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Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy
- Thread starter Cactuar
- Start date
Hey PP I've been trying to work on my dash dance and having a purpose and what not and I'd like to be able to observe how people respond to my dash in/dash out and in theory it's easy but often it doesn't seem like they are responding to it at all and then because I was looking for a reaction from them to try and react to their reaction (so meta) and they didn't really do anything so I have nothing to react to and it makes it difficult to practice.
Also I noticed that if I dash back and let it hang for a split second after landing a spaced fair on shield then they are more inclined to approach me or make an aggressive play which I can cover with say a pivot fair or turnaround dtilt or dash away -> dash in ect. Is this an example of conditioning?
Also I noticed that if I dash back and let it hang for a split second after landing a spaced fair on shield then they are more inclined to approach me or make an aggressive play which I can cover with say a pivot fair or turnaround dtilt or dash away -> dash in ect. Is this an example of conditioning?
Doing nothing could be a reaction, but you may also not be directly affecting them. You may need to attack more out of dash in, or be closer when you do your movement so they HAVE to move.
You're already figuring that out with your other question. That is exactly what conditioning is like.
You're already figuring that out with your other question. That is exactly what conditioning is like.
maclo4
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Dec 21, 2016
- Messages
- 114
I've been thinking about shield pressure a bit more lately and I'm not really sure what the use of dtilt should be. Like im not sure what option/s it really covers compared to either aerials or empty pressure. The common options I see when I'm pressuring people in shield the most are aerials oos, wd back/forward, and rolling/spotdodge. Dtilt doesnt cover jump oos, or rolling back, and if they roll or wd towards me and I dtilt while they are rolling (for example if i dtilt twice in a row and they roll after the first dtilt) they can cc punish it at most percents. IMO a mix of aerials and empty pressure punish these options a lot harder than dtilt. Obviously its really quick and safe if spaced well but I'm just not sure what I should be looking for with it. Is it more of a "force them to do something with dtilt then react and punish that option with something else" type of move? Just not really sure because it seems like I'm missing something, and since I've started using it less on shield I also feel like my shield pressure has gotten way better
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It can hit them coming out of shield, and if you're not fully spaced it can help hit WD away oos. But yes it does not cover as many total options as Fair. That means Dtilt and threatening Dtilt is good to force jumps, which you can eat up. If you only did Fair and wait then they could be more inclined to WD around or just tunnel vision on you jumping. I do agree though that you don't need to spam it on shield, and it tends to be more commonly useful against ICs, a character who can't jump oos. I think opting to push toward Fair or waiting more is fine.
AirFair
Marth tho
Couple questions about different matchups
when fox does an approaching fh towards me in neutral, and I dash back to cover it, is it hard to differentiate between him landing with an aerial and him using his dj as he's getting close to landing? I have trouble dealing with this mixup out of my dash away, since I feel like I can only cover one of them, and if I guess wrong I'm either punished or I lose stage.
when peach has a turnip in her hand, a lot of the time I find myself nairing at her when I'm closer to her and I couldn't wd dtilt in time since it will beat throwing it at me that close. She will often shield in response, and I feel like I can't hit turnip throw oos for some reason after I have spaced the nair on her shield. I often try dtilting afterwards to try and hit her wd, but when she throws the turnip I often catch it by accident and eat a punish. Are there different things I can try when peach is shielding with a turnip? I feel like this situation is really good for me but I haven't been able to capitalize on it.
btw
Kotastic
I played faceroll for awhile this weekend since he came to Houston, was really interesting to play him after watching yall's sets for awhile. I got messed up a lot but I feel like I learned quite a bit too. He's amazing LOL
when fox does an approaching fh towards me in neutral, and I dash back to cover it, is it hard to differentiate between him landing with an aerial and him using his dj as he's getting close to landing? I have trouble dealing with this mixup out of my dash away, since I feel like I can only cover one of them, and if I guess wrong I'm either punished or I lose stage.
