Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[quixotic]

PP, I've been defaulting to delayed grab vs fox in close range situations vs shield to beat immediate spotdodge, but I've been playing a lot of fox's who fh to beat that exact timing. What mixups could I implement to come out on top of fox's mixing up immediate and delayed spotdodge/fh?
ex: https://clips.twitch.tv/OptimisticEsteemedWormTwitchRPG

Also how do you edgeguard fox sweetspot side b under dtilt?

 

[Dr Peepee]

In that specific clip, you could have turned around and grabbed out of WD lol but I know what you mean.

An easy solution is to just Fair instead as it can hit both(you could even SH and then just Nair/Dair if you confirm spotdodge at lower percent and Fair if they jump/shield or do nothing if they shield etc). You can also just stand just out of their Bair range and either grab the spotdodge or FH/DJ chase their FH away.

I just WD to edge and grab it. Nothing else hits it so that's all you can really do unless you go out there with Fair with like FH or runoff DJ, which can be useful but not exactly staple. So if you're turned around more, you just need to be more mindful of them coming into you and have the turnaround Jab/Fair/Dtilt practiced. However if they're farther away, there's really no reason not to do the turnaround. You can also manipulate if you want by WD'ing toward edge kind of early and then faking the edge grab and DJ Dair'ing them...etc etc etc

 

[Kotastic]

While I'm questioning how I can edgeguard and kill Sheik more efficiently, here is this edgeguard sequence where I fail to kill Sheik thrice: https://youtu.be/1pe2mYEvTS0?t=37s

-After the nair to cover ledgedash f-tilt, I fail to notice that Faceroll expended his DJ. This would've made my DJ towards ledge more threatening, and I could've done the M2K where he coaxs the sheik to recover immediately and do turn-around neutral b to catch the initial frames of up-B. However I fail to recognize that, and I opted to not waveland f-smash and instead do the safer and easier option to cover Faceroll's 50/50 Laudandus recovery (though in hindsight, I don't think regular get-up covers it) and throw him offstage again because I know he will amsah tech my up-B/f-smash.
-Second offstage sequence, I had a feeling he wouldn't recover low immediately, so I regrab the ledge to cover whatever stall tactics Faceroll had. Once again, I do the easy option which is to throw Sheik offstage and once again miss out on ledgedash f-smash.
-Third offstage sequence, I jump fair to cover Faceroll's low recovery stall to counter DJ dair from ledge. I could've rolled to cover all options Faceroll had, as if he went straight up he would've died and on stage was the perfect setup for tipper f-smash. I question though if I could've done more in this sequence, particularly if my jump fair was the right choice. There I screwed up thinking that he would go straight up, but i didn't even grab the ledge lmao.

Overall, do you have much inputs on how much I can improve edgeguarding Sheik or if I'm in the right track along my lines of thinking?

Additionally, I'm not really sure what to do in this scenario: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pe2mYEvTS0&feature=youtu.be&t=78s
Should I just back off in this kind of scenario?

 

[Dr Peepee]

After that Nair(especially after his DJ), I would have turned around and WD'd off to threaten DJ Bair. They either get hit by Bair and die or up-B early and I get to go back to edge and hit them again/they die. You could also have faked grabbing the edge and just gotten back onstage to Fair/Bair/Fsmash him out of his up-B.

Second instance, maybe could have Baired that too but it's harder, as is runoff DJ fair. You probably just need to fake edge grabbing here again, and can even do this from the DJ of course.

Third time you played that fairly well I thought, but you just needed to reverse Utilt or Fsmash if either of those can kill there. I'd think the reverse Utilt would at least but I guess I don't know the percents for sure.

I don't know which scenario you mean. When the opponent is on the edge?

