Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Divinokage]

No, I'm saying its OK to do at all levels, and that shield pressure ought to be treated as a mixup, not as something you should just shrug off cause 1 out of a million options soft-counters it (its not even like they can punish after the WD back: they reset and lose stage positioning).

Every type of shield pressure has a hole. Its tilted in favor of the aggressor, but the defensive player has escape routes. Or else Melee would be faceroll garbage.

But there's no reason for you to be that close in the first place, you are already doing risky play by doing an option that isn't that good. You said that scrubs will attack OOS but then good players will probably read your dash back instead if you already know that this option on shield isnt super. What can you really do after nair on shield? Not much.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Ball hard and just grab them straight up.

Or Fsmaaash

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Not sure I agree with this. If Sheik or Fox (or essentially any character that has any relevant speed or is Falco) wavedashes back and you do that nair, you're going to get punished. Sheik's dash attack (or boost grab) will eat that up for sure, and Fox can definitely get a grab off of it (timing will be a little tight but it's easily feasible to punish consistently at mid-high level play). Falco will get free room to set up with lasers once you've done the retreating nair. Hell Peach might even be able to punish with dash attack, but she's such a bad character that I wouldn't be surprised if she couldn't LOL.

And WD back isn't uncommon, especially for Sheik and Peach. Anyways these are just my thoughts on the nair. I posted earlier that it could be used on a cornered opponent (no WD back room) but in center stage it seems to be... not that good. Dunno.

You are grossly underestimating how safe nair is. Marth is -2 on AC Nair. So if your opponent commits to a WD back, they're vulnerable for ~13 frames (character dependent) AKA you have tempo, not them.

Now, you can't react/punish the WD back (you could hard read it with a grab if you want) but they sure as hell shouldn't get something like a 19+ frame startup SH laser out in time lol.

Think of it like if someone WD backed on your falling fair.

 

[MT_]

You are grossly underestimating how safe nair is. Marth is -2 on AC Nair. So if your opponent commits to a WD back, they're vulnerable for ~13 frames (character dependent) AKA you have tempo, not them.

Now, you can't react/punish the WD back (you could hard read it with a grab if you want) but they sure as hell shouldn't get something like a ~21 frame startup SH laser out in time lol.

Think of it like if someone WD backed on your falling fair.

I'm not sure we're thinking about the same situation.

First off, AC nair doesn't have -2 from what I understand (I'm actually not sure what situation you're talking about here. You mean AC nair on shield against shieldgrab?) Either way, keep in mind that the latest possible frame to hit with AC nair is frame 21 (this is taken from the Marth Hitboxes & Frame Data thread). Nair autocancels starting on frame 25, meaning you have to remain airborne for 4 more frames if you want to get the AC nair. Then you add in 4 frames of regular landing lag. The total vulnerability of (frame perfect) AC nair is 8 frames, not 4. Though I'm not sure if you used 8 frames or 4 frames to calculate the -2.

Addressing the situation I was imagining: I was thinking that the enemy would shield one nair (which was done retreating), then immediately wavedash back afterwards. If you wanted to do another shield stop retreating nair, you wouldn't be able to do it all the way up close to the opponent after they have wavedashed back. Let's say for simplicity's sake that you were unable to react to the wavedash back and did the same shield stop retreating nair at the spacing for where they were before WD back (this was the situation that I was describing earlier; not sure if it's the same one you were thinking). Everything I mentioned in the previous post with regard to Marth doing a retreating nair is in effect. Someone WDing back after shielding my falling fair would definitely be able to punish me if I were to do another falling fair anywhere that wasn't perfectly adjusting to the spacing of their wavedash (unless they are cornered).


EDIT: Copying nair data for reference:

N-air

Total: 49
Hit: 6-7, 15-21
Auto cancel: <5 25>
Landlag: 15
Lcanceled: 7

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

I'm not sure we're thinking about the same situation.

First off, AC nair doesn't have -2 from what I understand (I'm actually not sure what situation you're talking about here. You mean AC nair on shield against shieldgrab?) Either way, keep in mind that the latest possible frame to hit with AC nair is frame 21 (this is taken from the Marth Hitboxes & Frame Data thread). Nair autocancels starting on frame 25, meaning you have to remain airborne for 4 more frames if you want to get the AC nair. Then you add in 4 frames of regular landing lag. The total vulnerability of (frame perfect) AC nair is 8 frames, not 4. Though I'm not sure if you used 8 frames or 4 frames to calculate the -2.