when peach has a turnip in her hand, a lot of the time I find myself nairing at her when I'm closer to her and I couldn't wd dtilt in time since it will beat throwing it at me that close. She will often shield in response, and I feel like I can't hit turnip throw oos for some reason after I have spaced the nair on her shield. I often try dtilting afterwards to try and hit her wd, but when she throws the turnip I often catch it by accident and eat a punish. Are there different things I can try when peach is shielding with a turnip? I feel like this situation is really good for me but I haven't been able to capitalize on it.
btw
Kotastic
I played faceroll for awhile this weekend since he came to Houston, was really interesting to play him after watching yall's sets for awhile. I got messed up a lot but I feel like I learned quite a bit too. He's amazing LOL
Yeah that's how that works. It's a great mixup. You can pivot Fair or pivot SH then Fair if he lands to pressure/hit him or don't swing if he jumps so you can prepare to challenge his next play. You can also dash/run/WD under him as he's going toward you and then grab his landing or try to Uair/Fair his DJ.Couple questions about different matchups
when fox does an approaching fh towards me in neutral, and I dash back to cover it, is it hard to differentiate between him landing with an aerial and him using his dj as he's getting close to landing? I have trouble dealing with this mixup out of my dash away, since I feel like I can only cover one of them, and if I guess wrong I'm either punished or I lose stage.
when peach has a turnip in her hand, a lot of the time I find myself nairing at her when I'm closer to her and I couldn't wd dtilt in time since it will beat throwing it at me that close. She will often shield in response, and I feel like I can't hit turnip throw oos for some reason after I have spaced the nair on her shield. I often try dtilting afterwards to try and hit her wd, but when she throws the turnip I often catch it by accident and eat a punish. Are there different things I can try when peach is shielding with a turnip? I feel like this situation is really good for me but I haven't been able to capitalize on it.
btw
I like grabbing her since it could make her drop the turnip or just open her up for more punishes. If you're close enough to Dtilt make sure you're at least spaced a bit so she can't turnip throw dsmash/DA easily if you do grab it. Part of success with this is predicting a possible turnip grab. If you do grab a turnip you'll probably need to move away and throw it or something, so it's better to hit her as she starts to throw. It may help to hit a lower Nair so you have more advantage.
Make friends, ask questions, record matches when possible, learn your limits to grinding.
YoungNastyMann
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Jan 14, 2019
- Messages
- 1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlfPR0I9a1w
any tips? (other than the obviously choked edgeguards)
any tips? (other than the obviously choked edgeguards)
Reyjavik
Smash Apprentice
So I have been lazy in practicing really. Not prac tech skill or just playing friendlies.
When I do focus now, the one thing that is bugging me is how to act faster in reading an opponent/feeling out.
It takes me a bit to understand better players gameplans and I want to be able to get and understanding/feel out players faster at the start of matches.
Leading into my main topic of discussion:
How do you all know when to overshoot/undershoot? I've been particularly focusing on that when I start to lose in games and sometimes it works in adjusting or it doesn't
When I do focus now, the one thing that is bugging me is how to act faster in reading an opponent/feeling out.
It takes me a bit to understand better players gameplans and I want to be able to get and understanding/feel out players faster at the start of matches.
Leading into my main topic of discussion:
How do you all know when to overshoot/undershoot? I've been particularly focusing on that when I start to lose in games and sometimes it works in adjusting or it doesn't
First things I noticed were DI and confidence. You played very scared and were constantly mis-spacing by undershooting your aerials as well as messing up at ends of games
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I only give advice when people link specific situations.
I overshoot when I can confirm them moving back or when I can space to hit them moving back or in place like with certain Dtilts. Sometimes I'll predict it but that's less common as it's risky. Undershooting I like doing with Fair in many matchups as it lets me control space safely and can help me take it as well.
Kotastic
Smash Ace
I'm ranked in SoCal, omggggg!!
The grind still continues for me; thanks for the continual advice pp.
The grind still continues for me; thanks for the continual advice pp.
