Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Kopaka]

When studying situations for depth over breadth, would you say that there's things to pick up on that can carry over to other situations? Because at the pace I'm going, which is looking at freeze frames of specific situations for a long time, it'll take me a very long time to look through many other situations. And say if I have a goal of winning a tournament in the next month, I'd want to go in as prepared as possible, but it's unlikely I can study so many situations in that time at my current pace.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Yes, there certainly is carryover. Sometimes it's only in the patterns you learn, or the connections between separate situations(or types of situations) you learn in depth. Regardless, even if it didn't change those results much for that event coming up(which I would doubt if you are studying well), I would think this type of work is still very valuable long term.

 

[Kopaka]

Thank you for taking the time to respond.

 

[Zorcey]

When you say 55%+ I assume you're talking about tipper Fair? Is there much of a reason to use soft Fair in a juggle situation (if there is, would the starting percent to work it in be much different)?

Are there situations where you could consider a platform totally covered even if you're not on it? Can Marth ever cover all landing options by being under or beside a platform rather than on top of it by using DJ aerials?

If you're going to aerial against Falcon, it mainly has to be with aerial basically at TR, or right on top of him(unless he's cornered somewhat).

Do you mean at the edge of Falcon's TR or Marth's? Falcon's, right? Would you ever want to aerial if Falcon is sitting at the edge of your TR, or do you want to move then?

Versus a laser-heavy Falco, should Marth be approaching before he shuts down the lasers somewhat, in your opinion? It seems disproportionally risky to move far in when moving in slightly and using take laser Jab/dash back and sometimes dash SideB heavily encourages Falco to aerial in or approaching laser after awhile.
Also in this phase of neutral, are there much use for your aerial tools? Sometimes I Nair over low lasers/Nair in place if Falco is close, but are there other ways I could use it too? What are the uses of Fair here? (Maybe Marth could, depending on the position, WL FF Fair off a side platform?)

 

[capusa27]

Dr Peepee (or anybody else)

Any opinions on the substantial invincibility boost from ledge dash that Marth gets on Battlefield from the "head bonk?" Here is the link: https://www.reddit.com/r/SSBM/comme...dge_tech_djb_double_jump_bonk_up_to/?sort=new

 

[Kotastic]

Are TR and reaction points similar? Think I need a refresher to what TR means.

I like the idea of retreating aerials because my hitboxes are superior to Falcon's, so I will try that.

Are you saying that the usual times I should swing at Falcon it should be when I'm barely in range or right at him, so aerialing in between is really bad? If I'm in that position, should I be repositioning with movement and not jump?

 

[Dr Peepee]

When you say 55%+ I assume you're talking about tipper Fair? Is there much of a reason to use soft Fair in a juggle situation (if there is, would the starting percent to work it in be much different)?

Are there situations where you could consider a platform totally covered even if you're not on it? Can Marth ever cover all landing options by being under or beside a platform rather than on top of it by using DJ aerials?

Do you mean at the edge of Falcon's TR or Marth's? Falcon's, right? Would you ever want to aerial if Falcon is sitting at the edge of your TR, or do you want to move then?

Versus a laser-heavy Falco, should Marth be approaching before he shuts down the lasers somewhat, in your opinion? It seems disproportionally risky to move far in when moving in slightly and using take laser Jab/dash back and sometimes dash SideB heavily encourages Falco to aerial in or approaching laser after awhile.
Also in this phase of neutral, are there much use for your aerial tools? Sometimes I Nair over low lasers/Nair in place if Falco is close, but are there other ways I could use it too? What are the uses of Fair here? (Maybe Marth could, depending on the position, WL FF Fair off a side platform?)

Usually, but it depends on matchup. I'm just giving general rules, and obviously it applies somewhat differently to Puff than Falcon. Soft Fair is for when their percent is higher so they can't hit you back and you can hit them in a followup form out of it(in addition to getting a better position with you closer and them lower and in front of you). Weak Fair is great to hit during juggles when percent allows.

Yes sometimes, but it can be kind of a pain to say what is and isn't easily covered there which is why I didn't offer it as a rule.

I guess his, but both characters' TR is super long and I happen to believe Marth's is effectively longest in the game. TR zoning is to announce you control space, and even going inside it a bit to aerial can be good to push boundaries of what the opponent accepts.

Dr Peepee (or anybody else)

Any opinions on the substantial invincibility boost from ledge dash that Marth gets on Battlefield from the "head bonk?" Here is the link: https://www.reddit.com/r/SSBM/comme...dge_tech_djb_double_jump_bonk_up_to/?sort=new

I do worry about fighting Fox while doing the setup, and of course using my good side B. I don't know what Marth gains with the extra invincibility, but I do like the idea of getting to dash out of edgedash which extends the range people have to be at to cover getting up.

