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BoboKoz

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Hey PP I've been researching grounded tech chasing specifically when Fox/Falco/Falcon/Marth are stalling their mistech I know that they have 2 get up attacks (stomach and back) and i was wondering if there's any info of weather or not i can react to Each get up attack for each of these characters if thers any doc or info on this that would be greatly appreciated thank you.
 

Strong Badam

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Hey PP I've been researching grounded tech chasing specifically when Fox/Falco/Falcon/Marth are stalling their mistech I know that they have 2 get up attacks (stomach and back) and i was wondering if there's any info of weather or not i can react to Each get up attack for each of these characters if thers any doc or info on this that would be greatly appreciated thank you.
The data you're after is here: https://smashboards.com/threads/detailed-throws-techs-and-getups-frame-data.206469/#post-5896012
Getup Data for Captain Falcon, Falco, Fox, and Marth
Techs & Getups Frame Data

Mostly self-explanatory. The "Horizontal Movement At" number is my best judgement of the frame you'd be reading and reacting to for the roll in that direction when techchasing. The higher the number is the less time you'll have after reading it to punish before the roll ends.

In general, the ones with high distance and movement values will be more difficult to punish by reaction, though the size and position of the character matters as well like for Bowser his size effectively negates a fair amount of the distance it covers.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------


Captain Falcon:falcon:

Tech-Roll Forward
Total: 40
Horizontal Movement At: 11
Distance: 16.6 ft
Invincible: 1-20

Tech-Roll Backward
Total: 40
Horizontal Movement At: 8
Distance: 13.6 ft
Invincible: 1-20

Getup-Attack (Back)
Total: 49
Hit: 19-20 (Both Sides), 28-29 (Both Sides)
Invincible: 1-29

Getup-Attack (Stomach)
Total: 49
Hit: 20-21 (Behind), 26-27 (Front)
Invincible: 1-27

Getup-Roll Forward (Back)
Total: 35
Horizontal Movement At: 5
Distance: 11 ft
Invincible: 1-23

Getup-Roll Forward (Stomach)
Total: 35
Horizontal Movement At: 10
Distance: 11 ft
Invincible: 1-19

Getup-Roll Backward (Back)
Total: 35
Horizontal Movement At: 5
Distance: 11 ft
Invincible: 1-19

Getup-Roll Backward (Stomach)
Total: 35
Horizontal Movement At: 15
Distance: 11 ft
Invincible: 1-25
-------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------



Falco:falco:

Tech-Roll Forward
Total: 40
Horizontal Movement At: 9
Distance: 14.4 ft
Invincible: 1-20

Tech-Roll Backward
Total: 40
Horizontal Movement At: 6
Distance: 14.4 ft
Invincible: 1-20

Getup-Attack (Back)
Total: 49
Hit: 17-19 (Front), 24-26 (Behind)
Invincible: 1-26

Getup-Attack (Stomach)
Total: 49
Hit: 19-20 (Behind), 25-26 (Front)
Invincible: 1-26

Getup-Roll Forward (Back)
Total: 35
Horizontal Movement At: 6
Distance: 12.4 ft
Invincible: 1-19

Getup-Roll Forward (Stomach)
Total: 35
Horizontal Movement At: 8
Distance: 12.6 ft
Invincible: 1-19

Getup-Roll Backward (Back)
Total: 35
Horizontal Movement At: 12
Distance: 12.8 ft
Invincible: 12-29 (Not a typo. If the roll takes you to an edge you will slip off unless an attack is timed on that exact frame)

Getup-Roll Backward (Stomach)
Total: 35
Horizontal Movement At: 5
Distance: 12.6 ft
Invincible: 1-24
-------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------


Fox:fox:

Tech-Roll Forward
Total: 40
Horizontal Movement At: 9
Distance: 12.6 ft
Invincible: 1-20

Tech-Roll Backward
Total: 40
Horizontal Movement At: 6
Distance: 12.6 ft
Invincible: 1-20

Getup-Attack (Back)
Total: 49
Hit: 17-19 (Front), 24-26 (Behind)
Invincible: 1-26

Getup-Attack (Stomach)
Total: 49
Hit: 19-20 (Behind), 25-26 (Front)
Invincible: 1-26

Getup-Roll Forward (Back)
Total: 35
Horizontal Movement At: 6
Distance: 11 ft
Invincible: 1-19

Getup-Roll Forward (Stomach)
Total: 35
Horizontal Movement At: 8
Distance: 11 ft
Invincible: 1-19

