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Kotastic

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How do you properly juggle Yoshi? Especially discerning when Yoshi chooses to DJ or not. And when his resources are exhausted, how do you catch him safely between his down-b/side-b/nair? It seems like whenever I attempt juggling Yoshi, he somehow finds a way to weave around my aerials which makes it so hard to reliably rack up damage. Yoshi's falling fair is also weird, but I think I can react to the startup with it and catch it with my fair, but everything else doesn't make sense to me.

It also gets annoying when he somehow armors through my stuff too when he just descends without using his DJ yet, making me question if it's even marth advantage when Yoshi is above.

When Yoshi is just wavelanding like crazy on platforms, should I just never approach? It seems like whenever I touch his shield, I immediately regret it. I'm not sure how Marth is supposed to contest yoshi on platform other than just backing off, even with fade back aerials. Even if I do poke him, it's not like I get anything.

When Yoshi is recovering at percents where his DJ can't be broken, what can I do at all to edgeguard? Doesn't seem like I can do anything.

All semblance of neutral is boiled down to just me trying to spam light shield and trying to wall out with aerials in place. Every time I tried approaching I regretted it. Trying to counter Yoshi's fair is so weird but kinda manageable if I descend with my fair. Doesn't really feel like I'm interacting with the Yoshi, feels like I'm getting gimmicked a lot and just turtling up.

This character makes no sense and is so unga bunga aosidjvsiogvhsurihv.
 

Dr Peepee

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I prefer to wait out the DJ, or drift away pretty hard if I do swing so he can't punish. Sometimes just faking can force the DJ/downB etc but even if not, the fake still can cover him falling into you, which is pretty important.

Yeah sometimes you can just go for damage if he's on a platform. Of course, you want to swing when he's off the platform and not on it if the shield is your worry, which can mean committing when he's on the platform. No need to rush here, as he isn't favored if you take your time.

Just hit him late in his DJ so he can't armor you, or sometimes grab him. Sometimes I fadeback Nair to make him armor the first hit and connect with the second.

Yeah I felt that way too.
 

maclo4

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Totally agree about yoshi. It’s definitely partly lack of my experience but there are some situations where it feels like there’s no good solution.

You’re probably aware of this but I wasn’t till somewhat recently, but yoshi takes no shield stun, so he can immediately shield drop which is why it feels like you can’t interact with him on platform. I’ve played one good yoshi and after our matches I asked him how to deal with platform and he basically said not to interact, feels kinda dumb but I what’s he gonna do if you just back off.

Different topic, but can anyone explain how sheik needles work on hit? Specifically I’m wondering what options I have if sheik does aerial needles on my shield then lands next to me (assume she does well times needles for the most frame advantage). I assume I can roll away before she can do anything right? What about grab or wd back? And what happens if I get hit by them and she lands next to me or lands on a platform next to me? Does she have guaranteed combos from that if I don’t sdi?
 

Dr Peepee

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If she lands and a needle hits your shield before she lands I believe she could grab your roll startup as she is plus. You do not want your shield needled unless she hits high. For other punishes it's the same deal. If you don't SDI and needle lands low then she is plus but it's even better since I think you'll be stunned for longer unless you CC I guess. She could grab or jab or Ftilt but I don't know what is true and what isn't, though I would suspect needle jab is true when it's a low needle anyway.
 

Kotastic

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When do you determine to DJ dair sheik from ledge? I tried it here in hopes of a quick kill that's supposedly safe on the ledge, but I get reversaled here: https://clips.twitch.tv/GeniusOddPheasantHassanChop

What would you suggest as the optimal punish here when sheik recovers onstage?: https://clips.twitch.tv/CrunchyEmpathicEyeballPlanking

We discussed earlier that jumping around DA range is good, but I ended up getting hit anyways? What would be the adjustment here?: https://clips.twitch.tv/ExquisiteGorgeousSalamanderCoolStoryBob

Also I've been on a losing streak on Faceroll again. Feels so frustrating to have my punish game feel so wildly inconsistent while his are so much easier, devastating, and straightforward. Today I got reversed 3-0'd, and I attribute that for the lack of consistent punish game. Yet, you are the hope claiming that Marth has a stronger punish game. Any general advice for attaining your vision?
 
