Important Carefully Ask EG.PPMD about the Tiara Guy

Dr Peepee

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If you're always Fair'ing then that is certainly not good. Also I am not sure when I said that Fair beats everything when the opponent is cornered, but I would not cosign that statement at this time given things you're mentioning and more. If the opponent expects you to jump, either jump unconventionally(such as late drift in or outside their range or empty land), or simply don't jump. You can play a more passive game so long as that doesn't involve ALWAYS moving back. Never always do anything.
 

maxono1

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what do you think are the negatives to dual maining? im thinking about picking up falco seriously and i dont know if i should switch, dual main or keep playing marth for now. i really like marth and how i can shut down opponents but i think he can get boring sometimes because i dont feel like can press the issue that much with him and i really like the tightrope walk that is playing falco and i love his combos, shield pressure and neutral where you can really go ham sometimes. also i dont think his techskill is as hard as people make it out to be. one thing i feel is that im kind of trying to cheat by dual maining because i dont want to lose my progress with marth so idk if thats something thats good to do
 
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At this point in the hot seat where it's game 5, last stock, my hands feel nervous and shaky and certainly I am not thinking straight. And he sees this and pins me down that's accentuated with his punish game.
Hey man good **** recently with Griffin, just wanted to point out that this sounds like an assumption/self fulling. Taking a look at the clip, it seems like a situation that you've handled correctly sooo many times. Only difference is that its last stock and you believe everything you said in the quote. So definitely try to take a breather, and keep on playing. Maybe even abuse what you think hes sure to do?
 

Dr Peepee

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what do you think are the negatives to dual maining? im thinking about picking up falco seriously and i dont know if i should switch, dual main or keep playing marth for now. i really like marth and how i can shut down opponents but i think he can get boring sometimes because i dont feel like can press the issue that much with him and i really like the tightrope walk that is playing falco and i love his combos, shield pressure and neutral where you can really go ham sometimes. also i dont think his techskill is as hard as people make it out to be. one thing i feel is that im kind of trying to cheat by dual maining because i dont want to lose my progress with marth so idk if thats something thats good to do
The downside is that you're now playing two characters that take a ton of practice to grow and be stable with. Also choosing who to use in a given matchup is now a difficult decision. There's nothing wrong with putting more time into a secondary or serious secondary to bring some variety to your life though.
 

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what do you think are the negatives to dual maining? im thinking about picking up falco seriously and i dont know if i should switch, dual main or keep playing marth for now. i really like marth and how i can shut down opponents but i think he can get boring sometimes because i dont feel like can press the issue that much with him and i really like the tightrope walk that is playing falco and i love his combos, shield pressure and neutral where you can really go ham sometimes. also i dont think his techskill is as hard as people make it out to be. one thing i feel is that im kind of trying to cheat by dual maining because i dont want to lose my progress with marth so idk if thats something thats good to do
imo, just don't do it if you care about results. I have never seen dual-maining at not-top level ever work out for anyone personally long-term nor have I seen it work out for anyone else nationally. It's better to stick it out with one character and iron out the associated problems with that character as you grow as a player.
 

maxono1

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thx for the replies you both. i actually did what i recommended kodorin for his tetris stuff and played falco on netplay for the rest the day instead of practicing my marth. this made me realize that i just needed a change of pace and that learning the matchups for both is probably going to be a tall ask because falco and marth are so different and im struggling enough with marth already. so i will be taking up falco as a somewhat serious secondary like pp recommended.
 

Mahie

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Hey PPMD PPMD , I've had a bit of a problem in my career that I think you have touched upon.

Recently, I came back to Melee while being super rusty, so I took my time and played the game carefully, weighing each option before picking it, in order to relearn it. It works great in a lot of ways, made my punish game more streamlined, and my awareness in neutral shot up.

The thing is, this makes me play slow / a bit scared / passive.

I'm starting to feel more comfortable with my techskill again, so I started going faster, but I realized playing like that comes with other problems : More tunnel vision, a tendency to improvise more than I actually decide what I do, being overaggressive. It does make me play more creative, and obviously much faster,

How can I join both of these modes?

