you can always hit him). Focus on when he jumps and you'll probably hit him a lot more often. You can also try WDing onto the ledge/WDing off and fairing after the dthrow if he always goes low to DJ sweetspot.
Thanks!

For Kadano's GIFs, are you talking about when he was showing how Fox's side b can sweetspot around d-tilt? (first post) Or was it something else? And about the timing, I'll try to time with respect to his jump. Also, for the d-tilt hitboxes, is it easier to hit them with the tip of the d-tilt or the hilt? Because I've seen pros do both but I don't know which one is easier to land with.
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
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Messages
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Jarrettsville, MD
Thanks!

For Kadano's GIFs, are you talking about when he was showing how Fox's side b can sweetspot around d-tilt? (first post) Or was it something else? And about the timing, I'll try to time with respect to his jump. Also, for the d-tilt hitboxes, is it easier to hit them with the tip of the d-tilt or the hilt? Because I've seen pros do both but I don't know which one is easier to land with.
He definitely did one concerning spacies' DJ sweetspots. The hilt doesn't hit as low as the tip, so you typically (hehe) want to space for a tip or at least a mid-distance hitbox. Kadano covers this in that post as well, if you can find it.
 

PCwizCube

Smash Cadet
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Last edited:

Game Freak201

Smash Rookie
Joined
Apr 16, 2009
Messages
18
I've been going up against a Falco main frequently as of late and laser camping has been the death of me so far. Typically, I weave in and out of my opponents' attacks through dash dancing until they make a mistake which I would then follow up with a grab. Falco's low lasers; however, hamper such a strategy to being ineffective. I've been thinking of trying to approach with power shields, but I still get shield pressured to death from shines and dairs. Wave dashing into dtilt was also something I've been thinking of, but crouching keeps me rather still, not to mention that the jumping portion of wave dashing can still get punished by a fast enough Falco.

So what would be the best method of approaching a Falco pressuring me with lasers?
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
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I've been going up against a Falco main frequently as of late and laser camping has been the death of me so far. Typically, I weave in and out of my opponents' attacks through dash dancing until they make a mistake which I would then follow up with a grab. Falco's low lasers; however, hamper such a strategy to being ineffective. I've been thinking of trying to approach with power shields, but I still get shield pressured to death from shines and dairs. Wave dashing into dtilt was also something I've been thinking of, but crouching keeps me rather still, not to mention that the jumping portion of wave dashing can still get punished by a fast enough Falco.

So what would be the best method of approaching a Falco pressuring me with lasers?
Play a couple games where you try to stay right within fsmash tipper range of Falco the entire game (if he can hit you with a random fsmash, you're too close). This is the range Falco players' brains go into red alert to say "don't laser or you will get destroyed!" Once you are within this range, you can either:
- punish lasers (shield -> aerial OoS is an easy go to option to get you started)
- smack them as they do something other than laser (like zone moves)
- chase them as they run away to laser (Marth's significantly faster so you can usually just run into shield, shield the laser, and shield grab them)
- DD/WD backwards to pivot grab all those awful approaches Falcos love to do after lasers

When you can't quite tell which one of those he's doing, dtilt (usually followed by a dash away) and fadeaway AC nairs are good defaults. If he jumps, you have to decide if you want to DD grab him as he comes down with an aerial or laser, or intercept him coming down with a uair/utilt. Don't jump upwards towards him flailing your sword because as soon as he sees you in lag, he'll abuse his super fast fall speed to put his foot in your face or, if you're lucky, he'll simply end up underneath you (which is also really bad).
 

Game Freak201

Smash Rookie
Joined
Apr 16, 2009
Messages
18
Play a couple games where you try to stay right within fsmash tipper range of Falco the entire game (if he can hit you with a random fsmash, you're too close). This is the range Falco players' brains go into red alert to say "don't laser or you will get destroyed!" Once you are within this range, you can either:
- punish lasers (shield -> aerial OoS is an easy go to option to get you started)
- smack them as they do something other than laser (like zone moves)
- chase them as they run away to laser (Marth's significantly faster so you can usually just run into shield, shield the laser, and shield grab them)
- DD/WD backwards to pivot grab all those awful approaches Falcos love to do after lasers

When you can't quite tell which one of those he's doing, dtilt (usually followed by a dash away) and fadeaway AC nairs are good defaults. If he jumps, you have to decide if you want to DD grab him as he comes down with an aerial or laser, or intercept him coming down with a uair/utilt. Don't jump upwards towards him flailing your sword because as soon as he sees you in lag, he'll abuse his super fast fall speed to put his foot in your face or, if you're lucky, he'll simply end up underneath you (which is also really bad).
So I can pretty much prevent Falco from pressuring me with lasers as long as I keep myself in tippered fsmash range? I figured that approaching with aerials would be bad since all my competent opponents keep crouch canceling fair approaches, not to mention that being above an opponent as Marth is just a bad idea in general.