Number 17, solidly getting on there! Keep going man =)
Kotastic
Smash Ace
Uhhh nowadays i just do notes in my head since it's faster. I don't like a lot of my old analysis, but I'm usually open analyzing other ppl if they request it.
A lot of my improvement came from thinking abstractly, have everything i do with relative purpose, and questioning stuff with further optimizations. Analyzing is something i don't do that often nowadays since i don't find it as helpful as the other methods i do to improve.
A lot of my improvement came from thinking abstractly, have everything i do with relative purpose, and questioning stuff with further optimizations. Analyzing is something i don't do that often nowadays since i don't find it as helpful as the other methods i do to improve.
AirFair
Marth tho
How would you describe your abstract way of thinking? I try and look at things in the framework of different parts of the game that I can improve, and I was wondering what you might be examining.
Kotastic
Smash Ace
I guess i would describe my abstract thinking by thinking of various concepts, visualize how it should ideally run in my head, and then actually testing them in friendlies and note whatever. I get said ideas from information here, some analysis, group chat ideas, my own ideas, etc..
If I really get stuck, then I consult here.
If I really get stuck, then I consult here.
AirFair
Marth tho
Yeah I think I do some things pretty similarly to that, I understand what you are saying.
Congrats on your ranking again, and I'm glad you're a part of this thread.
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ggz! Happy for you man
RedmanSSBM
Improving My Process
I recently had SleepyK analyze a match of me playing vs. a Falcon and something that he mentioned was that I think about the game too linearly, as in my decision making comes off as being too linear and predictable. Basically, it goes like this:
If my decision worked, I should do it again.
If my decision didn't work, I should do something different.
I can work on practicing the opposite of this in friendlies as a form of experimentation:
If my decision worked, I should do something different
If my decision didn't work, I should do it again.
These sound stupid in theory but they are also unexpected. There also might be more to this than just these 4 different situations in the game when it comes to decision making.
So I have 2 questions that stem from this:
1: Is a good strategy for being less predictable in this decision making would be to practice doing the opposite decisions that I normally do in friendlies? If it's something so ingrained in me I wonder if trying to do the opposite all the time as a way to force myself to make different decisions would help, or would it be better to sprinkle in opposite decisions I feel? Something else perhaps? I feel like this would take a lot of mental discipline but I feel like that is what friendlies can be used for.
2: Even with just 4 different ways to make decisions in the game based on 2 different outcomes, I feel like there is a lot more nuance in this regard and that I am missing something. Is there a 5th decision to be made? Or more than that? I think a different perspective for this issue would help me to figure out how I can improve my decision making in the long run.
If my decision worked, I should do it again.
If my decision didn't work, I should do something different.
I can work on practicing the opposite of this in friendlies as a form of experimentation:
If my decision worked, I should do something different
If my decision didn't work, I should do it again.
These sound stupid in theory but they are also unexpected. There also might be more to this than just these 4 different situations in the game when it comes to decision making.
So I have 2 questions that stem from this:
1: Is a good strategy for being less predictable in this decision making would be to practice doing the opposite decisions that I normally do in friendlies? If it's something so ingrained in me I wonder if trying to do the opposite all the time as a way to force myself to make different decisions would help, or would it be better to sprinkle in opposite decisions I feel? Something else perhaps? I feel like this would take a lot of mental discipline but I feel like that is what friendlies can be used for.
2: Even with just 4 different ways to make decisions in the game based on 2 different outcomes, I feel like there is a lot more nuance in this regard and that I am missing something. Is there a 5th decision to be made? Or more than that? I think a different perspective for this issue would help me to figure out how I can improve my decision making in the long run.
1. Sure, but it would probably help to have specifics in mind going into a session, or developing them quickly while playing.
2. Asking "why" is probably the simplest way I could say what you need to do there. If you do that, then various factors such as space or time or percent could change whether you even engage at all in the same situation, which is certainly another decision.
