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Important Carefully Ask EG.PPMD about the Tiara Guy

Discussion in 'Marth' started by Cactuar, Oct 4, 2007.

  1. Dr Peepee

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    Smash DI DEFINITELY helps you get out and I think you should do it ASAP. If Falco is hitting you on your left side, then SDI'ing Dair and Shine to the right makes it really hard to consistently follow up for example. This is just a starter idea and if you watch other players(especially Mango) do SDI vs Falco you'll get a feel for how to do it well.
     
    Big Daddy Josh likes this.
  2. Bones0

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  3. Big Daddy Josh

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    Yea I got to start actively thinking about smash DIing more. Hopefully once I get it ingrained in my head I won't be combo'd to death all the time lol. I will start looking for that when I watch videos now too, I never really considered it.
     
    #15163 Big Daddy Josh, Dec 10, 2014
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2014
  4. Clebus

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    Defs sdi the shine at least youve got plenty of freezy frames.
     
  5. -=Untamed-Beast=-

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    Go to a tournament and make SDI your in-game tag.
     
  6. Decipio-Carmen

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    Hey guys. I'm struggling with the Marth vs. Fox neutral game. Approaching Fox with D-tilts seems risky because he could do an aerial and I feel like when both characters are really close to each other, it's extremely hard to react. I was watching the most recent M2K vs. Hax sets and it seems like M2K just dashes around and looks for a grab and occasionally throws out a nair... but I don't see the method behind the madness. When to nair? when to shield? The neutral game just seems extremely random to me. (Fox could CC u-smash, shield -> u-smash OOS, run up and shine, mix up drill/nair approaches, run-in grab, or even do random u-smashes) What should I be looking out for and is there a general flow-chart I can follow for the neutral game? It just seems that the neutral game has gotten so random and volatile with the all the '20XX' business, and I don't think that the Marth metagame has advanced as much.
     
    #15166 Decipio-Carmen, Dec 17, 2014
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2014
  7. Dr Peepee

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    You are right in that Dtilt is not to be overused vs Fox since he likes jumping so much. It's mainly used if Fox wants to play a grounded game/you keep beating his air game. When he jumps after Dtilt threats(if Dtilt is needed) you can Fair/Nair his approaching Nair/Dair but you can also pivot grab those things for more damage if you're more certain of it.

    The other options you listed are when Fox runs up and pretty much all of them can be halted by spaced SH Fair(middle or late Fair.) You should look into more of what Marth can do when he moves forward I think. Always waiting can make you a bit predictable(but it's not actually so bad in this metagame since most Foxes approach a lot.)
     
  8. Lloyd_Reed

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    any advice in the ganondorf matchup?
     
  9. Locke Robster

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    @Dr Peepee I was taking a look at your pools set vs. Leffen at MLG Anaheim and there were several moments in there that I had questions about.



    @5:49 - You get shined onto the ledge and then you ledge-hop fair Leffen. I feel like this was risky as Leffen can CC that move. Why did you choose to fair here?

    @6:20 - Why do you side-b early when recovering here? I don't see a reason for doing it early here and it put you in lag to get you punished.

    @7:40 - Why did you jump to fair Leffen's illusion? I feel like a better option would be to just stand there and double jab, which looks like to me it would have even caught the shorten.

    @7:49 - Why did you roll right after you got up from the ledge? Were you scared? Technical flub?

    @8:06
    - Why did you choose to fsmash Leffen at the edge and not running into dtilt? I felt like you could have not traded there.

    @9:18
    - Why did you choose to run-off up-air instead of a run-off fair? You could have continued the combo in a more favorable position and possibly even end in a dair to get Leffen off stage and take the stock.

    @12:09 - I notice you pivot nair in neutral a lot. Didn't you say it's not a good idea to nair in neutral before? I've seen you do it multiple times so far and I'm wondering why you make that decisions in neutral. I'm guessing you knew Leffen was going to jump?

    @15:56
    - Do you think ftilt would have been a better move to hit Leffen out of his Firefox instead of fsmash? I suggest ftilt cause it starts from the bottom instead from the top, but there might be another move you could have maybe used.
     
    Kankato and Big Daddy Josh like this.
  10. Big Daddy Josh

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    ^ I really hope he answers these questions! It would be cool to see inside PP's thought process.
     
  11. Dr Peepee

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    Forenote: I played miserably vs Leffen so I have half-reasons at best for much of what you may be confused about(without looking at anything yet.) With that said, I'll answer each individually.

