Hey
Dr Peepee
When I think about myself playing a match against someone more than slightly above my level and beyond, and I don't really mean this negatively but it's true and a testament to what I'll mention in a bit...I feel stupid. The challenges that are being presented to me are more than I can currently handle because my current framework for ideas to work with in the game are not compatible to fit with the possibility of beating the opponent. After a long time spent with really hating this, I've stared at this fact and realized it can kind of be a blessing. I feel that I have a lot of raw tech skill, and I've been told that my tech/movement is very unrefined and I agree, but I didn't really understand at the same time what unrefined meant. But I think I have an idea, which ties into my goals for improvement. If I have all this 'raw' tech skill, and I go into a match with only a vague idea of what to try to do against players better than me, then I get bodied, and it's like I'm just pressing buttons with not a whole lot of purpose, or purpose that would only be of use to players at around my skill level. It feels like I'm playing the same way that I'm practicing raw tech skill except that its a tournament match and there's an opponent on the stage with me. Also, it feels like I'm still thinking sometimes too much during my matches, so I want to get my purpose defined well enough where I don't have to think anymore than what would be necessary. I think I'm doing good moves for good moves sake...which miiiight maybe be slightly better sometimes than not knowing what the good moves are and running around aimlessly and might sometimes work in some matchups against not the greatest players, but it's far from doing good things because you're a good player. Purpose is something that's hardly ever documented anywhere other than this thread lol... So I also think that punish game and neutral are kind of intertwined. What I go for in neutral could be related/the same as what I'd go for as a punish if that makes sense? Does knowing what to look for to punish with whether as a hard punish that leads to big damage or stage advantage or a little punish/psuedo combo like with dtilts or dashing forward-wavedash back lead into what to do in neutral? Edit number 9000: lets say as an example a marth is fighting luigi, and the marth wants to dash dance a lot. Conventional knowledge of marth v luigi is to use fair and dtilt in neutral a lot and to not move as much. Is the dash dancing OK as long as it leads eventually into fair and dtilt, as long as it leads into what is known to work usually against the character? In matchups where you say you dont want to move as much, I see you move a fair bit. Is it that you're breaking the rules because you know the rules well? (I told myself I would leave this post as is like 10 sentences ago but the further the rabit hole I go the more questions I have). In a tournament set I move less when I feel scared. The more confident I feel the more I move and the better I feel. I want to get to the point to where I can have that more often than not. What's really blowing my mind right now is that in situations I see you in that I would be put in, you're hardly shielding at all. You keep moving, or at least stay actionable. I find myself way more scared like a deer in headlights more often than I feel confident enough to move around. This is really apparent in matchups like Sheik, Samus, the Mario bros including luigi, and climbers, which are matchups I find myself swinging a lot in and staying behind my shield, and matchups I see a lot of players do the same in, but not as much from you. And maybe you would advocate moving less in those matchups and that's probably fine, but you make quite the case for moving and it looks like that's fine too as long as it leads to something worth while.
Ok, so thinking about the question of
Kotastic
you answered about guaranteed stuff, about fighting back if you fall behind and interacting...I think one of the risks of learning to interact with the opponent is that if you interact and you're wrong, it could probably lead to you getting punished hard or wobbled or something. Which I think is what I sometimes try to do in tournament when that's probably not the time and place to learn such a thing that if not done well leads to losing a lot. So if Marth is designed the way he is, is there a particular range/ranges you'd want to be at when playing close to the opponent because his sword range is so long? Like...imagine that I'm Marth against Sheik and I'm on the other side of the stage as her. I'm dash dancing and she's doing sheik stuff, and I'm fairing and nairing and whatever zoning stuff you can think of. The threat isn't really there. We're too far apart. We get closer...the threats become more apparent. I get closer...then I get too close and then it's like I'm over doing it, then I've faired her shield at the wrong space and she hits me. I guess what I'm asking about is like finding some sort of sweet spot where I could purposefully use my tools to my advantage while being able to react to them/zone them/keep them guessing. I guess any matchup could be used as an example. I don't want to always be too far away where my tools are aimless, but not too close to where I'm overextending too far or putting out hitboxes that land in inopportune spots. Thinking about the opponent, they're also doing things at a certain distance like throwing out hitboxes, putting up shields, dash dancing, looking for openings. But it's like...among all of that it looks like theres purpose behind it, but if there's not a whole lot of purpose behind my play, and I'm able to beat people