Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Dr Peepee]

Thanks Agrathor! =) We gettin there.

In addition to what Zorcey said, keeping it simpler can be useful in the matchup. If the opponent shields or holds down much I'd lay off the dash attack if I were you.

 

[Agrathor3]

Okay gotcha that's pretty much what I had been doing except for the jump when they jump part and based on kadanos perfect marth class he has combos on himself off of uthrows so I'll have to practice those as well as not committing too hard in neutral I noticed after reviewing gameplay that I approach too often and commit to that approach even when they are clearly ready for it as well as being more precise with my spacing and being more efficient with getting to the spacing I want. So this probably means i need to work on more thought out movement patterns for taking different stage positions and taking/giving space. Also swing less and bait more XD

 

[Kotastic]

Hey PP, hope you're having a great Thanksgiving!

I'm grateful for my growth that you still contribute greatly. It's amazing how you still offer this service and how it's greatly expanded to your stream and discord. You still got it and I believe in the return.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Thanks Ko that's a wonderful message so I'll do this as well now! =)

I'm thankful for motivated people who are hungry to learn Melee, I'm thankful for people who care enough to support me and keep me going, I'm thankful for the friends, family, and healers/teachers I have. I'm thankful for how sick Melee is and how many people know it. I'm thankful for every single person who reads this, and I'm thankful that there's a lot to look forward to.

Have a great day everyone, and thanks for being you <3

 

[maxono1]

A Agrathor3 if you have a wii you can put 20xx on there as well

 

[Agrathor3]

A Agrathor3 if you have a wii you can put 20xx on there

A Agrathor3 if you have a wii you can put 20xx on there as well

I use a gamecube with vanilla on it for my practice but I appreciate the info XD

 

[Zorcey]

I know it ultimately depends on how they play it, but do you have some general advice for dealing with invincible Fox?

Do you think that playing slowly and consciously is necessarily a sign of learning, or do you think it could also be a sign of not trusting one's knowledge? (In other words, do you think heavily conscious playing of a position/matchup goes away on its own, or do you think people can cling to it even when it no longer provides benefits (if there is a point where it turns out to do more harm than good, I'm not sure about that.))

 

[Dr Peepee]

You can get on the edge, you can move a bit away from his landing spot and mix crossing up vs moving back and also the timing of it, you can be slightly farther away and keep playing that mixup as he slightly comes in, you can and should use side platforms on YS/FoD, etc.

Yes, it can also mean you are staying in a conscious mode.

 

[Zorcey]

Then if you find you are stuck in a conscious mode, how would you suggest dealing with that issue? Where do you think one can derive the confidence to move out of it? I don't consider myself a good judge atm of when to move between conscious play and letting go, but I'm not sure how to build that sense.

 

[Dr Peepee]

It took a lot of fighting and working on myself to do this because I used to never let go of control. This is still hard to answer.

I let go once I have built up practice and gotten adjusted to what I'm doing. I then just try it without thinking and if it works often then I know it's good. In friendlies, this depends on need. Sometimes you need to consciously note things more and sometimes, especially as tourneys come up, you need to focus on integrating and using it to your best benefit. There is often a feeling associated with it otherwise, but if you're not sure then you can just experiment. Maybe you can say you hit a tech 20 times in a row so now you can try without thinking for example.

 

[Zorcey]

There is admittedly comfort in the fact you struggled with this too and overcame it (at least enough to become as strong as you are now). I know the reason I won't let go of control is the result of doubt and all these different manifestations of it, so I've been trying to work on the problem from an angle of building trust. I think trying to focus on how I can do that in-game like you more or less suggest here will be help me reach that goal.