I've always tended to work on one mode, then back to the other, and so on and so forth, but overall it's still very difficult for me to get the best of both worlds, at the same time.

Any tips?
 

Zorcey

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When you have a Fox who’s DDing outside your WD Dtilt range waiting for you to jump or move in as his cue to attack, how do you handle this? I’ve found that I can EL and Jab/Ftilt if he jumps in, sometimes Rising Fair if I have the space. Since he’s more or less waiting I could also approach him, but this is obviously very risky, so I try faking it and backing off, which has helped some.
Basically I’m putting myself in a position where I have to outplay the Fox, so I wonder if the problem is letting him set up here or not. If that’s the case how do you keep Fox from setting up his good positions like this one?

Where do you position on YS to edgeguard spacies sweetspotting from onstage? As close to the ledge as possible (like teeter cancel close) or a little further back than that? Do you recommend Dtilt or a late Fair? Am I correct that this is the only stage you can hit true SSs from onstage? (Mostly concerned with Shinestall > DJ to ledge if I didn’t go for runoff Dair, and SS UpB.) I miss and get hit quite a bit on this stage because of being uncomfortable around the slope, I realize.

Generally a lurker, but I’m still loving the streams. You seem really happy to be playing and getting back into the community, and the positive energy is great to see. Hope your health keeps improving <3

Edit: you can forget that YS question, I remembered I could use develop in 20XX and tested myself: a little hard to time, but turns out late Fair hits much further below every stage than I thought, and the horizontal range on Fsmash on YS is cheap, to say the least. I understand where Marth is hitting much better now.
 
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maxono1

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what are the concrete benefits of jumping first in the neutral?
ive been thinking about the basic stuff and come to the conclusion that staying grounded should be better in most cases(except like if ur falco shooting lasers or puff because her air drift is so good) because you have more control over the spacing.
is that even true?

also what would the exceptions be?
im thinking that jumping first is good because of fair which now has less startup and endlag and because of that with just jumping you can threaten it to elicit a reaction from the opponent and most of the time they want to punish the lag so u can hit them by drifting forward/not ff and delaying it.
also u can hit grounded opponents more safely with aerials/punish cc more heavily with later nair and spaced fair than dtilt.
and u can dodge low attacks sometimes.

what i dont like about it is im vulnerable at the beginning and if they space just outside of my aerial/jump even if they dont punish me directly im still in frame disadvantage and i dont want that.

the reason im asking this is i dont fully understand when or why jumping first in the neutral is a good idea and ive just been doing it whenever it feels right, when i think i can hit them with it or when i want to protect the ground and air in front of me which dtilt doesnt do and rising fair has a lot of lag.
it feels kind off muddy to me and im looking for a clear picture
 

Dr Peepee

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Hey PPMD PPMD , I've had a bit of a problem in my career that I think you have touched upon.

Recently, I came back to Melee while being super rusty, so I took my time and played the game carefully, weighing each option before picking it, in order to relearn it. It works great in a lot of ways, made my punish game more streamlined, and my awareness in neutral shot up.

The thing is, this makes me play slow / a bit scared / passive.

I'm starting to feel more comfortable with my techskill again, so I started going faster, but I realized playing like that comes with other problems : More tunnel vision, a tendency to improvise more than I actually decide what I do, being overaggressive. It does make me play more creative, and obviously much faster,

How can I join both of these modes?

I've always tended to work on one mode, then back to the other, and so on and so forth, but overall it's still very difficult for me to get the best of both worlds, at the same time.

Any tips?
Good question.

I think practice is an important aspect to this. You can adapt better if you're playing quickly in a way you built up slowly, and have built the adaptations into your practice. Otherwise you'll be forced to play slow in order to understand what's going on. But as you said, you need both. So I think practice is the missing link here.

Let me know if you need more info.

When you have a Fox who’s DDing outside your WD Dtilt range waiting for you to jump or move in as his cue to attack, how do you handle this? I’ve found that I can EL and Jab/Ftilt if he jumps in, sometimes Rising Fair if I have the space. Since he’s more or less waiting I could also approach him, but this is obviously very risky, so I try faking it and backing off, which has helped some.
Basically I’m putting myself in a position where I have to outplay the Fox, so I wonder if the problem is letting him set up here or not. If that’s the case how do you keep Fox from setting up his good positions like this one?