and win sometimes, how is it that I'm winning? I have no idea where this question is going since it might take a bit more posts to flesh this out here, but I guess what I'm asking about is Purpose with a capital P.. It's like, the opponent is also doing as much as they can to make it difficult for me to get things started, and so am I, and the level at which they make it more difficult raises with skill level it seems. The tools remain the same, but the purpose and use behind the tools deepens, and real expert use of those tools looks simple on the surface but to get there seems like a real complex endeavor. Getting there, developing those uses and purposes is the question. I might not be in the place to say this because i'm not at the level but even at high level play like top 25-20-or 15, sometimes you'll see some stuff that doesn't look like it had a ton of use behind it, which is why probably so few players win as much as Armada or Leffen or PPMD (you lol) did, and sometimes those players will get upset losses. Also when watching somebody like you or armada who have these skills, it looks like you're reading or manipulating the opponents mind. With low/mid level/unrefined play I guess of any level, it looks like they're like...kind of making (and I want to tread carefully while stating these things about players as respectfully though critically as I can. Not to say that I understand enough to where I can critique players way better than me.) guesses that are only slightly more than uneducated, almost like hopeful guesses? I'm not exactly sure what to call it but it does not look as 'neat' as play coming from the top. Thoughts?
And finally, what are your thoughts on a stigma against playing neutral game? it's not a huge topic in melee politics but in some circles and with some players it's something that's brought up, like it's wrong to play neutral for too long or that constantly going in is more favored.
LMFAO oh boy this will be quite a challenge to hit every point as you mentioned very many things. I hope you'll forgive me for not responding to everything here as I think that could do more harm than good. I believe I'll focus on the idea of purpose and then tie in other things as I can.
Firstly, I would like to say that you're having a very self-aware moment with this post. The honesty in saying you feel you're just doing things to do them, moving some, guessing...this is something most players of any level will never admit. This is not to be understated, as the link between your mental state and growth can often be closely linked.
What is a purposeful Fair? It is one that incorporates a ton of training, testing, trust in the tool, thinking of how it works mechanically(will come back to this), and thereby how it affects the opponent. When I tell you to WD over and over, I'm not being rude. I do it too. The point is to get the tool so deeply into your muscle memory it can become automatic, like breathing. Most people don't practice enough, or do it recklessly, or stop once improvement is seen. Do not underestimate practice. What does a Fair beat? Maybe many things, maybe less things depending on how you use it(late early mid, retreating advancing in place, etc) and what position you use it from. If you are inside Fox SH Nair distance, at what point does your immediate Fair in place lose? What about retreating Fair? What about mid or late Fair? If you hope to be a competitive player, you'd better find answers to these questions in as much detail as possible, such as leaving room for reaction or one of you acting early. Now do this for every matchup, different percent ranges, and different tools. This is how you build a game plan and an understanding of what each tool does. Dashing around is pointless if you aren't often setting up ranges for these interactions you've tested.
Speaking of me moving around, as a quick aside I disagree with how much I moved vs ICs(for example) in my recorded matches. You can technically still make it work as an overall strategy, but moving is better as a mixup compared to a main play.
Now for what I view as potentially the most important/underlooked thing. You want to mechanically dissect your Fair. This means looking at the SH(squat, drift, FF timing, analog jumping, etc) and the move itself(startup, cooldown, active frames and hitboxes,, etc). You want to approach the tool as freshly as you can, thinking of what you can do with it. Fair is an arcing, not constant hitbox for example, so it's spotty for protection. If timed decently the disjoint can beat out most moves. SH means you're doing this in the air, so the move takes longer to get to the ground. Etc etc. If done well, you now have a greater grasp of how to use the tool and can begin innovating on the fly if need be using this fundamental knowledge. Also your opponent will feel the effects of your Fair and will have to readjust. Based on your positional knowledge and understanding of the tool, you can now be informed about how they might beat it both positionally and with what moves based on your study. This can help you cut off their positional play, beat their next option, and generally have an advance read on them. This is how top players do what they do, though I would imagine most would prioritize positional understanding.
If you do this for all matchups and as many positions as you can think of, and you practice well, then your purposefulness WILL improve. The only reason it may not as much as you'd like is if your mind is affected by things such as diet or emotional concerns or other factors that impact your mind. You may need to adjust this process to some extent so that it works best for you, so stay diligent.
