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Dr Peepee

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Dtilt doesn't confirm to grab normally, so that in itself is a risky play in my view. If you can land a second, that's pretty good to me since that's better stage positioning and damage that helps your Uthrow followups.

If you did grab, you could go for stuff that covers tech in place/no tech/tech roll in to help give yourself some kind of advantage no matter what happens sometimes and then occasionally mix up with tipper Fsmash on their tech away I guess. You could perhaps tipper them out of Dtilt if they run back in too, or something similar I guess.
 

AirFair

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I have some questions about how to use mid/late fairs properly against fox

when thinking of how best to zone vs him, I'm often worried about how his speed seems to give him more of an advantage in choosing when to attack me. If I sh in place from TR and he runs in, I feel like I'm just letting him get closer to me for free since he can just wait around the range of the fair I'm threatening and just go in right after when I'm much more likely to retreat than try and cover one of his possible attacks.

another thing is that if he just runs up and shields so I tipper the fair, I don't understand how to capitalize off that. Do I just prime a pivot fair out of dashing away to beat wd oos?

a separate question about that last situation, should I be looking to empty land grab him to adapt to him running up and shielding?
 

Dr Peepee

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Sounds like you need to swing less. Less is more let's not forget. Swinging when he expects Fair messes up his timing, and also gives you frames to react since you're not in Fair lag plus messing up his reactions. This does help with empty land grab as well.

If he runs up and shields a tipper Fair, you can grab his WD OOS into you, or you can dash/SH again and hit him, or you can hold down to Dtilt. Whatever is comfortable for you. The point is that you have cut off jumps and slowed his momentum here so this can work for you.
 

Kotastic

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When guessing when someone is about to jump out of shield from corner, is it worth to try going for FF AC nair instead of rising fair? If not, how can I control that space better with someone that's not sitting in shield very long?

What are your thoughts of Marths trying to dash dance --> shield as an integral part of their defense vs Fox? I've seen M2K and Zain use this quite a bit to a large success since many Foxes try to dtilt, upsmash, DA, and running waveshine, in which Marth can grab or Dair OoS for a solid tech chase scenario. Do you believe that this is something worth exploiting more out of dash back?
 

Dr Peepee

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If you're close enough to hit jump oos, then sure. But often being that close can lead to you getting hit back, since you need to be close enough they can't jump over Nair. I prefer Fair. Fair covers jumps at a slightly farther spacing and you can still SH and react if they jump or just empty land/late swing if they don't.

I'm not a fan of Marth's shield, because if you're wrong or even somewhat wrong you're shielding as Marth. Higher percents when they will go for those moves it can be a little better, but I do not prefer it. I'd say occasional mixup is best so that way they aren't likely to counter it, are more likely to do something that loses to it(if you've scouted correctly), and won't react well to it if you're wrong.
 

Kotastic

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By jump, I was also lumping that with WD in OoS. Do you still believe fair would be better despite the possibility of holding down and it being harder to react to? Nair seems to cover more WD in timings and typically beats holding down.
 

Dr Peepee

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So long as you don't believe they will WD in right when you jump, you are better off with Fair generally I believe. ASDI down is not as scary as CC to me. However, you can also slight drift back if you suspect it. Alternatively, if you don't expect much they will do that Nair could moreso struggle with, then of course using Nair is much more okay.
 

Kotastic

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So I know you're an advocate of fair when the opponent is cornered, but do you think the priorities should shift a bit when cornering Fox? Grab gets so much that I feel like that should be my primary threat when cornering a fox and fairing his FH/OoS options secondarily.
 

Zorcey

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Do you believe that, during the lag of a swing, you have time to confirm how the opponent responds to the swing itself? (In other words, if I Rising Fair, do you think I can process how my opponent is responding to me being in lag BEFORE I pick my option after landing/the next interaction takes place?) This is assuming they’re not close enough to punish me directly for the swing, but I’m not sure how much it varies with spacing beyond that. How far do you think you need to be to do this?

