Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Kotastic]

I'm relatively sure that a frame perfect shield grab can grab the hilt of dtilt. However in today's meta, this is further exasperated with CC run up grab to beat the weak dtilt anyways. I've been substituting those both with run up grab to beat both options if I read those options. Dtilt is still good because of the threat it still presents and forcing the opponent to respond a certain way, like run up shield/cc.

 

[Reyjavik]

yea I've been working on intent with downtilt and proper spacing with it if anyone hasn't read my previous posts.
Its crazy how much variation you can perform with the move but also the inner eye of when to use.

 

[Plumpet]

I'm relatively sure that a frame perfect shield grab can grab the hilt of dtilt. However in today's meta, this is further exasperated with CC run up grab to beat the weak dtilt anyways. I've been substituting those both with run up grab to beat both options if I read those options. Dtilt is still good because of the threat it still presents and forcing the opponent to respond a certain way, like run up shield/cc.

Yeah I’ve been doing grab in response as well. Just sucks that dtilt feels really unsafe unless you can read where they’ll be so you can tipper it

 

[Kotastic]

While you are correct that this makes Marth's dtilt weaker in that sense, this is more than made up for with Marth's general movement. For example, you can feint a WD dtilt but then WD back to see how the opponent responds to the dtilt. Then you'd know that in a similar situation if the opponent responds by trying to shield/cc, run up grab is very likely to work instead of dtilt.

Also, standing dtilt is more likely to beat shield/CC though still whiff punishable.

 

[VMPR]

How do you do the f throw> fair/nair to cover tech in place/missed tech> grab roll i cant seem to get it and successfully cover all the options. maybe im doing something wrong with my drift or something ? ive seen m2k do the fair and turn around grab armada with out having to dash and ive been trying to figure it out. can you grab the tech roll away across the stage if its not in the corner ? does it work on sheik and cover her unreactable neutral tech tech roll in mix up. do i have to dash vs some characters and just turn around vs others? any help is appreciated ive spent hours in uncle punch and 20xx and i dont get it lol

 

[Dr Peepee]

M2K mainly gets it to work against Peach, and it's not that effective vs other characters unless they don't tech roll away. If Peach techs away I forget if that can be grabbed but I think it can with pretty good reaction. For Sheik, it probably depends more on her percent and DI since she falls faster than Peach, so saying one way or another is easier ignores a lot of nuance. You'd have to standardize testing to see what percents to go for it where it works on all DIs and techs ideally.

 

[Kotastic]

Here's swedish yelling at me in the marth sheik mu if anyone cares about watching that https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mh4CIZeSGCc

Some random question I have is how do you think of Zain's fair here, particularly when S2J naired OoS the rising fair? https://youtu.be/29BvGNMMjc8?t=654

 

[RedmanSSBM]

I feel like if you're going to dtilt someone's shield and it isn't a tipper dtilt, it should just be a grab instead. That Zain vs S2J clip looks like Zain got S2J to shield when he was using aerials so S2J waited in shield for an opportunity to counter attack out of shield since Zain was so close. Zain had conditioned him to shield so I think Zain grabbing him as a mixup wouldn't have been a bad idea. Falcon's spot dodge is so slow that I would think you could just grab again if he spot dodges your grab attempt, but if he isn't expecting the grab and for you to just keep attacking, then the grab should come as a surprise.

Correct me if I'm wrong on any of this.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Here's swedish yelling at me in the marth sheik mu if anyone cares about watching that https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mh4CIZeSGCc

Some random question I have is how do you think of Zain's fair here, particularly when S2J naired OoS the rising fair? https://youtu.be/29BvGNMMjc8?t=654

Hmmm that does tell me that mid Fairs or slight retreating early Fairs may be better against shielding Falcon. I'll have to test it. Important to note though that his initial Fairs were not getting punished. I suppose run up Nair may be better if you can afford the extra running time to get closer. Fair is still great though you just have to watch your spacing.

I feel like if you're going to dtilt someone's shield and it isn't a tipper dtilt, it should just be a grab instead. That Zain vs S2J clip looks like Zain got S2J to shield when he was using aerials so S2J waited in shield for an opportunity to counter attack out of shield since Zain was so close. Zain had conditioned him to shield so I think Zain grabbing him as a mixup wouldn't have been a bad idea. Falcon's spot dodge is so slow that I would think you could just grab again if he spot dodges your grab attempt, but if he isn't expecting the grab and for you to just keep attacking, then the grab should come as a surprise.

Correct me if I'm wrong on any of this.

Marth doesn't necessarily need to grab when he has the opponent in shield. It can sometimes be better to stay spaced, since the grab can be beaten but spacing cannot. You want grabs to truly be a mixup or something the opponent will have a hard time seeing coming, so making them more sparing and working on improving base pressure is a great thing to do. Grabs give more immediate reward usually(not always if the opponent can slideoff or is at an unfavorable percent though) but the hits and better positions that come from pressure can be more mentally damaging, lead to grabs that won't be DI'd soon, and make your movements much more intimidating.

That being said, I have liked empty hop a lot for pressure as it could lead to Dtilt, pivot grab/Fair if they attack OOS, or just grabbing if you land close to them(though dash JC grab can be fine too). I'm not opposed to grabs of course, but we must remember what makes Marth strong and abuse that and not just tunnel vision the big damage.

 

[Plumpet]

When a sheik is jumping but drifting backwards, what is usually the best option? I try to fair sometimes but it feels a lot harder than when she's not drifting/drifting in. I also tried just taking space, but a lot of sheiks will needle grab me, so I'm usually forced to retreat. I've been liking WD dtilt on her landing, but it's not much of a reward. Maybe dash attack would be better?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Fair isn't super easy to hit there like you said but if you can get it then it's good. And if you move in then you may want to be just out of range of those needles, or going for WD Dtilt as you said. DA can be shield grabbed or held down on which are concerns that Dtilt doesn't have, but the reward is better so that's at your own discretion. I find hitting Sheik and pushing her damage up helps with my other punishes anyway and can often make her flail and give me an opening more often than not too.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Yesterday I played 10 or so ranked matches on netplay and came to remember how different of a mentality I have when playing in a best of 3 compared to playing just friendlies. I play very differently in a ranked set because I still have the fear of losing affect me, and it clouds my thinking when playing the game. As I kept playing more ranked netplay though, I was starting to feel a little more in control of my thoughts, even if the sense of fear never really went away.

Would you think that continuing to mindfully grind out ranked netplay will help with overcoming this sense of fear? I have a hunch that I just need to get used to the feeling of playing matches that matter and trying to remind myself of my gameplan, but I would like to know if there's other routes that directly help with this.

 

[peedy]

Hey PP it's been a while but I've been working on other things to try to improve myself to improve my melee. I have a random question for you. Do you know of a way to increase the amount of sensory information. This seems to be extremely important for athletes. Note this is different from focus and attention which is still important on its own. I think meditation would help with this but I'm wondering if there are other ways

On a melee note Jiggs #1 on Leffens tier list? I don't think he's joking (although he claims that Hbox does not play ledge like this super puff so I don't think this is a diss towards Hbox) Thoughts?

Also on my last and third note. Is there a way to improve reaction time. I know with practice your reactions can get better but honestly, I feel like there has to be another way. Every time I research things on reaction time people tend to be extremely vague and not talk about the brain mechanisms that may underly reaction time. Have you ever done any in-depth research into this? I feel frustrated because people always talk about how it's genetic with no proof. Do you have an understanding of the mechanisms that underly our reactions

 

[Dr Peepee]

Yesterday I played 10 or so ranked matches on netplay and came to remember how different of a mentality I have when playing in a best of 3 compared to playing just friendlies. I play very differently in a ranked set because I still have the fear of losing affect me, and it clouds my thinking when playing the game. As I kept playing more ranked netplay though, I was starting to feel a little more in control of my thoughts, even if the sense of fear never really went away.

Would you think that continuing to mindfully grind out ranked netplay will help with overcoming this sense of fear? I have a hunch that I just need to get used to the feeling of playing matches that matter and trying to remind myself of my gameplan, but I would like to know if there's other routes that directly help with this.