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Dr Peepee

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You needed to be earlier/a little farther out. I think it may not have been possible here as he up-B'd as you would have come up from the edge and may have been over the Dair hitbox. You should have been able to Bair, and mayyybe you could have Dair'd if you drifted out a bit and were frame tight.

Maybe SH Uair(back hit so she techs in by the edge...maybe Bair for similar reason)? Maybe Dthrow/Fthrow mixup to get an Fsmash or a better edgeguard. Even Bthrow is a possibility to catch her out of her DJ iirc.

Huh....I wonder if jumping back hurtbox is worse than in place? I saved that for testing later. Anyway, jumping earlier probably would have helped(though I think you timed it well), but maybe dash/WD back, or Dtilt in place to intercept would have been better. Holding down would have worked as well I believe, so Dtilt could have served a dual purpose.

Yeah Sheik's punishes are undoubtedly easier than Marth's until top level. It's so frustrating I couldn't imagine dealing with it, it's the reason why I didn't main Marth after all lol. I think grinding out the punishes, especially perfectly learning percents and port-dependent stuff for Uthrow punishes and grinding edgeguards, will change your results in ways you want to see.
 

maclo4

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This is kinda general, so lmk if this is hard to answer, but I’ve realized a problem I have in pretty much every mu is setting the pace. It’s easy to set the pace when people are worse than me but with players who are at my level or above I find myself playing to their style more than making them respect me. This leads to a more defensive play style that works a lot but honestly just isn’t as fun as when I’m in control for me. When I try to control pace I also find myself taking some unneeded risks and doing worse. If you have any advice for this I’d really appreciate it
 

Mahie

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Hello, how do you deal with a crouching Fox at the edge when you hang on the ledge ?
The context for this question is this netplay session between me and Leffen : https://www.twitch.tv/videos/424967530


I had so much trouble breaking his crouching at the ledge. I'm not sure what to do. PPMD PPMD if you have any tips for that, or just in general even, I'd be very grateful.
 

maclo4

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The context for this question is this netplay session between me and Leffen : https://www.twitch.tv/videos/424967530


I had so much trouble breaking his crouching at the ledge. I'm not sure what to do. PPMD PPMD if you have any tips for that, or just in general even, I'd be very grateful.
Can you fadeback fair ->regrab ledge? Fox can probably run out and shine you tho.. yea this situation sux

Also, I'm having an odd problem lately that I'm not sure what to think of. So against fox and sheik specifically (other chars too just less) I have been doing way more empty jumps and wavelands as baits and it's been working really well, but now I'm realizing I don't really know how to get someone to actually get hit by my late fairs. Against some people it feels like I just really can't get them to run into a late fair, so then I start think "whats the point of fairing at all if it's not gonna hit, the SH threatens the fair anyways, and it puts me in more lag." Of course I realize that if I never faired people would stop being threatened by jump, but sometimes it feels like I'm fairing and just hoping it hits by the other persons mistake.
 

Dr Peepee

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This is kinda general, so lmk if this is hard to answer, but I’ve realized a problem I have in pretty much every mu is setting the pace. It’s easy to set the pace when people are worse than me but with players who are at my level or above I find myself playing to their style more than making them respect me. This leads to a more defensive play style that works a lot but honestly just isn’t as fun as when I’m in control for me. When I try to control pace I also find myself taking some unneeded risks and doing worse. If you have any advice for this I’d really appreciate it
I'm not sure there is a solution for this besides getting better at playing positions, aka playing the game better. People can force you to play their way more in certain situations but maybe not overall the better and better you get.