Shield stun, my man. Shield stun.

For reference:

Low nair (L-cancelled): -1
AC nair: -2
Late uair: +0
Late fair: +0

The +/- are meant to designate the advantage/disadvantage of the attacking player. So the opponent only has 2 free frames after their shield is stunned from Marth's AC nair until his landing lag ends.

Addressing the situation I was imagining: I was thinking that the enemy would shield one nair (which was done retreating), then immediately wavedash back afterwards. If you wanted to do another shield stop retreating nair, you wouldn't be able to do it all the way up close to the opponent after they have wavedashed back. Let's say for simplicity's sake that you were unable to react to the wavedash back and did the same shield stop retreating nair at the spacing for where they were before WD back (this was the situation that I was describing earlier; not sure if it's the same one you were thinking). Everything I mentioned in the previous post with regard to Marth doing a retreating nair is in effect. Someone WDing back after shielding my falling fair would definitely be able to punish me if I were to do another falling fair anywhere that wasn't perfectly adjusting to the spacing of their wavedash (unless they are cornered)

I was talking about a single retreating nair.

I agree that you'll lose, and lose quickly, if all you do is retreating nair all game. But 1, maaaybe 2, during a shield pressure string? That's good Melee baby. Nair is awesome.

 

[Construct]

I thought we found out that AC nair wasn't frame advantage on shield? Because you have to hit too early on the shield if you want to auto-cancel it to gain any advantage and then you'd lose the advantage and then some during fall time
the frame advantage stuff in the magus (strong bad? I forget who made the calculator, i think it was SB) assumes last possible frame for when the move hits making the AC nair numbers incorrect

edit: although nairing and floating back is really safe and I probably just misconstrued what you were saying

 

[Xyzz]

He isn't suggesting that AC nair had any advantage. The opponent has two frames of being out of stun, before your landing lag ends. But he can't really do much from it, since you are out of range of most fast OOS responses like grab.

It looks fairly interesting (:

 

[Deleted member]

No, I'm saying its OK to do at all levels, and that shield pressure ought to be treated as a mixup, not as something you should just shrug off cause 1 out of a million options soft-counters it (its not even like they can punish after the WD back: they reset and lose stage positioning).

Every type of shield pressure has a hole. Its tilted in favor of the aggressor, but the defensive player has escape routes. Or else Melee would be faceroll garbage.

actually i agree with kage on this one. relying on the opponent to be bad works at some levels but magical christmas land runs out by about round 4 in a tournament.

marth's "pressure" does not involve nair. it barely involves the sword at all tbh. it has nothing to do with the frame data and everything to do with it just being a questionable play in the first place.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

actually i agree with kage on this one. relying on the opponent to be bad works at some levels but magical christmas land runs out by about round 4 in a tournament.

marth's "pressure" does not involve nair. it barely involves the sword at all tbh. it has nothing to do with the frame data and everything to do with it just being a questionable play in the first place.

I mean

It works against like everybody I play, including some of the best in the world, so whatever you say duuude.

But we can go around in circles talkin bout dashdance blah blah dtilt blah blah position blah blah reaction some more if you want to. That way, no one will learn the sword, and we'll all just look like Kevin's Marth. Zip-a-dee doo dah

Zip-a-dee yay

My oh my what a wonderful day

 

[Xyzz]

and we'll all just look like Kevin's Marth

You're saying this like it was a bad thing :D

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Kevin's Marth is gdlk

Thats not my point tho lol

 

[Xyzz]

I know, I know

Kevin's Marth is my favorite Marth, but having everybody play the same would be rather stale indeed (:

 

[Dr Peepee]

But

I said it has its uses LOL

or are we talking about other kevin

curse my white name

anyone got a good play for punishing Fox when you grab him and he's under a side platform(lower percent)? If he gets Uthrown he can DI down tech your Utilt/Uair but if you keep doing Fthrow/Dthrow he can edgecancel. I finally decided to Fthrow Nair if the percent was low enough and had decent success. Thoughts?