I think it would help, but for some it won't go away fully and some it will. Directly addressing the root cause of the fear can help. Doing other things to help calm yourself like meditation or exercise can help. Sometimes things like fixing your posture or keeping your breathing regular can have an oddly large impact on your mind, or basically encouraging relaxation. It is all worth experimenting with.

Hey PP it's been a while but I've been working on other things to try to improve myself to improve my melee. I have a random question for you. Do you know of a way to increase the amount of sensory information. This seems to be extremely important for athletes. Note this is different from focus and attention which is still important on its own. I think meditation would help with this but I'm wondering if there are other ways

On a melee note Jiggs #1 on Leffens tier list? I don't think he's joking (although he claims that Hbox does not play ledge like this super puff so I don't think this is a diss towards Hbox) Thoughts?

Also on my last and third note. Is there a way to improve reaction time. I know with practice your reactions can get better but honestly, I feel like there has to be another way. Every time I research things on reaction time people tend to be extremely vague and not talk about the brain mechanisms that may underly reaction time. Have you ever done any in-depth research into this? I feel frustrated because people always talk about how it's genetic with no proof. Do you have an understanding of the mechanisms that underly our reactions

Increase the amount of sensory information? Do you mean information that we can hold at once? Do you mean increase input from each sense individually? Not sure I understand.

This isn't anything new from Leffen. I believe Armada and M2K also believe something similar to this. I don't know of his super planking method because he never ended up talking about it publicly like he said he would after that EVO, so I can't comment on how strong it is. The rest of his points are a bit difficult to agree with as Puff often needs multiple Bairs to knock down and win neutral, and it's only through all of that work that she can begin utilizing her harder hitting options as reads. That stuff about the forbidden SDI that recently came out may change this some though, so I am more open to his conclusion now than I was before, but I still don't think it's likely Puff can overcome how slow and generally weak and light she is to be #1 just yet.

I have not done any in-depth research into the science of reaction time. However, I do believe I managed to improve my own reaction time through increasing relaxation through taking out psychological blocks and meditating deeply and reading more and visualizing more and exercising to focus my mind. Having directed practice helped too, but that surprises no one as you said.

 

[quixotic]

https://youtu.be/gNAxI0ncAvs?t=1707

How can I beat dtilt->nair here? Do you think run up shield would work?

 

[Plumpet]

I find it kinda hard to punish peaches FC bairs with DD grab since she can fade away and they have such little landing lag, so her jab/shield/spotdodge often come out before I grab her. Do you think it's worth it to go for a nair to punish her landing instead? I think they'd beat jab, get a decent shield pressure scenario if she shields, and probably knock her down with second hit if she's trying to buffer spotdodge. It's range is a bit limited though, so maybe just mixing up between fair/grab depending on their tendencies would be better, since they're both longer ranged, with fair beating jab and grab beating shield. Obviously it's preferable to just get the true grab punish before she's actionable, but do you think that's a consistent thing if she's doing them lowish/mixing up her drift?

 

[Arakune]

Hey pp, it's been a long time since i've messaged you or posted in this thread about anything, but after about a year since the last time you gave me advice about how to beat sheik, and a lot of self improvement, I've found myself absolutely stuck against the wall that is this character again. I'm not sure how you handle cases like mine, but i'm mostly looking for tips in a couple of situations.

1. PUNISH AT LOW TO MID PERCENT, ESPECIALLY OFF GRAB: When you upthrow a sheik you're forced to 50/50 on whether she'll jump or not and shark with a DJ upair/fair. If a platform at the top exists, sometimes she can safely land without being punished at all. This makes upthrowing her under platforms extremely dangerous because if you guess wrong (for example, you guess a tech roll to the right side of a BF platform and she goes left) She suddenly has center stage and is above you with the most devastating shield drop punish in the game. Slideoff also makes this worse. From this position, I find getting out of the corner extremely hard as often I find myself being forced to move first. The ledge is difficult for the same reason. Forward throw can apparently be jumped out of (Some guy on netplay just jumped out of an fthrow at something like 30%, i believe it was actually lower but just highballing here) so tech chasing her doesn't seem viable. Admittedly, I'm not sure if downthrow works, but my assumption is you could do the ben rachman slideoff to ledge because of the angle marth's dthrow sends you at, or if you're center stage she could simply tech roll away and marth can't get there in time to punish, forcing a 50/50 between spotdodge/roll and immediate action. Not really great to only get 4% as a guaranteed punish. My first and probably most important question is: how do you punish this character? Upthrow appears to be the most consistent choice especially if you have a read on them jumping, however it's worth noting that this is still a 50/50 more often than not, and often times even when you do get the read, you're forced to upair which won't lead to a continuous punish and they can land on the top platform or DI off stage and go to the ledge. Her fastfall is faster than I think most people realize so if I upair her on the right side of the stage, drifting right, at around 60, and she decides to DI left and fastfall, often times I cannot continue the punish even with my correct read and "correct" punish choice. If you opt to do fair instead, I find it becomes a true 50/50, where a fair will only catch one of fastfall/no fastfall. If she chooses the other option, you end up getting punished. Obviously there's also smaller frustrating cases of stuff like you do the upair and it weak hits and trades with nair and she hits the ground first and grabs you because you misspaced it. I find dealing with her ff/no ff mixup even harder than dealing with the jump/no jump mixup. Which is a real problem because every good marth player at the matchup states that grab is basically all you wanna do in this matchup, besides using dtilt to set it up, occasional defensive fadeaway aerials to stop her from overshoot aerial pressuring you, and fsmash to call her out when she's in midair. I find it very hard to get a meaningful punish of more than 15% or so on her, even on FD. any advice in this camp would be appreciated, whether it's changing what I'm looking for in neutral, specific percents and followups, etc. An example of what im talking about is this timestamp https://www.twitch.tv/videos/323215453?t=03h47m06s

2. Edgeguarding: I'll attach a clip of me edgeguarding krudo repeatedly in game 4 of our recent set, but you can see the amount of neutral wins i get and reads from the ledge are just absurd here. probably something like 10 rinse repeats to get him from 40% to about 140%. This risk reward is not good, I'm often times hard committing with stuff like dashback reads on rolls (punishable by dash attack) run up grab (punishable by spotdodge) hard read fsmash (punishable by anything except for sloppy ledgedashes or landing on the edge > aggro, which is what he does every time i go for it thankfully because i have a read) etc. I need a more reliable flowchart on this character because she feels borderline unkillable right now. I find her impossible to gimp and I don't understand how marths use downair to call out her DJ timing if she delays it. I suppose this might be because I don't know when her up b is actually vulnerable. Keeping her in the corner is technically a part of edgeguarding, and I find it extremely hard in general. Advice here also very appreciated. https://www.twitch.tv/videos/323215453?t=03h47m12s

3. Recovery: This one is pretty self explanatory, her dropoff ledge bair is devastating, if you double jump at any point you get faired, if you side b at any point you get needled, boom, dead at 0. Now I read in an old guide earlier this week that with marth the key vs sheik is to go extremely low, saving your side b, this makes it so you're too low for sheik to backair you and you can gimp her if she tries. Admittedly, I've been trying this out and while it's hard to break my bad recovery habits, this seems to be working relatively well. I suppose if she starts waiting extra long on the ledge you can instant up b and hit her, or go high and amsah tech her nair/fair/whatever. Not sure if you have anything to add here.

4. Shield pressure: When sheik gets on my shield i'm in a world of hurt. Her uptilt is incredible and not being able to buffer the grab inbetween the two hits really sucks. Her dtilt low profiles your grab, her late nair and fair are incredible for setting up more pressure (like a roll read, jabs, or raw grab) I know you can shield and hold down and mash R+A for cc shield grab to stop ftilts and jabs, but ccing fair is a good way to end up frustrated. And this is useless against raw grab. Aerial out of shield often times gets beaten by the same options, IE: they grab it, cc ftilt it, low profile instant fair with dtilt/cc it if it somehow hits, etc. Movement out of shield like wavedash i find getting stuffed by stuff like boost grab or ftilt clipping me before I move. Very frustrating. This also is a heavy contributing factor to number 5.