So in order to get to that range which puts Falco on edge while he's lasering, would just tanking the lasers, power shielding out of dashes/wave dashes, dashing and crouch canceling, or a combination of all three be suggested?

As for your suggestions concerning what to do to Falco once he's pressured, that would really help me. I've been mostly doing grabs for my OoS options and should attempt to add aerials to the mix as well. Speaking of zone moves, what would those be besides fair, nair, and dtilt?
 

swanized

Smash Cadet
Joined
Dec 4, 2012
Messages
60
I guess I have a couple fairly straightforward questions for whoever wants to answer or discuss...

1) When you are in dash dance range and want a Dtilt, do you pivot or wavedash in place to get the spacing you want?

2) I seem to have a hard time keeping control, especially over fast-fallers, when the opponent is on top platform. I usually attempt to keep myself grounded and cover him coming down on reaction with a Utilt or Ftilt but I often find it very hard not to get baited into whiffing. Is there a better way to deal with this or is it something I need to learn how to read better?

3) Last one, but I was doing some "lab work" and from what I could gather, it seemed to be that the fastest way to cover my opponents techs was by shielding as close as possible and then WDOOS into grab or Dtilt. Obviously this isn't always the best option, but does anybody know if it is truly the fastest?
1) unless you are always consistent with pivot D-tilt I think Wavedash in place dtilt is perfectly sufficient

3) just do a tight dashdance around them, shielding takes a few frames and wavedashing out of it takes 15 frames and is slower than a simple dash, someone could prove me wrong though.
 

MookieRah

Kinda Sorta OK at Smash
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Umeå, Sweden
So I can pretty much prevent Falco from pressuring me with lasers as long as I keep myself in tippered fsmash range? I figured that approaching with aerials would be bad since all my competent opponents keep crouch canceling fair approaches, not to mention that being above an opponent as Marth is just a bad idea in general.
I'm not sure where you got approaching with aerials from. Bones certainly didn't say anything of the sort. The only aerial he mentioned was fade away nairs, and that is not an approach, more of a way to control space.
So in order to get to that range which puts Falco on edge while he's lasering, would just tanking the lasers, power shielding out of dashes/wave dashes, dashing and crouch canceling, or a combination of all three be suggested?
Whatever you can manage I would think. Dash away PS is fairly easy to do, so you can work on doing that. If you tank a laser, try to get a feel for the amount of stun you receive from it. I suggest going into practice mode and taking lasers to the face and trying to act out of it asap so you get used to the timing. If they stupidly jump towards you with a laser you can simply shield grab them.
As for your suggestions concerning what to do to Falco once he's pressured, that would really help me. I've been mostly doing grabs for my OoS options and should attempt to add aerials to the mix as well. Speaking of zone moves, what would those be besides fair, nair, and dtilt?
Fair and Nair should not be used for zoning if you are in neutral. In fact, you should probably try avoiding jumping as much as possible in neutral. I know you specifically said zoning, but I just want to make sure you understand the importance of not relying on aerials when you don't need to. Marth is best in the air when his opponent is already in the air. Marth isn't so hot in the air if his opponent is grounded.

Also, it will take some time to learn how to react to the situations that Bones has outlined, but try to stick to it and learn it even if you feel that it is not helping. You'll be learning another very important lesson in the process, which is being patient and sticking to a strategy.
 

Game Freak201

Smash Rookie
Joined
Apr 16, 2009
Messages
18
I'm not sure where you got approaching with aerials from. Bones certainly didn't say anything of the sort. The only aerial he mentioned was fade away nairs, and that is not an approach, more of a way to control space.
When Bones stated "Don't jump upwards towards him flailing your sword", how else was I supposed understand this as other than not to approach with aerials? I was simply stating that I don't really approach my foes with aerials all that much.

Whatever you can manage I would think. Dash away PS is fairly easy to do, so you can work on doing that. If you tank a laser, try to get a feel for the amount of stun you receive from it. I suggest going into practice mode and taking lasers to the face and trying to act out of it asap so you get used to the timing. If they stupidly jump towards you with a laser you can simply shield grab them.
Okay, I'll go on and try those out over in practice when I have the time.