Getup-Roll Backward (Back)
Total: 35
Horizontal Movement At: 12
Distance: 11.2 ft
Invincible: 12-29 (Not a typo. If the roll takes you to an edge you will slip off unless an attack is timed on that exact frame)

Getup-Roll Backward (Stomach)
Total: 35
Horizontal Movement At: 5
Distance: 11 ft
Invincible: 1-24
-------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------


Marth:marth:

Tech-Roll Forward
Total: 40
Horizontal Movement At: 9
Distance: 15.2 ft
Invincible: 1-20

Tech-Roll Backward
Total: 40
Horizontal Movement At: 8
Distance: 15.2 ft
Invincible: 1-20

Getup-Attack (Back)
Total: 49
Hit: 20-23 (Behind), 30-31 (Front)
Invincible: 1-31

Getup-Attack (Stomach)
Total: 49
Hit: 22-23 (Front), 27-28 (Behind)
Invincible: 1-28

Getup-Roll Forward (Back)
Total: 35
Horizontal Movement At: 5
Distance: 12.2 ft
Invincible: 6-19

Getup-Roll Forward (Stomach)
Total: 35
Horizontal Movement At: 6
Distance: 11.4 ft
Invincible: 1-19

Getup-Roll Backward (Back)
Total: 35
Horizontal Movement At: 5
Distance: 10 ft
Invincible: 1-19

Getup-Roll Backward (Stomach)
Total: 35
Horizontal Movement At: 13
Distance: 11.4 ft
Invincible: 1-19
-------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------
For the characters you specified, the difference in frame data between lying on back/stomach is only 1 or 2 frames before the first hit frame. Frame 17 hits are quite hard to react to when also considering other options that require different responses. An audio cue unique from the other options you are trying to filter out can make this easier. For example, if there's a unique grunt that Fox were to use on the very first frame of his getup attack, this is quicker to react & respond to than the visuals of the animation. Reaction times may vary between humans but it's known that people react to audio stimuli quicker than visual ones.

I think a lot of players twitch react to (anything) with shield, and then shield grab the getup attack or wavedash out of shield to follow rolls. Wizzrobe popularized the strategy of crouching in front of the downed player to CC+ASDI Down against the getup attack and dash -> JC grab any rolls as needed; this strategy fails at higher percents when the getup attack knocks you down even if crouching. Maybe PPMD has something more specific to Marth that works well 🤔
 

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If you crouch as close as possible to Marth (as Marth or Sheik I believe), you completely dodge his get-up attack which makes missed tech chasing him a lot easier.

With other characters, sometimes it's worth to CC --> tipper for a big reward. You want to be almost as close to them as possible in order to get that tipper spacing.
 
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bestjava

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Hi PP I have a question which is not very technical but I believe it is highly important. I understand this thread is about Tiara Guy so if my question is unrelated feel free to ignore or delete it.

How do you go about analyzing matches emotionally and practically?

I am extremely motivated to get better and I feel like I would do anything, but when it comes to analyzing my games I just cant get myself to give it much time without getting frustrated. I usually end up giving some surface level answer as to why I lost and going about my day. Do you have any advice for a player like me who struggles with watching my matches? As I understand, a large part of the reason you became so great at melee is your ability to analyze situations and reform your gameplay. Was it always easy for you to watch matches you lose?

I feel bad just asking this, as I could ask more specific things if I were to deeply analyze my games... but I find it hard to do so. I am hoping others have this issue and can learn from your response. Again, I am sorry if this question seems lazy.
 

Dr Peepee

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It's fine. Others will likely benefit from this.

It was fine watching matches I lost because I wanted to win and learn more than I was hurt by the loss. This was especially true when I was a rising player. I always wanted to learn WAY MORE than I had any judgment on myself for losing. However, when I became a top player this changed. I didn't ever watch my losses at Genesis 2, or maybe I did years later. I did not want to see how I played so much more poorly than before, even though I knew I could still probably have learned some things from the games.

This issue is primarily about avoiding some negative feelings. This is why you give yourself some silly reason for why you lost and move on. When you think of watching the matches, it is most helpful to think "this is valuable for me, an opportunity. I can grow from this." If you instead think "this is too much effort, they play a dumb character/etc" then it's time to think of why you think this because you know it's not productive. Maybe you think this because admitting you lost straight up is too painful because it forces you to confront fear of failure, or maybe you adopted this behavior from someone else and aren't sure what to do with it. However it is happening, it's important to keep in mind you need to follow these thoughts and feelings if you truly want to get somewhere.