I’m currently trying to figure the points in my play where I should be observing and absorbing how my opponent is responding to particular tools, but it’s challenging. Do you think it’s reasonable to observe out of every dash and swing, or is that too much information? Right now it slows me down a lot, but I’m not sure if I should expect to build speed at it with time.
 

Dr Peepee

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In a given position, it can be easier or harder. So I can't say it so simply. But to do it anyway, I'd say you can usually confirm during Fair what they are doing if they are one bowser roll away from your Fair. Bowser rolls are good measurement.

I think you can generally react though, it's a fairly laggy move. It's just hard to be sure/set yourself up if they're really close. If you feel uncomfortable with that, just extend the range and practice until you feel comfortable, then slowly decrease that range as you can.
 

Sacredtwin11

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How do you extend early percent punishes vs falcons who get the slide di to edge on techchases? The obvious solution is to throw them away from the edge unless you're right up next to it where you can set up a gimp mixup, but whenever I try to bthrow or dthrow techchase I'm a lot more prone to being slow and getting jabbed or raptor boosted or rolled away from.
 

Kaoak

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Do you generally react to spot dodge against Spacies/Sheik when pressuring shield / tech chasing, or do you read it? From your experience do you think it is feasible to react consistently to spot dodge? It can be hard to tell whether a player I'm watching has reacted to or read the spot dodge but I find spot dodge is really effective as a defensive/panic tool against my Marth, while much less effective against top Marths, as when I try to react I usually get shined, double spot dodged or spot dodge rolled, but Marths such as Zain seem to flawlessly react or read the spot dodge almost every time.

GENERAL INFORMATION if this helps anyone reading this: JC grab takes at minimum 8 frames + at least 1 frame to dash forwards so usually 9 frames bare minimum. Fox is actionable and can shine as soon as frame 24 after beginning a spot dodge given the spot dodge is buffered and the Fox shields for 1 frame, Fox can double spot dodge as soon as frame 26 given 1 frame of shield for a buffered spot dodge. The sound queue for Fox's spot dodge also comes out on frame 2, subtracting 1 frame from your reaction time. This gives you generally between 13-15 frames to react given a frame perfect DD grab. For comparison, reacting to tech in place gives 17-19 frames but lacks an audio queue (actionable frame 27, frame 29 for spot dodge). Your reaction time will also be reduced by input lag, which is typically between 3 and 5 frames.
figured id repost this since it seems u mightve missed it
 
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Agrathor3

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Hey PP I've been struggling dealing with a particular fox at my local basically my problem is I lose neutral and then get combod into a waveshine and grabbed then the up throw uair chain ensues (that's not the worst problem like I can practice teching the shine and grind my smash di's for the uairs) but the way he beats me in neutral is he weaves just in and out of my range using his DD, wave dashes and empty hops into waveland either toward me or away and just waits for me to swing and miss or he shields/cc my arial (if I swing trying to catch him jumping into my range) if I catch him dding a bit much with a run cancel dtilt I can usually apply corner pressure and eventually take the stock if I play the corner game well and if I pivot grab his running shines then I'm golden. My problem lies with being unable to read or guess if he is just baiting me with shorthops and wavelands or if he is going to hard commit and I'm unsure of how to tell when he will actually commit to the arial or if I'm just going to get baited into swinging (if I start a dd to keep my space and try and bait his approach then he either just shoots his double lasers at range or keeps doing what he was doing but also mixes in very over shot nairs which I get scared to cover because if I whiff I get punished hard and shielding is really weak with marth so I dont want to do that. What other options do I have in this situation? (for ease of visualization I'm imaging the situation occurring in center stage with neither player having an advantage but if you need more specifics I'll do my best to supply them) Thanks!
 