Where do you position on YS to edgeguard spacies sweetspotting from onstage? As close to the ledge as possible (like teeter cancel close) or a little further back than that? Do you recommend Dtilt or a late Fair? Am I correct that this is the only stage you can hit true SSs from onstage? (Mostly concerned with Shinestall > DJ to ledge if I didn’t go for runoff Dair, and SS UpB.) I miss and get hit quite a bit on this stage because of being uncomfortable around the slope, I realize.

Generally a lurker, but I’m still loving the streams. You seem really happy to be playing and getting back into the community, and the positive energy is great to see. Hope your health keeps improving <3

Edit: you can forget that YS question, I remembered I could use develop in 20XX and tested myself: a little hard to time, but turns out late Fair hits much further below every stage than I thought, and the horizontal range on Fsmash on YS is cheap, to say the least. I understand where Marth is hitting much better now.
Pretty hard to keep him from sitting at TR or TR+ lol.

Pushing in slightly can be useful, with dash or with a shorter WD to encourage an approach. Dash/run in WD back or retreating SH/Fair can be quite helpful as well. Once he's discouraged from attacking, Dtilt and take space open back up.

Getting on the slope, which is a bit farther back than teeting, is where you'd usually like to be. That is for Dtilt/Fsmash anyway, but Dtilt will usually work fine. Fair can be fine but depends on what you are trying to hit side B vs up-B vs DJ. And no, you can hit DJ to edge with Dtilt on other levels, but it's way easier here(on other levels the spacie technically has advantage as they could jump close or far around your tipper Dtilt, as Kadano has outlined).

Thank you very much! I have been somewhat surprised by, but still enjoyed, your memeing lol. I truly do love this community and game, and I'm glad it shows. I MUST GET ALL THE WAY THO!!!!

And oh okay I always forget about late Fair but good you tested it.


what are the concrete benefits of jumping first in the neutral?
ive been thinking about the basic stuff and come to the conclusion that staying grounded should be better in most cases(except like if ur falco shooting lasers or puff because her air drift is so good) because you have more control over the spacing.
is that even true?

also what would the exceptions be?
im thinking that jumping first is good because of fair which now has less startup and endlag and because of that with just jumping you can threaten it to elicit a reaction from the opponent and most of the time they want to punish the lag so u can hit them by drifting forward/not ff and delaying it.
also u can hit grounded opponents more safely with aerials/punish cc more heavily with later nair and spaced fair than dtilt.
and u can dodge low attacks sometimes.

what i dont like about it is im vulnerable at the beginning and if they space just outside of my aerial/jump even if they dont punish me directly im still in frame disadvantage and i dont want that.

the reason im asking this is i dont fully understand when or why jumping first in the neutral is a good idea and ive just been doing it whenever it feels right, when i think i can hit them with it or when i want to protect the ground and air in front of me which dtilt doesnt do and rising fair has a lot of lag.
it feels kind off muddy to me and im looking for a clear picture
Air to ground, Marth is not as good as air-to-air. That is true. However, you can dodge things like Marth or Fox Dtilt with your jump and punish them, as well as jump back over moves like Sheik DA and punish as well. It's also hard to easily cover given you can drift and aerial or not and FF or not as well as when you do each of these. The zoning is tricky, and a necessary complement to movement in many cases. It projects aerial threats more clearly, but you often need to be reasonably spaced to do it.

I would disagree that the beginning is vulnerable, unless you're referring to jumpsquat. Rising Fair is fine in place and especially retreating very safe. It's mainly jumping forward that is very risky and requires more to successfully implement.
 

Zorcey

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Do you recommend using different DD speeds/patterns to augment conditioning on mixups like Dtilt/Fair? For example, if you often did a slower DD before you run in and jump, and a faster one before a Dtilt, this could add an extra layer of association you could use against an opponent - same concept can be applied to patterns as well. You think this is too abstract/removed from what your opponent is doing, or something worth exploring?