Are TR and reaction points similar? Think I need a refresher to what TR means.

I like the idea of retreating aerials because my hitboxes are superior to Falcon's, so I will try that.

Are you saying that the usual times I should swing at Falcon it should be when I'm barely in range or right at him, so aerialing in between is really bad? If I'm in that position, should I be repositioning with movement and not jump?

TR is the range of the fastest+strongest attack a character can threaten with. So standing just outside of there keeps you able to react to everything. That means going inside of it forces an opponent reaction, as of course does getting close to them when you can hit them without having to dash and so on. Reaction points are where decisions must be made.

On top of him(or pretty darn close to it sometimes), or at TR. And yes otherwise you should be moving or I suppose waiting.

 

[Kopaka]

What does your process for studying situations look like, if say you wanted to understand it deeply? I'm looking at options to cover 1 option or 2 options if the opponent decides to mix it up, but I've also been thinking of 'making smaller circles' for melee, and just what it is thats included in the circle as far as button presses go. Waitzkin outlines what goes into a punch, but I've been thinking about what goes into a dash or a wavedash. Currently I've been studying sets of players who aren't at the top echelon because I want to work on training my eye to pick up on things that might otherwise go unnoticed if I study top level play. Something small I wrote the other day was " Condensing the feeling of making sure that when I make a decision, it's at a point where the opponent has little to no options to beat what I choose. "I feel that the game has a ton of undeveloped potential to come up with strong axioms to follow, as opposed to other games and sports that have existed for centuries.

These 2 situations are sort of similar and have to do with what I'm thinking about currently.

Kalvar vs AbsentPage https://youtu.be/QlZfapuj9Kg?t=479

You vs Leffen https://youtu.be/Gv74JXJBFwk?t=144

I can detail what I think about these two situations but for the sake of keeping this post shorter for you, i'll save it for later. I will say that there's a lot being condensed into something so simple, which is dashing, and why you'd move back in with a grab after your dtilt here.

also I'd like to add that studying situations and actually thinking about the game for once has been really enjoyable if not difficult, very difficult especially when outlining all the branches that can stem from one small situation seed... and it has opened up so many things that I never realized before...

 

[rousd]

Anyone have any tips on developing/theory crafting a flowchart for punish game vs spacies (or I guess any other character) on platform stages?? I feel as if my punish game on FD and even PS to some extent is really well developed since it's relatively easy to test out and practice on 20XX with the hitstun colour overlay, and just knowing what to do at each percent helps a lot.
But adding in a third platform makes systematic punishes a lot more harder since they have more options to DI/tech away, and finding the best punish by feel is fine sometimes but isn't quite cutting it anymore.

So would it be more efficient to watch vids of top players punishing and analyse step by step what they're doing? I feel as if this would be fine to do but it's hard to replicate the opponent's DI with a CPU, and not necessarily applicable in game vs other people.
Or would it be better to find out the "best" option to cover every tech/DI option at every percent at every stage position?? I feel as if it would take a long time to develop but seems like it would be worth it, unless if there are other ways to improve my punishes??? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[maxono1]

Dr Peepee i think you forgot agrathors post on the previous page(last post)
i also got some questions for you.
if you could theoretically ps every falco laser (like with zps) would there be a situation where you purposefully take the laser instead of ps? if so why?

TR is the range of the fastest+strongest attack a character can threaten with. So standing just outside of there keeps you able to react to everything. That means going inside of it forces an opponent reaction, as of course does getting close to them when you can hit them without having to dash and so on. Reaction points are where decisions must be made.

so when talking about marths threat range do you only talk about rc dtilt and rising fair or also rc fsmash because its range is longer?
a reaction point would be for example after a zoning fair when i have to decide if i want to dash forward, backward, shield, jump or attack again(or wait i guess)?
a reaction point would also be after a movement sequence like dash forward into tr and wd back out?
i hope youre not too stressed by everyone piling on the questions.