Dr Peepee

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figured id repost this since it seems u mightve missed it
I can usually react, but the setup matters. Zain dashing back or in then out again can see if they spotdodged or not and then hit JC grab all at once if he sees it. Otherwise he waits. It's a good strategy. But if your setup is weak/nonexistant then it's not reliable. And even with a good setup, there are escapes. So it's complicated. But setups help is the main thing.

Hey PP I've been struggling dealing with a particular fox at my local basically my problem is I lose neutral and then get combod into a waveshine and grabbed then the up throw uair chain ensues (that's not the worst problem like I can practice teching the shine and grind my smash di's for the uairs) but the way he beats me in neutral is he weaves just in and out of my range using his DD, wave dashes and empty hops into waveland either toward me or away and just waits for me to swing and miss or he shields/cc my arial (if I swing trying to catch him jumping into my range) if I catch him dding a bit much with a run cancel dtilt I can usually apply corner pressure and eventually take the stock if I play the corner game well and if I pivot grab his running shines then I'm golden. My problem lies with being unable to read or guess if he is just baiting me with shorthops and wavelands or if he is going to hard commit and I'm unsure of how to tell when he will actually commit to the arial or if I'm just going to get baited into swinging (if I start a dd to keep my space and try and bait his approach then he either just shoots his double lasers at range or keeps doing what he was doing but also mixes in very over shot nairs which I get scared to cover because if I whiff I get punished hard and shielding is really weak with marth so I dont want to do that. What other options do I have in this situation? (for ease of visualization I'm imaging the situation occurring in center stage with neither player having an advantage but if you need more specifics I'll do my best to supply them) Thanks!
Run forward retreating rising Fair will beat any approaches he does, and this will help open you up to move forward to pressure. You can also jump outside the edge of his Nair if you like, and then he can't hit you, or you can move back if you're slightly inside it with SH back. Move closer vs his lasers, but no need to always go all in. The retreating Fair can help sometimes. There are a lot of things in this, so test some of it out and the mixups, such as when you need to swing or not. Try some of that out and see how it feels.
 

Agrathor3

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Okay sounds good I'll test those options and see how it goes. So when I'm doing the run up fadeback fair how far away from fox should I be when starting the move? If I'm doing those fairs would it be a good idea to do the double fair as a mixup if he approaches after the initial fair or is it better to fastfall/waveland out of it?
 

Ladder

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Hi pp, I was wondering how you and others pivot regrab no DI on fd against spacies from 20-34 percent. I used to always do a dash dance pivot and then jump cancel grab, but lately people have been telling me this is too slow and fox and falco can jump out at those percents. does this mean I have to empty pivot or do a pivot without a jump cancel like how do a pivot fsmash (I think this is a 1 frame window).
 

Agrathor3

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Hi pp, I was wondering how you and others pivot regrab no DI on fd against spacies from 20-34 percent. I used to always do a dash dance pivot and then jump cancel grab, but lately people have been telling me this is too slow and fox and falco can jump out at those percents. does this mean I have to empty pivot or do a pivot without a jump cancel like how do a pivot fsmash (I think this is a 1 frame window).
If the fox is 16% or higher you have to do the pivot to cover slight DI. And doing a pivot JC grab makes it very slightly slower so if the fox wiggle out shines he can shine you if you're not doing the true pivot grab although it really is difficult for the fox to do, basically frame perfect but I've seen people do it. Doing the normal pivot grab (regardless of whether you empty pivot grab or doing the pivot grab like with fsmash although I much prefer to do the empty pivot it feels more consistent for me) doing it without the jump cancel makes it so that they can't shine or jump out. Sorry I know you asked PP but the chaingrab on fox and falco is my most practiced tech so I figured I'd answer XD
 

Dr Peepee

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Okay sounds good I'll test those options and see how it goes. So when I'm doing the run up fadeback fair how far away from fox should I be when starting the move? If I'm doing those fairs would it be a good idea to do the double fair as a mixup if he approaches after the initial fair or is it better to fastfall/waveland out of it?
When you start the Fair, you can be relatively close. It's best to test it to see the spacing. You generally won't need to double Fair much, but if he does challenge some then go for it. Empty land will give you more frames and help you get out Dtilt or something for example.
 

