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Important Carefully Ask EG.PPMD about the Tiara Guy

Discussion in 'Marth' started by Cactuar, Oct 4, 2007.

  1. AustinRC

    AustinRC
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    done and done PBNJ
     
  2. AceDudeyeah

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    Has a Marth skype group been formed already?
     
  3. Dr Peepee

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    Effff backspace

    Anyway, teching and SDI and edgecanceling negate lots of Falco combos. People just haven't mastered that yet.

    Comboing with Marth involving mastering mixups and executing those mixups and approaches systematically. Most people don't break the game down that hard.

    I understand you and most people want to see it to believe it, but if I have way more experience with Falco then why would I use a character I'm more uncomfortable with? I'm strongly considering the FD CP vs Armada but eh. I'm hoping to MM lots of people with Marth so look for that in the meantime.

    ye

    M2K grabbed or hit a CPU of varying levels and %s and watched what they did. That's what I wanna do. It's a great strategy that has led me to come up with combo ideas as Falco(on a lvl 1 FD Fox) and I'm sure it works amazingly for Marth on everyone.

    saving link with this quote

    Green Falco is because no one else played green falco in 09(zhu was blue then) and I thought he was cool, and blue Marth because of Azen and M2K was black and blue is a calming color which I feel like I personally need for my style of Marth play.

    LMAO at color thing.

    Uair into Utilt when they're on the platform! Waveland regrab!

    Hitting a spacie onto a top platform just SH no FF just before they land. You can DJ FF Uair and tipper them no matter what and you'll burn their DJ or reset them afterward.

    ye

    Oh you can hit them earlier in the animation and be fine? Neeeaaaatttt



    this is how you do it right here, but that Falco shoulda edgecanceled

    yeah, but it's more of a mixup imo. bair combos well and surprisingly doesn't have very bad lag.

    but, marth can SH Bair into DJ shenanigans. that's cool.

    She has 5 jumps, so the more she jumps the worse her position gets and the more likely she is to actually do something. the big thing at controlling her is keep yourself moving and count jumps. puff likes slowing you down since she's so slow. keep moving. keep her from crossing you up in the air if possible so she can't weave too much.

    Pigeonholing yourself into one style of play is bad. Take risks sometimes especially if they lead to kills, but otherwise play kinda like what you're saying too. Doesn't have to be a one or the other type of thing. =)
     
  4. Beat!

    Beat!
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    Hey, Mahie, invite me to the Skype group if you guys make one.
     
  5. Construct

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    Can I get in on this Skype thing? Name is constructssbm

    Back on the subject of pivoting, how do you go about doing it with the c-stick? It seems much harder from the hour or so of experimenting I did with the two. With the A-button it isn't actually as hard as I thought... I still dash attack maybe 1/3-1/2 the time, but hey, with some practice this should be pretty consistent.

    What % can Fox/Falco double jump out of u-throw chaingrab? Just throwing them up and catching them.
     
  6. AceDudeyeah

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    Add me: acekelvinong
     
  7. Umbreon

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    you're going to use bair to wall someone out, and then when it finally works, you want to use that to lead into gimmicks? what are you, new?

    edit:

    add me to the skype chat:

    _munkiesROKmySoks_
     
  8. PB&J

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    if any of you guys are going to apex i would love to marth ditto you. I dont do money matches but i will play serious.
     
  9. AustinRC

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    Where did you find that out PP?! Hahaha

    :phone:
     
  10. Mahie

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    Whoever wants to get in the group just add me on skype (m.tsouria) and I'll invite you, seems like I can't invite people not in my contacts.
     
  11. AustinRC

    AustinRC
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    Marth boards actually getting something done? HOLY ****!
     
  12. Elyssa Xey Hexen

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    It won't last. But hopefully being pessimistic in persona while optimistic in spirit will prove that statement wrong.
     
  13. Dr Peepee

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    what if they stay away from the bair? the DJ could lead to a platform waveland or it could lead to more walling. not a staple tactic by any means, but a very interesting one with niche uses.
     
    whatwhatwhatwhatwhat likes this.
  14. AustinRC

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    Xeylode - I have a feeling they are going to start discussing something bad again. But between double fairing at the ledge, pivot utilt and letting peach pull turnips I'm not sure which will come first. I'm taking bets on double fair from ledge LOL!
     
  15. knightpraetor

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    it's ok if the bair is at a percent where it will send them offstage, but otherwise it's pretty bad.