Hello, how do you deal with a crouching Fox at the edge when you hang on the ledge ?
Haxdash vs late spaced Fair vs spaced second hit Nair vs NIL Fsmash/shield/jab/grab vs edgedash roll/dash/Utilt. Depends on how close they are for each grouping of options and their percent of course. Up-B stalling can be useful if they're close enough occasionally. It's a rough position though. If you have more specifics let me know.

Also, I'm having an odd problem lately that I'm not sure what to think of. So against fox and sheik specifically (other chars too just less) I have been doing way more empty jumps and wavelands as baits and it's been working really well, but now I'm realizing I don't really know how to get someone to actually get hit by my late fairs. Against some people it feels like I just really can't get them to run into a late fair, so then I start think "whats the point of fairing at all if it's not gonna hit, the SH threatens the fair anyways, and it puts me in more lag." Of course I realize that if I never faired people would stop being threatened by jump, but sometimes it feels like I'm fairing and just hoping it hits by the other persons mistake.
Sometimes drifting in a lot they don't expect the late Fair and get hit. Sometimes they commit to running in anyway so you want to Fair that. But yes you won't need to do it a lot if they respect it, and once they stop respecting it it'll be pretty obvious. Sometimes doing it without hitting is okay as it puts the move in their mind and could encourage an approach. Marth is good at zoning, not always so much at approaching.
 

Kotastic

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What are advantages for jumping in place vs Sheik as opposed to WD back or dtilt in place?

Can't really think much because WD back is good for capitalizing lunges and dtilt in place is good against incremental approaches. I suppose jump is good out of movement?
 

Zorcey

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Do you think there is use in conciously naming the options an opponent likes to use, either in friendlies or in tournament? Or do you think that adaption should come entirely subconsciously if you’re well-prepared for a particular option?

What is the reasoning behind your rule that you need to be “closeish” to zone versus Sheik? I assume zoning isn’t good if you’re too close because of her fast tilts catching your jumps, but why not further away? Why is zoning very good when you’re closer? Is this “closeish” something like Marth dash rising Fair TR?
 

Dr Peepee

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What are advantages for jumping in place vs Sheik as opposed to WD back or dtilt in place?

Can't really think much because WD back is good for capitalizing lunges and dtilt in place is good against incremental approaches. I suppose jump is good out of movement?
Jumping in place lets you manipulate drift and also hold stage whereas the others have you give up stage and can make it harder to get direct punishes sometimes(jump has this problem sometimes too depending on things). Dtilt gives less reward than an aerial hit on average, and the timing can sometimes be more easily manipulated than a jump/aerial.

Jump is good out of movement, gives more damage than Dtilt and knockdowns/followups better than Dtilt, and you can change positioning as you observe during it.

Do you think there is use in conciously naming the options an opponent likes to use, either in friendlies or in tournament? Or do you think that adaption should come entirely subconsciously if you’re well-prepared for a particular option?

What is the reasoning behind your rule that you need to be “closeish” to zone versus Sheik? I assume zoning isn’t good if you’re too close because of her fast tilts catching your jumps, but why not further away? Why is zoning very good when you’re closer? Is this “closeish” something like Marth dash rising Fair TR?
Consciously naming is fine, but it's better during respawn or between matches.

Farther away gets you needled, but if you have discouraged that or the Sheik doesn't do it, then it's fine.
 

Dr Peepee

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It's all good. As far as my own practice and execution make me aware, you cannot help but lose drift distance when using A button. Perhaps there's some TAS-like stuff that could avoid this, but I don't think it could be easily/consistently hit. This is why I'm doing more C-stick practice on stream lol, you'll see it with Falco eventually too.
 

Dr Peepee

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If he's jumping in place and you're not in immediate range, yes. If he's jumping in place and drifting forward, likely yes but you may need to be out of range of immediate Nair/Uair/Bair. If he's jumping forward, you may need to be farther away. A lot depends on how well you are setting yourself up and how much you've practiced beating stuff. I'll just say being out of range of the immediate move is best for reactions and the circumstantial stuff can be quibbled over in your own time/on here.
 

maxono1

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hey pp if i do dash in wd back in neutral against falcon and he times his dash sh knee so it hits me in my wd lag, is it any good to do dash in fade back rising fair instead to hit him out of it?
or should i have dashed forward less far/wd back earlier?
edit: also what exactly do you mean using manipulation in neutral(you say that about fighting falcon on yoshis) i find it too vague to understand what you mean by it.
 