 

[AirFair]

pp, how should I be playing the mixup situation where I land very close to my opponent in unreactable range?

https://youtu.be/t85nqn6kaxs?t=60 for example
https://youtu.be/t85nqn6kaxs?t=107 2nd time this situation happened (this dtilt was supposed to beat him running at me after I landed, and I'm surprised it worked, cause it seemed like he planned on jumping in instead of running, I definitely got really lucky there, which is what scares me lol)

the way I currently think about it is to observe what my opponent will go for by moving away and priming defense out of that, and then the next time I am put in that situation I can adapt to that and counter it (dtilt in place, aerial, etc.). What concerns me is that I find myself guessing more than confirming (see above), and I want to see what I can change to improve at fighting in these situations.

vs luigi, how should I be interacting with his down b? I've been getting hit by it so many times when it's done out of me throwing him or juggling him, and I always either get hit before I can put a move out, or if I try to stuff it I'll clank with one of the hits if not outright missing it.

examples
https://youtu.be/AA9WlxuvrGE?t=314
https://youtu.be/AA9WlxuvrGE?t=412 (he was able to jab me after we clanked, which I fortunately cc shielded)
https://youtu.be/AA9WlxuvrGE?t=854

another question vs luigi is how do I deal with the falling/dj fireball that luigi throws right above the ledge when he's recovering? I don't know if I should go for ledge early when he's coming down since he could just dj over me and get onstage.

example
https://youtu.be/AA9WlxuvrGE?t=212

 

[Orange5000]

Orange, much can be said about this. My general response to people considering this is that you should just get better at the game because it is through the game that you influence people and make more use of any psychological information. Some people are better at using psychological information though or want to combine these things early for some other reason. So for them I say it’s fine but the focus should ideally still be on the game. Now if you wanted to intentionally frustrate people that could be somewhat different and it could help to build a style around that. Generally people become most angry over extended defensive play, so if you wanted to influence people you could see how best to play extended defense and what to hit someone with specifically that could frustrate them or do so over time. In the end, you can obviously feel when you have the emotional advantage, and maintaining it is important. It changes how people play positions and that is worth noting. But making those states your goal and trying to force them, at least at first, is kind of counter intuitive to me. So I hope this answers the question some. Let me know

Your point about building a playstyle in service of some higher order objective leads me in a direction to the connection between interactions and gameplans, which I’ve been trying to understand for a while. You mentioned one motive for warranting a certain gameplan (patience testing using extended defense) — what are other commonly identified motives used by good players? As Marth, when I fight say a top 100 or similarly skilled Fox, it’s hard for me to understand what they want in the neutral; at times it feels like they just try to RPS me to death. I feel like I really ever take over games against aforementioned good players when they are either bad at the MU specifically (get easily baited/fail execution tests/aren’t doing every mixup) or their tilt snowballs (become predictable).

I like what you say about a priori playing the game/MU well, since, yes, anything psychological is going to be a reaction to that. Moreover, in the case of having unambiguous emotional advantage, I feel like you should play it by accounting for potential tilt gameplay while still playing well (i.e. retain risk-reward management). In other words I don’t think you should risk compromising yourself just because they are. At the same time, I don’t want to over-account for tilt gameplay, since that can be used against me, so finding that balance is still not so clear. What exactly defines tilt gameplay and where it shows up is also a little unclear to me.

There’s the obvious tilt gameplay which manifests in extremes (unambiguous defense or aggression), but I feel like more minor tilt reactions can still come and go quickly (affects a single interaction but maybe not their gameplay overall). Do you think psychological information is more relevant in high pressure situations? And perhaps one may suppose that generally the more even (or ambiguous) emotional advantage is, the more you play to the normal gameplan?

 

[Dr Peepee]

pp, how should I be playing the mixup situation where I land very close to my opponent in unreactable range?

https://youtu.be/t85nqn6kaxs?t=60 for example
https://youtu.be/t85nqn6kaxs?t=107 2nd time this situation happened (this dtilt was supposed to beat him running at me after I landed, and I'm surprised it worked, cause it seemed like he planned on jumping in instead of running, I definitely got really lucky there, which is what scares me lol)

the way I currently think about it is to observe what my opponent will go for by moving away and priming defense out of that, and then the next time I am put in that situation I can adapt to that and counter it (dtilt in place, aerial, etc.). What concerns me is that I find myself guessing more than confirming (see above), and I want to see what I can change to improve at fighting in these situations.

vs luigi, how should I be interacting with his down b? I've been getting hit by it so many times when it's done out of me throwing him or juggling him, and I always either get hit before I can put a move out, or if I try to stuff it I'll clank with one of the hits if not outright missing it.

