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ItsJusOwl

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Hi

I'm trying to come to terms with an aspect of my play that's very general and i think has been holding me back for a long time. My friend recently brought it up again to me and i feel like i have to address this if i'm going to make any notable strides in this game.

I don't know what parts of the game i should focus on. To be more specific, I tend to fixate on small things that don't really matter for the grand scheme of winning sets or increasing my relevant information to use in specific matchups. I'll try to lab inane stuff like, if a sheik tries to amsah tech when landing with an up b on stage, i'll think of positioning myself to reverse downsmash to where the first hit will set off their amsah tech and the second hit of dsmash will hit them offstage.

I want to focus more on things that could actually make me a better player, such as practical edgeguarding scenarios or how to take advantage of stage positioning in neutral.

Part of me thinks it should be easy for me to fix a problem like this, but i find it very difficult and i feel like i need to be steered in the right direction. I can elaborate more if this is unclear.
 
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Dr Peepee

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Hi

I'm trying to come to terms with an aspect of my play that's very general and i think has been holding me back for a long time. My friend recently brought it up again to me and i feel like i have to address this if i'm going to make any notable strides in this game.

I don't know what parts of the game i should focus on. To be more specific, I tend to fixate on small things that don't really matter for the grand scheme of winning sets or increasing my relevant information to use in specific matchups. I'll try to lab inane stuff like, if a sheik tries to amsah tech when landing with an up b on stage, i'll think of positioning myself to reverse downsmash to where the first hit will set off their amsah tech and the second hit of dsmash will hit them offstage.

I want to focus more on things that could actually make me a better player, such as practical edgeguarding scenarios or how to take advantage of stage positioning in neutral.

Part of me thinks it should be easy for me to fix a problem like this, but i find it very difficult and i feel like i need to be steered in the right direction. I can elaborate more if this is unclear.
A very interesting problem, as usually those who approach the game this way take pride in it and seem to not want to change it. So this will take some work until I can understand it better I imagine. Perhaps as an upside, Marth is a character who can have pretty clear answers in a lot of situations and he's not overly complex.

To start, it is usually best to focus on things that do give more reward. These include all situations in which you can combo harder, and all likely situations in neutral, as well as your favored win positions and least favored losing positions. You also want to consider which moves to win neutral with as a way to bridge the two. For Marth, it's usually a grab that helps this, but Fair is quite a good complement to it as an example as people may attack quickly to avoid Fair coming out and get pivot grabbed instead for a common scenario....and Fairing people out of the air also combos well on its own in many instances. How well does this compare to your usual method of problem solving, and have you done things like this?

How's this?
 

Zorcey

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Given that you abide by the rule that "jumping defensively is pointless" against Falco, what do you make of Zain's zoning style in the matchup, and you do think playing it that way is effective? There isn't very much footage of you playing against Falco right now, but you seem to jump in neutral very rarely from what I've seen.

Do you think that taking a laser and then immediately jumping to Fair Falco's approach on reaction is a good play/preferable to take laser Jab? It's an option I see Zain use a lot, and my impression is that it's higher reward, but easier for Falco to exploit if he plays around it.

When Falco is a bit outside your immediate aerial range, do you have suggestions to deal with him mixing up between dash/WD back and zoning you with slight aerial in/Bair and Utilt? I get him into these spots where he should be more afraid, but I don't push in with a mixup because I don't want to give up the advantage, and then he abuses me not really doing anything and yolos me/gets a laser out.
 

Dr Peepee

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The only defensive aerial Zain does is Fair after landing or when Mango jumps in with laser, which I just don't think is a good option in the matchup. Zain waits a lot and he did better when he waited and did some PS than when he started aerial'ing to approach. That jump in with aerial and take laser Fair is good, but I think it is overdone. If Falco just doesn't set up a laser on Marth's SH approach then he can sometimes directly punish the aerial or put Marth in a bad position out of that approach. But that is also at top level, so you might be able to get away with Nair'ing at Falco more since it's a decent option. Try it out.

The take laser Fair only works if Falco doesn't directly run in after laser, or is farther away iirc....or maybe with a full pullback? If you're ever wrong it really sucks even if Falco just lasers in place again, which is not the case for jab.