What do you think of WD in Fair? There’s so much association between WD and Marth’s ground threats, and it tends to get more dramatic responses than dash in, so I think being able to threaten jump out of it too would be really neat. But WD is slower than dash, more of a commitment, and adjusting the spacing is tricky/not as precise. You could use it when the opponent is further away, I guess, but at that point you could just run and still carry both the threat of Fair and RC Dtilt, so idk.
 

Dr Peepee

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I think it's reasonable. No need to overdo it, you can just think of doing two slow dashes vs one fast one slow.

WD in Fair/jump is good because of the Dtilt association. Still need to make sure you don't get caught on your WD lag or Fair lag, which people can wait for when they think you will WD.
 

Zorcey

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When you dash in WD back, how do you distinguish between the response to your dash in and the response to your WD back when the sequence occurs so quickly? (For example, responses to both could arguably be for the opponent to start moving in - either to meet you or take the space you gave up.) I vary the timing on the WD back, and when I do it slower it’s easier, but it seems much less effective and easier for people to rush down.
I realize I’ve been thinking of the sequence (as well as others) as one “option” but then trying to break down opponent responses to each individual part, which doesn’t work that well (at least right now). How should I frame understanding responses to these sequences, especially as they become more complex?

This also relates a little to your answer to Mahie: when “gathering information” about opponent responses, I always end up taking more time (so if I land a Dtilt and dash back, but the opponent does a Jab in place or dash back, I’ll make note of it, but my next action out of the dash back will be staggered and I may even lose my flow sometimes because I’m processing what they did, as well as trying to remember that next time I land Dtilt I also have to account for the fact they KNOW I dashed back last time, and I have to weigh that as well, etc.); all of this takes a lot of mental energy that I’m trying to consolidate by shadowboxing the situation, but in the end should I always be expecting to be alternating a slower and faster pace as I gather information and then exploit it, or should the end goal be to be able to gather and exploit information on the opponent at the same time, always at top speed, and slowing down is only part of the learning process (slowing down as a conditioning tool or mixup notwithstanding)?

Sorry if my thought process obscures my questions in these, btw: it’s helpful for me, but I sometimes wonder if it makes it difficult to respond.
 

Dr Peepee

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You're on the right track. Sciencing it such that they could only be responding to one is the way to go. Keep varying the spacing and timing and see what's best. For example, if you think it's vs dash in, don't WD back and see if their response is similar. If you think it's WD back, just WD back. Keeping as much constant as you can will help with this.

It's going to be slow at first, then build speed. This is why I stress keeping it simple and only using a couple mixups so you don't overwhelm yourself in the complexity.
 

vitorswimer

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PPMD, I don't know if you watched the match of Zain vs Trif (Smash Summit 8).
Here is my thoughts
Zain doesn't know this MU well yet. He used a bunch of dash dancing unnecessarily and lost space control and he doesn't know how to control the stage in his favor. He doesn't know how to position on the stage when peach is out of the stage, close the ledge and peach is so limited when she is holding ledge. He just need to be close to the ledge and stop letting peach como back to the stage for free.
It should be pretty good if you made an analyse of this set focused in stage control, positioning and how to deal with peach turnip in neutral.
I just see so many marth players doing wrong in this MU.

I like a lot to watch your match vs Armada winners semis on FoD game 5 at Apex 2015. The stage control of your marth was perfect.
 
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Kotastic

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How can you force icies to stop ramming at you and smash attacking? It seems like even if I try to wall with dtilts and aerials, I feel like their chances of sneaking in a smash attack with two climbers are pretty high, especially if they're good at whiff punishing. Feels dumb to ask this, but it honestly feels like Marth is somewhat limited in this regard especially since his punishes are meh. Obviously platforms is one answer, but what about in like FD?

Lost to a sheik at a tourney where I could feel a big reason why he beat me was because he figured out my tempo to successfully attack me, and I couldn't figure out his as he seemed to switch his tempo seemingly unpredictably. Tricky to explain. I'm not sure how to analyze this aspect of the game and how to adapt to this, any pointers?