examples
https://youtu.be/AA9WlxuvrGE?t=314
https://youtu.be/AA9WlxuvrGE?t=412 (he was able to jab me after we clanked, which I fortunately cc shielded)
https://youtu.be/AA9WlxuvrGE?t=854

another question vs luigi is how do I deal with the falling/dj fireball that luigi throws right above the ledge when he's recovering? I don't know if I should go for ledge early when he's coming down since he could just dj over me and get onstage.

example
https://youtu.be/AA9WlxuvrGE?t=212

Well, because you swung forward some, it made you susceptible to having to guess. The thing is that even after that Fair you could jump and early or mid Fair relatively safely because Fox started fairly far away from you, and jumped in only as he saw you would land. So you could waveland back for space if you wanted. Basically I think it's the plays you make before he gets there that are getting you. But okay, assuming you wind up there then yeah you may have to guess more. WD back, dash away, retreating rising Fair, dash through, shield....are all going to be your main options. So just mix those up.

Just FF Fair vs that first cyclone.
You can just Fair him out of the air there usually, or hold down as you land if you're worried about it I guess. Landing in range to Dtilt his landing also helps you Dtilt/Fair his downB startup.
Just Fair again or WD shorter length to hit that Fsmash I guess, but it doesn't remotely combo out of Bair there as you can see.

You can just runoff Fair him or WD off Bair him there.

Your point about building a playstyle in service of some higher order objective leads me in a direction to the connection between interactions and gameplans, which I’ve been trying to understand for a while. You mentioned one motive for warranting a certain gameplan (patience testing using extended defense) — what are other commonly identified motives used by good players? As Marth, when I fight say a top 100 or similarly skilled Fox, it’s hard for me to understand what they want in the neutral; at times it feels like they just try to RPS me to death. I feel like I really ever take over games against aforementioned good players when they are either bad at the MU specifically (get easily baited/fail execution tests/aren’t doing every mixup) or their tilt snowballs (become predictable).

I like what you say about a priori playing the game/MU well, since, yes, anything psychological is going to be a reaction to that. Moreover, in the case of having unambiguous emotional advantage, I feel like you should play it by accounting for potential tilt gameplay while still playing well (i.e. retain risk-reward management). In other words I don’t think you should risk compromising yourself just because they are. At the same time, I don’t want to over-account for tilt gameplay, since that can be used against me, so finding that balance is still not so clear. What exactly defines tilt gameplay and where it shows up is also a little unclear to me.

There’s the obvious tilt gameplay which manifests in extremes (unambiguous defense or aggression), but I feel like more minor tilt reactions can still come and go quickly (affects a single interaction but maybe not their gameplay overall). Do you think psychological information is more relevant in high pressure situations? And perhaps one may suppose that generally the more even (or ambiguous) emotional advantage is, the more you play to the normal gameplan?

Patience testing tends to be the main thing people use that's clearly a deviation from normal, but some others try to overwhelm with offense or with buttons. Some people adapt less because they are trying to do what should "always" be right, while others can be more flexible trying to outplay their opponent and worrying less about the matchup. I'm not sure if this is what you want or not. Vs the Fox you mention, some people do just want to RPS all of the time. It can help to talk to people who play this way and get their perspective, but some people legitimately believe it is best.

Yes, it is more likely that in more tense/important interactions that psychological weakness can show up. Minor tilts are not always punishable and therefore not something you can usually play for. With experience, you can perhaps expect them to show up more, but even if you can't get a direct punish if you can keep advantage that can be good. For example, maybe someone does a very bad spotdodge you wouldn't expect, but if you maintain pressure then they don't get an easy reset from it. The way I always considered it was that I would play like normal, and when tense moments set in people would usually get more defensive or be more antsy even if they didn't always attack the moment they felt tense. So it could just make my normal gameplan more effective.

 

[Kotastic]

Aside from juggling Peach to like 150+ except when you somehow get them to DI in a Ken combo or something, do you think avenues of reasonable kill ranges (and by reasonable I mean 80-90 lol) is by landing tipper reads when Peach is cornered?