    I wasted 3 hrs designing combos this morning with peach. I find that with practice and experience you can visualize whether something will work or not and visualize options you cannot force the computer to do. Then you can go practice them with real people later. I even knew whether weak bair would link even though i can't freaking use the Cstick in training mode. You just recognize the spacing and the strength of the hit if you practice long enough
     
  16. unknown522

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    Damnit. combos that I did in the past week that I wish were recorded with marth:

    Vs falcon on DL64: u-throw -> u-air -> double reverse b-air -> d-air (the first b-air sent him on the stage, the second one sent him almost off, but he DI'd away on the d-air).

    Same falcon on DL64 again: (at 20-something%) d-air -> u-throw (he landed on right platform) -> 6x u-air (I got on the top platform cuz he DI'd to the middle, then DI to the right) -> SH reverse b-air -> tipper (I landed on the right platform)

    Vs falco on DL64: u-throw -> u-air (off the left platform, DI to the right) -> reverse f-air (sent him left) -> falling tipped u-air (facing backwards) -> d-air.

    There were more, but kinda jank or they jumped into something after I failed a combo.

    :phone:
     
  17. Umbreon

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    if they stay away, you silently thank them to yourself because bair is pretty easy to exploit lol

    however i like the transition into stage mobility.

    why aren't you making fun of my skype name
     
  18. Dr Peepee

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    last time anything skype-related between us happened I was bird-feet-lol'd into oblivion
     
  19. Strong Bad

    Strong Bad
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    what's wrong with that?
     
  20. Dr Peepee

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    booo hisssssss
     
  21. Umbreon

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    [01:00] mycatgoesmow: you just want to do that thing
    [01:00] Kevin: yeah probably
    [01:00] Kevin: which thing?
    [01:00] mycatgoesmow: that marth dair thing
    [01:00] mycatgoesmow: and anything that leads into it
    [01:00] Kevin: i always
    [01:01] Kevin: want to marth dair
    [01:01] Kevin: it feels so good
    [01:01] mycatgoesmow: you just play chars with bull**** dairs
    [01:01] Kevin: yeah i learned i had a dair problem when i fooled with zelda some a while ago
    [01:01] Kevin: i think im still recovering from that
    [01:01] mycatgoesmow: you know who has a ****ing beast dair that you should play
    [01:01] mycatgoesmow: LINK
    [01:01] Kevin: LOOOOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL
    [01:02] mycatgoesmow: it does like 50 damage
    [01:02] Kevin: lmfao
    [01:02] Kevin: im so mad
    [01:02] Kevin: why is this happening again
    [01:02] mycatgoesmow: because you have courage and destiny seeks you out
    [01:02] Kevin: LMAO YOU DONT EVEN SAY THINGS LIKE THAT
     
  22. Elyssa Xey Hexen

    Elyssa Xey Hexen
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    Should have brought up ylink dair. Spike and beast dair.
     
  23. Tarv

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    If there is any constant in the universe it is that I will be hit my link's dair every single goddamn time, without fail regardless of who I'm playing as or where I am on the stage.
     
  24. Diakonos

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    Now that I'm home, I can respond in more detail.

    Here's where I think we disagree. I don't believe that you can actually successfully out-position them indefinitely. Marth is great when they're above, but I haven't seen it become an auto-combo to death, which is what you're implying ("they WILL die"). Each individual move might be 80% likely to succeed (rather generous, imo), but then you're relying on consecutive hits of 80% each; .80^x where x = number of hits needed before kill. If that Falco, let's say, happens to hit you with something like a dair, you're going to get *****, as we all agree. And Falco will usually convert into something much more hurtful than Marth's weak swats. So, if I can do a move at midpercentages that has a 60-75% (for example) chance of killing, I will do it, because the other option is not guaranteed.

    And yeah, I'm of the "marth sucks at killing when they're at high percent" camp.

    I'm with Umbreon and PP on this. Marth's grab on the edge just isn't as good as it used to be, thanks to great DI and edgecanceling. Fthrowing Silent Wolf near the edge, for example, feels dangerous to me because he almost always finds a way to either get out or else to punish me. Maybe I'm doing it wrong, though, and you can teach me what I'm supposed to be doing.
    This was very useful, thanks for putting it that way.
    Again, maybe I'm doing it wrong, but I haven't seen a Marth do it "guaranteedly". (I'm allowed to make up words; I'm an immigrant.) Do you have any vids of Marths doing it this consistently?

    Your prose could be less irritating.