You should Fair him in those situations, it beats Bair and Utilt and he can't really dash away to avoid it usually. You can usually wait and if he dashes back you can jump forward and Fair whatever he does iirc.
 

Zorcey

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Could you explain what constitutes a defensive jump and what constitutes an offensive one? I don't think I understand this concept very well.

What do you think Marth should be approaching Falco with if not SH? I have trouble with this because Marth moving between lasers feels very telegraphed. I get away taking massive risks like DAing or Nairing in between Falco lasers right now to encourage him to approach me more, but I'm not sure it's sustainable.

When you say to Nair at Falco, do you mean to Nair in or run up to Falco and Nair? I'm not sure how to make the latter work because of the above problem.
 

Dr Peepee

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Defensive is usually backward and offensive is usually forward, though if you move back then jump in place that would count as more defensive too, and vice versa.

Run up side B hits laser startup, so does rising Fair. Sometimes you can Nair him but you can often confirm places to use this well and can also hit laser or aerials. But yeah, you don't always NEED to attack, sometimes just getting closer threatens these things and that is enough.

First, slow down laser regularity. Then, you can do more things like run up and Nair. You can Nair in occasionally if you want, which should also slow down laser regularity.
 

Kotastic

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How do I go about recovering better vs. spacies? Particularly when...
-When to use side-b properly
-How do play around their dsmash range when recovering low
-How to play around them jumping or tournament winnering over my upb
Various spacie players have told me that my recovery is far worse than zain's.
 

Dr Peepee

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Fox you shouldn't side B much unless they can't jump out and hit you with shine or they don't seem like they'll do it. Vs Falco you can do it more and it can help him stay away from edge.

You can space up-b to have it hit them instead of them going over it.

Dsmash if they're close go farther away and vice versa, but you should just tech and Bair or FF up-B again imo. I don't think you can avoid it, and if you space edgegrab they can sometimes walk forward Dsmash(esp Falco) which is more painful because you can't tech then lol.
 

Zorcey

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How do you avoid mentally committing to your next action before you've actually observed what your opponent is doing? Is it just a matter of breaking down sequences into their parts and practicing reacting out of each individually by myself?
 

maclo4

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Hi

I'm trying to come to terms with an aspect of my play that's very general and i think has been holding me back for a long time. My friend recently brought it up again to me and i feel like i have to address this if i'm going to make any notable strides in this game.

I don't know what parts of the game i should focus on. To be more specific, I tend to fixate on small things that don't really matter for the grand scheme of winning sets or increasing my relevant information to use in specific matchups. I'll try to lab inane stuff like, if a sheik tries to amsah tech when landing with an up b on stage, i'll think of positioning myself to reverse downsmash to where the first hit will set off their amsah tech and the second hit of dsmash will hit them offstage.

I want to focus more on things that could actually make me a better player, such as practical edgeguarding scenarios or how to take advantage of stage positioning in neutral.

Part of me thinks it should be easy for me to fix a problem like this, but i find it very difficult and i feel like i need to be steered in the right direction. I can elaborate more if this is unclear.

I've had this same problem. Watch leffens video about his practice routine. It's super helpful in giving a guideline. Basically he has a list of basic tech and punish that he practices for a short, set amount of time. So I edited his routine for marth and eventually transitioned it to a more punish focused list once I noticed significant improvements in my tech (I still do the tech, just a bit shorter amt of time compared to punish).

If youre curious, my routine looks like this, and for each section I do it for 2-5 minutes ish except for punish stuff. For most of the tech, I also try to imagine an opponent so that I can shadowbox and practice some neutral while also mainly practicing tech skill:

1. Wavedash: wavedash in the most basic and complex ways I can think of. Make sure to imagine an opponent and imagine how the WD's would be useful in a game.
2. Dash dance: do the most basic and complex patterns I can think of. Similar to WD practice
3. Ground moves: wd dtilt as fast as possible, do diff combinations of dash + wd + ground move. pivot grab, jc grab, pivot fsmash, etc.
4. Aerial moves: move out of lag as fast as possible, practice diff spacings, etc. (gonna give less description now)
5. OOS options (unclepunsh is nice for this)
6. ledge options (I sometimes skip this)(also use unclepunch)
7. ps lasers (also sometimes skip this)
8. practice any specific tech skill youre bad at (for me its been double fair to the right a lot and I got way better at it!)