I know you've mentioned edgeguarding as an avenue of killing Peach but tbh I'm not sure how it's a consistent setup especially if she's high or if she's somewhat low where she has her float + DJ. The only guaranteed way I know how to edgeguard peach is when her only option is to up-b to ledge. Otherwise, even her parasol float alone is tricky for me to reactionary edgeguard effectively.

Killing her at 150+ is inevitable at least once per stock but it's not sustainable to do all the time I'm thinking.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Tippering cornered Peach is not that reliable iirc but it can be made slightly reliable. I just think you shouldn't go for it much when you can just edgeguard, but it's okay to go for it occasionally.

I believe the edgeguarding work has mostly all been done for you already. M2K's Summit win vs Armada he put all of it together iirc, so you may benefit from analyzing that. I don't remember all of the routes personally.

As for when she goes high, that can still make for easier juggles so it's fine too but of course more difficult than regular edgeguarding. %150+ kills a stock is extra work you shouldn't have to do now I believe.

 

[Kotastic]

To clarify, I'm including when Peach is on the ledge as part of her being cornered. I think it is feasible to time a tipper fsmash on her regular getup, and fake a dash grab --> WD back tipper fsmash if she buffers spotdodge if I feel like my timing is off. Plus her being in the corner in general I feel like chances of landing a tipper is decent.

Why would her going high make for easier juggles? I also tend to get tricked up by DJ landing fair when trying to shark her landing.

Also when Marth, Falcon, Falco, and Fox do a runoff aerial from platform, do you punish on reaction with pivot grab or read it. It feels tough especially on Marth to punish runoff aerial straight up.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Oh I'm not sure how reliable tippering her getup is since it can seem similar to GUA and roll either over or under 100% I forget, but that's great if you can do it.

If she goes high, she can't often float to the center of the level, meaning she can't mix you up in the most difficult way. This helps your Fair. Also it means that she has burned one of her biggest options already. And you mean her DJC'ing?

Sometimes you can, sometimes you can't. Usually you can't unless relatively primed and maybe they don't always do lowest aerial and you're spaced perfectly for it. So I would say practice/test it out if you need to but I wouldn't recommend trying to punish it outright without doing so.

 

[Kotastic]

Do you let Peach land towards the corner or do you try punishing all her drifts? Also yeah I mean her DJC.

So you typically don't try to punish runoff aerial outright? If so, how?

 

[Dr Peepee]

You can usually punish her no matter what, but if you want to let her wind up in a bad position that's okay I guess. And for DJC, yeah that might help her get down but if she's coming from an angle she shouldn't be able to get too much off of it or land in a bad position at best I guess.

I don't think I punish runoff aerial in any matchup usually iirc. Sometimes if I think they will do it though I will Dtilt it or I'll set up Fair on landing lag. If I'm timing tight grabs occasionally I will intercept any approaches afterward for Sheik/Marth and often any attacks afterward so I encourage dash back which is fine. Falco I don't care if he does aerial because him not lasering is good and easy to space on. Falcon you can kinda play like Marth/Sheik, and Fox is the hardest to react to and what he can do afterward but I think it maaayyy be actually grabbable sometimes I forget. Anyway when you can't grab Fox then Dtilt and Fair are good.

 

[Zorcey]

What do you believe are effective strategies for playing such that you react to what you can, but don’t slow down your play so much that it’s too conscious/you miss opportunities? Do you think drilling a situation in which you have to react is the way to deal with this concern?

In thinking about my self-trust when it comes to the game, I’ve realized that I really don’t trust myself to react in many situations, and this is one of the reasons my play becomes overly conscious most of the time. I’m not sure what to do with this information yet.

 

[maxono1]

If she goes high, she can't often float to the center of the level, meaning she can't mix you up in the most difficult way. This helps your Fair. Also it means that she has burned one of her biggest options already. And you mean her DJC'ing?
.

why cant she float to the center of the level? because she gives you time to go to top plat when going high? or another reason?

also could you give me a tip as to why approaching grab is so useful in the fox mu to intercept him? is it because of his fast attacks that allow him to commit very late and keep his approach ambiguous about whether he is going to commit or not which would lead to marth dashing back all the time?

 

[Dr Peepee]

What do you believe are effective strategies for playing such that you react to what you can, but don’t slow down your play so much that it’s too conscious/you miss opportunities? Do you think drilling a situation in which you have to react is the way to deal with this concern?