2. Asking "why" is probably the simplest way I could say what you need to do there. If you do that, then various factors such as space or time or percent could change whether you even engage at all in the same situation, which is certainly another decision.
Reyjavik
Smash Apprentice
So idk if its netplay or just my poor reaction skills but I feel its super hard to di fox's upthrow off the cuff.
I've worked a ton on smash di lately and I've been getting way more consistent in it especially for fox upair. However I struggle in implementing it in other places.
Fox I feel is so fast that one dash dance whiff punish does so much against marth.
How do you escape shine dash upthrow from fox? I've been trying to di shine, buffer roll, but I can't seem to do anything after that first shine as it just leads into upair chain
I've worked a ton on smash di lately and I've been getting way more consistent in it especially for fox upair. However I struggle in implementing it in other places.
Fox I feel is so fast that one dash dance whiff punish does so much against marth.
How do you escape shine dash upthrow from fox? I've been trying to di shine, buffer roll, but I can't seem to do anything after that first shine as it just leads into upair chain
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If he does run cancel shine then he can grab no matter what. If he does regular shine WD toward you then DI the shine away and dash away should be easy enough to help you dodge the grab. If you're unsure you can get away then you can just prepare to DI the throw.
Reyjavik
Smash Apprentice
Yea I wasn't sure if that was true confirm for run cancel shine. I guess I need to work on SDIing drill to reduce on those opportunities.
That's what I've been trying to do, DI away or down and away. Dashing I don't think I've been implementing as much but need to outside of falco lasers which I feel I'm much better at dealing with/mixing up approaches against.
I was watching your evo 2015 match against Armada and noticed how even you were shine dash grabbed.
What would you say is optimal di/sdi against fox shine? I know falco shine di but have been unsure as Marth in where to di
So I lost a set to a troll in bracket and it tilted me so hard. All he did was pick puff or sheik and just ledge camped for the entire game and gave a running commentary of what he was doing which consisted of ledge camping and I'm not sure what to do like I couldn't really hit him with anything and if I try and missed I get punished and then he goes straight back to ledge if I just stayed at tipper range or farther he just continues to stay on the ledge and waits for me to do something so aside from it being really annoying how do you deal with someone who is just going to do that? Or how do you punish someone who just refreshes invincibility over and over?
Generally you want to DI away.
Get near edge in a position to either hit him or take edge. If he gets up then do a setup that can let you hit him. If he seems content to stay on the edge then hit him there or take it. The main thing is to practice getting into position to threaten with a quick WD to edge, so it helps to be turned around. You just need to be spaced so you're not only covering edge.
I occasionally do, but if I need to dash and do it then I'm more likely to use C stick. I kind of switch.
Kotastic
Smash Ace
I think I've really internalized the purpose of WD dtilt in the past week, and combining it with WD back to create some fakes, bully them on the ground, and observation notes to really capitalize my opponents in the air. It really feels like I'm very connected with the tool right now with the purpose very clear to me.
I can't say the same right now for dash dancing. For now, I just see dashes as an extension of maneuvering WD dtilt and also just to quickly reposition to dodge attacks and all. I can dash immediately aerial, but it's from WD dtilt that I've observed/conditioned my opponent to jump where I find the use of dash aerial. I've had some ideas with dash dancing such as rhythm and all, but I don't think it's reliable for me right now and what I truly threaten off of dashes alone is very unclear to me. I guess I can also dash back pivot fair, but I think I have more utility by just WD back instead.
It's funny how I've been viewing Falco's lasers as Marth's dtilt the past week and it was a gamechanger for me. So much more concepts became clearer to me and dash dancing with Falco actually makes sense to me because each dash could represent a dash --> jump laser which guarantees a response from my opponent, at least the way of how I play Falco. I think it's kind of ironic that I still don't know what would garner a response with dash dancing Marth despite playing him for years now. Hell, just WD back and forth makes more sense than dashing back and forth lol.