    Anyway, I'm still waiting to hear how Marth is "completely capable" of holding stage position indefinitely without error. I keep hearing arguments based on near 1.00 probability, when I'm thinking of 0.80^x, as discussed above.

    And yes, I play Fox when I don't feel like putting in the work with Marth. Both work well for me -- yourself?

    This is a very good insight.
    This is good too, except your font colour is rather grating.
    Could you please explain how this CC thing works? And I read something earlier about SH before CCing... does that actually do something?

    Thanks for your response. Do you mean that as soon as you know they're going to be getting onto the platform, you should start SH for the uair? What if they get-up attack? For the top platform trick, do you have a video that shows this? And does this avoid get-up attack, too?

    I think we agree about the play-style thing.

    Thanks everyone for a productive day on the Marth forums!
     
  25. Dr Peepee

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    Uhhh I think I just falling Uair(from initial SH after throw) them if they miss their tech lol. You just have to kinda FF it quickly so you can stay safe and Uair just in case they spam getup attack or something. Maybe there's a situation where you're more concerned about getup attack though that I'm not understanding?

    And I don't have a video outside of just M2K putting any spacie on a platform on like YS or FoD kinda that demonstrates this but he tends to pretty reliably do that Uair stuff to spacies. I mean I do it fairly well myself but that's not online <.<

    This SH vs DJ Uair trick is more based on reaction than prediction it feels to me, so you should never/almost never be threatened by getup attack. I feel like there's another concern that comes with this but I may just be paranoid since I haven't played the matchup in a couple days and I don't always get that situation when I play it(I try to avoid it honestly since it's a pretty grueling one even if I do believe the hits are fairly guaranteed in it.)
     
  26. Meneks

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    I'm starting to understand Marth now.

    I have to play him like hes all i got
     
  27. Umbreon

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    My prose is keen and intentional.

    If marth was capable of fully holding stage position, he'd be completely busted and we wouldn't be talking about it. The margin or error is when your opponent fights back. Given that your opponent will fight back and that the character has limited kill options, why would anyone advocate any action other than stage control?

    If fox is going well for you when marth is "work", you can probably separate the two and find a discrepancy in your marth style. I would not advocate any player to focus on more than one character for tournament purposes.
     
  28. KevinM

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    Doin Me so Hard I Got Pregnant

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    Oh my god that sig, I' m dying.
     
  29. Strong Bad

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    I hate Dr. Peepee
     
  30. knightpraetor

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    i think he means sh under the platform and just reactively rising upair, if you were already on the side platform it's pretty easy to do. I don't know how you would get hit by get up attack while under the platform. maybe i misunderstood

    i have no idea how any fox could possibly be reversing the situation except with instant airdodge, which some marths mix in run off rising nair to catch and kill the fox with that. If you showed me a video I am sure i could tell you what you're doing wrong, but if you had a video you yourself would probably realize what you were doing wrong.
     
  31. Mahie

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    If you're using a character with a low crouch relatively to your standing height, e.g. Marth or Sheik, then any move that's right above your head when you crouch would have hit you , were you standing.

    That's how Crouch PS operates. If you wait for the move to graze your head, then press shield, you will never ever miss the powershield, it's automatic, because Marth will go back to standing, and then the move will already be 'inside' you = free PS.

    Example : http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=MgV3_uUgxh0#t=805s

    Samus will never get a missile lower than crouch height on FD, so it's really easy to abuse it against her.

    The SH then Crouch thing was to control the Seeking missile's trajectory, so as to make it hit from above, instead of from the front, allowing you to then PS it.

    Any Falco that doesn't pay attention to laser height makes it free to PS, too. If the laser goes above your head, you can just PS, wavedash out of that, dash dance, etc. Above = Free PS, always.

    Goes for Peach, as you'd imagine, most of them go for Float --> Turnip, and you'll just PS it right back at them. Just WD underneath the turnip then PS.

    Example : http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=dLT97ivKo_4#t=304s

    Peach is tricky though. That worked against any Peach ever but Armada ***** me hard still.


    Works against physical attacks by the way, like Falco's dair approach, Falcon attempting a Knee, etc.
     