5. Corner pressure: This ties all the way back into my very first point on why juggling her when platforms are around is hard, and it's got a lot to do with #4. When I can't stay in shield and dding is hard because im constantly getting boost grabbed and the risk reward on weak hit dtilting her when she just ccs it and keeps coming, it feels pretty lopsided risk-reward wise. Her camping with needles and then just dash attacking, ftilting, or fairing when u try to come in is another way that she stops me dead in my tracks. She fullhop fairs on reaction when you go to a platform to try to escape from her. Rolls are easily reacatable. She's very good at boxing you when you both stand your ground. I don't have a lot to say about this one because I'm truthfully not really sure what my mixup options even are or how to escape from her clutches. My stock mightaswell be gone once sheik gets me in the corner unless i get a lucky dashback grab, fsmash, tipper fair at 50+, etc.

6. Neutral: This is the last and maybe 2nd most important point behind #1 (edgeguarding might be a higher priority to fix in my specific case but yeah.) I've heard aerials are bad and dumb, and I can see why. Retreating aerials used sparingly seem good, and dtilt can be used to stuff her dash attack/boost grab 50/50. Always going backwards isn't great against sheik though, since I find shield pressure, corner pressure, and getting off the ledge/recovering VERY hard vs her. Because of this it's important to mix in aggression to try to keep hold of center stage, but I often find myself getting stuffed by big hitboxes and defensive tilts when I do. You'd think marth has a substantial edge on the ground, but in reality it comes down to some RPS. Will you dash into the sheik. or away? When you dash away, will you dash quickly then turn, or run all the way to the edge? These are the questions that I feel define the neutral game, and swinging even with dtilt and grab which supposedly net good reward (not sure i see it) feels very very dangerous when a grab leads to at least 40% and a 50/50 for your stock. You're a master of the neutral game so I'm not sure if you have any advice here, general and situational advice alike is good here. How to safely be aggressive, how to keep her pinned in the corner, how to use movement instead of getting caught in your shield or spamming aerials to keep her off of you, etc. Anything helps.

Thanks again for everything you do PPMD, much love.

 

[Dr Peepee]

https://youtu.be/gNAxI0ncAvs?t=1707

How can I beat dtilt->nair here? Do you think run up shield would work?

If you mean at this exact dash timing and spacing etc that you did, then I'd say Nair'ing first or jumping a bit early to Fair could work. You could also stay out of the range of either thing and WD down and set up Dtilt or an aerial either hitting or pressuring his landing lag. Run up shield is a bit of a gamble because it's usually based on execution testing iirc but it can work.

I find it kinda hard to punish peaches FC bairs with DD grab since she can fade away and they have such little landing lag, so her jab/shield/spotdodge often come out before I grab her. Do you think it's worth it to go for a nair to punish her landing instead? I think they'd beat jab, get a decent shield pressure scenario if she shields, and probably knock her down with second hit if she's trying to buffer spotdodge. It's range is a bit limited though, so maybe just mixing up between fair/grab depending on their tendencies would be better, since they're both longer ranged, with fair beating jab and grab beating shield. Obviously it's preferable to just get the true grab punish before she's actionable, but do you think that's a consistent thing if she's doing them lowish/mixing up her drift?

If she's fading away I'm not sure that is consistently grabbable. I like WD Dtilt to pressure the landing but you need to do it early and space it decently so it's also difficult sometimes. Come to think of it, unless I'm pretty sure I know what Peach will do I don't think I normally go for anything there besides the occasional Nair like you said or Dtilt. Grab is good when you can get it. I think testing what you can hit at various ranges would be good so you're informed, and otherwise just keeping pressure on her for giving up stage is probably best. Beating an option, especially a retreating one, is sometimes about beating what comes next more than beating an option itself. So those next options if you're not sure how to beat them then taking stage and making them all difficult to use, forcing out DA more often can give you pressure by presence if you mix up your options and test well.

Hey pp, it's been a long time since i've messaged you or posted in this thread about anything, but after about a year since the last time you gave me advice about how to beat sheik, and a lot of self improvement, I've found myself absolutely stuck against the wall that is this character again. I'm not sure how you handle cases like mine, but i'm mostly looking for tips in a couple of situations.

1. PUNISH AT LOW TO MID PERCENT, ESPECIALLY OFF GRAB: When you upthrow a sheik you're forced to 50/50 on whether she'll jump or not and shark with a DJ upair/fair. If a platform at the top exists, sometimes she can safely land without being punished at all. This makes upthrowing her under platforms extremely dangerous because if you guess wrong (for example, you guess a tech roll to the right side of a BF platform and she goes left) She suddenly has center stage and is above you with the most devastating shield drop punish in the game. Slideoff also makes this worse. From this position, I find getting out of the corner extremely hard as often I find myself being forced to move first. The ledge is difficult for the same reason. Forward throw can apparently be jumped out of (Some guy on netplay just jumped out of an fthrow at something like 30%, i believe it was actually lower but just highballing here) so tech chasing her doesn't seem viable. Admittedly, I'm not sure if downthrow works, but my assumption is you could do the ben rachman slideoff to ledge because of the angle marth's dthrow sends you at, or if you're center stage she could simply tech roll away and marth can't get there in time to punish, forcing a 50/50 between spotdodge/roll and immediate action. Not really great to only get 4% as a guaranteed punish. My first and probably most important question is: how do you punish this character? Upthrow appears to be the most consistent choice especially if you have a read on them jumping, however it's worth noting that this is still a 50/50 more often than not, and often times even when you do get the read, you're forced to upair which won't lead to a continuous punish and they can land on the top platform or DI off stage and go to the ledge. Her fastfall is faster than I think most people realize so if I upair her on the right side of the stage, drifting right, at around 60, and she decides to DI left and fastfall, often times I cannot continue the punish even with my correct read and "correct" punish choice. If you opt to do fair instead, I find it becomes a true 50/50, where a fair will only catch one of fastfall/no fastfall. If she chooses the other option, you end up getting punished. Obviously there's also smaller frustrating cases of stuff like you do the upair and it weak hits and trades with nair and she hits the ground first and grabs you because you misspaced it. I find dealing with her ff/no ff mixup even harder than dealing with the jump/no jump mixup. Which is a real problem because every good marth player at the matchup states that grab is basically all you wanna do in this matchup, besides using dtilt to set it up, occasional defensive fadeaway aerials to stop her from overshoot aerial pressuring you, and fsmash to call her out when she's in midair. I find it very hard to get a meaningful punish of more than 15% or so on her, even on FD. any advice in this camp would be appreciated, whether it's changing what I'm looking for in neutral, specific percents and followups, etc. An example of what im talking about is this timestamp https://www.twitch.tv/videos/323215453?t=03h47m06s

2. Edgeguarding: I'll attach a clip of me edgeguarding krudo repeatedly in game 4 of our recent set, but you can see the amount of neutral wins i get and reads from the ledge are just absurd here. probably something like 10 rinse repeats to get him from 40% to about 140%. This risk reward is not good, I'm often times hard committing with stuff like dashback reads on rolls (punishable by dash attack) run up grab (punishable by spotdodge) hard read fsmash (punishable by anything except for sloppy ledgedashes or landing on the edge > aggro, which is what he does every time i go for it thankfully because i have a read) etc. I need a more reliable flowchart on this character because she feels borderline unkillable right now. I find her impossible to gimp and I don't understand how marths use downair to call out her DJ timing if she delays it. I suppose this might be because I don't know when her up b is actually vulnerable. Keeping her in the corner is technically a part of edgeguarding, and I find it extremely hard in general. Advice here also very appreciated. https://www.twitch.tv/videos/323215453?t=03h47m12s

3. Recovery: This one is pretty self explanatory, her dropoff ledge bair is devastating, if you double jump at any point you get faired, if you side b at any point you get needled, boom, dead at 0. Now I read in an old guide earlier this week that with marth the key vs sheik is to go extremely low, saving your side b, this makes it so you're too low for sheik to backair you and you can gimp her if she tries. Admittedly, I've been trying this out and while it's hard to break my bad recovery habits, this seems to be working relatively well. I suppose if she starts waiting extra long on the ledge you can instant up b and hit her, or go high and amsah tech her nair/fair/whatever. Not sure if you have anything to add here.