The mixup of dtilt vs their jump is fair right? But in the event where even tipper fair doesn't knockdown, what would be the substitute to beat their jump? WD back + in dtilt or nair? DA? I want the risk/reward to be comparable to landing a fair. If such risk/reward doesn't exist, how would you go about it?

In the scenario where the opponent isn't exactly committing such as dash dancing but is within dtilt range, should you favor dtilting the opponent and the mixups associated with it as opposed to taking space?
 

Dr Peepee

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If you whiff a Dtilt outside of their range or DD a lot, yes you have to worry about WD smashes. If you can drift in with Fair to hit them or their shield, or Dtilt them or their shield, then they can't do anything. Sitting a bit farther away to react to them WD'ing in otherwise will keep you safe.

It sounds like a matchup thing in part, but for tempo specifically it may help to give yourself ample time to observe them. More WD or jump back means more time to analyze for example.

Mid or late Fair are still fine vs jumps, just not early Fair. If she jumps in at all you can grab, but that's not always reliable. Sometimes you may have to settle for a poke or shield pressure until you get an opening you want, which is important to work on setting up.

If you mean moving into Dtilt, then they may be waiting to react to your approach. It really depends. Lower percent though I have no issue at all taking the Dtilt. Good damage and stage positioning afterward usually.
 
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PP, I have a tourney tomorrow that will probably be my last big one and then I'll fade out a bit. Captain faceroll and Soonsay will be there. I don't expect to beat C.R but I'm positive on soonsay though he's much better now. I'm going to study some videos today in preparation. Any advice you could give me for tomorrow? I'm going to look at the ground based games like how you play (and me) despite the videos being old but I'll also watch Zain Soonsay and some others.

He's also my bro and we are teaming but I'd love to beat him tomorrow cause we both friendly trash talk each other a ton and he insists he is going to beat me, let's not let that happen lol
 

Kotastic

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Coming from someone that plays Faceroll weekly, prepare for his amsah techs and his general defense. You can't lazily fsmash him because he WILL amsah tech it, so counter it with rising fair --> whatever to beat his amsah techs if you can. Or fsmash --> dtilt. RPS for port 4, you need it because faceroll WILL DJ out of not true uptilt followups.

Faceroll will wait for you to approach a lot of fairs and constant needles, but if you somehow get past that, he can be provoked with instant dash attacks and needles. But you need to get past his layer 1 defense first.

He's also really hard to corner, solely because he's the only sheik that can perfectly ledgedash with like 10 galint --> instant DA/BG, nair, FH needle, dash back counter-attack. Just beware.

He's also like a top 20 player so good luck lol.
 

Dr Peepee

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PP, I have a tourney tomorrow that will probably be my last big one and then I'll fade out a bit. Captain faceroll and Soonsay will be there. I don't expect to beat C.R but I'm positive on soonsay though he's much better now. I'm going to study some videos today in preparation. Any advice you could give me for tomorrow? I'm going to look at the ground based games like how you play (and me) despite the videos being old but I'll also watch Zain Soonsay and some others.

He's also my bro and we are teaming but I'd love to beat him tomorrow cause we both friendly trash talk each other a ton and he insists he is going to beat me, let's not let that happen lol
Tipper your Dtilts, mix up your Fair timings and make sure you can dash back perfectly out of hitting it on CC, and make sure you know your Uthrow follows.
 

Kotastic

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Regarding dtilt/fairing at icies so they can't wd forward, what if they just retreat? It seems like I'm taking a big risk swinging at them, so I'm not sure how to gauge when to swing at them and predict when they are retreating.

I think a fundamental problem of mine recently is that I disproportionately use rising fair thinking that they will jump which I don't think is at all sustainable. Feels like often I need to do rising fair to properly punish their jumps as opposed to later fairs, but I might be setting things up wrong. Advice?

Also, how do you effectively dodge Sheik during her invincibility? I feel like if I fail to cross her up as she land, her walk tilts are very easy to land vs Marth so it's impossible to cross her up.

How do you stuff Falcon on platforms? I feel like his incredible horizontal reach makes him harder to deal with than other characters, and I find that I'm cornering myself when he's hanging around top platform.
 