 

[MT_]

Right, so retreating nair on shield is safe as long as you are hitting their shield. This I can agree with (you can do retreating versions of just about any aerial on someone's shield and be safe). Do you gain anything for it? Maybe. If you are in a position where you want to hit their shield as a form of pressure, I would imagine a spaced dtilt is better than a retreating nair in every single way except for nair doing more shield damage, at least on paper.

The nair seems more useful if you're caught in a position too close for comfort and you want a safe way to retreat to a better spacing (both characters running up and shielding comes to mind). Running up to someone who is already in shield and then doing a retreating nair seems wasteful of your options and already established advantageous spacing.

 

[Deathconsciousness]

PeePee, do you like Big Black? They're my favorite band. I think you'd like them. :3

 

[AppleAppleAZ]

But we can go around in circles talkin bout dashdance blah blah dtilt blah blah position blah blah reaction some more if you want to. That way, no one will learn the sword, and we'll all just look like Kevin's Marth.

I support this 100%.

The nair seems more useful if you're caught in a position too close for comfort and you want a safe way to retreat to a better spacing (both characters running up and shielding comes to mind). Running up to someone who is already in shield and then doing a retreating nair seems wasteful of your options and already established advantageous spacing.

Yes

 

[Xyzz]

But

I said it has its uses LOL

or are we talking about other kevin

curse my white name

No matter what you say, you are the premier example of a player who would rather just maneuver around, till you're really comfortable with going in, instead of taking any chances. So the "dashdance dashdance dashdance dtilt dashdance dashdance" - playstyle is kinda tied to you :D

 

[ArcNatural]

But

I said it has its uses LOL

or are we talking about other kevin

curse my white name

anyone got a good play for punishing Fox when you grab him and he's under a side platform(lower percent)? If he gets Uthrown he can DI down tech your Utilt/Uair but if you keep doing Fthrow/Dthrow he can edgecancel. I finally decided to Fthrow Nair if the percent was low enough and had decent success. Thoughts?

If they don't DI at certain low percents you can upthrow rising AC nair to Fsmash, the nair will often hit before they can tech and in the right spots it will make them edgecancel/misstech/getpushedoff and you can connect with Fsmash off the side. If they are ready and jump off the edge cancel it won't work, but Fsmash beats pretty much anything else.

Everything else I know is pretty standard, dthrow/fthrow tech chase, throw onto platform jump up waveland space to regrab and avoid shine. Even the uptilt/upair knockdown can work since tipper upairs usually force knockdowns and you can uptilt immediately after before they can do anything out of the missed tech.

How would Fthrow Nair at low percents work? Are you assuming they are going for the edgecancel and you hit them before they can make it off? Cause I would think if nair works like that then rising fair would be better in almost every way at low percents (easier to link into combo strings).

 

[Dr Peepee]

PeePee, do you like Big Black? They're my favorite band. I think you'd like them. :3

bit hardcore for my taste but I did enjoy it not gonna lie lolll

If they don't DI at certain low percents you can upthrow rising AC nair to Fsmash, the nair will often hit before they can tech and in the right spots it will make them edgecancel/misstech/getpushedoff and you can connect with Fsmash off the side. If they are ready and jump off the edge cancel it won't work, but Fsmash beats pretty much anything else.

Everything else I know is pretty standard, dthrow/fthrow tech chase, throw onto platform jump up waveland space to regrab and avoid shine. Even the uptilt/upair knockdown can work since tipper upairs usually force knockdowns and you can uptilt immediately after before they can do anything out of the missed tech.

How would Fthrow Nair at low percents work? Are you assuming they are going for the edgecancel and you hit them before they can make it off? Cause I would think if nair works like that then rising fair would be better in almost every way at low percents (easier to link into combo strings).

How low we talkin?

Can that regrab work on the platform? Feels too slow.

Fthrow gets them if they are below 10% so they don't fall over and then I can beat shield/dodge/dash back then in with it plus it has the advantage of not being Uthrow so they be surprised by it. Sometimes it pushes people offstage so that's great and often off-balances other times.

If they are at higher percent then 10% then the Nair can catch their non-tech or tech in place and I could still react to tech away.

 

[ArcNatural]

It start's pretty low, but not below 10% I'd have to check it but it's somewhere in the 12%-20% range.