 

[Kotastic]

I mean pressuring Sheik in the corner when she has access to fully charged needles, resulting me getting hit 18% from FH needles that cover so much, compounded with other options she has to escape from the corner.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Well, had you Dtilted her shield instead of Nair'd(or done FF Nair instead of non-FF....or moved more quickly out of the Nair you did perhaps since you may have gotten stuck there a moment) you would have had time to dodge her needles. Also if you (S)DI'd the needles you'd have avoided more of them. Also for holding down you would CC/ASDI down her Ftilt which is probably why you're doing that Nair anyway. If your percent were higher and you didn't want to do the Nair for whatever reason, then sure you could play back a little, or fake being closer and then pull back, or space later Fair/drifting back Fair so the needles miss, etc.

 

[Vino]

Hey guys, I'm happy this thread is still going. I check it periodically and there is always great info.

I want everyone's opinion on this: If kadano, magus, and hectohertz were in the same room, what kind of event would you want to see? I'm talking a panel to answer questions, real time analysis, anything your heart desires.

 

[Sylarius]

PP, can I ask what changed for you in your Apex 2015 GF sets with Armada where you lost 0-3 as Marth (2-0 as Falco in that set) and then beat him 3-0 as Marth? You mentioned at one point you tried to use your knowledge of the previous set and self-confidence going in, I think? What did you notice/decide to do differently? (If you're comfortable sharing)

 

[Dr Peepee]

The main thing was I stopped doing that stupid dash in Nair when he would keep going to a side platform. I don't even like doing that Nair but I just wasn't able to see like I normally could and that Nair can cover a lot. When I switched to Fair, and Fair'ing at timings Armada was playing at, the game changed.

 

[Sylarius]

Would you be willing to explain usage of aerials vs dtilt and grab in MUs a bit more?

Like v. Fox, when would you ever nair at 0%? If playing like your playstyle, is it generally good to avoid fair at lower %s unless they keep jumping into you? Usually I play like: Dtilt if they're dashing too much and I want to do something pokey and safe where I can still avoid getting combo'd a lot of the time even if I miss (via drill SDI or nair ASDI, or IASA), aerial if I need something to protect myself quick, or if I'm unsure if they may approach right away and I want to be safe about it, or if I'm trying to corner them. But especially on stages like FD, may it be better to limit aerial use more and to try and focus on using dtilt and grab more?

I guess, when might you dash back and when might you do a retreating aerial instead? Would you ever resort to more frequent aerials even if the other person isn't jumping much? (Primarily in MUs that aren't Puff).

I also remember you stating Leffen started to beat M2K until M2K took a more aerial approach. I'm having problems specifically identifying this though. I dislike playing aerial based though I jump v. peach and falco a lot, and probably more than I should vs falcon. My dtilt spacing still isn't always on point and I get punished even on hit for not spacing it properly often, so I resort to fully spaced nair/fair and drifting or dashing away to keep myself safe while still getting them into the corner...

Also here, when Mango reads you: https://youtu.be/g8v_NgYou3k?t=267

It looks like you nod to yourself and raise your eyebrows/smile kind of like you're impressed and almost resigned in acceptance of things like that to happen? Is that kind of accurate?

Lastly, I watched your set(s) with Leffen from MLG and it seems like soo much of the time, you attacked him while he was lasering. Keeping the pressure on is something that you seem miles ahead of pretty much everyone else. M2K is good at it often too but not to the same degree. I wish I could be more specific but I'm having a hard time identifying what is specifically/precisely different. Is it something like attack until you start getting interrupted or punished? Do you attack when you feel it's a good time to, or the other person may not be ready to respond appropriately, or both? How do you balance adding in dash dance iterations to your game? (Should you start only doing it once the other person starts intercepting you too often, like Mango v Wizzrobe at WTFox? (Often this causes them to start attacking first if you add too many iterations...)

Sorry if some of these questions are awkward lol. Sometimes when I write these questions I get a good idea of the answer already but I do appreciate and try to wrap my head around your answers.

 

[Dr Peepee]

You'd Nair at 0% if they were going to SH at you, if they might shield or go on the ground near you, or maybe some other odd situation like they'd run off of a platform at you. I personally wouldn't prefer Nair in some of these situations as reward is lower, but the percent on Nair and the pushback is still good for position. On FD, Fox will still want to jump a lot even if he's not using platforms, and jumping would avoid both Dtilt and grab. You'd be more likely to challenge a Fox FH/DJ with those moves than on platform levels of course.