In thinking about my self-trust when it comes to the game, I’ve realized that I really don’t trust myself to react in many situations, and this is one of the reasons my play becomes overly conscious most of the time. I’m not sure what to do with this information yet.

Somewhat, but it would only work if you also drilled alternatives to that situation. And then ideally if you practiced playing neutral only so that you didn't feel pressure adapting there. Shadowboxing will help with idea generation and also adapting in a high-pressure environment you create mentally so it is worth using as well.

However, it may be the case that you may not trust your decision making in general, which would restrict you to an extent regardless of effective practice. In this case you'd want to build your confidence in yourself generally, and also find out why you feel unconfident and make peace with that. Not saying this is true or not, but it is worth considering.

why cant she float to the center of the level? because she gives you time to go to top plat when going high? or another reason?

also could you give me a tip as to why approaching grab is so useful in the fox mu to intercept him? is it because of his fast attacks that allow him to commit very late and keep his approach ambiguous about whether he is going to commit or not which would lead to marth dashing back all the time?

She often just can't float high enough or long enough to get to that point.

It's because his range is smaller on his moves so he has to get closer, and also because he often has to intercept dash back or you in stand to punish you. So if you come forward instead you intercept him. I wouldn't recommend doing this all of the time, but that does explain when to use it.

 

[Kotastic]

What do you think about nair vs puff's sh level?

Catch me wherever my assessment is off, but I feel like "juggling" puff is all about capitalizing positioning, making soft reads of their habits, and making a 50/50 read on their in or out drift. The more i exhaust puff's jumps, the most likely i'll catch her drift. The soft read is assuming that they'll jump at least once if they have multiple. My positioning that increases the chance of juggles is how close I am to her relative to my initial dash length. Yet despite all of these in play, I still feel like it's not guaranteed to say, shark puff compared to sheik or marth when she has such excellent drift. I also feel like swatting her is like...meh? I sometimes feel like it's even a net negative if i'm putting her past pivot fsmash percent since if I fail to kill with uptilt/ftilt/fsmash, it's a long arduous interactions to kill her more.

I feel like Marth is supposed to dictate the pace of the puff mu, but I'm not really sure how to do it.

I also feel extremely flustered when I'm walled with her bairs and not sure what to think about in those scenarios.

I'm also not sure how to effectively take space vs her.

I also feel like dash grab is ultimately a gimmick but Zain has so much success with it that I'm not sure what to think about that tool.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I think Nair'ing into Puff is actually good, but you need to do it with very good timing and spacing. I like doing it after she has just landed and I'm moving into her. The first swing beats immediate Bair, and the second swing can beat a later Bair and also beat CC/pressure shield. So it does a lot, but it does lose to DA/Fsmash/her making you misspace or your own error there. Mixing that with fakes and with Dtilt and grab is not bad, though all of it can lose to her backing up, which isn't the worst but can make it hard to know when to go in.

Swatting her, if she doesn't regain jumps, makes it easier to hit her again. Which makes it easier to continually hit her, edgeguard her, grab her, etc. Yes it is not so guaranteed as with other characters, but I think by optimizing and getting better and better at the setups you do have and getting past the first 2-3 jumps reliably, you make things far easier for yourself. The getting past tipper kill is an issue for sure, and sometimes, especially on DL, I could understand controlling her down to the ground and playing a grab mixup might feel better. I personally alternate between that sort of play and going for the edgeguard(and kill off the top on other levels, though FH/DJ Uair kills not so terribly on DL from top platform), that way they don't feel they can be safe either way.

Marth's dash helps him dodge Bair when he's closer, so standing still is often an issue for him here. Getting closer then sometimes dashing out can help her swing into you or pressure her for not doing so.

That's how I feel about dash grab too. Until Puff players adapt though, might as well abuse it. Mix with Dtilt/SH when getting closer sometimes if you worry about becoming predictable/it gets punished.

 

[Zorcey]

Do you believe you should platform techchase Falcon much differently than spacies, other than just accounting for different knockdown and slideoff percents? If so, what do you think the major differences should be?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Uhhh I think it's pretty similar now if you account for percent differences and weight.