I can see nair probably being better than rising fair if they aren't falling over as being slightly better against CC than a rising fair but not by much. I would think, while boring just fthrow regrabbing or conditioning the spotdodge/roll after fthrow would be just as effective there.

 

[Divinokage]

I mean

It works against like everybody I play, including some of the best in the world, so whatever you say duuude.

But we can go around in circles talkin bout dashdance blah blah dtilt blah blah position blah blah reaction some more if you want to. That way, no one will learn the sword, and we'll all just look like Kevin's Marth. Zip-a-dee doo dah

Zip-a-dee yay

My oh my what a wonderful day

Are we talking about the same situation, a blocked Nair? Or did you hit them with it? Because if I do block a nair then Marth is pretty much forced to take an action after that.. there's not many options that come out so the options that come out after that is pretty predictable. Basically, either grab/fair or dash away.. ya sure you CAN catch people like that but you'd be missing out on way better stuff you can do. Why would you put yourself in that kind of position?

 

[Dr Peepee]

It start's pretty low, but not below 10% I'd have to check it but it's somewhere in the 12%-20% range.

I can see nair probably being better than rising fair if they aren't falling over as being slightly better against CC than a rising fair but not by much. I would think, while boring just fthrow regrabbing or conditioning the spotdodge/roll after fthrow would be just as effective there.

I can't seem to cover spotdodge/roll while still covering dash away but Nair lets me cover more options and since it's by the edge I can go into grab if they get scared or if they DI down then I can get Ftilt/Fsmash/SHFF Fair off of it and get a lot of reward. It's a bit janky but it works really well for me. Nothing is an all the time thing of course but I liked it.

 

[Deleted member]

But we can go around in circles talkin bout dashdance blah blah dtilt blah blah position blah blah reaction some more if you want to. That way, no one will learn the sword, and we'll all just look like Kevin's Marth. Zip-a-dee doo dah

Oh, well in that case yeah let's all nair on a non-moving fox's shield in the middle of FD, he'll stand there and block it in a MU based around hard DD abuse.

 

[CyberZixx]

I don`t see myself ever doing that. In center stage Nair is too much of a commitment. I could use it near the edge when I got the opponent cornered as pointed out by MT but i`d still rather down tilt, as it is harder to get around.

Not like Marth is a shield pressure character anyway, he just wants to poke it to force a reaction.

 

[Kadano]

Oh, well in that case yeah let's all nair on a non-moving fox's shield in the middle of FD, he'll stand there and block it in a MU based around hard DD abuse.

In case you’re referring to my video: that was only to illustrate the spacing and timing in relation to the opponent in general. The stage and positions I chose are arbitrary; I don’t advocate using it out of neutral like that either. But near the edge, the only hard counter (wd back → dash attack) isn’t available as Fox would slide off the stage.

 

[Jim Morrison]

But

I said it has its uses LOL

or are we talking about other kevin

curse my white name

anyone got a good play for punishing Fox when you grab him and he's under a side platform(lower percent)? If he gets Uthrown he can DI down tech your Utilt/Uair but if you keep doing Fthrow/Dthrow he can edgecancel. I finally decided to Fthrow Nair if the percent was low enough and had decent success. Thoughts?

Look at Leffen vs PewPewU at around 6:15, he does U-throw into SH N-air and coves his tech and throws him off the platform. If it was towards the other side, he'd be off-stage (or maybe grab edge I can't tell)

 

[Deleted member]

In case you’re referring to my video: that was only to illustrate the spacing and timing in relation to the opponent in general. The stage and positions I chose are arbitrary; I don’t advocate using it out of neutral like that either. But near the edge, the only hard counter (wd back → dash attack) isn’t available as Fox would slide off the stage.

sure, i was just being a condescending ass.