Well dashing back gives you more space more quickly and could often give bigger reward with pivot grab. Retreating aerial is often safer if you can get it out since it puts out a definite hitbox that the opponent cannot outright beat without a very strong read(only in certain matchups). They both play off each other well as options though. If someone goes high to beat retreating Fair, then you could dash back and Uair or Fair them or dash again and grab. Etc

Yeah more or less.

My pressure is better because I understand threats and movement tools better. I'm willing to push in more but not so much I can't pull out and counterattack if need be. This new spacing either makes them come in or just try to call me on my wait. If they decide to wait then I get to push in and hit them/get close like I really want to. There isn't an easy answer to this question beyond this probably lol.

 

[quixotic]

Pp what do you think about fair dtilt on shield as a timing mixup?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Do you mean Fair then Dtilt, or Fair vs Dtilt? Or do you mean Fair and then change the Dtilt timing, or something else?

 

[quixotic]

I meant fair on shield and then dtilt immediately after.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I think that it's not a good idea normally. Marth is not a spacie and should not be doing tons of moves. He should be making them feel the helplessness of his range and disjoint which are his strengths. Fair to Dtilt gives small reward even if it does hit the opponent OOS, and often if the opponent does stay shielding the Marth may be so up-tempo he may continue to swing instead of observing at that time. There's also buffering some rolls during the Dtilt lag which cause problems. As a mixup it's okay because the opponent may see the Fair and not be sure of what to do and the Dtilt would exploit this. As a primary strategy however, I think it is very poor.

One time I saw a Kadano post about how Marth can do double Fair Dtilt on Link's shield and it's totally safe so I guess in that matchup it's good lol.

 

[quixotic]

I think that it's not a good idea normally. Marth is not a spacie and should not be doing tons of moves. He should be making them feel the helplessness of his range and disjoint which are his strengths. Fair to Dtilt gives small reward even if it does hit the opponent OOS, and often if the opponent does stay shielding the Marth may be so up-tempo he may continue to swing instead of observing at that time. There's also buffering some rolls during the Dtilt lag which cause problems. As a mixup it's okay because the opponent may see the Fair and not be sure of what to do and the Dtilt would exploit this. As a primary strategy however, I think it is very poor.

One time I saw a Kadano post about how Marth can do double Fair Dtilt on Link's shield and it's totally safe so I guess in that matchup it's good lol.

What do you think about dtilt in the ics matchup in particular? Ppu said in a video that he likes using aerial to dtilt to stop them from wavedashing out and keep them in the corner.

Also I have a follow up question: what do you do after hitting late fair on shield in the marth ditto to beat wd dtilt out of shield? I feel like I have to commit earlier vs shielding marth to beat it.

 

[Socrates]

How do you feel about catching FH (fox and falco mostly, others too) landing with tipper dtilt rather than trying to pressure them from below with Fair or Upair?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Dtilt is extremely good against ICs and should be heavily abused against them. So in that case you can Fair to Dtilt them more. But even then, they're very likely to roll or move OOS after Fair so you shouldn't get overly caught up in it against them either. If he's right on top of them in the corner, or close enough to drift in, then yeah SH'ing and drifting before Fair'ing into Dtilt can be okay.

Hmm in the Marth ditto, I've felt I could react to them coming forward OOS with my own Dtilt without having to do it early. If you're spaced outside of shield grab range, then you can Dtilt early and it doesn't matter since they can't do much about it anyway. It's good there too basically. The real issue with Fair to Dtilt comes from setting up Fair if I had to re-explain this. Earlier Fair and they can avoid Dtilt or CC/OOS punish, but later Fair and they can just hit you or move first. The Dtilt itself tends to be safe. I still dislike the idea of just pressing moves too often on shield as Marth, but yes maybe I should amend my statement to say that if you can get the Dtilt out then you're in good enough shape.

How do you feel about catching FH (fox and falco mostly, others too) landing with tipper dtilt rather than trying to pressure them from below with Fair or Upair?