-----
punish stuff. I usually take my time on these and dont put such a strict time limit. Ive found that working on this stuff most directly affects how good I play, and it feels rly good to implement something you practice in this area and tangibly see it working. (I usually use unclepunch for this but the DI on 20xx cpu's actually can be better just less easily controlled)

9. Reaction tech chasing (so helpful to practice reactions)
10. punish a fast faller with your best/most common combo starters
11. same for a midweight char (sheik or marth, choose one). Practice up throw followups specifically, along with reaction tech chasing and stuff
12. Punish a floatie (usually puff or peach). Same idea, use your most common combo starters and practice the combos.
13. Chaingrab a spacie on fd

TLDR: I hope this was helpful, basically the idea is "practice a set list of important things every time for a shorter amount of time, rather than spending a long amount of time doing one specific thing when you practice".

**well now that Ive already typed this out, PP do you have any suggestions on what I should change?**
 

Dr Peepee

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I've had this same problem. Watch leffens video about his practice routine. It's super helpful in giving a guideline. Basically he has a list of basic tech and punish that he practices for a short, set amount of time. So I edited his routine for marth and eventually transitioned it to a more punish focused list once I noticed significant improvements in my tech (I still do the tech, just a bit shorter amt of time compared to punish).

If youre curious, my routine looks like this, and for each section I do it for 2-5 minutes ish except for punish stuff. For most of the tech, I also try to imagine an opponent so that I can shadowbox and practice some neutral while also mainly practicing tech skill:

1. Wavedash: wavedash in the most basic and complex ways I can think of. Make sure to imagine an opponent and imagine how the WD's would be useful in a game.
2. Dash dance: do the most basic and complex patterns I can think of. Similar to WD practice
3. Ground moves: wd dtilt as fast as possible, do diff combinations of dash + wd + ground move. pivot grab, jc grab, pivot fsmash, etc.
4. Aerial moves: move out of lag as fast as possible, practice diff spacings, etc. (gonna give less description now)
5. OOS options (unclepunsh is nice for this)
6. ledge options (I sometimes skip this)(also use unclepunch)
7. ps lasers (also sometimes skip this)
8. practice any specific tech skill youre bad at (for me its been double fair to the right a lot and I got way better at it!)

-----
punish stuff. I usually take my time on these and dont put such a strict time limit. Ive found that working on this stuff most directly affects how good I play, and it feels rly good to implement something you practice in this area and tangibly see it working. (I usually use unclepunch for this but the DI on 20xx cpu's actually can be better just less easily controlled)

9. Reaction tech chasing (so helpful to practice reactions)
10. punish a fast faller with your best/most common combo starters
11. same for a midweight char (sheik or marth, choose one). Practice up throw followups specifically, along with reaction tech chasing and stuff
12. Punish a floatie (usually puff or peach). Same idea, use your most common combo starters and practice the combos.
13. Chaingrab a spacie on fd

TLDR: I hope this was helpful, basically the idea is "practice a set list of important things every time for a shorter amount of time, rather than spending a long amount of time doing one specific thing when you practice".

**well now that Ive already typed this out, PP do you have any suggestions on what I should change?**
I'd add in tech chasing fast fallers. If you feel it works fine, then I don't have a major critique.

Dr. Member there are too many sharp stick pokey pokey guys in my smash bros when will Sakurai stop?
I LOVE WAIFUS
 

Kotastic

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When upairing spacies on FD, when do you determine to actually stop building damage and go for the kill? I feel like I'm missing a key window when they DI my upairs to center stage, and I have them past 100% and it's actually harder to kill them as opposed to tippering them with an fsmash earlier when they weren't at center. This is even harder when they SDI my upairs up.
 

Dr Peepee

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So, Uair vs Fair vs Fsmash can be a mixup when facing the edge. This tends to start around 57-60% iirc. I think Uair should stop once they are around 80% or a bit earlier. I tend to prefer pushing them out at that mid percent window and if they can't slideoff or fall offstage then they still tech by the edge which is better for you to get a killing mixup.