Kopaka the only thing ive kind of applied the 'making smaller circles' idea to is on the quarter circle sdi on fox upair. (this is on the uncle punch event btw) at first i was making a really exaggerated motion and because i wasnt getting it i got frustrated and put more force into it (which doesnt help and kind of destroyed my control stick). but over the course of 3 or so weeks of almost daily training while focusing on making the movement as efficient as possible and finding out which inputs you actually need for the 2 sdi i can get i pretty easily and without damaging the rubber on the stick, my friend even said that it looked pretty easy.

for anyone reading the essential parts are:
getting the right timing by practicing the simple one sdi to the side first.
while looking at the stick, practicing the neutral to 3 o'clock to between 2 and 3 motion or neutral to 9 to between 9 and 10 motion slowly and then gradually getting faster (dont put more force into it u dont need that much)
to get a feel for the right motion, so when youre focusing on getting the timing right you dont need to focus that much on the motion.
then you do both together and practice that.

edit: rousd get unclepunch training mode it has a combo event where you can control the % and make the cpu do any kind of di and any kind of tech option at will

 

[Dr Peepee]

What does your process for studying situations look like, if say you wanted to understand it deeply? I'm looking at options to cover 1 option or 2 options if the opponent decides to mix it up, but I've also been thinking of 'making smaller circles' for melee, and just what it is thats included in the circle as far as button presses go. Waitzkin outlines what goes into a punch, but I've been thinking about what goes into a dash or a wavedash. Currently I've been studying sets of players who aren't at the top echelon because I want to work on training my eye to pick up on things that might otherwise go unnoticed if I study top level play. Something small I wrote the other day was " Condensing the feeling of making sure that when I make a decision, it's at a point where the opponent has little to no options to beat what I choose. "I feel that the game has a ton of undeveloped potential to come up with strong axioms to follow, as opposed to other games and sports that have existed for centuries.

These 2 situations are sort of similar and have to do with what I'm thinking about currently.

Kalvar vs AbsentPage https://youtu.be/QlZfapuj9Kg?t=479

You vs Leffen https://youtu.be/Gv74JXJBFwk?t=144

I can detail what I think about these two situations but for the sake of keeping this post shorter for you, i'll save it for later. I will say that there's a lot being condensed into something so simple, which is dashing, and why you'd move back in with a grab after your dtilt here.

also I'd like to add that studying situations and actually thinking about the game for once has been really enjoyable if not difficult, very difficult especially when outlining all the branches that can stem from one small situation seed... and it has opened up so many things that I never realized before...

To answer your question directly, I look at exactly what every option is from that point, as well as what happened beforehand and also what the general conditioning is like(is someone playing nervous, etc). I look at what happened and do my best to explain why. It helps to see the situation more and more in the same set and in others like what you're doing, to get an in-depth knowledge of the meta(what's typical and expected) and also what's possible.

Anyone have any tips on developing/theory crafting a flowchart for punish game vs spacies (or I guess any other character) on platform stages?? I feel as if my punish game on FD and even PS to some extent is really well developed since it's relatively easy to test out and practice on 20XX with the hitstun colour overlay, and just knowing what to do at each percent helps a lot.
But adding in a third platform makes systematic punishes a lot more harder since they have more options to DI/tech away, and finding the best punish by feel is fine sometimes but isn't quite cutting it anymore.

So would it be more efficient to watch vids of top players punishing and analyse step by step what they're doing? I feel as if this would be fine to do but it's hard to replicate the opponent's DI with a CPU, and not necessarily applicable in game vs other people.
Or would it be better to find out the "best" option to cover every tech/DI option at every percent at every stage position?? I feel as if it would take a long time to develop but seems like it would be worth it, unless if there are other ways to improve my punishes??? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

In addition to what maxono said, you can absolutely copy what top players do, but it also helps to change some percents and position to see what's good and what's not. You'll see trends develop if you work on it long enough.

Dr Peepee i think you forgot agrathors post on the previous page(last post)
i also got some questions for you.
if you could theoretically ps every falco laser (like with zps) would there be a situation where you purposefully take the laser instead of ps? if so why?

so when talking about marths threat range do you only talk about rc dtilt and rising fair or also rc fsmash because its range is longer?
a reaction point would be for example after a zoning fair when i have to decide if i want to dash forward, backward, shield, jump or attack again(or wait i guess)?
a reaction point would also be after a movement sequence like dash forward into tr and wd back out?
i hope youre not too stressed by everyone piling on the questions.

Kopaka the only thing ive kind of applied the 'making smaller circles' idea to is on the quarter circle sdi on fox upair. (this is on the uncle punch event btw) at first i was making a really exaggerated motion and because i wasnt getting it i got frustrated and put more force into it (which doesnt help and kind of destroyed my control stick). but over the course of 3 or so weeks of almost daily training while focusing on making the movement as efficient as possible and finding out which inputs you actually need for the 2 sdi i can get i pretty easily and without damaging the rubber on the stick, my friend even said that it looked pretty easy.

for anyone reading the essential parts are:
getting the right timing by practicing the simple one sdi to the side first.
while looking at the stick, practicing the neutral to 3 o'clock to between 2 and 3 motion or neutral to 9 to between 9 and 10 motion slowly and then gradually getting faster (dont put more force into it u dont need that much)
to get a feel for the right motion, so when youre focusing on getting the timing right you dont need to focus that much on the motion.
then you do both together and practice that.

edit: rousd get unclepunch training mode it has a combo event where you can control the % and make the cpu do any kind of di and any kind of tech option at will

Take laser can help you dodge when Falco is closer and would aerial over a PS iirc. I suppose if Falco was also prepared to ZPS a laser back at you, maybe it's worth it to play it differently then as well.