Sometimes catching their landing with Dtilt is the best you can do and that still makes it a good option. Especially vs Falco who doesn't like losing frame advantage this is very okay. Vs Fox getting the positioning/knockdown can be pretty good too. You'd rather get Fair/Uair/grab for reward, but sometimes this can be too risky or predictable so Dtilt is okay.

 

[Sylarius]

My pressure is better because I understand threats and movement tools better. I'm willing to push in more but not so much I can't pull out and counterattack if need be. This new spacing either makes them come in or just try to call me on my wait. If they decide to wait then I get to push in and hit them/get close like I really want to. There isn't an easy answer to this question beyond this probably lol.

This explanation makes a lot of sense to me so far, but it sounds like there might be more complicated nuances to it in your opinion? It'd be cool if you want to delve into it a bit deeper. It's clear to me how foxes rarely get more than 1-2 lasers off on you without you either hitting them or baiting them into whiffing a move at you. And clearly your spacing is much more aggressive but you still manage to get people to whiff at you because you can make it really ambiguous as to whether you're close enough to hit/coming in or not. It also seems like even when you grab, you aren't usually explicitly dash dance punished for it, it's only when the other person is already attacking that you get hit, generally. Maybe I'm wrong about that, though.

 

[Kotastic]

PP, would you classify this as excess movement? https://youtu.be/1pe2mYEvTS0?t=4m24s

I've been sort of conditioned by many sheiks that they would DA/boost grab which is why I tend to go for the extra back dash there. Should I just concentrate with one full length of back dash instead? Anything I should note?

 

[quixotic]

How can I approach these jumps from sheik?

https://youtu.be/vdiHw7uKlk8?t=3m46s

I feel like I should shift my range forwards more to be able to threaten the landing with grab but moving into that range seems really unsafe.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Hey guys, I'm happy this thread is still going. I check it periodically and there is always great info.

I want everyone's opinion on this: If kadano, magus, and hectohertz were in the same room, what kind of event would you want to see? I'm talking a panel to answer questions, real time analysis, anything your heart desires.

Whatever current projects they're working on I'd love to know about. Probably also things like seeing pro clips and having them break it down with their specific knowledge sets and whatever tangential knowledge they have related to the clips. If they had any demonstrations of obscure tech or mechanics that led to funny things or were just unusual perspectives on common myths that'd be fine as well. Kinda hard for me to say more since I'm not exactly versed mechanically like they are lol.

PP, would you classify this as excess movement? https://youtu.be/1pe2mYEvTS0?t=4m24s

I've been sort of conditioned by many sheiks that they would DA/boost grab which is why I tend to go for the extra back dash there. Should I just concentrate with one full length of back dash instead? Anything I should note?

Not really excessive there as per usual standards, but if the dashes were without intent then maybe the last one or two were excessive then.

You should not have dashed in unless you were prepared for him to move in as well. In other words, you should have observed during your dash back. Failing that, you should have pivot SH'd in place or delayed your action after initial dash back to observe since you had time.

How can I approach these jumps from sheik?

https://youtu.be/vdiHw7uKlk8?t=3m46s

I feel like I should shift my range forwards more to be able to threaten the landing with grab but moving into that range seems really unsafe.

You cannot intercept the jump or landing really at the space you play at. You need to be closer. Also if you go frame by frame you'll see you jumped only after Sheik jumped and very very far away. You'd have been better off just getting closer and threatening the landing with either Dtilt or drifting in after Sheik lands with Fair or just being close and forcing her dash/Ftilt/shield.

You may want to practice moving around Sheik's aerials while staying closer to her if you feel unsafe at that range. You can exert way more pressure closer to her. Remember, Sheik's DA/grab are very high commitment for her so she won't go for them often if you discourage them a couple times.

 

[TheWill44]

How do I beat Marth as Kirby? Kirby is my secondary and I want to pull him out at my local and beat everyone with him.