4. Shield pressure: When sheik gets on my shield i'm in a world of hurt. Her uptilt is incredible and not being able to buffer the grab inbetween the two hits really sucks. Her dtilt low profiles your grab, her late nair and fair are incredible for setting up more pressure (like a roll read, jabs, or raw grab) I know you can shield and hold down and mash R+A for cc shield grab to stop ftilts and jabs, but ccing fair is a good way to end up frustrated. And this is useless against raw grab. Aerial out of shield often times gets beaten by the same options, IE: they grab it, cc ftilt it, low profile instant fair with dtilt/cc it if it somehow hits, etc. Movement out of shield like wavedash i find getting stuffed by stuff like boost grab or ftilt clipping me before I move. Very frustrating. This also is a heavy contributing factor to number 5.

5. Corner pressure: This ties all the way back into my very first point on why juggling her when platforms are around is hard, and it's got a lot to do with #4. When I can't stay in shield and dding is hard because im constantly getting boost grabbed and the risk reward on weak hit dtilting her when she just ccs it and keeps coming, it feels pretty lopsided risk-reward wise. Her camping with needles and then just dash attacking, ftilting, or fairing when u try to come in is another way that she stops me dead in my tracks. She fullhop fairs on reaction when you go to a platform to try to escape from her. Rolls are easily reacatable. She's very good at boxing you when you both stand your ground. I don't have a lot to say about this one because I'm truthfully not really sure what my mixup options even are or how to escape from her clutches. My stock mightaswell be gone once sheik gets me in the corner unless i get a lucky dashback grab, fsmash, tipper fair at 50+, etc.

6. Neutral: This is the last and maybe 2nd most important point behind #1 (edgeguarding might be a higher priority to fix in my specific case but yeah.) I've heard aerials are bad and dumb, and I can see why. Retreating aerials used sparingly seem good, and dtilt can be used to stuff her dash attack/boost grab 50/50. Always going backwards isn't great against sheik though, since I find shield pressure, corner pressure, and getting off the ledge/recovering VERY hard vs her. Because of this it's important to mix in aggression to try to keep hold of center stage, but I often find myself getting stuffed by big hitboxes and defensive tilts when I do. You'd think marth has a substantial edge on the ground, but in reality it comes down to some RPS. Will you dash into the sheik. or away? When you dash away, will you dash quickly then turn, or run all the way to the edge? These are the questions that I feel define the neutral game, and swinging even with dtilt and grab which supposedly net good reward (not sure i see it) feels very very dangerous when a grab leads to at least 40% and a 50/50 for your stock. You're a master of the neutral game so I'm not sure if you have any advice here, general and situational advice alike is good here. How to safely be aggressive, how to keep her pinned in the corner, how to use movement instead of getting caught in your shield or spamming aerials to keep her off of you, etc. Anything helps.

Thanks again for everything you do PPMD, much love.

Hello again. Let's see what we can do.

1. Yes Dthrow does help you tech chase too. On small levels if she can't slideoff then she can't roll her full roll away if you throw her from center stage, and on BF this is somewhat true too but it's harder because the stage is a bit bigger. Dthrow would have been the right play in your clip as well. Uthrow is only a 50/50 at percents where you don't have frame advantage to hit Utilt, which is like below 21% or something. Then you could still technically hit Utilt if they're slow and you're fast or something but I don't really like playing that mixup too much either. And for Fthrow if they are jumping out they can usually be hit or even regrabbed if they're DI'ing like that, so it helps to think of hit vs tech chase depending on their DI. Now for the major Uthrow stuff. If you do Uthrow her and suspect a slideoff, then Utilt or Fsmash are what you ideally want to hit. This is primarily possible on not-DL stages(you can Utilt on DL though), but DL you can also tech chase without slideoff and mix Uthrow with Fthrow(if they no DI Fthrow you can hit them at least sometimes iirc). Now for the DJ stuff, what I like to do is prime for Utilt then otherwise chase the jump with tipper FF Fair/Uair. In your video you may have been okay if you hit DJ tipper Fair and landed on the top platform for example. Sometimes I just do a slightly delayed SH so I can catch them falling into me with Uair and otherwise DJ and Uair/Fair them. On stages where they can just go to top platforms, it can help to tipper them out of the air if possible and otherwise just taking your damage and running. As I've mentioned there are many ways to hit them and if they DI forward toward top platform for example then Dthrow would get a good tech chase every time. So if they get out occasionally that's not the worst thing in the world.

2. Just do what M2K does and sit just around edgedash Ftilt range and hold down and Dtilt if she comes up. Then she has to sit on the very lip of the stage and you can either Fsmash or do Fair zoning. The first Fair in the clip you linked was not good because it was when she was still invincible, but the second when he rolled was good and you could have turnaround grabbed the roll. You didn't need to go straight to the edge after throwing her off since she couldn't get there right away and wouldn't DJ attack if you go right away since her attack would whiff. Runoff Fair or WD off DJ Dair are fine options along with turnaround Dtilt if she does try to come up early or with DJ aerial(relatively uncommon). She's vulnerable for the first 17 frames of up-B I just looked it up. You just need to wait sometimes or drop down DJ Fair her coming up late or drop low and up-B to hit her out of her DJ and get damage and make her do a worse up-B than she normally could. Doing this will make her either DJ/up-B earlier and/or up-B farther away from the edge which you can runoff Fair or letgo Bair or DJ back Bair/Dair depending on circumstances. Runoff Fair would've worked when you Fthrew offstage. When Sheik is high offstage and drifting in, you can WD off or SH out and DJ Bair or threaten it so she has to drift far away or try to go over you and you can cover both fine.

3. Yeah hovering just around her drop Bair range to force her to commit and then hitting her is good, as is going low. Honestly if the Sheik is great there's not much you can do without either getting hit offstage or going onstage and taking damage, but the going low thing is a great starting point. Sometimes you could do the Moon thing and DJ early and counter.

4. Spamming grab in between Utilt hits is still a good way to go because you can hold down and do it and either grab in between or potentially grab at the end of the Utilt. I like jumping away/in place if she Dtilts depending on spacing so I can pressure her back, but if I want to be ignorant I can hold down OOS and take the Dtilt and Dtilt back. Occasionally I'll lightshield and just let her push me away especially if I know a late aerial is coming since it's a silly mixup anyway. If you do take the aerial then mixing between mashing grab and WD OOS is good because you're either grabbing and holding down on jab or something or you're moving away if she jumps or dashes back(and you should be holding down to WD so if you do get jabbed you can grab sometimes). Granted the position does suck and will suck, but these are some things to make it suck less.

5. Sounds like you need more zoning. Fair in place and Dtilt in place to discourage her boost grab and any run up idea she may have. You can't just run all the way out or dodge and counter so easily when both of you are zoning characters. If she needles you then that's alright and it's better than freaking out about it and letting her cancel and grab you for example. Sometimes you have to take space incrementally by faking moving in and forcing her back so you get a bit more breathing room. Sometimes you need to control space first to counter her approaches before you can burst out. Then this type of play allows you to DD more since you're playing differently and also to eventually rush out of the corner with big grab or WD/RC Dtilt plays sometimes. Again, being cornered is a losing position but these types of ways of thinking and playing do help out.

6. From the Sheik's perspective, it's a high risk to approach as well. Consider the lag on boost grab or dash attack. Even Ftilt has fairly high lag. Jumping with Fair requires some hangtime before she can use a safer one too. For these reasons, Sheik won't be just running you over at all since the risk is big for her too. Late Fair/Nair in place are fine for you, but Fair is better. Fair is to keep her out and....ah I bet I know something that can help. When I stopped freaking out about Sheik is when I started fighting farther away from her. So if you stay around or just out of dash/run into boost grab range then you can Fair relatively safely because you will have time to start it up if she comes in at the same time and either slightly drift back or just FF Fair in place to beat any approaching option. Being a bit too close and not having control means you constantly feel forced to go in because of the threat of boost grab or DA and that's what get you stuffed. However, if you're a bit closer than the average spacing, or just outside of Ftilt but certainly well inside BG/DA then you can start dash grabbing her Ftilt and threatening her needle charge reliably. Sheik still struggles to come in here because if you Dtilt/jump for Fair then she will whiff or get hit. But still you are right in thinking you could still lose here which is why it helps to discourage those things first and then set up your zone there. If Sheiks do that modern goofy thing of running into you to CC Dtilt then either Dtilt early to tipper or just run up and grab....or retreating Fair I guess. I like landing Dtilt in neutral because it's good damage and often nets stage control and even can force Sheiks to be more reckless with offense or they put up shield or something that is more punishable. So basically Dtilt doesn't directly give a great reward, but indirectly I think the reward is quite good.