Mainly talking about Dtilt/Fair, but it's up to the individual player to establish the full threat range and manipulate it, so Fsmash can be more useful if a player uses it in such a way.
After zoning, if you're relatively close it can be a reaction point. If you're farther I don't think it would be. Similar for movement.

 

[Kotastic]

What are marth's main mixups on platforms vs icies?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Run off/fall through empty land(into Dtilt/dash back or whatever) vs Fair, maybe stuff like Fair/Dtilt on the platform and shield if they try to uair so you can shield drop punish. Perhaps moving to top platform, and faking that as well.

 

[Kotastic]

Someone proposed to me that I should be doing group dash dances, kinda in a similar manner M2K does it. It honestly doesn't really seem like M2K has a whole lot of "intent" with each individual dashes, but many describe M2K to be a very tricky player with his dash dance. What makes his group dash dances good?

Dash dances where I can't long dash into a dtilt confuses me. That is, until someone brought up an interesting thought that a group of dashes limits my options since I can't do some options readily, so they may feel safer to approach me as opposed to just sitting there. There's also the subject of tempo change with dash dance where I could mixup my opponent from there.

Honestly though, I'm not really sure if I should be doing this a lot. My own structure of play has its own mixups and intent which I feel is good. The argument I got for proposing to play a grounded dash dance style is that the risk reward is better than how I currently approach neutral which is to utilize dtilt threats (from WD and long dash) and jump in place (to force respect). What are your thoughts PP? If I should DD, what mu's is this prevalent for?

 

[Zorcey]

How do you beat Falco spacing AC Bair at around Marth WD Dtilt TR? Is it worth calling out? If not, how should I safely pressure him on landing? What if he's spacing Bair when Marth is cornered and Falco is just outside Marth's SH Fair range?

When is WD Jab better than dash SideB in neutral against Falco?

When Marth is cornered and a spacie is DDing outside his aerial TR waiting for him to commit, what are some of Marth's (relatively) strong mixups in that position?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Someone proposed to me that I should be doing group dash dances, kinda in a similar manner M2K does it. It honestly doesn't really seem like M2K has a whole lot of "intent" with each individual dashes, but many describe M2K to be a very tricky player with his dash dance. What makes his group dash dances good?

Dash dances where I can't long dash into a dtilt confuses me. That is, until someone brought up an interesting thought that a group of dashes limits my options since I can't do some options readily, so they may feel safer to approach me as opposed to just sitting there. There's also the subject of tempo change with dash dance where I could mixup my opponent from there.

Honestly though, I'm not really sure if I should be doing this a lot. My own structure of play has its own mixups and intent which I feel is good. The argument I got for proposing to play a grounded dash dance style is that the risk reward is better than how I currently approach neutral which is to utilize dtilt threats (from WD and long dash) and jump in place (to force respect). What are your thoughts PP? If I should DD, what mu's is this prevalent for?

M2K trades focus on movement for observation. It also helps he does long dashes so it's less technically demanding and also covers more total space. He adjusts generally with different spacings he understands, meaning some of it is informed.

Group dashes are a fine mixup and also can be good to go into if you're playing bad, so there's no downside to experimenting at least(though some may not prefer it). Downside to this as a main strategy is you can get hit without totally knowing why, or get up-tempoed by Foxes and sometimes Falcons. Fox, Falcon, Peach, Marth, perhaps Sheik are the main ones.

How do you beat Falco spacing AC Bair at around Marth WD Dtilt TR? Is it worth calling out? If not, how should I safely pressure him on landing? What if he's spacing Bair when Marth is cornered and Falco is just outside Marth's SH Fair range?

When is WD Jab better than dash SideB in neutral against Falco?

When Marth is cornered and a spacie is DDing outside his aerial TR waiting for him to commit, what are some of Marth's (relatively) strong mixups in that position?

If you prime for it, then it's probably fine to look for. Maybe can't always directly punish, but you can pressure the landing and get a favorable position, so that's great. Dtilt, Nair, Fair are all fine, with the aerials perhaps being more typically useful.
It can depend on how he's doing the Bairs, but dash Nair can eat up the Bair and also pressure him if he stays on the ground. Drifting in with Fair as he lands is good for pressure or damage too.