Fair and Nair should not be used for zoning if you are in neutral. In fact, you should probably try avoiding jumping as much as possible in neutral. I know you specifically said zoning, but I just want to make sure you understand the importance of not relying on aerials when you don't need to. Marth is best in the air when his opponent is already in the air. Marth isn't so hot in the air if his opponent is grounded.
It's okay, MookieRah. Some things just have to be reiterated even if they're already understood.

Also, it will take some time to learn how to react to the situations that Bones has outlined, but try to stick to it and learn it even if you feel that it is not helping. You'll be learning another very important lesson in the process, which is being patient and sticking to a strategy.
I'll probably be facing some Falcos this coming Monday, Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday. Hopefully, putting all these advice into practice will help my MU with Falco. Thanks for all the help given so far.
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
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So in order to get to that range which puts Falco on edge while he's lasering, would just tanking the lasers, power shielding out of dashes/wave dashes, dashing and crouch canceling, or a combination of all three be suggested?

As for your suggestions concerning what to do to Falco once he's pressured, that would really help me. I've been mostly doing grabs for my OoS options and should attempt to add aerials to the mix as well. Speaking of zone moves, what would those be besides fair, nair, and dtilt?
If you're not far away, simply taking the lasers is not bad. If you think they will approach, shielding and WDing back a little is solid. Personally, I use a good amount of platform wavelanding when they aren't right next to me. As long as they can't react to you jumping onto the platform and run under you, I think it's a great choice. Coming down from a waveland with a fair is super deadly if you timed it so they can't get under you, and if you can shai drop you have even more options because you can get on plats and finetune your spacing before quickly dropping through. Exactly which method you use is dependent on what the Falco is trying to accomplish. If he's just trying to build damage (which is a horrible strategy), you can hit him with gimmicky stuff like dash attacking under the lasers or dashing/WDing towards him, taking a laser, and dtilting/fsmashing him. Most Falcos will just approach immediately after lasering which is also bad. This is where shield -> fadeaway fair/nair come in handy as well as WD back OoS and DD grabbing him. If he isn't approaching super obviously, you will have to sort of combine the two. You don't want to give up a ton of space assuming he will approach, but you also don't want him to keep lasering you without feeling threatened by dtilt.

What to do once you're in Falco's space is too big of a topic to generalize. It is drastically different depending on the situation, so just watch videos and use common sense. Ftilt can also be a good zoning tool, but the 3 you mentioned are definitely the core ones. I also occasionally bair if I want to dash away to keep them honest about trying to SHFFL onto my back (it autocancels as long as you don't FF, so there's no way they can hit you with anything but a laser if you do it).
 
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I've been going up against a Falco main frequently as of late and laser camping has been the death of me so far. Typically, I weave in and out of my opponents' attacks through dash dancing until they make a mistake which I would then follow up with a grab. Falco's low lasers; however, hamper such a strategy to being ineffective. I've been thinking of trying to approach with power shields, but I still get shield pressured to death from shines and dairs. Wave dashing into dtilt was also something I've been thinking of, but crouching keeps me rather still, not to mention that the jumping portion of wave dashing can still get punished by a fast enough Falco.

So what would be the best method of approaching a Falco pressuring me with lasers?
I just want to point out that this first part should not be your sole intention. Referencing the method of dash dancing solely. You lose ground if this is all you do in virtually every situation. At the very least, I mean you can potentially lose ground if you are not careful to add in pushes. If all you are doing is being passive through dash dancing (waiting for your opponent to mess up), then you will find yourself stuck at the ledge without any room to continue with this strategy. Effectively you can lose if you get pushed back by being too passive and eventually lose to something like a SH nair directly at you near the ledge from say a Fox or Falcon. Although, that's different than from lasers.

Anyway, for lasers there are lots of things to you can do. I'll just mention some stuff regarding some reasoning for using platforms if available.

-If the both of you are on opposite sides of the stage I believe platform play is perfectly legitimate method to close the distance. The reason being is that low platforms you can drop off and attack with an aerial should they get too close to laser (you physically see them attempt to short hop I mean) to punish the short hop. If in the attempt Falco comes directly at you, Falco must FH to reach lower platforms. In this case you can easily avoid by shield/drop through to avoid Falco. At which time Falco is above the stage in a full hop and you are on the ground with the advantage. Great. Otherwise, if Falco get directly underneath you because you failed to stop him from dashing underneath your platform you can still retreat in a variety of ways to at the very least reset your situation. If falco attempts at FH lasers this too grants you easy access to get off platforms and get directly close/underneath Falco. However, this method really only works if your opposing Falco will try to take the bait to break off from lasering or you can get a stock/percentage advantage. Because if Falco refuses to get anywhere near your lower platform you can theoretically stay there the entire match winning by stock/percentage advantage.
Sec
 

xCardiac

Smash Apprentice
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Peabody, Massachusetts
I can't seem to get my pivots down.