A suggestion: write down this sentence stem and 6-10 endings as fast as possible without thinking.

"If I want to analyze Melee, I will-"

and then

"If I can analyze Melee, then I can also-"

You may find some useful endings here. This technique is good for clearing psychological blocks because it passes the conscious mind, so don't think of the answers.
 

Kotastic

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Say I dash forward in a slight frame advantage situation to create some pressure. They call out my dash forward and attack in place in response to that.

Example: Marth vs Fox, Fox whiffs a grab while I'm somewhat close, but I can't quite punish on time with my own grab. But I take advantage of the situation by closing in the space with dash forward. I'm trying to sniff a spotdodge which is common from the dash forward pressure, but then the Fox calls me out by drilling in place.

How would you play out such situation? Would you then control space with jump in place or retreat?
 

Dr Peepee

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Great question.

I don't think there is a correct way to play this unless you can get a hit. So you could jump slightly toward them to pressure shield and any forward movement, or you could slightly wait and let them dash back then intercept with Fsmash/grab/Dtilt/whatever. You could fake these things. You could move back which can work well if the Fox moves in, or pivot Fsmash if you think the Fox will remain in place or move forward. This is a place where habitual actions on both sides can become common, so be sure to see if you can get anything routine from the opponent either by conditioning or their own preference.
 

Kotastic

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Speaking of that situation, I find it really hard to like...remember their conditioning/habits in those spots. It's such a whim's notice that I have no time to think, and at best I can only think of like 2-3 options on the spot when in reality there's dozens of situations that can play out. So on top of the macro game plan which is simple enough for me to process, the scraps I can't process and I let my hands take over, for the better or worse.


I appreciate this sequence a lot more since I think this relates to this topic. A lot of layers went into that pressure and the interception in the end...I definitely wouldn't think that far ahead with my current skill taking into account opponent's habits like that. Do you recall if you were consciously trying to call out his habits or was it more subconscious?
 
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Dr Peepee

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That particular very last thing I did was a setup that I had decided was legit, and the stuff previously was a setup for the setup. So kinda yeah but this particular situation has some unique factors I believe.
 

Kotastic

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What is generally the best position to be when under the top and side platform vs fox? I find being directly under is good for side plat but I'm not sure for top plat.
 

Dr Peepee

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For top platform, it can depend on stage. On BF and DL, I think being more or less directly under is fine. For FoD/YS, I'm not sure there is truly a safe place to stand and it's better to shift around some. Still, standing directly under center can be good so they can't chain a platform attack into you, though sometimes if you find yourself shifting to one side it can be better to duck under a platform for cover.
 

Kotastic

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I'm having trouble on how to properly play a position where the opponent primarily waits for a counterattack like 70% of the time but then attacks 30% of the time to counter the counterattack.

For a more specific example, Fox is on YS the side platform and SH's in. I'm at center and fair in place to stuff out the SH angle, but then Fox DJ's to top platform and it feels like he has a slight advantage then from my fair lag. I'm not ever sure when to stuff out them going to the top platform or if I should just wait on attacking their landing. The same applies to when they feint attacking from top platform to DJ back on top platform.

Similar situation in a neutral stance in FD where I'm within Fox's SH nair range so I want to stuff it out with SH nair, but then he FH's instead.

I'm not sure of the rate on how often I should go in vs just waiting for their attacks.
 

Dr Peepee

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There are various ways to attack this. One is to be preemptive yourself, so in the YS example you could be the one moving in first so he can't SH in so easily or get intercepted if he does. You can choose to be more passive and instead wait a little longer and maybe jump slightly later and that could help you to DJ catch the top platform in some instances, or perhaps just SH backward and give up the DJ in order to encourage that to happen more for a future punish later. Then there are other variables like what happens around the mixup that may encourage Fox to do the direct vs indirect plays, such as percent or stage position.
 

DickNixon

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How do you go about getting rid of bad habits in the game? I try to kick myself mentally everytime I do them, but it is hard because most of the people I play against can't punish me for them.
 

Dr Peepee

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I think of what I wish to do instead of that and mentally rehearse it. Sometimes I rewind the match I'm watching and have myself do it instead of what happens. It's best to start a new one instead of forcefully change an old one I find.
 

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PP, I find it hard to beat FH attacks when I'm moving, across all matchups like Sheik and FF'ers. It's at lot easier when I stand still then jump, but then it allows them to manipulate me. I think also part of it is when I'm moving, it's naturally giving me less of a window to beat FH as they descend and I'm dashing, and maybe some concentration too crucial to react to their descent. How would you approach this problem?