When you need to cover more distance, and especially if Falco is good at DI'ing out of side B bad positions anyway. Also can be good if the jab pushes him offstage.

Waiting, dash/run in WD back or jump back, platform stuff, etc.

 

[Kotastic]

So long dashes are good for observation. What are your opinions for short dashes?

Why are group dash dancing good especially when you're playing bad? Less taxing on the brain?

Why is it only sometimes good vs Sheik? Is it due to her ease in her ability to take space with tools such as FH needle?

What about vs puff? I happen to think group dash dancing is very useful vs her because I can use it to always threaten her landings and aerial patterns, plus can coax her to pound.

 

[Reyjavik]

So all, I've been taking a break bc I've been sick/just trying to enjoy the game after my first tourney. I started grinding practice again and I've noticed now after the tourney, I either didn't adapt very well in the past or my adaptation skills have gone down.
It seems that whatever game plan I have, I either lose it during matches or I keep trying the same option for some reason. I know what's happening but I can't seem to stop myself from doing it as it worked before earlier in matches.

Also, what would you say or the best options for CC with marth? Before Full Bloom I was trying to implement it much more but it seems harder to do against spacies in the actual application of it but also seems hard to follow up with with Sheik.
For example I can cc a Sheik Tilt, but her moves are so quick thata grab can whiff when on the edge of her TR after ccing.
Also, with the spacies you get shined which doesn't help too much ccing, with both drills relying more on sdi and really only 2 moves being cc-able.

 

[Dr Peepee]

So long dashes are good for observation. What are your opinions for short dashes?

Why are group dash dancing good especially when you're playing bad? Less taxing on the brain?

Why is it only sometimes good vs Sheik? Is it due to her ease in her ability to take space with tools such as FH needle?

What about vs puff? I happen to think group dash dancing is very useful vs her because I can use it to always threaten her landings and aerial patterns, plus can coax her to pound.

Short dashes help you minorly adjust space, speed up, reposition long dashes or set up for some other action if you choose to think of it that way....short dashes are inherently cut off quickly by things unlike long dashes so that's why I say that.

Yes.

I find I'm less effective at punishing or setting up on her landing out of long dashes back, and I also value a hybrid zoning-movement approach to Sheik. Still, you want to be able to dodge her lunges and long dash back is very good for that.

Puff is kind of weird, but I do like DD overall against her so that's probably alright as a general rule.

So all, I've been taking a break bc I've been sick/just trying to enjoy the game after my first tourney. I started grinding practice again and I've noticed now after the tourney, I either didn't adapt very well in the past or my adaptation skills have gone down.
It seems that whatever game plan I have, I either lose it during matches or I keep trying the same option for some reason. I know what's happening but I can't seem to stop myself from doing it as it worked before earlier in matches.

Also, what would you say or the best options for CC with marth? Before Full Bloom I was trying to implement it much more but it seems harder to do against spacies in the actual application of it but also seems hard to follow up with with Sheik.
For example I can cc a Sheik Tilt, but her moves are so quick thata grab can whiff when on the edge of her TR after ccing.
Also, with the spacies you get shined which doesn't help too much ccing, with both drills relying more on sdi and really only 2 moves being cc-able.

Changing your practice and/or simplifying it to address those problems may help.

CC grab is best, but CC Dtilt and occasionally things like CC Dsmash/Fsmash can work as well. Sometimes you can't get a direct punish but you can hold down and then pressure them with Fair or something. You can CC grab spacies' Nair into you, or you can CC grab their Utilt or CC grab their jab(they often do this after grab breaks or out of spotdodge or Nair). You can also CC dash JC grab Fox's Bair, but it has to be CC not ASDI down.

 

[Zorcey]

Where do I set up my zoning space against mid/low tiers? I would think because they generally have bad range, just at Tipper Fair spacing because this is where Marth could hit them but they couldn't really reach him. But I find it difficult to react to much in this space, and so while the odds of winning the mixup are in my favor, it feels like I'm giving them too much opportunity to outplay me (and when I'm facing a player better than me who mains one of these characters like Pikachu, Doc, or Yoshi they often do). Could I be playing too close? Should I maybe position at more of a long dash in Fair, or is this too far away?

What do you think of Marth's FH Rising Fair against mid tiers, particularly Doc? It catches him trying to FH Pill, but sometimes if he shields he'll manage to get under me and it's a really terrible position for Marth, so I'm wondering if there's a better choice. Can you think of big general reasons Marth would want to FH in neutral against mid tiers (leaving aside platforms)?