    5:49- If you'll notice, it was not a rising Fair but a delayed Fair. So I intended to circumvent some CC punishes with it. However, I completely didn't react to the fact that he was behind me and committed way too hard to that Fair lol. Still it's an alright option.

    6:20- The side B was okay, but I just kept falling into him which is a super free hit LOL. I could have gone low too or taken an airdodge risk before trying something so "meta" as falling straight into him.

    7:40- yep you're just right. no other comments.

    7:49- Fear. I had kept getting beat for every action prior to that one so I just insta-rolled to avoid what I half-figured would be an inevitable punish. In more clear-headed matches, I would have either at least regrabbed once or gotten up and observed while I was unable to act standing up to see whether I should roll or choose another option.

    8:06- Completely correct.

    9:18- That's a pretty hard call. I had some different options there like rising FH Fair to catch his DJ or carry him so I could react if he DJ'd later, but I'm less certain about whether I could have tippered a runoff Fair. If I didn't tipper I'm not very sure I could have followed up since his percent was quite low.

    12:09- <.<......So you can Nair in neutral backwards or in place basically lol. That's more of the real rule but since so many people push forward and Nair or don't zone correctly with it either it's just better to tell them not to Nair lol. Also, M2K does Nairs in place vs Fox and I shamelessly stole it LOL.

    For the Nair in question, I moved away after losing a bit of advantage so I could be more likely to connect with it.

    15:56- Lol shoulda Dtilted/jabbed lol. Fsmash is WAY too difficult to time when FF is involved so I don't support using that option there for others and of course myself at all.

    I hope this aids your understanding =)
     
  12. Espi

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    Stages against Falcon? Up until now I've played Fox in the MU, so I'm not too sure about stages. Falcons insta ban Fountain, so go to Yoshis or Battlefield? I know FD is a ban for Marth, Dreamland and PS are generally Falcon favored stages. Thoughts?
     
  13. Big Daddy Josh

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    Honestly, I feel like it comes to down to what you're personally comfortable with.
    - In theory, Falcon does not like smaller maps (Yoshi's and FoD) for the lack of space to move; and loves big stages such as(FD, PS, and DL 64).
    - In practice, BF is the stage I mostly strike to since they ban YS and FoD, and I ban DL 64 and FD. but I've had Falcons strike to FoD against me, and CP me to PS instead of DL. The only stage I feel is bad for Marth is FD, even then he can still punish Falcon pretty hard there too. which is why I feel it comes down to personal preference.
     
  14. Scaremonger

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    There is literally no reason to ever play marth vs Falcon on pokemon stadium, and there's equally little reason to not strike to battlefield. Marth vs Falcon is the most stage dependent matchup in the game, Marth wins for free on YS and FoD, and Falcon wins for free on DL64 and FD. Not counterpicking to your super hard CPs is pretty much throwing the set away, which is why the matchup should never be played on PS. Dreamland is also terrible for Marth. Marth's sword takes up a tiny percentage of the stage, his punishes on platforms are bad because of the height, Falcon has tons of room to run around and not get cornered, etc. FoD is probably better for Falcon than people have traditionally thought, now that shield dropping is becoming pretty standard. It still sucks against Marth though. This matchup is the least dependent on personal preference of any s-tier matchup by such a huge margin. Even if you don't mind DL64, Falcon is still going to **** you up on it.
     
    #15174 Scaremonger, Dec 20, 2014
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2014
    net1234 likes this.
  15. Big Daddy Josh

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    I never really thought about it that way, but I guess neither did this Falcon I played in bracket on tuesday lol. We struck to FoD (i won), then he CP'd me to PS and I won. Then again we aren't top players, so maybe I just havent experienced playing top Falcons on those stages.
     
  16. Scaremonger

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    Yeah, the counterpicking in this MU is so big. If you lose on battlefield, you're kind of ****ed. I'd honestly go as far as saying it's a 7-3 matchup on each character's respective counterpick stages. It's a really interesting dynamic, imo, but it sucks when you're on the bad end of the stick, lol.
     
  17. Umbreon

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    i would advocate pokemon stadium against falcon over battlefield, the high platform on battlefield means that you can lose momentum easily if you have positional advantage if he simply chooses to respect block and then jumps away as a means to reset to neutral aka is playing vs marth correctly. for whatever reason people seem to think that pokemon stadium is only good for fastfallers but marth is quite good on that stage because it lets him hold offensive momentum much better. frankly you're probably fine as a marth player if you just go to pokemon randomly anyway, since even fountain can be tricky against a good fox/falco that understands the oos game vs marth.
     