Might not have explained it all the best especially that last part, but I think I did an alright job. Let me know if you have any questions or things I should look at.

 

[Reyjavik]

So i've been working on mentality a lot but have had some missteps correcting myself. My anger at when the game goes against what should happen or causes the same situation for my opponent to work tears at me. I realize I need to accept that sometimes the game is dumb and its hard accepting that in life when something like a controllable videogame is anything but. This lack of control I have may mirror my own life issues presently without realizing it.

Back to melee....
When in the ditto, it seems I try to punish their dtilt with a nair, but they dash back and grab. When would people say is the best time to go in? Do I just need to react faster to punish or am I in the wrong trying to jump towards with nair like you were saying to punish with?

 

[peedy]

I mean the amount of sensory information we can receive at once. As an example we have attention, focus, concentration. Attention is how much water is flowing, focus on directing that water in a meaningful way and concentration is how long you can maintain the amount of water and the direction. Better athletes tend to receive more sensory information and block out irrelevant sensory information (sensory gating). Sensory gating I have an idea on as it is basically attention, focus and concentration but on the unconscious level. I'm more interested in learning of ways to increase the amount of sensory information I receive as I have a decent idea on practical ways to filter out irrelevant information

Just wanted to make sure this was as specific as possible. Do you have any ideas on how to do this?

 

[Dr Peepee]

So i've been working on mentality a lot but have had some missteps correcting myself. My anger at when the game goes against what should happen or causes the same situation for my opponent to work tears at me. I realize I need to accept that sometimes the game is dumb and its hard accepting that in life when something like a controllable videogame is anything but. This lack of control I have may mirror my own life issues presently without realizing it.

Back to melee....
When in the ditto, it seems I try to punish their dtilt with a nair, but they dash back and grab. When would people say is the best time to go in? Do I just need to react faster to punish or am I in the wrong trying to jump towards with nair like you were saying to punish with?

You need to jump over Dtilt with Nair, which is somewhat of a prediction when you see them move in. So if you wait until you see the Dtilt you will be too late.

I mean the amount of sensory information we can receive at once. As an example we have attention, focus, concentration. Attention is how much water is flowing, focus on directing that water in a meaningful way and concentration is how long you can maintain the amount of water and the direction. Better athletes tend to receive more sensory information and block out irrelevant sensory information (sensory gating). Sensory gating I have an idea on as it is basically attention, focus and concentration but on the unconscious level. I'm more interested in learning of ways to increase the amount of sensory information I receive as I have a decent idea on practical ways to filter out irrelevant information

Just wanted to make sure this was as specific as possible. Do you have any ideas on how to do this?

Sounds to me like meditative practices and building relaxation and conditioning the body will all work toward this. I don't have much else to say about it.

 

[Construct]

Haven't been on smashboards in years and wanted to show my little brother who's just getting into melee how people used to learn things and I am positively agog that PP's still here spreading benevolent wisdom, absolutely amazing... Thanks for all the gems over the years, from mindfulness in movement (spelled out with eloquence far beyond its time) to advice on tournament mentality (go in with no expectations but looking to do your best) applicable to all manner of things in life. Keep fighting the good fight Doc', your help is incomparable

 

[Kotastic]

PP, when Marth/Sheik is invincible from respawning, do you think it's worth it to try to trick them with movement? I'm starting to seriously consider just planking because I find it's just a degenerate 50/50 where for Marth, I get fsmashed/DA/grabbed for me feinting going center but then WD back or getting uptilted or fsmashed for trying to cross up. For Sheik, it's the same thing for getting BG/DA me retreating or getting ftilted or grabbed for me trying to cross up. Then I just eat like 50% or die, and it's especially frustrating for every sheik I play they just go to ledge and shino stall for safety whenever i respawn. Going to platforms is an okay mixup, but if they catch me then I'm even more heavily disadvantaged trying to get down.

Getting hit by all of these nets them so much advantage or a heavy punish that I might as well get the safety net of planking like I already do vs icies since they have no good answers and falco on FD (I generally lightshield on platform and I think it works well). While I am cornered, I think the mixups and tricks Marth has as well as ledgedash roll works better than trying to dodge an invincible opponent. What are your suggestions?

 

[Dr Peepee]

I was thinking about that too at one point. I still think it's worth considering on YS/FoD because even if you mix them up they can still get to you or put you in a bad spot. On BF and bigger stages I find that since they take longer to get to you then crossing them up once or slowly pulling them toward you can give you openings plus keep you from getting hit. I studied old Azen videos to learn how to avoid people since I saw him doing a great job of it and he does it by prediction. He would move one way and sometimes shield so they would come in, and he'd shield just long enough for them to confirm where he is before moving again so he'd move as they move. That type of thing works pretty well for me, and makes it feel like a very interesting neutral position where my only goal is avoidance. The specifics of it matter too, but it's hard to describe without video.

Anyway if you don't feel like trying that especially on small stages I understand. Planking is an alright choice if you're good from the edge vs low percent opponents.

 

[Kotastic]

PP, how do you deal with dash back when you're greater than immediate DA distance? Against someone like Falco, gradually taking stage (and react to laser startup) or nair in place has been working great, but I'm not sure how to effectively translate that to other characters, especially to Marth, Sheik, and Fox. I've been thinking of getting into the range of immediate DA range (dash forward) to see how they respond (perhaps through dash back or WD back) and assess how to go from there, but I'm interested to hear your input in this.

Also against Sheik when calling out her jumps, like SH fair or FH needle, do you think this is feasible to react out of short dash back (to dodge tilts) and go for fair? Or is it a read that Sheik is going to jump and punish with fair? As of late I've been reading SH fair with DA which is very high reward but it loses to FH whatever leaving the mixup not in my favor.

When juggling Sheik at low percents, I've been actually wanting sheik to burn her DJ so juggling her is significantly easier for an easy edgeguard or 50%+ minimum. There's times though where they just...don't DJ and I kind of look like an idiot going for the high reward read. What's your advice for covering both?
Additionally with juggling sheik, I have a hard time trying to continue the juggle as Sheik falls down with bair/dair/fair even without her DJ with pivot grab. This is further exacerbated when she fastfalls her aerials. Often times, she spotdodges or just straight up hits me and the window for landing the pivot grab seems really tight to me compared to pivot grabbing Samus and Peach which is consistently feasible for me. What's your advice for covering Sheik attacking on her way down?

I've also been showing steady improvements and consistency in performances within the last month, accumulating good wins and taking Squid and Faceroll to the brink as of late with little bad losses. My focus exercise has helped a lot, which is reminding myself why I play the game. Looking back to my progress a year ago, it's incredible how much one can learn and improve if they apply themselves. Thanks for being a resource as always, I will continue pushing.

 

[Zorcey]

With my work on zoning, I've become much better at controlling space and punishing opponents for approaching me, and I'm better understanding why I struggle against players who don't like to approach and instead hang back and harass you: if they don't have a particularly aggressive style already, I don't know how to make them approach. The risk/reward in Marth trying to incentivize approaches with pokes or his own approaches feels way in the opponent's favor if their character is decent, and I'm not sure how to mitigate this. I don't really know how to not play an RPS-type game when approaching from TR, because it feels like I have to stay grounded if they do, SH Fair/Nair if they SH, FH Fair if they FH, etc. and if I do something like a retreating Fair or WD back Dtilt it's kind of pointless because they don't bite on the dash in. I wonder if it's because I'm not confirming things while setting up with dashes and jumps when I can. Does this mean I should work on movement? Is the understanding that Marth's movement is for forcing approaches, and his zoning for beating them correct?