I can't say the same right now for dash dancing. For now, I just see dashes as an extension of maneuvering WD dtilt and also just to quickly reposition to dodge attacks and all. I can dash immediately aerial, but it's from WD dtilt that I've observed/conditioned my opponent to jump where I find the use of dash aerial. I've had some ideas with dash dancing such as rhythm and all, but I don't think it's reliable for me right now and what I truly threaten off of dashes alone is very unclear to me. I guess I can also dash back pivot fair, but I think I have more utility by just WD back instead.
It's funny how I've been viewing Falco's lasers as Marth's dtilt the past week and it was a gamechanger for me. So much more concepts became clearer to me and dash dancing with Falco actually makes sense to me because each dash could represent a dash --> jump laser which guarantees a response from my opponent, at least the way of how I play Falco. I think it's kind of ironic that I still don't know what would garner a response with dash dancing Marth despite playing him for years now. Hell, just WD back and forth makes more sense than dashing back and forth lol.
Reyjavik
Smash Apprentice
I honestly have been feeling the same with DDing. I can't really threaten without getting punished and use dashdancing successfully more so when doing tech chasing. Interesting take on Dtilt=Lasers
I never thought about how important DD->lasers are.
How do you generally approach now that you understand how integral dtilts are? I haven't had as much success lately in my integration of it.
I however have been more successful in the ditto/threatening falling opponents with it. Esp in ditto where I can CC fairs after I send them up, and then hit them with a dtilt to punish poor landing into punish.
Dash could turn to run, which could turn to RC Dtilt. The end idea is the same: use the threat of Dtilt to expand your threat zone. This means you can move in and let threats happen for you. Anyway, dashing minimally and WD'ing more is easier in some matchups than others, but minimalism in general is what you're looking for. If you can find ways to dash to supplement your WD game, such as using it to dash in and do various aerials in place or retreating etc or to reposition your WD, then I think that is good for now. Looking for what dash is connected to and how to move simply to threaten that would also be useful though should you want to explore this more.
JustCallMeJon
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2017
- Messages
- 1,072
- Location
- Editing posts after posting posts...
- 3DS FC
- 3067-7373-5050
- Switch FC
- SW 4274 8573 0226
2019
— Kevin Nanney (@PPMD) January 18, 2019
Read: https://t.co/b5qwo1Nzru
You are coming back to stream on March-May? Oh wow I really want to see your Falco once again, its been 2015!
Don't expect fully top level gameplay unless I am all the way better, but I do think it will be fun no matter what =)
I honestly am so stoked to see you coming back. A lot of the people I actively play with doubted but I knew that one day the Sage of Melee would once again descend from his mountain in Norcal to spread his knowledge to the world! Jokes aside though I'm looking forward to your return and can't wait to learn even more from you in the future you are an inspiration to me and a great teacher.
Also when you're in shield as marth and a space animal is doing their shield pressure what do you look for when deciding what direction to shield di in?
Haha well thanks man. I knew there was a lot of doubt but it was very understandable. I also knew I'd be able to prove them wrong some day, even if that day isn't here just yet. I still know it.
Generally shield DI away is fine at first and then they may change up their pressure with delays or deeper aerials and such. So I'd say opt for away generally and then look for the new holes they give when they adapt.
Generally shield DI away is fine at first and then they may change up their pressure with delays or deeper aerials and such. So I'd say opt for away generally and then look for the new holes they give when they adapt.
Kotastic
Smash Ace
Needs some thoughts clarified in the puff mu.
When I think of Marth engaging in air-to-air combat with an opponent, ideally I think Marth wins, which is true especially within SH range/distance where typically fair/nair wins cleanly. I think that's the case vs Puff if I can decipher when Puff will SH bair and win with my aerials. This gets hazy though when puff FH's and/or just hangs in there in the air with her multiple jumps. I'm unsure if Marth can beat Puff above SH range straight-up, so I think the answer is to somehow call out her landings by watching their habits of landing. I've tried crossing under puff like how I would crossup spacies FH, but it's not quite as simple since again puff can just jump 5 more times. How would you recommend dealing with puff in the air where I can't exactly beat her straight-up?