but kage and MT have made the point quite clear imo, and it's reflective of marth's greater game on the whole. when you choose a sub-optimal method of punishment with marth, it's not like falco where gay bird feet do basically the same thing and you choose the move by how you want the opponent to deal with it. more often, you're either doing something very threatening or it's not threatening at all, and the difference in output is much more extreme. regardless of where you do the nair like your video has it, you're still in neutral. by choosing a risky move that foregoes your positional advantage (if you wanted positional advantage you'd just wait and use your range like i keep saying), you're also making your punishment game weaker by giving the opponent the ability to deal with you when they otherwise couldn't. so let's say they block it, kage's right that you basically have to do an action immediately after and that it's fairly predictable and weak. maybe sometimes you'll catch people, maybe they'll catch you, maybe it'll just fizzle out and you''ll change positions and reset back to the middle of the stage. that's just not good enough when a better, more guaranteed option readily exists. **** it, let's say you hit with the nair and force a tech chase or an edge guard. now we're back to my game of waiting and capitalizing off of having a superior position and waiting or using force to trap and kill the opponent, but you could have simply skipped the risk in your conversion in favor for something else to get the same end goal.

i mean, most of us already intuitively understand this idea:

kadano's gif is still a strategically bad choice because fox has no incentive to ever block nair to begin with. free movement is what makes nair such a risky move from neutral.

But there's no reason for you to be that close in the first place, you are already doing risky play by doing an option that isn't that good. You said that scrubs will attack OOS but then good players will probably read your dash back instead if you already know that this option on shield isnt super. What can you really do after nair on shield? Not much.

Right, so retreating nair on shield is safe as long as you are hitting their shield. This I can agree with (you can do retreating versions of just about any aerial on someone's shield and be safe). Do you gain anything for it? Maybe. If you are in a position where you want to hit their shield as a form of pressure, I would imagine a spaced dtilt is better than a retreating nair in every single way except for nair doing more shield damage, at least on paper.

The nair seems more useful if you're caught in a position too close for comfort and you want a safe way to retreat to a better spacing (both characters running up and shielding comes to mind). Running up to someone who is already in shield and then doing a retreating nair seems wasteful of your options and already established advantageous spacing.

Are we talking about the same situation, a blocked Nair? Or did you hit them with it? Because if I do block a nair then Marth is pretty much forced to take an action after that.. there's not many options that come out so the options that come out after that is pretty predictable. Basically, either grab/fair or dash away.. ya sure you CAN catch people like that but you'd be missing out on way better stuff you can do. Why would you put yourself in that kind of position?

I don`t see myself ever doing that. In center stage Nair is too much of a commitment. I could use it near the edge when I got the opponent cornered as pointed out by MT but i`d still rather down tilt, as it is harder to get around.

So we're all on the same page right? I'm sorry that marth is so linear and rarely has mix-ups, but maybe it'd be better if we all stopped playing every character like falco for once.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Umbreon, could you explain what it is to "play like Falco" in the current meta? You keep bringing it up here in this thread. I'm not being facetious; I'm genuinely curious as to what you mean by that.

Thanks in advance.

Smooth Criminal

 

[TKD+ITA+Mar=]

Kadano, I was wondering how the hitboxes on fair work. I feel like there are like 4-5 different hitboxes, but I am having trouble pinpointing exactly where they are and how they work. I found your utilt diagram immensely helpful and I was wondering if you had anything of the sort for fair? Thank you based frame-data god.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Here are a few gifs from GF set 2 PP v Armada. I was lazy and only went through the first 2 matches, but there is plenty of material there.

Warning: BIG gifs

Spoiler

I'll let you guys draw your own conclusions, but I'll probably beat you all over the head with it when you still don't understand lol

 

[Kadano]

Umbreon, could you explain what it is to "play like Falco" in the current meta? You keep bringing it up here in this thread. I'm not being facetious; I'm genuinely curious as to what you mean by that.

I think I remember him explaining that Falco (and Fox) can jump in with fair or dair and are very safe as long as they either hit directly or the opponent’s shield. Because shffl nair became so commonly used, other characters (like Marth) also incorporated this, but it’s not nearly as safe as with spacies and almost always puts Marth in a bad position.

Kadano, I was wondering how the hitboxes on fair work. I feel like there are like 4-5 different hitboxes, but I am having trouble pinpointing exactly where they are and how they work. I found your utilt diagram immensely helpful and I was wondering if you had anything of the sort for fair? Thank you based frame-data god.