Thinking about what to beat and what do is all done before the match and in practice/friendlies, so in tourney you should rely on that knowledge to get you through and then think heavily in between stocks/matches as needed. Friendlies are also for practicing serious mode, so be sure to get both.
Purpose is a deep awareness of positions and tools, stemming from conscious knowledge that goes so deep as to become subconscious and effective knowledge.
For your second question about Kotastic's question, your positional practice and mapping out exactly what you can do and whether it wins or loses will help. If you have a safe play from a farther distance, then you don't have to go for it always. If you have a decently safe but threatening position from closer, you'd want to find that and learn your options there so you can play well there. There is still much between TR and hitting the inside of shield.
I'll stop there for now despite leaving out some specifics. I'd like to know what you think.
I've been doing some visualization lately and I think it's been helping me to be more mentally prepared for tournament situations.
I imagine myself being at a large out of state tournament, in a bracket pool with my last match to make it out of pools on losers side. I've been here numerous times before and here I am with a 3 stock to 1 lead in the first game because I realize I am playing really well and shutting down my opponent's attempts to stop me. Knowing that I have a significant lead, I start to feel hopeful that I will finally make it out of pools at a major out of state tournament, that I'll finally prove to myself that I can do something. But in this moment of mental lapse on achieving a goal before I have completed it, I play much more sloppy and unfocused, and nearly lose the first game. Now I'm on edge. I wasn't respecting my opponent at first and they nearly made a 3-stock comeback on me. Even though I am up a game I'm suddenly scared of my opponent's ability to adapt to me. This thought is stuck with me for all of game 2 and I flub punish after punish due to lack of focus. I lose game 2 and now all I want is to not lose. "I'm so close to making it out! I can't lose now! Why can't I focus?" A sense of panic starts to seep in. My heart is beating at a million miles an hour and my mouth has that incredibly dry sensation when I'm really nervous. Game 3 I get a lead but only for so long. The whole game goes back and forth until the end where it's last stock, I have a slight lead in percent but the threat of losing is still very real to me. "This is it" I tell myself, "I have to finish it here so I can make it out, if I don't then I lose and it's over." Suddenly I realize I have control and am beginning a punish on my opponent. He begins to get nervous. Next thing I know in the middle of the combo I whiff an aerial that allows him to escape and counter-attack, now he is the one punishing me on my last stock. The panic has fully settled in at this point. I'm on full alert to not lose this match and now in the midst of being punished all I can think about is "God I hope he messes this up." In my desperation to get out of the combo, I attempt to double jump at a point that looked good for escape, but if I maintained focus I could have seen that I needed to hold out for a little longer. I lose my double jump. I'm off stage. My fate is sealed. I can't get back onto stage and I'm losing this match. GAME!
My opponent says "GGs", fist bumps me, and then unplugs his controller and is on his way to report the result of the match. I'm sitting there, still shaking and heart still beating, but now I'm entranced in a state of self-deprecating thoughts. Mentally beating myself up over losing a match that I felt like I should have won. I feel the effort that I put into practice slip away as I played because I let my mind slip and lose focus. I have failed myself and my mindset, and now all I want to do is sulk in a corner.
This is one of those visualizations that expounds upon my greatest fears when I put myself on the line for competition. It's a feeling I have gone through many times before and it's one that I fear, even now. Even when I am relaxed at this computer typing these sentences, I was able to replicate a sense of that fear that this situation would produce. I felt a sense of nervousness inside me and even a little rise in my heartbeat by doing visualization like this. By visualizing it in this way though, I feel like I can be more prepared for when the starting signs of this situation happens. I can think about how to refocus myself when I put myself in that mental space.
I would believe that this is one of the ways that I could do mental preparation for tournament, through this visualization. I feel like this is the right direction to take but I am unsure if the process is sound or if there are flaws. Please let me know if there is something I could be doing to get more out of this, or if I need to change my process.
Well I do like that you're exposing yourself to the situation, that's very good and repeatedly shown to help. However I'd modify it a bit and find the moments of pain and see if you can change them to positive ones. How would you think and feel then? Notice specifically the emotions and just as importantly the thoughts that try to stop you. Don't fight them. Engage with them and make peace with them. Then you can begin building a new, positive visualization.