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VMPR

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When should i jump against sheik ? just when she jumps ? i dont really understand how to hold space against her. Or if she really wants to take space from me in the first place. I also dont really understand what to do about needles
 

Dr Peepee

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Jumping just outside of her Ftilt range can be good to hit her leg, or drift in and hit her. This space can also help you catch her jump with Fair. You can also jump a bit farther away to hold space and cover dash attack.

Needles force you to come in or shield, but if you don't shield you don't act so obviously after them. I just let needles hit me most of the time and run in so she is pressured after them.
 
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Is it feesible to react to a wavedash if I’m predictively looking for it? I find that a lot of my pressure attempts get lost as soon as my opponent wavedashes oos and while I could try to predict the timing and throw out a move preemptively, I don’t like the idea that I’d have to rely on that read to get a hit on their oos option.
Alternatively maybe I’m thinking about this wrong and I should just except that I’ve forced them to back up (assuming they don’t wavedash into me) and try to react to the wavedash fast enough that I benefit from the extra stage control.
Any thoughts about this or pieces I might be missing here would be greatly appreciated.
 

Dr Peepee

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You can react to WD away OOS, but unless you're pretty close/setting up coverage to hit them moving back, it's unlikely you'd hit them directly out of their WD and more out of what happens next. Sometimes you can also be more sure of the WD than others which can change how you prime yourself and set up for it.
 

VMPR

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Can you explain how to use Marths Dtilt in neutral I just dont get it and basically avoid using the move as anything but a "you cant dash through me" Button
 
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For sure I guess I’m just not preparing for the wd. Thanks PP.

To answer the dtilt question, it covers grounded approaches super well, this is in part because it pokes straight out rather then arcing into the space you’re looking to hit and maybe more importantly you can act after using it faster then just about any of marths moves so you don’t need to worry nearly as much about getting whiff punished.
What feels bad about dtilt to you?

(Just so you know pp did just start a YouTube guide for marths neutral and touches on the value of dtilt there)
 
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Dr Peepee

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Can you explain how to use Marths Dtilt in neutral I just dont get it and basically avoid using the move as anything but a "you cant dash through me" Button
It covers grounded approaches and forces opponents to jump or move back as a result, which are both great for Marth. If they start waiting then that can be good as well.
 

Kotastic

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I've been thinking simple things to make my dash dance harder to hit, such as two long back and forth dashes, and then fox trot the same dash direction I initially went as a mixup when they expect the other direction.

Ex: I long dash back and forth, and as I long dash back, they expect me to dash forward so I mix up with dash back again. Same for forward dash.

How can I build more complexity to this?

Also, is hitting a moving target harder than a stationary target but with fixed dodging options such as a long dash and rolling? Like, a moving Marth has a higher ceiling of dodging attacks?
 

Dr Peepee

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Where is the weakness in this? Where can you be surprised? What happens if they catch on to your timing? These are good questions to ask.

I don't fully understand your second question, but moving is harder because hurtboxes contort yes, and Marth dodges many things with dash he would be hit by while standing even if he's in his first dash frame.
 

Kotastic

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I was discussing with someone how it's just inherently better to dash around than staying still because at the very least, it's harder to hit a moving target than a stationary target. Therefore, it's just better to dash dance which I'm not fully sure if I agree with yet. This is talking solely in a defensive/evasive pov. Not really sure how else to phrase this, so lmk how else I can frame this.
 

Kotastic

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Yeah I think crouch tech chase is technically inferior to shielding, but it's so much easier. As for crouch fsmash, at certain spacing it doesn't work but you could dash grab. Otherwise, I think crouch tipper fsmash is usually preferable. Dash back out of crouch is a pain, but I found that once you get the form to dash back out of crouch, it's really easy to continually do it for some reason. Otherwise, you can tipper fsmash roll in which is a nice bandage. I think especially it's useful if your reactions are limited or on your B game.