What do you think the main uses of Nair against Doc are? Could you make any rules about it that apply to most mid tier matchups (so far I find it's good if they're a "jump in" character like Pikachu or Yoshi, and for beating CC sometimes)? Would you say the less a character jumps, the less you'd want to Nair? This occurred to me but I'm not sure it's accurate.

There's really not much THAT much reward off a grab compared to a tipper aerial in most mid tier matchups I find, and I think you generally suggest not grabbing much versus these characters for that reason (and the fact that it's a lot easier for them to beat Marth's grab than his sword). But if I expect them to shield, do I just space an aerial and play the mixup on their OoS option? Is there much I can react to there versus a character like Doc (his OoS options)? I don't feel like I catch their OoS options nearly enough and they keep shielding until I start grabbing, but then I realize I'm not looking for anything in particular AFTER hitting their shield, and that's probably why.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Spaced Dtilt/Fair is where you want to be. You can be intercepted getting into this space, or someone could back up or precisely out-time you if you're just sitting there waiting or trying to dash back punish them, but overall it's very good. It's most abusable against Doc, and Pikachu from what I've seen looks fairly helpless there as well. Yoshi is more complicated due to parry and his DA, but he should be somewhat abusable as well.

No need to FH against Doc unless you react to his jump, but maybe against Yoshi or something it could be decent I don't know. Marth's FH in general is not so good outside of large scale zoning which is also a clear bait in many cases, and you don't need to outplay bad characters.

I don't think you need to Nair against Doc or most mid tiers. Yoshi it could be okay if you suspect a DJ, and Pikachu i'm less sure on but I don't like the lag/extended time usage of the move vs pika. In general for Nair, it's pretty good at taking jumps and hitting taller characters, and also at pushing away characters who may hold down at lower percents.

Grabbing vs Pika and Yoshi is okay, and perhaps occasionally Samus too but the reward on that is pretty small. You need to be looking not just to wait, but to influence. Dtilt makes them want to jump, and less likely to move in. Fair covers the air more. If you do a dash between, or wait for them to observe you waiting after communicating a threat, what would they think? It may help to play the matchup in reverse, or at least test it out on yourself in 20XX. Taking initiative would help a lot here.

 

[Zorcey]

Once I have successfully set up spaced Dtilt/Fair range, why is it so abusable? Because they shouldn't be able to directly beat me in that space unless they read the timing of my swing? (For example, if I did a Late Fair, Doc or Pikachu could just yolo Nair in, but if I did a Rising Fair, they could delay the Nair by dashing back first and then coming in. But when I think of it this way, the position doesn't seem "abusable" because they have pretty good odds of winning the mixup (and if they do they win neutral outright), so I figure I'm not playing it as "unfairly" as I should. I'm not sure if it's because I'm not mixing in enough options or not reacting to what I could be, etc.)

Could you go into a little more detail about "large scale zoning"? Is that literally just zoning a big part of the stage all at once? Does FH work as a bait (in the matchups against good characters I do need to outplay) because it communicates to the opponent very clearly that you have to land and they should try to punish it? If so, why does that work, since landing is such risky situation for Marth?

 

[DickNixon]

Hi PP,

What do you do when you're thrown off your gameplan or are completely unsure of what your opponent will do next? I currently resort a lot to giving up space and looking for a whiff or opening I can use to get back in my groove.

For example: I dash back expecting my opponent to whiff an aerial, but they also dash back. I'm afraid to move in because I don't know if they will try to do the same. The result is that we both are dash dance camping the opposite sides of the stage looking dumb. Is this something I should have prepared for when I dashed back in the first place? When this does happen, how do I transition back into my gameplan?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Once I have successfully set up spaced Dtilt/Fair range, why is it so abusable? Because they shouldn't be able to directly beat me in that space unless they read the timing of my swing? (For example, if I did a Late Fair, Doc or Pikachu could just yolo Nair in, but if I did a Rising Fair, they could delay the Nair by dashing back first and then coming in. But when I think of it this way, the position doesn't seem "abusable" because they have pretty good odds of winning the mixup (and if they do they win neutral outright), so I figure I'm not playing it as "unfairly" as I should. I'm not sure if it's because I'm not mixing in enough options or not reacting to what I could be, etc.)

Could you go into a little more detail about "large scale zoning"? Is that literally just zoning a big part of the stage all at once? Does FH work as a bait (in the matchups against good characters I do need to outplay) because it communicates to the opponent very clearly that you have to land and they should try to punish it? If so, why does that work, since landing is such risky situation for Marth?

It's unlikely you'd be unable to react if you set yourself up well and know where they could go. But for Pikachu, yes it's more about them being able to read and outplay you. So you may be committing to bad habits such as spamming moves, or waiting a lot once you do something while only looking for one thing like roll or nothing, or alternating between those two.