Another part of it could be that it's difficult for me to get inside my opponent's head instead of my own, and see how my threats affect them from their own perspective. I have the tendency to assume that because I won a position a particular way, the opponent will adapt in another particular way, and then they do something totally different that doesn't really make sense to me, and I lose the position the next time or at least don't get the same reward. This has me wondering whether it's wrong of me to even be framing the question in this way, because it sounds a little ridiculous to say that I could consciously deconstruct my opponent's thought process in the midst of a match. (That said I don't want to neglect conditioning, but I think until now I've thought of it in a pretty ignorant way - by assuming my opponent will think how I want instead of just observing, reacting, and making decisions based on data.) I think the alternative to this is learning those spots/times in positions where you can observe and confirm, then react with a winning option (and of course knowing when that's not possible and it's a "true mixup"). I've become pretty good with this in positions like cornering where my opponent has to confront my zoning, but in open positions that aren't so streamlined and require more movement, the amount of possibilities still leaves me lost and more than a little overwhelmed. What do you think about this?

 

[Dr Peepee]

PP, how do you deal with dash back when you're greater than immediate DA distance? Against someone like Falco, gradually taking stage (and react to laser startup) or nair in place has been working great, but I'm not sure how to effectively translate that to other characters, especially to Marth, Sheik, and Fox. I've been thinking of getting into the range of immediate DA range (dash forward) to see how they respond (perhaps through dash back or WD back) and assess how to go from there, but I'm interested to hear your input in this.

Also against Sheik when calling out her jumps, like SH fair or FH needle, do you think this is feasible to react out of short dash back (to dodge tilts) and go for fair? Or is it a read that Sheik is going to jump and punish with fair? As of late I've been reading SH fair with DA which is very high reward but it loses to FH whatever leaving the mixup not in my favor.

When juggling Sheik at low percents, I've been actually wanting sheik to burn her DJ so juggling her is significantly easier for an easy edgeguard or 50%+ minimum. There's times though where they just...don't DJ and I kind of look like an idiot going for the high reward read. What's your advice for covering both?
Additionally with juggling sheik, I have a hard time trying to continue the juggle as Sheik falls down with bair/dair/fair even without her DJ with pivot grab. This is further exacerbated when she fastfalls her aerials. Often times, she spotdodges or just straight up hits me and the window for landing the pivot grab seems really tight to me compared to pivot grabbing Samus and Peach which is consistently feasible for me. What's your advice for covering Sheik attacking on her way down?

I've also been showing steady improvements and consistency in performances within the last month, accumulating good wins and taking Squid and Faceroll to the brink as of late with little bad losses. My focus exercise has helped a lot, which is reminding myself why I play the game. Looking back to my progress a year ago, it's incredible how much one can learn and improve if they apply themselves. Thanks for being a resource as always, I will continue pushing.

Yeah against Falco it's more fine since things can happen incrementally more with him. Those others can often take stage much faster. Against Sheik I think getting closer is also generally fine if you have successfully discouraged DA/BG. Fox is also fairly okay to go closer against because his moves are smaller so you can always throw something out or retreat and do so and be alright. Marth it is more complicated, but I think if you're pushing in just a bit against him it's fine too since his attacks are slower. With Marth you need to be watching for big swings as he covers so much space so pushing in is fine to encourage that, but you have to be very aware of what you can and can't react to at the new spacings, along with how he might react(so he may respond slowly to the dash in for example). This type of play with the dash in observe is generally something I really enjoy doing, so of course I would agree with it =p

Depends on spacing since you may be too far to run in and hit Sheik, and if she drifts back then that also makes it less likely you'll catch her. It would also depend on how far back you dash+how quickly you react. I would say if you're looking to dodge Ftilt you'll probbbably be spaced too far to Fair her unless she drifts in is my gut instinct here. Being just outside of Ftilt and dashing in for Fair works in my head but you'd have to be just outside of it, so it would be pretty precise. I think it's something to look into practicing and testing. For the DA thing, I imagine you could react to her being in the air and then DA'ing her landing, but I imagine you are worried about holding down then. It doesn't seem reliable to me. A way I like to think of it is if she FHs then you chase and Fair, and if she jumps in place you either Fair or get to Dtilt/mixup with something like Fair or grab on her landing so if she does jump it would still be an issue for her.

Yeah so you can just Utilt or do an instant Uair to keep her above you and that usually forces the jump. Sometimes what I do is delayed SH off of Uthrow and Uair if they fall into me or DJ hit them if they DJ. Really just about setting it up and practicing it for the various situations I'd say.

Bair really shouldn't be an issue since it sticks up so that's an easy Utilt/Uair/Fair. Fair is more of one but beaten the same way. Dair is harder and you can shield grab or pivot grab or Fair it. You need to make sure you're close enough to her landing to grab, and you may be giving her a bit too much space to land which is why you're missing the grab. This was a problem for me at one point for that reason. With Bair especially you need to be right outside of the range of the move to grab iirc.

Heck yeah man, it's a great process isn't it? I'm very happy for you and look forward to your growth =)

With my work on zoning, I've become much better at controlling space and punishing opponents for approaching me, and I'm better understanding why I struggle against players who don't like to approach and instead hang back and harass you: if they don't have a particularly aggressive style already, I don't know how to make them approach. The risk/reward in Marth trying to incentivize approaches with pokes or his own approaches feels way in the opponent's favor if their character is decent, and I'm not sure how to mitigate this. I don't really know how to not play an RPS-type game when approaching from TR, because it feels like I have to stay grounded if they do, SH Fair/Nair if they SH, FH Fair if they FH, etc. and if I do something like a retreating Fair or WD back Dtilt it's kind of pointless because they don't bite on the dash in. I wonder if it's because I'm not confirming things while setting up with dashes and jumps when I can. Does this mean I should work on movement? Is the understanding that Marth's movement is for forcing approaches, and his zoning for beating them correct?

Another part of it could be that it's difficult for me to get inside my opponent's head instead of my own, and see how my threats affect them from their own perspective. I have the tendency to assume that because I won a position a particular way, the opponent will adapt in another particular way, and then they do something totally different that doesn't really make sense to me, and I lose the position the next time or at least don't get the same reward. This has me wondering whether it's wrong of me to even be framing the question in this way, because it sounds a little ridiculous to say that I could consciously deconstruct my opponent's thought process in the midst of a match. (That said I don't want to neglect conditioning, but I think until now I've thought of it in a pretty ignorant way - by assuming my opponent will think how I want instead of just observing, reacting, and making decisions based on data.) I think the alternative to this is learning those spots/times in positions where you can observe and confirm, then react with a winning option (and of course knowing when that's not possible and it's a "true mixup"). I've become pretty good with this in positions like cornering where my opponent has to confront my zoning, but in open positions that aren't so streamlined and require more movement, the amount of possibilities still leaves me lost and more than a little overwhelmed. What do you think about this?

Zoning and movement are designed to control space, with movement being ambiguous whether it threatens or retreats etc. So if you have an established space and they don't want to come in, then you don't need to push all the way into them. You can just expand your zone of control to a point closer to them. When you're closer and you can now hit them or threaten them more easily or they've moved back too many times, they will surely be forced to come in.

Having assumptions about what they will do is fine, but you need to update your assumptions based on what they do. If you do a play and it's time for them to respond to it, but they don't come in, then that doesn't mean they didn't observe it or your guess was worthless. It just needs updating for this person, and it should expand your possibilities for what people can do when you make that play.

 

[Kotastic]

So in regards of forcing DJ at low percents (talkin like up-throwing sheik at like 10% where uptilt isn't a true combo), do you think this preemptively throwing an uptilt is a mixup (Sheik can attack on her way down if I wait for DJ) or some other factor that makes it in my favor?

In regards to falling bair, what would you have done differently here? https://youtu.be/OAyMqJPY8jI?t=419

 

[Dr Peepee]

Utilt can work sometimes, but if she could go to a top platform for example then it wouldn't be good. It depends on DI and percent. You could potentially react with Utilt if they aren't immediately jumping though. Again you can SH early to Uair if they come down on you and DJ(or FF then FH/DJ) and hit them if they DJ.