After the initial dash, should I input the amount of finesse and force as an up-air, without tap jumping, in the opposite direction or can I smash the control stick in the opposite direction completely?

I just don't know how I should go about practicing pivot forward smashes other than aggresively against CPUs and it's not working well.

Thanks!
 

Xyzz

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xCardiac

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Niko45

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It's honestly so awesome to watch PP play Marth in less commonly seen matchups like samus, sheik, peach etc where most people bust out their spacie or w/e to deal with it better. Such a sick Marth dude and congrats on Apex!
 

Dr Peepee

Thanks for Everything <3
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I feel like Marth could fare similarly if not better(or easier) than Falco in many of those matchups. I have a lot of faith in this character and it's nice to see that that showed, thanks! =)
 

MookieRah

Kinda Sorta OK at Smash
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I can't seem to get my pivots down.
I personally have been working on pivots for several months now, off and on, and my consistency with it is still fairly poor. I can and have used it effectively in matches, but it's not something that I rely on and if I go for it it's mostly so that I would be comfortable with using it by the time I am much better at it.

This is a tech that requires a very different type of fine-motor skill than the rest of smash related tech (unless you are a Samus main or something). It's the only thing that I can think of that requires near frame-perfect coordination of both hands making a simultaneous movement. In contrast, I can perform the technique quite easily with the A button, despite it's inputs looking much harder on paper. It is sub-optimal though, because it is near impossible (at least from what I've done) to performed uncharged pivot smashes with just the A button.

So yeah, my point with this post is that it's ok if it takes you a long time to master it. I'd say that's par for the norm.
 

dRevan64

Smash Journeyman
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If my analog stick is even SLIGHTLY off...or if my left hand feels kinda cold...or if I didn't eat a good breakfast or get a good night's sleep...pivoting consistently becomes a problem.
This game is too hard as is to rely on something that messy for me at least. I've been able to learn a HELL of a lot of tech skill, and pivoting is not outside of that, but the reality is that some **** is finicky to the point of ridiculousness. If I'm feeling it that day, sure, I'll pivot fsmash a jigglypuff off a throw for a conversion or something but more likely I'll just keep whacking her up to 6,000,000% and then hit a random move. Or I'll switch to fox.
 

Nicholas1024

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 14, 2009
Messages
1,075
Two (semi-related) questions here.

1. What should Marth generally do after a grab against Falcon? The standard followups I use against spacies seem to not quite work against him, and it really feels awkward.

2. What are some good tech-chases to go for after F-throw/D-throw? (Beyond the standard F-smash or regrab.) For that matter, is there ever a reason to B-throw instead of D-throw?
 

MookieRah

Kinda Sorta OK at Smash
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1. What should Marth generally do after a grab against Falcon? The standard followups I use against spacies seem to not quite work against him, and it really feels awkward.
General consensus from this thread from about a year ago to semi-recent was that you down throw > tech chase CF till about 30%. Keep in mind you should turn around immediately after the downthrow, as you can capitalise on a no tech real easy with a dtilt.

After 30% you uthrow > utilt. From there it's whatever works I suppose.

2. What are some good tech-chases to go for after F-throw/D-throw? (Beyond the standard F-smash or regrab.) For that matter, is there ever a reason to B-throw instead of D-throw?
Bthrow can be used to cause someone to land on a platform at odd percents. Other than that I don't think it is very useful.
 
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General consensus from this thread from about a year ago to semi-recent was that you down throw > tech chase CF till about 30%. Keep in mind you should turn around immediately after the downthrow, as you can capitalise on a no tech real easy with a dtilt.

After 30% you uthrow > utilt. From there it's whatever works I suppose.

Bthrow can be used to cause someone to land on a platform at odd percents. Other than that I don't think it is very useful.
Do you really want to Dtilt someone if they are in the middle of the stage? You dthrow -> no tech -> dtilt, and you are right back to a neutral setting. I believe generally you want to maintain your advantage for as long as possible. If you Dthrow/Fthrow for regrab attempts until you can guarantee that Uthrow -> something works without having to guess if Falcon will jump or not. Or, just fthrow/dthrow to get Falcon underneath a platform for you to regrab underneath. From there you can play uthrow -> tech chase on platform antics.