Yes, and yes, and yes. It works because you are farther away, and have space and time to drift, and can also land without doing a Fair which can mess up their counterplay. People like chasing landing lag, which this helps with.

Hi PP,

What do you do when you're thrown off your gameplan or are completely unsure of what your opponent will do next? I currently resort a lot to giving up space and looking for a whiff or opening I can use to get back in my groove.

For example: I dash back expecting my opponent to whiff an aerial, but they also dash back. I'm afraid to move in because I don't know if they will try to do the same. The result is that we both are dash dance camping the opposite sides of the stage looking dumb. Is this something I should have prepared for when I dashed back in the first place? When this does happen, how do I transition back into my gameplan?

Sounds like you need to make a plan for this and practice it. So in this example, what if you're unsure? You can move forward and retreating Fair or WD back, which is pretty safe. Then as you move back, you can see what they did. They also will see you moved away when you came in, meaning they may not challenge you moving in next time in a similar position. This could help you move in for real.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

How do I stop having empathy for my opponent as I am playing them? I struggle to not feel like I'm wasting my opponent's time if they continuously 4 stock me over and over. Or on the contrary, I can't help but feel bored/annoyed when I 4-stock someone over and over again.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I think accepting those feelings is a good first step. It's okay for lopsided games to happen, skill differences are big in Melee, and we should have respect for the opponent to tolerate these differences, as well as have compassion for ourselves to make the best of the situations. If you feel guilty, but they feel okay enough to keep playing with you, then why are you worried? If they have some concern, let them work around it and trust them to, or you can ask them about it if you're really worried.

 

[Kotastic]

In terms of warming up as efficiently as possible for controlling Marth during tournament, what would you recommend pp? I've seen faceroll prepare solely by just running around brinstar and practicing shino-sami stall.

Also, is knowing how your opponent feels (especially at close quarters) is fundamentally more important for the ditto than in other mu’s? I suppose to clarify more, the mirror both of you have same tools so it's especially important to outwit the other, whereas in other mu's it may be a question on how well you utilize certain tools to gain the edge.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I think warming up is pretty personal. I suppose something general to say would be working on techs you struggle with or are generally precise, such as haxdash or timing Dtilt ASAP out of WD/run. Some Marths miss the FF on Nair too(especially if the first hit connects), so getting that down would always be good. I personally like building slowly and moving on to progressively harder stuff, then slowing down and building more and more. I find the connection with the tools most important. Sorry for being vague, but I do worry about giving out a full routine for people to copy and it might not benefit them as it does me.

In the ditto, you can't always outspace the other player, so it becomes about timing and also how much risk you can tolerate with stuff like Fsmash. Or making them Dtilt and you jump, or making them jump and you Fair/Ftilt/Fsmash/pressure landing or whatever. So in some ways it's like other matchups in that some things beat some things, but you're right in that overall you have to really know your tools and fully abuse them to eke out advantages.

 

[Kotastic]

Speaking of missing the FF timing on nair when the first hit connects, do you fastfall on reaction when it hits or do you option select a timing where both scenarios (the one where you don't hit anything) you FF?

 

[Dr Peepee]

IIRC, there isn't a timing that works for hit and not-hit that lets you FF ASAP if you don't hit, so I prefer to react. With a little practice, and also practicing a timing that works generally as a backup, I'm pretty prepared for any type of Nair circumstance when I practice those things.

 

[Kopaka]

Against peach, if I'm in a situation where I'm just outside of dash attack range, and the peach is holding her space by shielding, being ready to hold down, moving forward and back a bit with wavedashes, basically doing anything but lunge at me, or she doesn't throw a turnip throw because she expects me to react to it, should I be yoloing in? Right now in those situations I've been told I've been giving too much respect. Kiiinda having this be prevalent in some other matchups atm too.

 

[Dr Peepee]

The decision isn't yolo or not yolo. Marth isn't that kind of character especially. If the Peach won't DA when you're outside her DA range, what if you move juuust into it? You can still dash back pretty safely if you see her move in. What if she doesn't DA then? Well you can get a bit closer. Soon you can start coming in with Dtilt more reliably, and also come in and pull back from different places with mindfulness, while Peach is stuck being slow. I think just getting comfortable getting closer, and learning your options there, and mixing up going in in different safe ways(run in retreating Fair is a good safe but damaging option, even if less useful vs Peach it gives you a safe hitbox) can make you more comfortable.