    Bones0 likes this.
  18. Swann

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    Jumping away as a means to reset to neutral? Does this work because Marth can only grab during blockstrings if he has conditioned the opponent?

    I've always been a bit hesitant to jump in that kind of situation, since being above Marth so often leads to bad things. Can you explain a bit more what you mean?
     
  19. Big Daddy Josh

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    I also personally like Stadium against fox/falco/falcon. It's like FD with 2 short platforms I can abuse and no top platform for them to escape to, minus the transformations.
     
  20. Scaremonger

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    Yeah, but you can't strike to PS, lol. Yoshi's and FoD are both more potent counterpicks than PS, so there's no reason to ever go there.
     
  21. Umbreon

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    fod is highly MU dependent, i'd rather go to ps than fod against fox falco sheik, and peach is a toss-up imo. just saying you shouldn't write it off, marth is just really good there.
     
  22. AbsoluteBlack

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    Umbreon he's talking specifically against Falcon
     
  23. Umbreon

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    i am too but i can still address the cast at large since a lot of it applies to other relevant characters
     
  24. Bones0

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    I think Marth's overrated on FoD. The platforms mess with his already really good combos, he doesn't deal well with being above or below low plats when the opponent is under or above him, and he doesn't have as much room to abuse his superior ground movement. Most FFers just suck at maneuvering around the low plats which is the main reason you see FFers ban it or non-FFers pick it.
     
    #15184 Bones0, Dec 25, 2014
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2014
  25. Umbreon

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    fod is a tradeoff of sorts, on one hand marth can use the differing platform heights to layer hitboxes as a weird way to take stage and/or get random free hits, and thats okay because the stage makes it awkward to punish that how you usually would on the l cancels. on the other hand, fox/falco also lose their standard neutral options, but frankly they usually need to rely on them like a cornerstone A game than marth does and don't really have issues working good platform movement as a substitute. ofc falcon just sucks there. personally i'd take fox/falco to FD first, YS 2nd, and i'd ban DL64 rather than PS. in the tournaments where you can't ban starters, at least fox/falco players tend to snap pick PS so they might CP wrong against you anyway.
     
  26. Dr Peepee

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    PS also allows Falcon to hold his own offensive momentum and especially punishes better there. Not sure how to feel about Marth vs Falcon on either level though since the DD game between them is so specific. You are correct that Falcon makes better use of the platforms than Marth does, but I think Falcon would also function better on PS transformations than Marth for similar reasons(all transformations but rock perhaps).



    It's a bit tough to react to jump-ins by and large. Marth has to make a pretty big commitment to counterattack on reaction so if someone moves away then the situation is reset, but of course not totally reset in that Falcon gets a read and Marth is a bit off-balance perhaps.

    No idea how to feel about FoD. Very strange level. It's wonderful that people can't get away from Marth by any means there though, it just sucks even if he loses a minor exchange so edge play becomes quite important.

    Fox on YS seems like a gamble/slightly losing battle to me more and more as I think and play and look at it. He just gets to manipulate that top platform so well and the general platform layout means his quick aerial presence is almost always felt. Punishment is extremely strong here though so if Marth can score grabs/hits at decent percents that helps a lot. The slant also allows for gimps and kills that aren't normally possible as well. Doesn't feel like it mitigates neutral to me though. I would take at least Fox to PS over YS as I think more about it.

    Anything I didn't respond to of yours I felt was correct or I only had minor squabbles with.
     
  27. Umbreon

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    yeah i'm not as solid about the stage choices there either since there's so many things to consider with the trade-offs for each. that said, even if falcon can retain offensive momentum right back on PS, i would probably still pick it over BF since i think the difference between the two is a net marginal gain for marth.
     
  28. Dr Peepee

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    In my experience I have preferred smaller levels vs Falcon just because of the disjoint beating out Falcon's moves and his don't tend to come out quickly enough to be a problem on smaller levels. It is also true I haven't played vs a thoughtful abuse of the platforms though so I'd like to see where that could lead. I imagine training with $mike for apex will help me learn more about this.
     