Agrathor3

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Hey PP in some sets like in your set vs leffen apex 2015 (16:37 in the vgbootcamp video of that set I'm on my phone and can't get a link sorry) you do a movement option that looks like a wavedash back into instant dash forward which makes marth almost seem to freeze in his dash animation is there a name for that tech? And how do you utilize it in game? It looked so slick I want to learn how to do it and how to start implementing it.

Also after messing around with the run up fairs and mixing them with empty hops/sh wland back and changing the timing/spacing on my fair I've gotten a lot of mileage baiting him into approaching unsafely so thanks for the advice it was really helpful.
 
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Kotastic

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Aside from cactuar dash, is there other fancy movement tricks Marth can utilize that looks tricky to the eye?

If you think rising fair should be used to be primed vs Sheik's sh (fair) as I'm dashing forward, how would you combat FH then? I feel like it's always tricky to catch sheik at that height and the mixups associated with it.

Hard to explain this in words, but I feel like it's gotten so much harder to juggle sheik without getting reversaled. The new technology sheiks are bringing is spamming their fair in lower percent/barely out of hitstun if I'm not precise enough, airdodging close to platforms, and drifting away when it looks like they'll drift in. Other annoyances involves CC'ing my tipper Fairs and dtilts in place to grab at low percents (feels fraudulent), being ever so annoying by the ledge which they inevitably win the mixup, and just being afraid for my life once I'm at knockdown percents. Meanwhile, Sheiks are finding more and more ways to punish Marth harder which is quite frustrating. I think I've been playing the mu poorly these past couple months really and I'm looking to restructure everything.

As for juggling sheik, do you think a million upairs is the way to go or try going for fairs at like past 50? It's so exhausting juggling sheik forever since she's not exactly easy to indefinitely juggle.

How do you go about ledgetrapping Peach? It doesn't seem like you follow a hard flowchart like m2k but rather 80/20 situations, but I'm not sure if you would still agree with that.

I feel like I'm getting to the point where I'm not getting as excited thinking about melee improvement. It just feels exhausting, partly because rn I have a very busy schedule with work, school, and other Melee projects such as TO'ing. I know many things I need to work on, but It takes so much commitment and dedication to improve. Lowkey I'm kind of dreading the work. Not sure what the solution here is.
 

Dr Peepee

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DJ seems to have that effect to an extent, but Cactus dash is the most jarring.

If Sheik FHs vs you, then your dash in should be able to get under her pretty quickly, which is good for you. You may not always be able to hit her as she rises, but you can be in amazing position to Uair/Fair as she falls. You can go under needles if that's a concern.

I can't speak to the juggles because that is complicated. You'll need to watch more closely and set yourself up well. Either practice hitting those tight timings on the Fair or wait it out sometimes. If you see them crouch, then I would advise against Fair'ing it or doing a super late Fair at least I guess. Dtilt should be safe. but if you always do a set play after hitting that then that may be your issue.

Yeah you need to build her to mid percent then start looking for Fairs. Get the kill, don't overcomplicate. Can't always do this, but you probably can more than you think.

Either method is fine. Standing just outside of her GUA and waiting is pretty easy.

You need to make Melee fun again. Switch up the way you train, take things a bit easier sometimes, play other characters, take time for yourself, etc. You know the correct feeling, so look for ways to find it again. Don't burn yourself out, that won't do you any good.
 