 

[maxono1]

even though it was recommended to me a couple months ago im only now starting to understand fighting falcon farther away and also not spamming attacks as shield pressure but for example using dtilt and then observing what he does after it. it really works wonders and it feels like im untouchable or something(probably not against top level falcons but against the falcons near me).
Dr Peepee idk where it was but you were talking about setting/planning accurate goals to the point where you can know what to do in the exact moment or something like that. i have struggled with being unorganized pretty much my whole life and would like to change that.
how micro(i guess) is your scheduling(or was when you were an active competitor) and what tools did you use?(like just a calendar or idk)
also where would a good place to start be for setting goals/making a schedule?
sorry if this is too off topic

 

[Dr Peepee]

Part of it comes from staying committed to it.

As for the scheduling itself, what I do is block out certain amounts of hours in the day to get things done and I tie it to stuff I do every day. So at my best with this, I was meditating 1-2 hours after waking up, and it was easy to remember to do that because I always wake up. Or reading right after I eat, and so on. You want to leave enough wiggle room in case stuff happens like an unexpected call or something else comes up or you just want to do one thing more, but also because you want to leave room for socializing and rest, especially rest at the end of the day to wind down. I used a notebook, and wrote down in there what hours of things I wanted to get in daily, and then mapped out the hours of things I actually did daily. Seeing the numbers like that makes things much clearer than just thinking about it.

For overall goals, I didn't use any when I was active after I became a top player besides wanting to beat any top player who had beaten me last or was on a hot streak or was good against me. I could use that to then help guide my daily training.

Does this help?

 

[Kopaka]

The decision isn't yolo or not yolo. Marth isn't that kind of character especially. If the Peach won't DA when you're outside her DA range, what if you move juuust into it? You can still dash back pretty safely if you see her move in. What if she doesn't DA then? Well you can get a bit closer. Soon you can start coming in with Dtilt more reliably, and also come in and pull back from different places with mindfulness, while Peach is stuck being slow. I think just getting comfortable getting closer, and learning your options there, and mixing up going in in different safe ways(run in retreating Fair is a good safe but damaging option, even if less useful vs Peach it gives you a safe hitbox) can make you more comfortable.

Ahhh, I see. Thank you for responding. Would these ideas apply to her float bair kind of zoning, instead of dash attacking? Trying to connect this to Falcon's nair-in range too

 

[maxono1]

Part of it comes from staying committed to it.

As for the scheduling itself, what I do is block out certain amounts of hours in the day to get things done and I tie it to stuff I do every day. So at my best with this, I was meditating 1-2 hours after waking up, and it was easy to remember to do that because I always wake up. Or reading right after I eat, and so on. You want to leave enough wiggle room in case stuff happens like an unexpected call or something else comes up or you just want to do one thing more, but also because you want to leave room for socializing and rest, especially rest at the end of the day to wind down. I used a notebook, and wrote down in there what hours of things I wanted to get in daily, and then mapped out the hours of things I actually did daily. Seeing the numbers like that makes things much clearer than just thinking about it.

For overall goals, I didn't use any when I was active after I became a top player besides wanting to beat any top player who had beaten me last or was on a hot streak or was good against me. I could use that to then help guide my daily training.

Does this help?

yes it does thanks a lot. mb ill ask more questions abt that after i think about it for a while/try it out

 

[Dr Peepee]

Ahhh, I see. Thank you for responding. Would these ideas apply to her float bair kind of zoning, instead of dash attacking? Trying to connect this to Falcon's nair-in range too

You're welcome. And yes it can connect to floating, as it connects to everything. Pushing in on the opponent and seeing how they tolerate it is a good way of applying pressure and understanding them better. Applying this pressure in the same exact way every time will stop working, so it's important to keep testing.

 

[Kopaka]

It would stop working in one way by them attacking sooner? I can see this against Fox too. I cant just wait outside or right at that range forever, or push into it and move back/push into it and attack forever. Instead of yoloing or not yoloing, if I confirm that if I do move in closer to their farthest reaching attack range, and they attack, or confirm they attack when I'm outside that range, then could I swing?

 

[Dr Peepee]

They stop taking it as an attempt to push in, or they just rush you down like you said yeah. Basically they stop respecting it.

And you come into a less-easy-to-react space when you move inside TR, so you won't always be able to swing if they do. You may need to guess/setup some things, or just practice reactions to help improve your time where you wouldn't normally be able to react. You can also just move back if they come in too, but if you always do this in the same way then it is exploitable as well of course. So the simple is: sometimes.

 

[Kopaka]

"And you come into a less-easy-to-react space when you move inside TR, so you won't always be able to swing if they do. " I think thats what was happening for me against Fox and Falcon recently. I'd be inside TR and I'd go for a Nair, but their nair would hit me first, or they'd have another counter. "Basically they stop respecting it." For Peach, and probably some fox/falcon too.