Also if you think Marth should play close against Falcon, how close in range are we talking about?
 
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Dr Peepee

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Is your main issue them FH'ing into you? This isn't entirely clear to me what about FH is the problem. Are you able to cover FH into you when moving? But maybe not drift in?

Marth should end up close to Falcon, but he cannot stay there. The default range can be argued to be quite large, but since Falcon's aerials are kinda telegraphed and his grab is smaller, you can play inside his TR reasonably. Maybe around the point his dash becomes run and he aerials in place is a way to think of the spacing.
 

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I can't really cover FH's drifting at me when I'm dashing unless I jump preemptively.

So you think I should be at when his dash becomes a run? Isn't that fairly far? What if I'm inside that range and he has room to dash back?
 
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Dr Peepee

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It is fairly far, but you can go inside sometimes when you have discouraged some approaches. I guess you can go deeper in there if you feel you can avoid his aerials and grab approaches more. I find at that point a lot of Falcon players don't mix it up a lot so you can functionally play closer than this but I was speaking more in an ideal sense I guess.

Drifting in isn't the same as drifting while also initially jumping into you, but I'll assume you mean drifting only for now I guess. I was just thinking it has been a while since we have discussed this, but maybe you could try doing a couple simple movements then stopping and checking, or having small waits built into your game so you can react to them more easily and jump in time?
 

Kotastic

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So when I'm close within the dash range, it's a read based on conditioning/habits on their end. Even with that in mind, you think that's favorable for Marth? Otherwise, i should hang out around the run range as my safe spot?

Well atm I find myself getting hit by sheiks fh drift in fair way more often than I should, let alone ff'ers fh version of that when I'm moving. I could implement a short dash back and pivot fair as my wait to combat fh approaches, so that's probably something I should test
 
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Dr Peepee

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Well, within dash range is still good because you have Marth's dash which leans him under and away from grab and aerial which is very good for you. Plus you have great air-to-air on Falcon. It may be better to say you can sit around that range instead of within it solely.

Given a floaty FH, you can probably have a set pattern like a dash back pivot you can do reasonably on reaction when seeing it.
 

Kotastic

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When Fox is close to punish dtilt directly, is the only acceptable jump slight drift back? I feel like I'm not accomplishing much jumping in place or in when the fox is close by mixing an instant approach and a slight wait.

When the Fox can punish a dtilt close by and mixing an instant approach and a slight wait or FH, I'm honestly not too sure how to properly play that position.
 

Ladder

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Hi Peepee, a friend of mine shared this video about neutral. What are your thoughts on this video? Are there other important neutral game aspects that this video doesn't cover? Personally I was wondering how playing for center stage and getting incremental advantages relates to the mixups (overshoot, whiff punish and undershoot) explained in this video and where it would fit in.

 
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Dr Peepee

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It's more in depth than a lot of other videos and explains common ideas like overshoot and undershoot a little better.

But yes, center stage influences all of this. You can't even really overshoot, or it'd be less, if the opponent is cornered. Overshooting is different if you play vs a character that likes going to the side platform. Incremental stage can somewhat be used with movement and undershooting, though that depends on the character. Marth can't really undershoot and take stage too easily unless his opponent is playing defensively or more passively because the lag he is in will encourage an attack a lot of the time.
 

BoboKoz

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Hey PP so regarding tech chasing with Marth (off fthrow) Zain here walks forward a bit after fthrowing and reacts with regrab for tech in place.


Sheik and Captain falcon when tech chasing usually follow up with a wave dash forward and then react.
If IBDW had Di away and teched away would Zain still be able to react->Dash->regrab after walking forward or will IBDW be too far out.

My question for you is Is there any disadvantages/advantages to walking forward vs wave dashing forward vs dash forward when fthrow tech and if walking forward when tech chasing allows you to cover all 4 tech options at medium to low percents.
 
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Dr Peepee

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Depends on percent and how quickly he reacts, and also how much stage is left. But in this situation, he may have needed dash WD grab if he could get it at all. It's a pretty easy test. At that percent it's close.

Running grab drags your grab hitbox behind you, but that matters less vs Fox. If the Fox is closer, then running grab is fine. Walking grab is both technically easiest and also gives a larger grab hitbox, and since it is easier it allows for quicker reactions. You cannot always walk to cover becuase of DI away and possible tech away.
 
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