 

[maxono1]

Do you think finding out the reaction points of your opponent in neutral is important?
i thought of it today and i think it would help me a lot when trying to trick my opponent

 

[Dr Peepee]

Yeah I do.

 

[Zorcey]

It feels hard to figure out at what point in your action an opponent is reacting to it though. Do you think you just develop a sense for it, or do you have a method?

Also, when you use more subtle movements or even swings, do you think it's reasonable to expect an opponent to always take notice? Does it depend on their skill level?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Skill level, familiarity, how taxed they are, how obvious the cue is, what they choose to react with....these things are all factors. Some people may react but choose to wait or choose to do something very small or something that covers many things as a result. Some people may choose to do something but simply wait until you do what you do to do it. It is complicated, which is why I always suggest studying one factor at a time and ensuring you can get some type of consistent reaction vs different players to be sure of your tactics.

 

[Zorcey]

What are some things you try to keep in mind against a player who waits until they see you do something to commit? I try to mess with my visual cues by using a lot of ELs and moving in without attacking or heavily delaying it, but I feel like I'm working at the "outplay" level here rather than abusing Marth's strengths (and knowing how to do that should come first?). I'm not sure how much of a concern this is, but it's something I've been thinking about when trying to identify types of players.

Not sure how clear the question is, but I think what I'm wondering is how to take the player-based stuff like observing common options and common responses to my tools and balancing it with what Marth's main gameplan in a matchup should be.

 

[Dr Peepee]

It depends on matchup somewhat. If Doc is standing still it becomes pretty easy to just get into position to Fair/Dtilt without him intercepting, but much harder if Fox does it. Puff could struggle somewhat similarly doing this as she cannot reposition if she realizes she's getting into a bad spot too late, etc.

Marth should be denying other characters the chance to play as much as possible, but in more even higher tier matchups he has to play the opponent in addition to the game more. So do not feel bad about having to do that some. There's no need to overdo it though. You might choose to wait as well, or push into a closer position that forces them to move or risk letting Marth fully set up on them. In both cases you can play to Marth's strengths, his range primarily, but you also figure out how you want to abuse the character best given what situation is before you. Your goal of getting a grab or Fair'ing them out of the air or getting close and outspacing them has not changed, only the way you achieve those things. The actual concern is overcomplicating where you multi fake and feel you have to every time, or you don't set up deep enough coverage and tunnel vision on whatever they did last or whatever you hope they will do. That is where outplaying can be excessive.

Does this make sense?

 

[Zorcey]

It makes sense overall, but I have a few questions about it:

I used to hear that phrase, "don't let them play" a lot when I was new to the game and reading all the Marth literature scattered over the internet. I think it means denying the opponent counterplay options whenever you can, but why does this apply to Marth more than any other good character? Couldn't you say it's just an important objective of Melee?

I understand how you can play to the strength of Marth's range once you have set up on an opponent, but as I'm moving in to do so I'm not, right? Unless I am to the extent that I'm threatening with the fact that my range will be very scary once I get into position, and that threat will force a response of some kind? Am I on the right track here?

The concerns you mention actually all apply to me lol... Do you have advice for keeping it simple with regards to playing with your intention?

Tunnel visioning on what they did last/what I hope they will do in a position is a biiig problem for me. But how do I balance being primed for a habit and keeping an open mind so I can react? (I think this tunnel visioning thing may be linked to my trust/confidence issues in the game, if that's useful information?)

Merry Christmas PP, and same to all you other Marth players <3

 

[Dr Peepee]

Not letting them play applies to Marth more often because his moves are big AND disjointed which means they can't easily be contested. Sheik can do similar things, but Marth is the best at this. It also is a good reminder to not go for extra outplays....in other words a good guiding philosophy. Imagine Marth sitting at tipper Dtilt range and you're both standing there. Unless you're also Marth, you must be scared as the other character. This is why you must be.

What you say is largely correct. Let's not forget that Marth can also counterattack extremely well and dodge quite well, so while we may want to get into that ideal position, we should also recognize that people may want to prevent us from getting there by intercepting us. We should be prepared for them attacking, defending, waiting, or repositioning on our way in. In general, people act as you move in because they are forced to unless they want to be put into an unreactable place(but also let you set up). This doesn't mean you need to rush people down, but it does inform how offense and defense work together regardless of your strategy.