Dr Peepee

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If they retreat, let them. Them getting cornered is better for you. Reading them going back is not so good since if you are ever wrong you just get blown up. Yes it will mean you have to get into the good position again, but it should be easier the second time around as they will have less/no room to move back now.

Rising Fair is very risky unless you're hitting their shield spaced or farther away, especially if you're moving/drifting in. You may be getting too antsy to swing and directly punish something you see like a spacie, and may instead need to be setting yourself up for punishes or controlling them like a Marth.

Moving toward Sheik to force the tilt stops her in place so I try to make her do that and make her choose between doing it again or rushing me down with her remaining time.

You'll need to work on beating his moves off of platforms with aerials or dash JC grab instead of just trying to sit out of range of it.
 

Kotastic

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Regarding the second paragraph, how should I go about setting myself up for punishes and control space? Is this accomplished by not directly swinging, but punishing with pivot grabs/aerials and taking space?
 

Dr Peepee

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You don't need to always swing, you're Marth. Less is more. Spacies can swing a lot, you're not a spacie.

It's about threatening what you have. It's about changing exactly when you swing. Sometimes waiting is good, sometimes taking stage is good, sometimes rising Fair is good. Although I think rising Fair should be done less than the other things. But yeah mixing in more not swinging may be beneficial to you here to learn when to do it.
 

Zorcey

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In the ditto, because both Marths have the same TR, what is good spacing for one Marth but not the other in true neutral situations? My idea was to be outside their immediate range, but within their WD Dtilt/dash Fair range to take advantage of how slow Marth is and hit them setting up, but I wonder if this is too close - it could make reacting difficult and if you throw out a preemptive swing and whiff you have so much hang time you basically threw away neutral.

When do you think it’s appropriate to jump preemptively in the ditto as opposed to on reaction?

Not sure if this question makes sense, but in general, where and why should Marth set up a DD against himself?
 

Dr Peepee

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If you mean no one has any advantage and both are standing still as true neutral, then spacing is pretty irrelevant as you have the same range and options. It would be more about getting into whatever position is most comfortable for you. Your idea is a fine one to get into, but you have to be concerned about those problems you mentioned, and would need to mitigate them when possible.

Jumping preemptively is good if you expect an approach, if you're just outside of their Fair/tilt range, if you're farther away than that to zone/bait.

Last question is too broad.
 

Zorcey

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I more meant what spacing should you be looking for, as in, what spacings could invalidate the other Marth’s threats while keeping my own relevant (not as extreme as say, Marth in shield while you’re spaced, but something of the sort).

I think doing a retreating Fair or dash back would both be pretty safe options from the spacing I mentioned, but would only really win if they lunge, so I could also do a mid or late Fair or just wait (since they’re under pressure and likely to crack first) to condition them to go first.

Yeah, I figured the last question would be too broad. I don’t really understand how DDing is used in this matchup, but I think I’ll just work out how the individual dashes work in different positions and go from there, I’m probably trying to shortcut it.
 

jkadan

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Hi, wondering how to go about studying position vs falco, and implementing it through practice/friendlies. Switching to marth after playing the game for a few years (coming from falcon), and the spacings I instinctually play at are all wrong. My current plan is to check out top marths vs top falcos and note what spacings they are most successful out and weigh each characters options against each other at each spacing. Then set the situation up in 20xx and practice beating it. Wondering if there are better/more questions I can be asking and if there's any positive changes I can make in my current plan. Also any suggestions anyone has on how to improve pre hit box positions in daily solo practice would be sweet. Have a nice!
 

Dr Peepee

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I more meant what spacing should you be looking for, as in, what spacings could invalidate the other Marth’s threats while keeping my own relevant (not as extreme as say, Marth in shield while you’re spaced, but something of the sort).

I think doing a retreating Fair or dash back would both be pretty safe options from the spacing I mentioned, but would only really win if they lunge, so I could also do a mid or late Fair or just wait (since they’re under pressure and likely to crack first) to condition them to go first.