 

[Sylarius]

PP, I think you passed over my post

 

[Dr Peepee]

How do I beat Marth as Kirby? Kirby is my secondary and I want to pull him out at my local and beat everyone with him.

you stop that

PP, I think you passed over my post

I don't have much to say about it. The nuances you mention would just overcomplicate things, so I cannot easily answer.

I push in, observe, and go from there sometimes. If I get hit more when I'm moving back then it's likely I'm trying to pull back after this initial observation.

 

[quixotic]

Whatever current projects they're working on I'd love to know about. Probably also things like seeing pro clips and having them break it down with their specific knowledge sets and whatever tangential knowledge they have related to the clips. If they had any demonstrations of obscure tech or mechanics that led to funny things or were just unusual perspectives on common myths that'd be fine as well. Kinda hard for me to say more since I'm not exactly versed mechanically like they are lol.


Not really excessive there as per usual standards, but if the dashes were without intent then maybe the last one or two were excessive then.

You should not have dashed in unless you were prepared for him to move in as well. In other words, you should have observed during your dash back. Failing that, you should have pivot SH'd in place or delayed your action after initial dash back to observe since you had time.


You cannot intercept the jump or landing really at the space you play at. You need to be closer. Also if you go frame by frame you'll see you jumped only after Sheik jumped and very very far away. You'd have been better off just getting closer and threatening the landing with either Dtilt or drifting in after Sheik lands with Fair or just being close and forcing her dash/Ftilt/shield.

You may want to practice moving around Sheik's aerials while staying closer to her if you feel unsafe at that range. You can exert way more pressure closer to her. Remember, Sheik's DA/grab are very high commitment for her so she won't go for them often if you discourage them a couple times.

I think I could definitely dash around aerials/tilts, I’m just hesitant to move into dash attack/rc dtilt range. Do you think sheik can’t dash attack on reaction to marth shifting to a closer range?

 

[Dr Peepee]

She certainly could, but she's unlikely to. What if you just jump in that space? Then you beat her DA and her RC Dtilt. She is discouraged from approaching without a good read on you then. Also remember Sheik isn't poking with a great Dtilt like ours so she is committing much more. I find that Sheiks aren't willing to make that commitment very often in general, and especially not if you stuff it a time or two. Heck if you're REALLY worried about the moves then play in that space but hold down often. There is no reason not to force her to deal with your threats and discourage hers here. If you don't then it'll feel like a very hard matchup since you can't really grab/hit her landings or tilts.

 

[Kotastic]

Hey PP. I really do feel myself getting significantly better at the game the more I play and question interactions. That being said, there's some interactions I would like to question in the Falco mu because I'm getting tired of being farmed by Squid lol.

https://youtu.be/FolhvDHnkwc?t=8s - Here, I would postulate that take laser dash back would work here since that laser was barely an approaching one. Suppose that it was a full drift forward laser approach; is this just a losing position for Marth? I found that the general take laser strategy only work if the Falco is doing non-approaching laser or if the Marth is far away enough from approaching laser.

https://youtu.be/FolhvDHnkwc?t=43s - I would 100% DA right here because this is the position I would suspect a Falco would do an approaching laser. This is my general go-to solution to stuff out approaching laser, which I'm not sure if you would agree with me with my assessment. I like DA because it sets up a tech chase scenario in which i could potentially kill falco. I think I heard that you would prefer approaching side-B or WD jab, but I simply don't see it at low percents where it doesn't even knock down. Also, how do you feel about Rudolph's approach where he crosses up and DA? To me, it kinda seems like he overcomplicated it but if it works, it works I guess.

https://youtu.be/FolhvDHnkwc?t=1m43s - Do you think Squid simply did a wrong option here? He did an approaching laser against Marth landing which is great because Marth barely has any answers (counter is the only one I can think of lol), but instead he just shields when I think that's a prime time to shine grab or something.

https://youtu.be/FolhvDHnkwc?t=3m35s - Why do you think Squid took a moment to wait after an approaching laser? To me, it looked like he left himself wide open to get WD up-tilt (interesting option, I would DA), but I may be missing something else here. Inputs?