Weak Uair can help with SDI up, and is what you're looking for more when you do need to Uair at 80%+
 

Kotastic

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Do you think it's possible to go out there and fair falco's side-b on reaction? Very often I try to do it on reaction from the sound startup but i either clank or fair too late to my doom.
 

Zorcey

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When you Uthrow spacies to the side platforms on stages with long ones like BF/DL, between about 10-30% when they land relatively quickly, how far from the platform do you think you can start the throw and still should be able to react to all tech options? Do you think it's different between the two stages?
 

Dr Peepee

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Kadano said 26% after throw on BF on Fox iirc, so Falco it'd be higher, and DL it'd be higher for both. This is so you can drift with Uair, but it seems applicable to other things probably. If I uthrow onto platform earlier, I'm banking on them missing the tech or just teching in place quickly so I can hit them. Throwing Falco to the edge is fine if you're worried, but not nearly as good on Fox.
 

Kotastic

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do you think vs peach, shielding/crouching at DA range but outside of fc nair range is a good idea?
 
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Zorcey

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Under what conditions would you approach Sheik with Rising Fair? What do you think the main uses of the tool are in that matchup?
 

Zorcey

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What are some things that could have happened which would encourage Sheik to jump or shield in that position? I would think the less stage she has, the more likely those options are, and I guess if you've punished her for lunging recently?
 

maclo4

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Anyone have a good way to practice juggling sheik or marth? I've been setting up 20xx recordings but I'm wondering if theres a better/diff way to do it
 

Zorcey

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Do you have advice on how to, if not temper empathy, to use it constructively? I'm very self-conscious about the fact that when I beat people they can become very sad, discouraged, or angry. While my reaction to salt/anger is a little more complicated, when people become sad or discouraged I have a difficult time not feeling sorry for them. As I grow and beat people who have been playing for a long time (especially when it's longer than I have), I find this increases in both frequency and intensity. But even against newer or worse players it just bothers me when they become demoralized.

Where this becomes a problem is that I'm often preoccupied with thoughts about my opponent's well-being during a tournament set or even just friendlies, which takes me way out of the game and makes me hesitate (which is just unacceptable). I've experimented with trying to demoralize people on purpose to inure myself to it lol, and while tbh it (kinda?) helped, I'm not very happy with that approach. I've also worked on just trying to reinforce my will to win with various exercises, but that's had mixed results too. Honestly, I may be able to get good results from the methods I just described if I keep at it, but I'm not sure it's what I want.

You've talked before about how people would get used to losing to you/respect your skill if you just beat them enough, but how do you actually deal with the knowledge that you ARE demoralizing your opponent right now? That much is out of my control, but I how do I make the most of what is in my control?
 

Dr Peepee

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These people are not mad at you or sad with you, it's about what you are making them realize and experience within themselves. It is not necessarily fixable, and in tournament you should see this as a chance to show them these things and give them an opportunity to make peace with it instead of avoid it. In friendlies, the situation is more complicated. Body them when you can for practice, but it can also help to creatively sandbag sometimes to not make them outright quit(you can still try hard during this by limiting yourself such as by not grabbing for a while but still trying, etc). If you become good enough, people expect to lose to you often so they don't get bothered by it, and also if you beat them often enough it can become more likely that they aren't bothered by losing to you specifically anymore, but it depends on how it happens and such. I think you're trying to sort it out, and hopefully understanding them and trying some new approaches will help. Is this useful?
 

Zorcey

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I guess what I need to do is make peace with the reality that causing pain is a part of competition, huh. But that helps me grow, and it gives others that opportunity as well, so it's ultimately part of the reason I want to compete.

I think there's much more I could unearth regarding this question, but since it involves asking why I feel so strongly about it, it quickly gets complicated. I suppose it's another thing I'll have to work out over time. I like the suggestion about creative ways of sandbagging, it sounds like a great exercise to improve flexibility/punishes, so I'll definitely try that out. I have to get a lot better - at this stuff and the game - so I'll keep pushing. Thanks as always PP.
 

quixotic

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I guess what I need to do is make peace with the reality that causing pain is a part of competition, huh. But that helps me grow, and it gives others that opportunity as well, so it's ultimately part of the reason I want to compete.