The game is very complicated, and especially so until you get a better understanding of these concepts, so that's fine if this happens. But there are still things you can do. Doing simple good things that still leave you open to them going in a few different directions always help. Rather than going into that, it might be better to say you can expect them to do one thing, but still stay open to any other options. Analysis may help with this, or you may simply want to practice this in matches. Thinking of it, it's a bit like tech chasing where you may expect a certain option but need to remain open to the others.

You may benefit from relaxation. It's something I used to harp on that I still think is a meaningful recommendation. Tension can reduce focus and blood flow and limit your scope of what is possible. Relieving that can be done in many many ways. Deep breaths are always going to be useful if they are not rushed, and any stretching and exercise and meditation may also help. That emotional tension is also very important to handle, and you may benefit from more sentence completion if you have not done that so much lately. You may have grown and something new wants to be revealed. It's part of being human and playing the game.



Merry Christmas all, and let's have a wonderful new year full of growth <33

 

[Kotastic]

How would you punish falcon's slight approach nair? I've been doing whiff punish DA but I'm wondering if there's better options since pivot grabbing it seems hard.

How do you approach when icies continually do their blizzard iceblock wall? Akin to this: https://youtu.be/zg54hUJLoTA?t=255
I feel like I have to politely wait for them to stop doing it in order to get in.

Is jumping vs someone worth it if they're reacting to your jump with an immediate attack or do you think doing a mid-fair timing is a viable mixup as opposed to staying grounded? I find this the most apparent when I'm cornering someone that's not shielding vs. my jump.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Fair'ing it is pretty good, and you can probably side B or Fsmash it. Nair may work if you start around when he does?

So when the blizzard stops that's when you get to try something. You can Nair/Fair in those situations often. Sometimes you can Dtilt and it can trade with blizzard startup which is handy. Jabbing the ice block or short hopping over to get ready to hit them or patrolling space is fine otherwise.

If they react to your jump with an attack, why not jump then drift back and Fair? But yes, mid Fairs should work too in many cases. It depends on matchup and percent spacing and such of course.

 

[Kotastic]

For them reacting to my jump, what about fox reacting with upsmash and marth reacting with fsmash?

 

[Dr Peepee]

If Marth Fsmashes, then it may not have been a great spot to jump, or you may be able to drift in and Fair his arm sometimes? I think I prefer jumping a bit inside Fsmash range to encourage weaker hits and also make them consider the option less iirc. But I don't think it's an easy reaction, so if you think they will go for it you can early airdodge back or DJ I guess, maybe drift back if you're right in tipper range lol. I personally just accept that risk in my life and know they can't stand still vs Marth that often.

For Fox Usmash, you can also mid height swing and beat that, but I don't think Fox will go for that too often due to how close he needs to be to get it. If he does, then I suggest changing your jump spacing and timing up more and also doing different stuff besides jumping in those spots.

 

[Zorcey]

https://youtu.be/DZq_JB1A7ZY?t=209 this seems like a very flowcharted edgeguard, but I'm not sure what informed your decision to DJ back Fair here, because I think it would have lost if Sheik had done DJ SS or DJ Fair (not sure about the latter because Marth's hurtbox gets tucked back). It looked like you were going to runoff Fair (which would have won, though I'm uncertain how good the hit is at 33%) so I was wondering what you're thinking about after you Fthrow Sheik here (because the option DID work). Would you recommend this DJ back Fair after Fthrowing her offstage (at this percent or otherwise)?

In general when Marth Fthrows Sheik offstage at this distance from the ledge, how much do Marth's mixups change with percent and DI? Is there a percent threshold where you would add new options/drop others? If Sheik DIs far away from the ledge, how does that affect your decision in this position?

Do you think it's accurate to say that when edgeguarding Sheik and Marth off Fthrow/Dthrow you can treat them similarly (because of their relatively close weight and fall speed)? I notice that similar options seem to work on both, so I guess I'm asking what you think are significant differences to keep in mind.