Another question regarding grounded, floaty matchups such as Luigi or Samus: How do you generally deal with walk/WD f-tilt? My go-to solution has been jump nair or shield since I find that they generally stuff out my d-tilt either through CC, WP, or something. I also think it's hard to WP their f-tilt with a grab or something due to the really fast cooldown of the move, but I might just suck at timing. A friend of mine suggested that I should just walk d-tilt to establish my space, thoughts on that?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Yeah if Falco is too close when he lands laser then dash back or jab aren't very good. If Marth SDI'd laser away in this position he could maybe have been able to jab/dash safely.

DA is more okay against Falco and Marth than in other matchups, but I still don't like it in general. If you want to abuse it against Falco I think that's fine. And against Falco I think getting Falco close without a laser out is basically as good as a big knockdown without all the risk of a move like DA, so I would prefer the tools you mentioned most likely.

He did not do a good option here which is why he shielded. He expected his first laser against falling Marth to hit(and make Marth shield/be still probably) but he missed. Then as he lasered forward he realized he did not have extra frame advantage AND the Marth moved in. Squid should have been hit. This is why he shielded, but Rudolph also shielded because he wasn't prepared either I suppose. They both screwed up pretty hard here I believe. Rudolph could've done jab in place or side B or a dash aerial or Fsmash etc to hit Squid.

Squid overcomplicates things and tries to over-DD to set up his approach. Had he pressed in sooner with laser his DD may have worked more for him, but because he lasered from farther away and for a while he encouraged Rudolph to move in since he was tired of being locked down and didn't feel especially threatened by Squid's laser threats. So he did leave himself open, but in context is where the real issue was here, though he still shouldn't have spammed DD like that without purpose as it doesn't help you no matter what character you are.

Jumping over Ftilt isn't that viable unless you're jumping over the very tip of it. Either stuff it before it comes out(during WD lag or startup frames in the walk example), or CC it. Walk Dtilt would work okay here. Dtilt in general is pretty good since it's hard for them to get between Dtilts and if you mix spamming it and walking between using it they can really struggle to get in. There's a spacing vs Luigi where he can still slide between Dtilts and you don't want to be in this space so just jump/walk/WD/dash out of there when you find yourself there. Vs Samus it's similar but her WD doesn't go as far(though I think her Ftilt is bigger? feels that way anyway lol). Certainly practice setting up various WPs if you'd like, but if you're caught off guard by one, just take your space. Doing this and outranging the characters and forcing them to WD back is great for you anyway.

 

[Kotastic]

While I generally like stuffing out Luigi due to his traction of just hitting him in general, I find that trying stuff out Samus's stuff in general is hard because she CC d-smashes or something. Would this not be a problem if I space d-tilt better? Also Samus's CC is also a big problem if I try to approach fair, is this why generally being in the air vs. a grounded Samus is bad?

Are you saying vs. Samus/Luigi that I shouldn't be within her WD f-tilt range and spam d-tilt? And if I were to get hit by f-tilt, I should just reposition and try to outrange them, etc.?

Oh yeah, I forgot to ask regarding juggling: When Marth is on a platform and sheik is directly above me with a falling dair, should I just drop platform and DJ nair or something?

 

[maclo4]

Having trouble with fox full hop bair lately. Mostly I've just been getting baited with fadeback, double jumps, or trading (not in a good way usually) when they decide to full drift towards me or mix up ff timing. I was playing against a worse player who abused FH bair a lot so I got a lot of time to play around with how to beat it, but I was realizing I was only really able to punish it consistently because he wasn't mixing up his drift or ff at all. I haven't really been able to test against a better player in depth but what I was theorizing was that I could safely cover the full drift in with fair/uair, and if they DJ or drift back its not a big deal cause late fair seems safe from that position regardless. Obviously if they consistently drift back or something I can adapt and punish that, but as a starting point I feel like thats pretty safe ^^. Even tho it seems pretty safe I'm just like ugh fox looks so punishable when he full hops I want to be able to punish it more consistently. Should I just accept that fox has a lot of mixups from FH or do you have a better system to cover more options at once?