Agrathor3

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Lol I'm just going to become a cactus I play green marth and utilize thousand needles vs floaties as well as the cactuar dash (run cancel into dashing) and the cactus dash that I have just learned XD

This is for kotastic but a couple tricky movement options that I like is dashing away from someone and just as you enter run doing a wd back turnaround dtilt <----- I use it to make someone think that I'm giving space and then attack them for trying to take the space I was "giving" them. I also really enjoy putting someone in the corner then starting a quick dash dance into a dash back empty pivot and then waiting and pivot grabbing them or covering the jump to platform when they try and get out of the corner or similarly hitting someone's shield with a low tipper fair then doing a empty pivot back followed by a large dash back pivot into grabbing their flubbed approach and if they give space you can just claim what they give. And the last cool thing is doing the cactus dash into a dash back pivot whatever you want or you can mix it up by doing the same dashback but instead you do the wd back turnaround into fair or dtilt or grab really whatever you want to do
 

Zorcey

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You've said before that you can move or zone against Sheik, but that you have to be closer to zone (I figure because Sheik doesn't really jump in on her approaches like FFers/putting yourself in lag when she's far away gives her important space or gets you Needle'd/etc). But I don't understand the benefits of zoning/jumping when I'm closer either, like outside Sheik tilt range. It feels riskier than staying grounded, and Dtilt in place or DD grabbing a whiffed Ftilt or DA give decent to good reward. Sometimes I retreating Fair or Nair in place in this space, but I'm not sure that either of these are advisable for various reasons. Could you explain your thought process behind choosing to zone as opposed to moving against Sheik?

I know that jump is at least important for beating Sheik's aerials, since they're very difficult to punish on landing. But can jump be effective against her grounded options?
 

Dr Peepee

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Yeah because jump polices any forward movement she can do like walk Ftilt and often DA/BG. It won't always work vs her aerials depending on things, but you being in the air first can matter more vs those too. Once you have stopped her from moving in, you can drift in with aerials more, or walk in Dtilt yourself, or open up more movement.
 

Zorcey

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But doesn’t Dtilt offer the same advantages here, also discouraging Sheik from moving forward? So would you only opt for jumping when you can’t Dtilt (because you’re in a dash or out of range etc.), or is there some distinct advantage to jumping and threatening aerials? What do they communicate and/or discourage that Dtilt wouldn’t?
 

Kotastic

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Suppose that I want to threaten dash dtilt vs sheik especially when she's charging needles, but sheik is holding down and can also mix cancelling needles. If I don't land a tipper dtilt, then I'm basically getting CC grabbed. This makes dash forward kinda not feel threatening to the sheik compounded with her movement.

You say above that it's good to stuff her forward movement, but atm I don't see the benefits of locking her down especially when she can hold down vs fair and also ftilt.

I also think it's hard to react to sheik's runoff fair from side platform directly. Not sure if it's something I should practice with my rising fair or just punish what she does afterwards, giving her a lot of leeway and stage.
 
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Dr Peepee

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But doesn’t Dtilt offer the same advantages here, also discouraging Sheik from moving forward? So would you only opt for jumping when you can’t Dtilt (because you’re in a dash or out of range etc.), or is there some distinct advantage to jumping and threatening aerials? What do they communicate and/or discourage that Dtilt wouldn’t?
Jumping gives you drift and timing control and can help you dodge attacks, whereas Dtilt if you mistime you can get hit. Sheik can also jump over Dtilt.

Suppose that I want to threaten dash dtilt vs sheik especially when she's charging needles, but sheik is holding down and can also mix cancelling needles. If I don't land a tipper dtilt, then I'm basically getting CC grabbed. This makes dash forward kinda not feel threatening to the sheik compounded with her movement.

You say above that it's good to stuff her forward movement, but atm I don't see the benefits of locking her down especially when she can hold down vs fair and also ftilt.

I also think it's hard to react to sheik's runoff fair from side platform directly. Not sure if it's something I should practice with my rising fair or just punish what she does afterwards, giving her a lot of leeway and stage.
You have to tipper it. If she cancels as she sees you run in, then you're telegraphing too much imo. Perhaps adjust WD distance, or start to RC from farther away.

Locking her down keeps her from WD/jump/dash back should you wish to do so. If you don't want to approach here then just wait in a safe range and move in and out of it I guess.
 
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