A dumb aspect of crouch tech chase is that you completely dodge Marth's GUA if you're up close, so it's just superior in all aspects. I would know for Faceroll abusing this against me....

oh yeah, I've been internalizing some more juggle concepts. I've realized that sharking in of itself only reliably works if the opponent being juggled barely has any options left, which Marth's sword seriously oppresses some floaties. Otherwise, I need to position myself in favorable situations where I cover both their attacks on the way down and exhaust their resources. I realized that without their DJ, they need to commit hard with their drift which I can seriously capitalize on. They can use their DJ to change their drift, so it's on me to make my juggle maneuvers work.

Against puff, this is where it blurs. It barely feels like a favorable juggle positions when they effectively have 5+ mixups of getting down, alongside an excellent drift. I feel like most puffs I play are kinda bad at getting down, but I can sort of shadow on how puff can make it harder for me to juggle. It feels like if I want a big reward especially against drift away, I have to hard commit with a read which shouldn't feel like the case. Maybe I'm worrying about this too much, so is that why you have the count their jumps rule to simplify things? I suppose their last 2 jumps is barely much so it can easily be sharked.
 
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heyitshoward

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Speaking of the crouch tech chase, when I was playing with Squid and Ginger recently at Saving Mr. Lombardi they advised me that reacting with shield was infeasible due to which frames the different options would become distinguishable from each other and said simply learning/practicing the crouch a bit would be better. I think this bears investigation or y'all could try talking to either of them yourselves for the full explanation.
 

Dr Peepee

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Yeah I think crouch tech chase is technically inferior to shielding, but it's so much easier. As for crouch fsmash, at certain spacing it doesn't work but you could dash grab. Otherwise, I think crouch tipper fsmash is usually preferable. Dash back out of crouch is a pain, but I found that once you get the form to dash back out of crouch, it's really easy to continually do it for some reason. Otherwise, you can tipper fsmash roll in which is a nice bandage. I think especially it's useful if your reactions are limited or on your B game.

A dumb aspect of crouch tech chase is that you completely dodge Marth's GUA if you're up close, so it's just superior in all aspects. I would know for Faceroll abusing this against me....

oh yeah, I've been internalizing some more juggle concepts. I've realized that sharking in of itself only reliably works if the opponent being juggled barely has any options left, which Marth's sword seriously oppresses some floaties. Otherwise, I need to position myself in favorable situations where I cover both their attacks on the way down and exhaust their resources. I realized that without their DJ, they need to commit hard with their drift which I can seriously capitalize on. They can use their DJ to change their drift, so it's on me to make my juggle maneuvers work.

Against puff, this is where it blurs. It barely feels like a favorable juggle positions when they effectively have 5+ mixups of getting down, alongside an excellent drift. I feel like most puffs I play are kinda bad at getting down, but I can sort of shadow on how puff can make it harder for me to juggle. It feels like if I want a big reward especially against drift away, I have to hard commit with a read which shouldn't feel like the case. Maybe I'm worrying about this too much, so is that why you have the count their jumps rule to simplify things? I suppose their last 2 jumps is barely much so it can easily be sharked.
Reacting to distance sent to grab vs Fsmash sounds worse to me since it's not reliable *shrug

I don't think Marth can crouch under another Marth's GUA but I feel you lol.

Yes at last paragraph. Puffs generally don't come straight down, and their later jumps are worse, and they rarely use all 5. This helps a LOT.

Speaking of the crouch tech chase, when I was playing with Squid and Ginger recently at Saving Mr. Lombardi they advised me that reacting with shield was infeasible due to which frames the different options would become distinguishable from each other and said simply learning/practicing the crouch a bit would be better. I think this bears investigation or y'all could try talking to either of them yourselves for the full explanation.
Everyone now says that. I disagree.
 