Oh also, that tip you gave me about using dtilt like lasers.. so helpful. I was grinding with this falco from my college and he's been starting to pull ahead of me recently and I just asking him like "what are you doing to beat me lately" and he just told me he was punishing my dash backs with lasers then a few things just clicked. Like I realized when I was dashing back a lot was in close quarters AKA in threat range, then the whole TR concept just made a lot more sense somehow and I started to see my own TR options and other people's better. Then the thing about using dtilt like lasers comes in cause I just started using dtilt to call out/read other people who dash back in TR a lot then just a cascade of other TR habits. Felt pretty sick being able to notice things more clearly tho so thankssssssss

 

[quixotic]

How do you pressure ganon's shield in the corner without getting hit by fair/dair oos?

 

[Lil Bucket Hat]

When are any of you bruhs gonna get good enough to prove that marth is the 2nd best in melee?

 

[Dr Peepee]

While I generally like stuffing out Luigi due to his traction of just hitting him in general, I find that trying stuff out Samus's stuff in general is hard because she CC d-smashes or something. Would this not be a problem if I space d-tilt better? Also Samus's CC is also a big problem if I try to approach fair, is this why generally being in the air vs. a grounded Samus is bad?

Are you saying vs. Samus/Luigi that I shouldn't be within her WD f-tilt range and spam d-tilt? And if I were to get hit by f-tilt, I should just reposition and try to outrange them, etc.?

Oh yeah, I forgot to ask regarding juggling: When Marth is on a platform and sheik is directly above me with a falling dair, should I just drop platform and DJ nair or something?

Yeah if you're not tippering Dtilt that's going to get you messed up a lot. You don't need to RC Dtilt really in these matchups, so getting correctly spaced WD or landing from SH into Dtilt should give you more precision. And yeah you don't want to jump into Samus too much if you can help it. If you want to approaching Nair occasionally to keep her from CC'ing so much you could, but if you're going to Fair you want to not drift in so much and also do a very late one to help you get a shield in time.

You can be within range, but you need to be where they can't hit you without their WD but you can still threaten them with Dtilt/Fair. If you're in a range where you can't easily get to them but they can WD to you then that's less comfortable and you either need to back up to a more reactive range or push in to the previously mentioned range.

Which platform? I'm assuming you mean side but I don't know. You can shield grab it, Fair/Bair/Uair it before it comes out fully, Utilt/Fair/grab it if she tries to go beside you, and shield grab or DD grab or drop through Uair or Utilt if she wants to land on top of you. There are other options too like dropping earlier and Fsmash'ing but this can depend on some things.

Having trouble with fox full hop bair lately. Mostly I've just been getting baited with fadeback, double jumps, or trading (not in a good way usually) when they decide to full drift towards me or mix up ff timing. I was playing against a worse player who abused FH bair a lot so I got a lot of time to play around with how to beat it, but I was realizing I was only really able to punish it consistently because he wasn't mixing up his drift or ff at all. I haven't really been able to test against a better player in depth but what I was theorizing was that I could safely cover the full drift in with fair/uair, and if they DJ or drift back its not a big deal cause late fair seems safe from that position regardless. Obviously if they consistently drift back or something I can adapt and punish that, but as a starting point I feel like thats pretty safe ^^. Even tho it seems pretty safe I'm just like ugh fox looks so punishable when he full hops I want to be able to punish it more consistently. Should I just accept that fox has a lot of mixups from FH or do you have a better system to cover more options at once?

Oh also, that tip you gave me about using dtilt like lasers.. so helpful. I was grinding with this falco from my college and he's been starting to pull ahead of me recently and I just asking him like "what are you doing to beat me lately" and he just told me he was punishing my dash backs with lasers then a few things just clicked. Like I realized when I was dashing back a lot was in close quarters AKA in threat range, then the whole TR concept just made a lot more sense somehow and I started to see my own TR options and other people's better. Then the thing about using dtilt like lasers comes in cause I just started using dtilt to call out/read other people who dash back in TR a lot then just a cascade of other TR habits. Felt pretty sick being able to notice things more clearly tho so thankssssssss

I saw a post that Falcons had labbed out you could true CC dash JC grab Fox even if he did his latest Bair before shine could come out. I bet Marth could do it too since his grab is so big, but I guess I don't know for sure(this would be easier vs the drift in you described as well).