There's also the matter of puff calling me out with pound which I don't entirely understand yet. It must be used to call out my ground movement. I'm thinking pound can be stuffed out by my aerials, but this gets confusing again when puff hangs there in the air with FH/DJ so it's not as simple as I think it is.
Regarding juggling puff and being "diagonal" towards her, do you SH at the drift you think she's going? Her aerial drift is fast, so is it required to get the dash momentum to at least catch both of her drifts?
When I think of Marth engaging in air-to-air combat with an opponent, ideally I think Marth wins, which is true especially within SH range/distance where typically fair/nair wins cleanly. I think that's the case vs Puff if I can decipher when Puff will SH bair and win with my aerials. This gets hazy though when puff FH's and/or just hangs in there in the air with her multiple jumps. I'm unsure if Marth can beat Puff above SH range straight-up, so I think the answer is to somehow call out her landings by watching their habits of landing. I've tried crossing under puff like how I would crossup spacies FH, but it's not quite as simple since again puff can just jump 5 more times. How would you recommend dealing with puff in the air where I can't exactly beat her straight-up?
There's also the matter of puff calling me out with pound which I don't entirely understand yet. It must be used to call out my ground movement. I'm thinking pound can be stuffed out by my aerials, but this gets confusing again when puff hangs there in the air with FH/DJ so it's not as simple as I think it is.
Regarding juggling puff and being "diagonal" towards her, do you SH at the drift you think she's going? Her aerial drift is fast, so is it required to get the dash momentum to at least catch both of her drifts?
You can beat her if she's higher up with FH/DJ Fair/Uair/Bair. But of course she could dodge. This is basically the problem. You must influence her to beat her, and you can influence by threatening from below with SH, or movement before a potential FH, etc. It helps to learn how Puffs drift and where they like to be positioned as well. They often go back and forth, and often just at or outside of where you can quickly lunge and hit them. This means you may need to adjust that spacing. It can also mean counting their jumps, because they often won't act quickly but won't burn all of their jumps either. It's just like learning how opponents lower to the ground move when you move and shift your threat range. You can call out landings too, but sniping her out of the air is important because it gives you more threatening positions.
You can shield pound or move away from it as well. If you find yourself getting caught by pound a lot, you may be waiting for an opening too much.
You can shield pound or move away from it as well. If you find yourself getting caught by pound a lot, you may be waiting for an opening too much.
Reyjavik
Smash Apprentice
So I've been cleaning my game up a ton after discussions with people in my scene and on here. The one thing I felt was really good in improving my game was how I approached percents and movement. I was previously struggling with what I perceived as limited options with marth in certain matchups, namely trying to go for grabs. I wasn't taking my tech chasing game as seriously as I can and my friend helped my realize how important it is to capitalize off of grabs in tech chasing situations, both on stage and on platforms.
One question I have is using movement to augment moves, namely grab. How wise is it to dash dance then fish for a grab by wavedashing? I'm seeing much better punishes now that I'm retooling my punish and grab game but feel I might just be lucky with my outmaneuvering with dashdance+WD.
What I mean is I could be on other side of stage and opponent has center. I DD trying to bait out any aerials but then WD in with long WD and go for grab.
I just feel I might be getting away with very nooby/cheap grabs that won't help improve game in long run
One question I have is using movement to augment moves, namely grab. How wise is it to dash dance then fish for a grab by wavedashing? I'm seeing much better punishes now that I'm retooling my punish and grab game but feel I might just be lucky with my outmaneuvering with dashdance+WD.
What I mean is I could be on other side of stage and opponent has center. I DD trying to bait out any aerials but then WD in with long WD and go for grab.
I just feel I might be getting away with very nooby/cheap grabs that won't help improve game in long run
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That's an okay strategy, but if you only ever WD dash grab then your opponent will begin countering after seeing WD since there's a lot of time to react. So you may want to WD into other things as well to mix it up.