Dashed in after Utilt so I could SH Fair. M2K would probably have drifted off the stage. Not sure why I didn't dash before SH'ing though lol.

 

[quixotic]

So I revisited the situation I asked you about earlier this week and was wondering about some spacing/positional ideas:

https://youtu.be/gNAxI0ncAvs?t=1705

When I see marth double jump from really far away I know I have a lot of time to position myself where I want(I didn't feel like I could pressure him directly). But after I take space marth counterattacks with run up dtilt and I lose my advantage(not sure about this).

When you marth ditto m2k at sktar in the opening sequence it looks like you do a forwards dash and then upon seeing m2k enter run during your dash back, you immediately prepare against run cancel dtilt, but this feels like already a disadvantaged position(if they run almost the distance to dtilt and wavedash back they take stage for free, and can do all of their options out of stand).

https://youtu.be/NnQm3ThN6eg?t=333

So I guess my question is how do I come out on top vs people doing a run forwards mixup(wd back, run shield, run cancel dtilt) at the spacing from my clip? In your clip it seems like even at that distance you couldn't prepare against rc dtilt by using dash dancing.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Against Falco, is taking laser while in shield briefly into SH fair out of shield a viable strategy when trying to wall out Falco and prevent him from coming in with nair or dair? I was finding some success with this where I would shield the laser and jump out of shield as soon as the shield stun wore off, then reactively fairing the Falco as I drifted toward him and he got closer, so that my fair would go over his laser and hit him, or it would beat out the aerial that he was going to do. However I feel like when I'm doing this I am leaving myself vulnerable when airborne while he isn't and I would like to know if there's other ways to get through his laser wall that would be safer. I still like doing fair OoS because I'm actionable pretty early on and I don't have to over-commit to something by drifting back, while if I were to wavedash out of shield toward Falco, I'm putting myself in lag and going towards him, which is likely what he wants. I want to take space and continue to zone him but I don't wanna put myself in lag while doing it.

Against Puff, I'm really unsure what to do when she is crouching at low percents. The way I have been approaching it lately is I have been trying to dtilt 1-2 times when she is crouching, preferably when tippered, but sometimes I don't space it quite well and the Puff is able to CC fsmash my dtilt or dash attack it. Trying to fair puff while she's crouching is okay when it's tippered but not spaced usually leads me to getting grabbed. Would fsmash while she's crouching not be a bad idea? I feel like it might be a bit over-committal but I'd like your thoughts on that move in this situation. I feel like ftilt isn't strong enough to get the job done. I know I can overshoot a running grab while she's crouching in order to grab her. Is this an option I should be going for since it can net me a lot of percent? I know the risk of missing it is usually getting rested, but I'm wondering if that justifies the reward enough to go for it and practice the timing. I'm sure there's some mixup game here where either I space myself and don't let Puff come in when she wants to be aggressive, or I try to go for the grab when she's trying to be more passive/reserved.

Against Falcon, what I seem to struggle with understanding the most is how to play within Falcon's threatening range. It's by far the longest TR in the game and I often find myself getting hit by nair when trying to dash back, and getting naired in place when trying to close the distance on him. Is neutral against Falcon more about being proactive in your attacks to zone him out? Or can it be mostly reactive? As far as I know the main thing you'll be reacting to is his nair, since you can dash around, nair it, or even CC grab it, but then there's the mixup that he knees or stomps instead. How do I go about being more prepared for these mixups in his TR?

 

[Dr Peepee]

So I revisited the situation I asked you about earlier this week and was wondering about some spacing/positional ideas:

https://youtu.be/gNAxI0ncAvs?t=1705

When I see marth double jump from really far away I know I have a lot of time to position myself where I want(I didn't feel like I could pressure him directly). But after I take space marth counterattacks with run up dtilt and I lose my advantage(not sure about this).

When you marth ditto m2k at sktar in the opening sequence it looks like you do a forwards dash and then upon seeing m2k enter run during your dash back, you immediately prepare against run cancel dtilt, but this feels like already a disadvantaged position(if they run almost the distance to dtilt and wavedash back they take stage for free, and can do all of their options out of stand).

https://youtu.be/NnQm3ThN6eg?t=333

So I guess my question is how do I come out on top vs people doing a run forwards mixup(wd back, run shield, run cancel dtilt) at the spacing from my clip? In your clip it seems like even at that distance you couldn't prepare against rc dtilt by using dash dancing.

Well admittedly I don't think I could see M2K very well during the GO! screen lol, even if I should expect he'd do things like that during that screen since he's done it a lot. But playing defense here and giving up stage isn't inherently bad. But I believe there are two things to talk about before going into that. You're asking again about your situation, and also asking about generally what to do against opponents who fake more. So let's answer your own situation first.

What kills you in your situation is your two/three dashes back after he gets tipper Fair'd. If you feel you always have to dash away after dashing in or moving forward, then that's bad muscle memory and you lose positional advantage from it. The third one is ambiguous of how bad it is because you still could have pressured his landing but opted to move away, which is a bit of a judgment call. Then you dash back a bit farther than necessary to avoid Dtilt and then commit to your own Dtilt super hard. It looks like you are waiting for him to do a move and then whiff punish him, which he correctly punishes seeing you enter run. So if you're mostly waiting and looking to whiff punish, which is a fine strategy, then you could have gotten closer to make him whiff when he was airborne or done a different play on his Dtilt such as Dtilt'ing in place or jumping in advance on his approach, or observing what he did out of your dash back, etc. If you wanted to interrupt him you could have Dtilt'd him long before he got into position to do his.

Now for your other question: what if they fake? Yes that would make things much harder. Assuming their fakes are using everything you said which is WD back and run shield in addition to RC Dtilt, we can start to think about how they would use these things. If you dash back as they come in, you won't lose unless they super overextend with their RC Dtilt, which is a good thing to try and get them to do so you can grab/Dtilt/aerial them and would be fairly reactable out of dash back given how much time it takes to do RC Dtilt anyway plus the extra time of them running in. So if you can always dash back, you can always observe. That's good. That lets you see their habits too like when they think you will intercept and how(shield vs potential aerials or if you committed to a RC Dtilt so they could grab vs late timing of WD back so they can observe or counter your own deep approach). Basically how often do they choose to do each option, and what is their own way to do it like do they WD back too early which doesn't properly threaten RC Dtilt and gives up stage, or do they fully commit to long dash/run first and risk getting intercepted for the fake? At what spacing do they think shielding is appropriate? And so on. You gain a lot from just looking at what they do and when. Let's keep in mind that if you move in first then you have the chance to intercept their RC Dtilt and their full dash/run in WD back and could probably get some shield pressure otherwise. So timing matters too and opens up offensive possibilities.

I probably could go on about all of this but this is quite a bit of information and I need to see what you're thinking about it. What does and doesn't make sense?

Against Falco, is taking laser while in shield briefly into SH fair out of shield a viable strategy when trying to wall out Falco and prevent him from coming in with nair or dair? I was finding some success with this where I would shield the laser and jump out of shield as soon as the shield stun wore off, then reactively fairing the Falco as I drifted toward him and he got closer, so that my fair would go over his laser and hit him, or it would beat out the aerial that he was going to do. However I feel like when I'm doing this I am leaving myself vulnerable when airborne while he isn't and I would like to know if there's other ways to get through his laser wall that would be safer. I still like doing fair OoS because I'm actionable pretty early on and I don't have to over-commit to something by drifting back, while if I were to wavedash out of shield toward Falco, I'm putting myself in lag and going towards him, which is likely what he wants. I want to take space and continue to zone him but I don't wanna put myself in lag while doing it.

Against Puff, I'm really unsure what to do when she is crouching at low percents. The way I have been approaching it lately is I have been trying to dtilt 1-2 times when she is crouching, preferably when tippered, but sometimes I don't space it quite well and the Puff is able to CC fsmash my dtilt or dash attack it. Trying to fair puff while she's crouching is okay when it's tippered but not spaced usually leads me to getting grabbed. Would fsmash while she's crouching not be a bad idea? I feel like it might be a bit over-committal but I'd like your thoughts on that move in this situation. I feel like ftilt isn't strong enough to get the job done. I know I can overshoot a running grab while she's crouching in order to grab her. Is this an option I should be going for since it can net me a lot of percent? I know the risk of missing it is usually getting rested, but I'm wondering if that justifies the reward enough to go for it and practice the timing. I'm sure there's some mixup game here where either I space myself and don't let Puff come in when she wants to be aggressive, or I try to go for the grab when she's trying to be more passive/reserved.