I like to either be kinda close when Fox FHs to actually beat the mixup, or just play for coverage/conditioning/occasional reads if I'm not. And yeah be sure not to assume they won't drift in, as well as learn how far they can drift with your own testing. If you learn that plus how to either get under them quickly or how to react quickly to FH it helps a lot. Most people sit in one place and let the Fox drift into them without them realizing they need to move. I just force myself to either long dash or WD especially whenever I see Fox FH to be sure I adjust my horizontal space and make their lives harder. But yeah, you won't be able to always beat it because it's really so good of a mixup so you play for different coverages.

Also I hope people read your story at the end here. So many people(Marths) have this dash back habit and it's killing them! I'm glad you worked that out and also were willing to talk to your training partner. I hope more people follow your example.

How do you pressure ganon's shield in the corner without getting hit by fair/dair oos?

If the Ganon is cornered, then you don't need to do much. Just hit his shield with a Fair then wait, or just wait. If he jumps you Fair him. Dair OOS shouldn't happen since you shouldn't be trying to rush in with Dtilt or grab ever as that gives up your advantageous position.

If the Ganon stops shielding as a result of this, then just go back to some DD'ing to dodge an aerial or dash attack he may try and Fair him if he jumps. Not being able to retreating aerial means he'd probably try to go for a platform here, which is a Fair.

When are any of you bruhs gonna get good enough to prove that marth is the 2nd best in melee?

When we get to nerf Pikachu >

 

[maclo4]

Okay that's good to hear I'm not crazy for thinking FH is hard to punish. When you say you play for coverage against FH what do you mean tho? like cover a few options but dont hard commit to anything?

And yea it's definitely necessary to have someone you play with a lot tell you your habits cause just reading online about all this stuff doesn't make it click in real gameplay for me

 

[Dr Peepee]

Yeah you play to beat some things but don't pretend you can beat everything. You switch up coverage based on what they like to do and your past coverage. So if you cover drift in some, then you could probably switch to covering DJ or empty land or falling straight back down and whatever overlaps there, etc.

 

[maclo4]

Sweet thanks. So what I'm struggling with now is the part about "trying to be close to them when they FH". Not sure whether I should try to preemptively position myself or do it reactively? Like against some people I've been able to kinda predict when they might FH and move in under/closer to them as more of a prediction, but Im not sure to what degree thats even necessary. Was having a hard time doing it on reaction tho

 

[AirFair]

PP, when you say that you like to be kinda close to beat Fox's fh mixup, what can marth do at that spacing to beat it? The different options that I've seen/used to beat it were dashing under fox (I can't really explain this really well, but it seems to mess up his attack when he's drifting forward/expecting you to back up or stay in front of him) and fh fair/uair since you're close enough to hit him out of the air at that spacing.

The first option loses to fox drifting back with his fh, so I don't think marth could get around him from a closeish spacing, but that opens up marth fh attacking fox. Also if fox jumps to a platform then marth has to be able to fight that/not get too close to where shield drop becomes threatening, which could mean backing up some before trying to attack fox again.

The second one can whiff against dj, and that can get marth hit from platforms sometimes the way I see it right now.

 

[maclo4]

I dont think fh'ing as marth is necessary to beat fox fh. It can technically beat fox FH, but it doesn't leave you in a good position to follow up easily. Obviously not pp, but I think staying close to fox as he FH's is good bc you can move under him easily and sh upair from the position and just cover a lot of things

 

[AirFair]

sh aerials vs fox fh work to challenge his landing, but you can get blown up for swinging if fox dj's over the aerial, so I don't see myself doing that too often. Getting under him with sh uair works if he doesn't dj, so it covers that for sure, but the dj part is what makes me less likely to throw one out like that. An fh uair I might consider if I want to maybe cover him going to the top platform, but I would have to confirm that first.