I think with Falcon and a few other characters get a similar set-up if you Bthrow someone towards the ledge. If they DI in, then even at higher percents you are guaranteed(?) a set-up for Fsmash/Dair tippers. Otherwise, should one DI super far away, then you get normal edgeguard. Anything else in between is sort of like if someone DI'd Uthrow offstage.
If my analog stick is even SLIGHTLY off...or if my left hand feels kinda cold...or if I didn't eat a good breakfast or get a good night's sleep...pivoting consistently becomes a problem.
This game is too hard as is to rely on something that messy for me at least. I've been able to learn a HELL of a lot of tech skill, and pivoting is not outside of that, but the reality is that some **** is finicky to the point of ridiculousness. If I'm feeling it that day, sure, I'll pivot fsmash a jigglypuff off a throw for a conversion or something but more likely I'll just keep whacking her up to 6,000,000% and then hit a random move. Or I'll switch to fox.
Hi John! :p
Two (semi-related) questions here.

1. What should Marth generally do after a grab against Falcon? The standard followups I use against spacies seem to not quite work against him, and it really feels awkward.

2. What are some good tech-chases to go for after F-throw/D-throw? (Beyond the standard F-smash or regrab.) For that matter, is there ever a reason to B-throw instead of D-throw?
1) I commented on this in MookieRah's quote
2) Fsmash is a poor option unless you can get a tipper out of it to put them offstage and have enough time to cover options for his recovery. For example, if you fthrow -> fsmash (falcon missed tech) with your back to the ledge and falcon at 10%, then he is not going very far. Regrabs from tech chasing is the best strategy when on say Final Destination since Falcon has to play your game. The only reason he gets out is because of player error on your part. Ideally, you could tech chase him to death, but its error prone after a long time and uthrow -> aerials on falcon is faster and easier to time (imo). So, really there is not much else to use other than what Rook said about fthrow/dthrow for chases until like 30+ percent and go for Uthrow after that.

As for Bthrow, there is not much reason to use it. You get less frame advantage off bthrow compared to dthrow at lower percents. I think it might be worth considering when your back is to the ledge and you are near it.

I feel like Marth could fare similarly if not better(or easier) than Falco in many of those matchups. I have a lot of faith in this character and it's nice to see that that showed, thanks! =)
I am sort of curious how you see things from your point of view. I'll just give an example of what I mean to explain that comment.

To me, the reason I keep losing is because I feel I keep making poor decisions or execution mistakes. For example, I'll CG fox/falco and drop the CG half way through or mess up my timing on an Uair. Likewise, I might Fsmash tipper at 40% fox/falco towards the inside of the stage rather than go for a continued Uair set-up into say a tipper ffmash to put them offstage (given appropriate bad DI) for the smart decision. Perhaps I have been incredibly passive in my attempt to push my opponent into a bad position, so instead I get pushed into a spot I cannot reasonably get out of without my opponent making a mistake. In short, I keep trying to improve to have a sort of flawless play. Sort of maximize everything I can guarantee in the game to the best of my ability.

However, as a frequent top 8 player what is your driving principle for improvement? Or to be worded differently--What things do you value that is required to improve as a player or be able to contend with other players of your caliber? As far as I can tell from playing Tennis and playing Smash, the person who makes the most least mistakes on their end is the biggest component to success. However, when you start to reach a pinnacle of other players I was wondering if there was anything else important that I had not considered.
 
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MookieRah

Kinda Sorta OK at Smash
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Do you really want to Dtilt someone if they are in the middle of the stage? You dthrow -> no tech -> dtilt, and you are right back to a neutral setting. I believe generally you want to maintain your advantage for as long as possible. If you Dthrow/Fthrow for regrab attempts until you can guarantee that Uthrow -> something works without having to guess if Falcon will jump or not. Or, just fthrow/dthrow to get Falcon underneath a platform for you to regrab underneath. From there you can play uthrow -> tech chase on platform antics.
I don't see dtilting a missed tech as giving up advantage really, as that often leads to another grab follow up. At least as often as I would be able to continue a tech chase, but it is hard to say as there is rarely a no-tech situation and memories and my feelings on the efficacy of this are flawed at best. Perhaps my way is sub-optimal, but I do play against quite a good Falcon these days and this seems to work for me. Perhaps this is something to ask Kadano about?

In regards to uthrow > utilt there isn't really a guaranteed follow up from that at the earliest percents. Any follow up after that depends greatly on the Falcon's DI and what part of your utilt hits him. Usually you can get *something* as it puts Falcon in a really bad position and you can generally leverage something out of it, but I don't want to give the impression that it's better than it is. It, like tech chasing, requires some quick reaction to make something out of it.
 
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