Yeah, I figured the last question would be too broad. I don’t really understand how DDing is used in this matchup, but I think I’ll just work out how the individual dashes work in different positions and go from there, I’m probably trying to shortcut it.
You can only gain advantage if it's not true neutral. Things like having slight frame advantage while inside Dtilt range for example would be good.

Hi, wondering how to go about studying position vs falco, and implementing it through practice/friendlies. Switching to marth after playing the game for a few years (coming from falcon), and the spacings I instinctually play at are all wrong. My current plan is to check out top marths vs top falcos and note what spacings they are most successful out and weigh each characters options against each other at each spacing. Then set the situation up in 20xx and practice beating it. Wondering if there are better/more questions I can be asking and if there's any positive changes I can make in my current plan. Also any suggestions anyone has on how to improve pre hit box positions in daily solo practice would be sweet. Have a nice!
I would say don't be afraid to look at top 100 or below Marths because the top level stuff can be pretty tough to always discern. It may also help to come up with your own ideas of where to be independently of others so you can compare your ideas.
 

Kotastic

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Why do you do the WD back --> jump aerial? When actually trying to apply this, I find that rising fair in place accomplishes controlling my space much better if they're trying to hail mary ram at me.
 

Dr Peepee

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You WD back then jump, aerial generally is mid or late. This helps you have time to react in case they fake and perhaps do a safer aerial vs their approach. But yes if you know they will rush in anyway, rising Fair in place is fine.
 

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Does fair invalidate doc? What kinds of fairs are you talking about?

Been losing to Franz and not sure how I should be positioning my fairs as he finds way to whiff punish or CC punish my rising/late fairs in place. Depending on your answers, I have clips to show later.
 

Dr Peepee

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Fair of course beats his jumps, and can be used to lock him down. It's not good to do too much jumping when just outside of his range as it could open up some DA iirc but it's more okay to jump there than against ICs as we've discussed. Drifting in can be fine since he can't do much about you on the way in I believe.
 

Ladder

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Are there any guides/ vods you recommend on how to eguard Samus?
I really don't know if i should go out or not, or grab ledge or not.

What are the main things you look for when edguarding samus?
 

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I don't think any guides exist. I need to refresh myself in it honestly. I'll tell you what I do know.

Going out and even hitting her bombs is good because then she can't bounce on it so she drops lower. I know Dtilt'ing her from onstage can help when she tries to grapple too close to the stage(test out the range it's a bit surprising). Going out with Bair is best to hit her away, but Fair can be good if you swat bombs. You can also fall onto bombs if she's low to make them explode so she can't use them. Grabbing edge and waiting is usually not going to stop her though.
 

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I sometimes find myself consistently missing important whiff punishes in high stake situations. Things like "I need to whiff punish Dash in SHFF Nair from Fox right now" and getting too antsy about it and just mistiming it and they get to dash back or SH over my punish and punish my mistiming. Do you have any advice on what to do in that situation? More specifically from the whiff punish side of things, I know I can also counter poke with SH Fair or whatever counter pokes their movements based on the button I'm up against. I have personally started just punishing the action they take afterwards instead of trying to punish the button when this comes up (Corner/Overshoot if they dash back, anti air if they jump after, etc.) Does that seem like a good idea?

As an aside, how are you so good at properly timing your whiff punishes? It's honestly impressive whenever I watch you, what do you do to be able to do it so consistently?
 

Dr Peepee

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Setting yourself up for the punish is important. A lot of times, you get stuck in an awkward position like when you dash in but are too close to whiff punish so you have to focus on moving back more than counterhitting. So, jumping around the time you expect an attack can help you just easily time an input to counter. In situations where you're nervous, you need to make the counterhit easier, so WD/jump back can often give you plenty of time to react, though it does give up some opportunities of course.

That other question is hard to answer, but part of it comes from knowing threat ranges and what they like to do and putting my own threats on them and forcing them to act around certain times, then setting up for the counter.
 

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When fairing someone in the corner that's shielding, and I know that he will continue to sit there, what are the benefits of this corner pressure? Is it okay to mix in something like tomahawk grab? I've been doing tomahawks as a mixup because I'm not really sure what i'm accomplishing by letting them sit there other than maybe get blown up by their WD in retaliation.
 
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