I think there's much more I could unearth regarding this question, but since it involves asking why I feel so strongly about it, it quickly gets complicated. I suppose it's another thing I'll have to work out over time. I like the suggestion about creative ways of sandbagging, it sounds like a great exercise to improve flexibility/punishes, so I'll definitely try that out. I have to get a lot better - at this stuff and the game - so I'll keep pushing. Thanks as always PP.
Yesterday I watched a youtube video where Scar talks to a psychiatrist Dr. K: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckNUjZU1QF0 (probably helpful)

A talking point comes up about how Scar is anxious that he'll **** up raising his 3 y.o. child. Dr. K asks him if his child is amazing (yes), and if he takes credit for raising his child that way. His answer is no. Dr. K mentions that parents can make good or bad decisions in the moment, but they can't completely control how they're children will grow up. They can't control the outcome.

Why do you feel like you're "causing pain"? In your first post you say that "demoralizing your opponent ... is out of your control". Would you feel the same way if you saw these people playing some other guy and getting frustrated?

If anything is out of your control, it's how these people feel when they play melee. It's inevitable that these people will play someone in melee, and feel frustrated/angry/sad when they lose. It seems like not only do you empathize with them, you're trying to take responsibility for their feelings. Why?
 

Kotastic

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When you burn all of Peach's resources going down and all she has is airdodge down and fair, do you try to cover both with a low lag move or hard call out one of them for a kill setup?

When do you discern when you use sh or fh fair vs Peach's aerials?
 

Dr Peepee

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Sometimes you can swing and hope she airdodges and then Utilt kill, sometimes you can Utilt and usually be fine. It doesn't matter much you don't need big risks because if you push her offstage she's dead anyway.

SH if she is lower and closer, FH if she is higher and farther. If she starts early Fair higher up then it's usually better to SH it or something after it comes out.
 

Zorcey

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Yesterday I watched a youtube video where Scar talks to a psychiatrist Dr. K: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckNUjZU1QF0 (probably helpful)

A talking point comes up about how Scar is anxious that he'll **** up raising his 3 y.o. child. Dr. K asks him if his child is amazing (yes), and if he takes credit for raising his child that way. His answer is no. Dr. K mentions that parents can make good or bad decisions in the moment, but they can't completely control how they're children will grow up. They can't control the outcome.

Why do you feel like you're "causing pain"? In your first post you say that "demoralizing your opponent ... is out of your control". Would you feel the same way if you saw these people playing some other guy and getting frustrated?

If anything is out of your control, it's how these people feel when they play melee. It's inevitable that these people will play someone in melee, and feel frustrated/angry/sad when they lose. It seems like not only do you empathize with them, you're trying to take responsibility for their feelings. Why?
It does seem like I take responsibility for my opponent's feelings, but I couldn't tell you exactly why. I think at least part of it comes from projection though: asking how I would feel if I were them and lost, and then I suppose experiencing those emotions on their behalf. But maybe it's a coping mechanism I use to distance myself from how I'd actually feel if I actually lost, and it's those insecurities just taking another shape. So maybe I take responsibility for others' feelings about the game to avoid taking responsibility for my own? Idk that's just an idea I came up with the past few days, but... it's possible I guess.
 

Kotastic

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I feel like I have a very hard time identifying a fox's tempo to even get a simple dash back grab. It feels like i'm reading their exact approach and timing of the nair to get the right spacing and before their spotdodge or something and I feel like there's a variable i'm missing somewhere. I end up resorting to using my sword because it eliminates the spacing part at least, but it's obviously not as big of a reward.

I've always felt the falco mu was easier for me because it's easier for me to identify tempo with how simpler my tools are. With a faster mu like fox where honestly anything goes...i get lost. Advice?
 

Kotastic

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It's partly that, but I also have trouble identifying when the Fox will actually want to go in or just stand there/retreat. I often feel like Fox gets to choose the pace of the mu and I can't identify it.
 
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