    Ladder and Uma like this.
  32. Diakonos

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    Okay, maybe I'm being paranoid. I think you mean to jump in such a way that I'm hovering under the platform if they miss their tech, staying low enough that the get-up attack won't hit. I'm pretty sure there's a way around this, but I'll just have to keep an eye out for it so I can explain what I mean.
    Thanks for your response. I think we agree that it's not "guaranteed", so perhaps that word was being used too liberally. There is a margin of error, and imho it's not negligible. The chance of successfully hitting all those fairs/uairs in a row without interruption is not as high as we'd like, I think, and for this reason it's not fair to say that Marth can indefinitely keep position. Seeing as how the risk-reward factor is not so lopsided, the better option may in fact be to take that .70 chance over a .80^x chance: if you do kill, then that stock is won for you, whereas if you opt for "indefinite positioning", you are still vulnerable and are more likely to get to a point where they're at percentages in which it's difficult to kill them. Unfortunately, in Marth's important matchups, he is more likely to get combo'd into death at higher percentages than he is to do that himself. For example, Fox has uthrow uair, Falco has laser/shine ->attack ->edgeguard, Sheik has throw->fair, Falcon has move->knee, etc.

    I don't quite see how the fact that "your opponent will fight back and that the character has limited kill options" fits in with all this. Aren't these things always the case? Of course stage control is important, but stage control for stage control's sake seems silly to me; I want stage control so I can kill my opponent, and if I'm presented with a good opportunity to do so, I'll do it. Spacing indefinitely only subjects me to further opportunities for them to reverse and convert, or for me to get them into a difficult-to-kill percentage.

    Well, if I forward throw and he edgecancels it, a great Fox isn't in an absolutely terrible position since I'd be quite close to the edge. He could ledgedash on with invincibility and work me woe. He could come up with a crafty attack, forcing me to back up and give up space. Otto uses shine to stall and space his moves perfectly. Sometimes he will walljump and airdodge, as you mention. He could edgecancel the throw and jump to come down with an attack. I'm not even sure these are all the options, but hopefully I'm not the only one in this position?

    Ah, that's a great explanation. I know people said that crouching helps PS, but I was pretty good at PS without crouch so I never bothered to investigate. Thanks!
    PS: that match was filthy. (pun intended)
     
  33. Dr Peepee

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    <3

    Throw closer to the edge or just pummel more to see if you can trip up their DI. Sometimes you just gotta Uthrow and get more damage instead. Sometimes them getting the edge is alright if you just WD back afterward so you're still sort of controlling the situation. There's a lot of very situational/%-based stuff related to throwing spacies offstage.
     
  34. Niko45

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    PP, would you actually prefer to have someone above you or pinned to the edge/getting off the edge in terms of stage control? Probably too general of a question considering matchups and whatever but...your thoughts?
     
  35. Dr Peepee

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    (Preferably pinned to the) edge. Always edge.

    Unless I got a grab then it depends because I can force DJs/floats/whatever well.
     
  36. knightpraetor

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    boxed out with no space is better than having them above you except against peach and jiggs, and i think having fox/falco on the ledge is not that great, i would rather have them pinned next to the ledge than on the ledge.

    but against bad chars having them on the ledge is pretty good

    you should never fthrow/dthrow if it can be edgecanceled vs spacies
     
  37. Bones0

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    What about bthrowing spacies near/off the ledge? It's a lot harder to get the slide-off from bthrow.
     
  38. Niko45

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    bthrow is honestly super good in some spots for those non combo or pseudo combo options umbreon likes. Really common for a FFer to miss a platform tech off of bthrow.
     
  39. knightpraetor

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    Interesting idea at low percents...more percents marth has to keep track of uggh..but it seems good. originally marths used dthrow because it was strictly better in terms of lag, but realistically as long as you weren't planning to dtilt turn around regrab off the dhrow you aren't losing much in terms of techchase ability. I will try to playing with it sometime.

    obviously all marths are already using it at percent ranges when it puts people on platforms, but maybe it is worth experimenting with at low percents too. But honestly, for bthrow to be better, the spacey needs to be in low percent range and within range to ledgecancel the grab. Even then, I'm not sure you get more off of it than upthrowing. it is probably better against falco than fox, since fox is pretty easy to trap once you have him above you, and falco has speed issues and cannot attack you after teching in place as easily as fox.
     
  40. Niko45

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    I think it's specifically good on Falcon who is so heavy that it's not possible to really do true combos off throws anyway (without terribad di) so bthrow can set up the platform game automatically at some percents where an up throw would give him a jump out.

    It's also not that hard to combo bthrow fsmash on spacies during how-the-****-can-I-kill-this-guy %. M2k uses that **** a lot.

    Also in terms of floaties at super high % where an up throw sends them so high that you kinda don't have as much control as you'd like a bthrow is nice.
     

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