Ladder

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Speaking of the crouch tech chase, when I was playing with Squid and Ginger recently at Saving Mr. Lombardi they advised me that reacting with shield was infeasible due to which frames the different options would become distinguishable from each other and said simply learning/practicing the crouch a bit would be better. I think this bears investigation or y'all could try talking to either of them yourselves for the full explanation.
Ginger says it's different whether they are on their back or on their belly. It's supposed to be a lot harder if they are on their back, I don't know the specifics though. Would be great if someone had more info on this, personally I find shielding it easier because I'm bad at dashing out of crouch.
 

AirFair

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couple questions

when juggling people, sometimes I will think that my opponent isn't threatened by me and try and swing at them with a rising fair or uair from standing, and I'll swing right as they airdodge or stall, and sometimes this drops my punish entirely. I usually watch people's drift in relation to me before choosing to threaten with moving/sh, and if I think it will hit I'll do sh rising aerials, or dj aerials out of my sh if they are higher up. I thought this to be pretty effective, but it seems that some people just want to get really close to me before acting to throw off me punishing them, whether they fall on me with an aerial (peach bair, sheik dair) or side b as marth, or just airdodge. How can I avoid this situation and capitalize more often? do I just need to do the swing in place and try and follow up from there?

vs peach, when I'm dashing back in response to her jumping, I sometimes get caught by a mixup where peach will float towards me, and I'll pivot grab as if she was going to fc bair, but instead she will keep floating towards me and hit me. Since my window for punishing fc aerials is pretty small, I worry that if I'm late I'll get spotdodge dsmashed, which isn't what I want. Is there a way to properly counter this?
 

Dr Peepee

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The point at which you could hit them could be a point at which they dodge. It helps to do mid or late aerials sometimes, OR falling aerials as they come into you, to avoid this. FF'ing right as you swing can help you set up even if they dodge, while swinging as you rise keeps you airborne. Try to abuse that.

You could pivot SH in place to Fair pressure her landing or Fair her drift in I would imagine.
 

Kotastic

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When do you draw the fine line of taking space and doing a dtilt? Feels like I can't properly discern when to use the two approaching tools.

Bit of a nebulous question, but this kind of sequence has happened so many times vs faeroll lately: https://youtu.be/4PstagW8m2M?t=1191
What can I do to like, productively affirm control here? At this point in the hot seat where it's game 5, last stock, my hands feel nervous and shaky and certainly I am not thinking straight. And he sees this and pins me down that's accentuated with his punish game. Any advice on how to approach this kind of scenario and win?

What should Marth do OoS when he's getting spaced fair pressure against another Marth? Usually I execution test by holding down and hopefully cheese with a (shield)grab, but obviously that's not sustainable.
 

Dr Peepee

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If they expect a Dtilt, don't do one. If they're unsure, up to you or don't do one. If they think you won't do one, do one. There's so much going on like when dash becomes run, how much space there is, percent, matchup, what happened recently...it's pretty hard to answer the question as it is.

You kept yolo'ing on that stock, so you should not do that. I think it's good to take a moment to remind yourself of your gameplan and what has worked for you lately in these situations on the respawn platform/as you're waiting. That is helpful for me. Also taking a genuinely deep breath has been surprisingly helpful for me, cliche as it is. Marth does suffer a lot in a matchup like this especially when he's nervous, so overcoming this will help you a lot.

Could WD in and Dtilt after taking Fair, jump after Fair hits, WD back, time a roll at a weird time, etc.
 

Kotastic

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3368-4107-1072
NNID
Kotastic
What do you do when Marth just stands there in the corner, reacting to your jump? You advocate that fair beats everything, but if the opposing marth is reacting to my jump with an fsmash or something, I feel like it's not that great. And while the not cornered Marth does have the advantage grounded, it's kinda questionable that even if it's like a 70/30 position for the not cornered Marth, the 30% I lose is like me getting DA, fsmashed, getting space taken, or grabbed which leads me to an obviously horrible spot. Advice?
 
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