  29. djmath

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    I've found that recently I've been approaching too much and too hard because I frequently get impatient playing marth. I know that I shouldn't, but at the end of the day, something in me just wants to approach with shdf even though it's unsafe. I'll dash attack someone's shield instead of grabbing it, I'll whiff grab instead of dtilt, and I'll go for a sub-optimal attack when I could get a re-grab. How do I approach? when do I approach? Why do I approach? Should I switch to falco so I can just do insane laser pressure and pillar combos even though it will ultimately take more work to get good with falco than get better with marth?
     
  30. Dr Peepee

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    I'll be honest, many people are not suited to play Marth unless their thinking about the game changes. Marth struggles to succeed if you want to jump at them and attack often. It can probably be done but I would not advise learning that type of thing outright. Marth relies on mantras such as "less is more"(referring to how doing less attacks achieves more threats and rewards). With spacies, your threats are more direct and it's much more acceptable to go in. If you want to attack more often as Marth, then do not press forward so much to do it. Do no more than two quick attacks in a row. Hits will come as you observe how your opponent responds to being zoned out. You'll know when you move in without attacking. You'll know when to stand still or keep DD'ing. Again, if you want to move forward and attack more, you want one of the two spacies. Marth can only do this once he learns the type of thinking I'm talking about, and not to as great of an extent as those characters.

    I suggest thinking about what you really want to do in the game and what "good" Marth looks like. Try to make that happen if that's what you really want out of the game.
     
    net1234 and djmath like this.
  31. Bones0

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    Switching to Falco won't make your impatient approaching any better. It might actually make it worse. Instead of trying to treat the symptom (your approaches are ineffective), treat the disease: your lack of self control and self discipline.

    Next time you play, for every single game, Hax is your god. This thread is your holy bible. Use the "HAX" tag if you must. You will not approach. Not because it is a bad idea or because someone told you to, but because you are simply not the type of player who does that. Patience is now the only facet of the game that is relevant to you, and losses can only mean one of two things:
    1. You were less patient than your opponent.
    2. You executed your patience improperly.
     
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  32. ItsChon

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    Do you have any training regimen, and if so what kind? As you became a better and more experienced Smash player, I'm sure your training and practice time changed, but can you remember when you first started out? Any tips or tricks you might have so that we can condition our brain to get used to doing the complex combos and movements such as Wavedashing/landing without having to look down at our controllers? What would you recommend us beginners to do if we want to slowly get to the average level of a semi professional player. While my main focus for Melee is to have fun while playing it, I still want to be fairly good at the game. After all, winning IS fun.

    Edit: Sorry if you've answered this before, but 300 page thread is 300 pages.
     
    #15192 ItsChon, Dec 30, 2014
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2014
  33. T-R3X

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  34. ItsChon

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  35. toastbread

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    I'm having trouble in the Fox/Falco MUs at lower percents specifically in the range 0-10. A lot of times my moves will get crouch cancelled and I'll get hit even when I throw out Dairs and Nairs with Falco. Lately I've just been lasering them and poking them with moves until I can get them in the range I can comfortable hit them with an approachable move and lead into a shine. Is there any trick really to dealing with the lower percents in these matchups because I know falco should have the advantage at earlier percents. Also a lot of times I won't know how to deal with Fox's double jump in neutral. It's really fast and a lot of time it will beat out my approaches. Zoning fox out with lasers has been working for me but sometimes I feel playing this way doesn't teach me much and I want to approach more often in the MU.
     
  36. Swann

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    I think you're looking for this subforum...
     
    #15196 Swann, Jan 3, 2015
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2015
  37. dyl0n

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    I've got a question regarding sword dancing. I have the timing down for all variable speeds when doing it on air, but when I actually use it on an opponent it seems to go at a slower pace and I never execute it properly. I don't know why it happens like that or how to get around it. Any explanations?
     
  38. net1234

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    hey guys this is probably a difficult question to answer. when marth gets a grab (on say battlefield) on a fox, does he have the ability to 0-death fox without any reads? if they di properly do they get a chance to up b in a position where they can make it a 50/50? Im just wondering can marth really cover every option? i feel like when i get a grab and my opponent does not end up dead ive made a mistake (which most the time i have). is marths grab a guaranteed kill? this might be more of a mew2king question then a ppmd question but any answer is a good one
     
    #15198 net1234, Jan 3, 2015
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2015
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  39. Bones0

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    lol BURN. Step up your combo game, PP.
     
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  40. Dr Peepee

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    im fine with being known for neutral over punishment. my punishment is great so that's saying something imo.

    I'll respond to the initial question later.
     
    Strong Bad likes this.

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