I’ve been thinking about making a diagram for fair for quite some time now, so you requesting this will be enough for me to overcome my laziness (I don’t feel like creating these without knowing for sure that there are people who want them.
Please check my thread, I’ll post it there soon. (Frame related questions are better asked there, by the way. This is more the macroscopical thread)

 

[Divinokage]

What do you want to point out Crimsonblur? How to roughly play Marth?

 

[Deleted member]

yeah i don't get it either tbh

 

[JOS.fm]

omg crimson you're so bad

 

[MookieRah]

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that AC nair thing has a lot of legit applications. One reason that is good enough for pretty much every competitive Marth to learn it and learn it well. That is, it would be a damn good brick wall strategy against lesser skilled opponents. People tend to forget about the human elements when it comes to performing at tournaments. People have only so much focus and will power. Think of it as a resource. When playing lesser skilled players it would help you if you had some "dialing it in" strategies, that don't require a ton of effort to perform. Brick wall strategies are the perfect example of something one can just dial in.

A brick wall strategy is a tactic or technique that one has to figure out before they can begin to engage you. It's really good against low level players because their game knowledge, or ability to think on their feet, won't be as good as higher end players, and thusly can completely shut them out if they can't find the solution.

Also, if the solution to this is to wavedash back, then congrats, you just won stage! If they try to put up some kind of counter offensive that involves a dash attack, I'm pretty sure Marth could react to that as it's the most obvious option after the wavedash. Just saying, it might not be a half bad tactic even against better players.

 

[knightpraetor]

i don't think anyone was saying that that AC nair was bad...just that there are often better options just by spacing properly and reacting....I actually think it's quite good in the upper percent ranges for getting people off stage...otherwise i wouldn't take it because it won't combo properly unless you press in a lot with the nair..which is too risky when there are easier ways for marth to get damage or combos off of his stage control.

but actually i use this a good bit vs falcon and sheik..and I think that I should be using it more vs spacies based on what i see from PewPewU. One thing I wonder is how good it really is at catching falco..may be less worth it since i think the full hop accelerates faster meaning you are less likely to get hit even if you had a pretty good rough idea of when they were going to jump

 

[Kadano]

Also, if the solution to this is to wavedash back, then congrats, you just won stage! If they try to put up some kind of counter offensive that involves a dash attack, I'm pretty sure Marth could react to that as it's the most obvious option after the wavedash. Just saying, it might not be a half bad tactic even against better players.

Marth has exactly two frames after his landing lag until dash attack would hit him if he does nothing. Fox’s dash attack comes out on frame 5, his JC grab hits you one frame later. It’s impossible to distinguish between these two in time to react so you have to guess. Dash away escapes JC grab but gets hit by dash attack, shield guards you from dash attack but obviously leaves you vulnerable to grab.

So yeah, spaced AC nair puts you in a worse position if 1. your opponent has stage behind him to retreat 2. is skilled enough to wd back with low degree (a long wavedash makes him slide away too far to hit you in time) and dash attack / grab frame-perfectly.
If one of those criteria is not given, I’m inclined to say it’s a safe option. And I’m pretty sure that goes with what Crimson Blur wanted to illustrate: even in highest level play, nair can be a good option, albeit in rare cases (cornered opponent), and not using it might make you lose some of your perceived threat.

 

[Deleted member]

nair is an excellent move provided that the player uses it correctly. i'd just like to point out that nair when the opponent can shield it or still move freely is not the right time to use it. we all seem to agree on this idea so why is it still an issue?

 

[MookieRah]

I still think using it as Crimson posted has a lot of merit. Probably not so much against spacies, but at the very least this would still be a very good tool for a brick wall. Also, just having the accuracy and spacing to pull off this maneuver consistently could really help someone's game. I didn't know how bad I was at doing this till I tried. Definitely shows that my control wasn't as good as I imagined it to be.

 

[Divinokage]

You just said something about human limitations and it's exactly why as your opponent is moving, you'll very likely fail to do a perfect Nair anyways. You'll be way more than just -2. Being frame perfect in Melee all the time is out of the question which is why yes it's good to know about it but don't expect to have perfect execution every time which goes back to Nair being a weak option.

Also why are you talking about lesser skilled opponents, Mookie? The point is to refine your play at a level where you really know your options inside and out, why would you give advice that will ultimately set a brick wall aka plateau for players that would possibly want to go beyond what they actually know right now?