Against Falcon, what I seem to struggle with understanding the most is how to play within Falcon's threatening range. It's by far the longest TR in the game and I often find myself getting hit by nair when trying to dash back, and getting naired in place when trying to close the distance on him. Is neutral against Falcon more about being proactive in your attacks to zone him out? Or can it be mostly reactive? As far as I know the main thing you'll be reacting to is his nair, since you can dash around, nair it, or even CC grab it, but then there's the mixup that he knees or stomps instead. How do I go about being more prepared for these mixups in his TR?

I believe CC stun for laser is similar to shield if you want to spend those 7 frames or whatever it is to crouch before the laser hits you and this could allow you to move around more with more options out of stun than shield. Anyway the aerial OOS is kind of good but certainly a gamble. If Falco is close enough he can laser immediate aerial you coming out of shield, and if he's farther then you win vs that but lose to waiting aerial or lasering your landing. Going over lasers is great though so if you suspect he will shoot lower then jumping is cool.
As for what else to do to get in, you can run in SH Nair over lasers, dash up side B his laser startup, dash attack under lasers. The big thing is slowing his laser pattern down though and PS and take laser jab/dash back are good for this because then you can get into better position to use these types of tools and regain mobility advantage over him.

I believe you can shield the Fsmash/DA out of untippered Dtilt but it might be close. If so then just work on the spacing of your WD I suppose. I like Fsmash vs crouching Puff but you need to be wary of her either jumping back if you're at full range to potentially hit or pressure you, or her roll in. The roll in is rare and of course you can just wait and grab it or whatever but it helps to be aware. Ftilt is okay if you can tipper at most percents but you have to be sure you'll tipper. Runup Nair is fairly good too. And run up grab is honestly so dumb because she is ungrabbale at certain frames of her landing or jumpsquat so I'd treat it more as a mixup unless you're fairly sure what she will do.

Stomp is an easy Fair/side B because it takes forever to come out. Knee is more of an issue but if it's weak knee you can often CC grab or side B that too, and if it's strong knee you can intercept it before he gets there and you can pivot grab and especially Fair both. But anyway vs Falcon it's extreme less is more. Don't throw out an attack unless you're really close to him or really far away OR he has a move out you can hit. Dtilt once in a while to make sure he's not dashing back on your approach and otherwise run up Nair if you get close to him, but it's a lot of not swinging in this matchup. That's a good starting point.

 

[quixotic]

Well admittedly I don't think I could see M2K very well during the GO! screen lol, even if I should expect he'd do things like that during that screen since he's done it a lot. But playing defense here and giving up stage isn't inherently bad. But I believe there are two things to talk about before going into that. You're asking again about your situation, and also asking about generally what to do against opponents who fake more. So let's answer your own situation first.

What kills you in your situation is your two/three dashes back after he gets tipper Fair'd. If you feel you always have to dash away after dashing in or moving forward, then that's bad muscle memory and you lose positional advantage from it. The third one is ambiguous of how bad it is because you still could have pressured his landing but opted to move away, which is a bit of a judgment call. Then you dash back a bit farther than necessary to avoid Dtilt and then commit to your own Dtilt super hard. It looks like you are waiting for him to do a move and then whiff punish him, which he correctly punishes seeing you enter run. So if you're mostly waiting and looking to whiff punish, which is a fine strategy, then you could have gotten closer to make him whiff when he was airborne or done a different play on his Dtilt such as Dtilt'ing in place or jumping in advance on his approach, or observing what he did out of your dash back, etc. If you wanted to interrupt him you could have Dtilt'd him long before he got into position to do his.

Looking frame by frame the first dash back I did after fair->short hop was before it was possible to see the double jump: do you think I still should have went forwards without this piece of information? I'm not sure if it makes a huge difference because I start moving forwards immediately after seeing the double jump, and only spend a few frames in this dash.

The second dash back I do as he lands: I guess it would have dodged wd dtilt after landing but maybe that's not worth playing around in that way. I'm thinking I shouldn't have committed to the second dash forwards after the foxtrot.

Out of a dash forwards how would you set up dtilt/jump? would this mean using wavedash down dtilt? Would the jump be an analog jump back? Or drifting forwards with the jump and fading back? Maybe when I do the foxtrot I could have let my dash end to be able to dtilt.

About the fakes I feel like you're saying that if they go into run they're putting themselves at risk of being intercepted, which makes sense.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Looks like you put your shield up for some reason after L-canceling. Otherwise dash in would have been good but either SH or WD in would be okay here I suppose. Moving forward before he could DJ puts you in range to hit him if he falls so it does encourage the DJ. Oh wait, you're suggesting you couldn't react to that DJ from when you were landing? Well then I suppose staying still or walking forward at least would have benefited then, but I do think a reaction is possible.

You had frame advantage as you moved in on his landing. The dash back you did there would certainly have dodged WD Dtilt, but he couldn't have even been close to hitting you with it since you moved back so early.

I assume you are asking about when you dashed in on his approaching Dtilt. When I said that comment about using Dtilt vs it, I was assuming you were either farther away or weren't in dash. You could WD down Dtilt out of that dash though, but I don't think it would beat much besides him dashing back then coming back in. But anyway, maybe it would be better if instead I said here that WD back if you are worried about approaches is a good idea. Moves you farther away and helps position you well to move back in with Dtilt if you'd like. That's one way to land Dtilt here.
And there are different ways to jump successfully here. Analog jump back isn't the best since you'd move away but it would keep you safe vs a followup attack after Dtilt like DA I suppose, but most other things like jump back a bit then drift in or even aerial in place depending on when you decide to jump would be fine. You get really close to him while he's in Dtilt lag so you could have jumped pretty close to beat his jump with just slight drift in.

Yes confirming run in is very important since pulling back isn't so easy then, and if they do pull back it's quite a commitment. Marth has big swings in stage control but they are slower swings than other top tiers on average.

 

[Plumpet]

What do you think of an approaching no FF late nair? Druggedfox has mentioned it being unexplored, and it seems like it would trick people if they’re used to DD grabbing a SH fair when they see a marth jump. It could probably give a nice knockdown if it hits

 

[Dr Peepee]

This is the reasoning behind why Mango could SH at people from across the stage and hit Fair with his Marth. So I stole it and know how that works as it plays on exactly what Druggedfox is talking about. The difference between Fair and Nair here is that Nair takes longer to come out and get to the good part, meaning you'd need to do it kind of early and also hope the opponent doesn't react to it starting to come out that well(though the first hit could maybe beat some jumps I guess). The reason I prefer the Fair is because you could either do it right before you land or empty land and it'd be hard to beat the mixup, whereas with Nair you could be more sure it's coming. Nair is better vs holding down though. Anyway in summary I like no FF Fair but am unsure about Nair but if you'd like to experiment then it has potential.

 

[Plumpet]

https://twitter.com/overshot_nair/status/1029101795157725186
https://twitter.com/overshot_nair/status/1028849859577688064

apparently falcon can invalidate a lot of marths punishes revolving around tech chases with fthrow/on a platform. Is there any good way for marth's punish game to hold up against falcon's when they know all these tricks?

 

[Dr Peepee]

So I tested a bit of this after it came out and found out that if you hit Falcon higher in his bounce then he can't do this hold down stuff, so that's one good solution. Sometimes waiting and pretending to swing or something so that they get up or roll or whatever can provide other opportunities depending on what you're looking for.

 

[Plumpet]

oh awesome. So would nair be good if you know they're gonna miss tech?

Also is there anything good to take from these leffen marth sets?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3I2YJ0pHYzA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLRyKusvUoQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57ZtidCNi0I

 

[Kotastic]

https://youtu.be/57ZtidCNi0I?t=377

From that timestamp until android dies, do you think there's improvements needed for Leffen's juggle or he did it near-perfectly.