Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[AustinRC]

Sometimes fthrow near the edge is okay against floaties, you can wavedash into the ledge and fsmash which is cool. A little gimmicky but yeah. Overall I'd say uthrow is probably better, I mean if you can get them off the edge and without a jump then yeah that's cool too though.

 

[Mahone]

ya ofc at the very edge fthrow is gonna be good, i just dont get why people do fthrows at 0 on peach hoping to like get a tipper that wont do ****, rather than upthrowing and then pressuring her in a hugely advantageous position where u can get 4 hit "combos" super easy.... being disjointed is so godlike

 

[Ether]

mahone is all kinds of right. One thing I preach is that a juggle is just a slow combo. Guaranteed damage yield while maintaining position.

 

[ShroudedOne]

If you always end your combo with them being offstage, they have to recover. You're in a stronger position than they are, just by the nature of the game (stage control being super important and the closer you are to the blastzones, the closer you are to losing a stock).

Perhaps Umbreon is saying that, sometimes, by ending wth them being offstage, you release the advantage you could've garnered through damage or juggle potential by giving them an escape? For example, throwing Falco offstage puts you at an advantage, but he still has a decent amount of options in that position that can set up for reversals that wouldn't have happened had you just kept him above you...

That's probably completely off, but I'll post it anyways.

EDIT: If the Peach knows how to DI, fthrow literally does NOTHING to her. If she doesn't, take your fthrow CGs from 0 and your fthrow > tippers, lol.

 

[Deleted member]

let's be real, if you forward throw older/worse players, you establish position and can work that into a kill. against the better and faster players, you're coin-flipping them instead. you set them up to come back with some combination of edge canceling by DIing into the edge on the throw, or they can second jump and air dodge into you looking for a shine, or stall and try to sweetspot the edge with a second jump, or they could come up with an attack, all that you can't ever reasonably react to or cover multiple options. sometimes you'll get them sure, but sometimes they'll make it back and combo you for 60%+. strategically, from the grab you have an opponent where you can choose how you set up your advantage, where you can fish for the gimp with forward throw, try to set up a better position in the middle for a chaingrab or something with a downthrow tech chase, or just upthrow and set up a combo/juggle. if all of these options were equal, you'd have to play to the player or just try to get lucky. but they are not equal.

why would you forfeit your advantage for a coin flip? so you can gimmick them out? great, that will work against players equal or worse than you. these are not the players that this character is currently struggling with. no on in this thread is going to kill a top 5 falco with a forward throw at the edge and you all know it, so why would anyone advocate that strategy?

if anything the forward throw makes more sense on peach because her movement is **** and even then mahone is right and you should probably upthrow instead in the hopes that the juggle will make her lose her 2nd jump.

edit @ shrouded: a throw only does "nothing" if you're looking for a combo. marth's throws are all amazing for non-combo reasons, the combo is just a bonus really. marth has ******** *** range and disjointed hitboxes that cover huge sweeping portions of the stage. marth's throws should be used to put your opponent to where they can't do anything about those swings. until they die.

 

[Bones0]

condescending and wrong.

it's like you're gregory house but only for 10-15 minutes into the episode.

"tests take time, treatment's quicker" only works when you're correct.

Sorry if you feel my post was condescending, but I didn't know how else to reply seeing as how I never implied every combo must end off stage. I just think throwing spacies off stage is much more likely to get you that 50-50 survival or death situation that KP was talking about then trying to combo from a uthrow that will be DIed towards the center of the stage and has a million different escape options (slide offs, techs, missed techs to ASDI down techs on the followup, or even standard neutral DI when Marth jumps up and fairs). If someone can make the combo across the center of the stage work, great. I even threw out some brainstorming ideas that might potentially make the situation work. It's not like I scoff at every Marth I see uthrow by the ledge. I personally just prefer throwing them off. Marth has about a 50-50 read on most of Falco's options. He can edgeguard with jab/dtilt and get a nice gimp, or he can counter/move back to catch the DJ dair/DJ airdodge on options. At least from a Falco's perspective, he doesn't have really any in between options. The few he does have are pretty gimmicky, like trying to shine stall, wall jump, or up-B and hope Marth can't react fast enough.

I can try to explain it another way, but posting stuff like "none of that made sense" or straight up ad hominem doesn't help anyone.

I also don't know what episodes of House you watch because he is definitely wrong like 10 times before he finally gets the right diagnosis. Maybe my current ideas are too baller to actually be applied effectively, but I'll be damned if I don't get to the right answer faster than the noobs jerking off to the same uthrow uair chain they've been attempting for 10 years.

 

[ShroudedOne]

edit @ shrouded: a throw only does "nothing" if you're looking for a combo. marth's throws are all amazing for non-combo reasons, the combo is just a bonus really. marth has ******** *** range and disjointed hitboxes that cover huge sweeping portions of the stage. marth's throws should be used to put your opponent to where they can't do anything about those swings. until they die.

Alright, I lied/was wrong. His fthrow is fairly good positioning-wise vs her sometimes (namely at the edge because her DJ is beyond terrible in that position).

There are interesting, effective things that PP does with fthrow on Peach, too. But I think the uthrow nets a more direct advantage vs her most of the time.

 

[Ether]

If you had to choose between an upthrow for damage and throwing them off for a potential kill, I think it would all come down to whether the opponent could easily grab the ledge after being thrown using his second jump. If yes, upthrow instead. If no, throw off stage.

 

[Deleted member]

a "how to play" video is definitely textbook condescending, but if you were going for something else let's ignore that.

cool, we're discussing marth and what X action he should do in a given situation. let's break it down. marth vs <character> on <stage> is a closed, predictable system, so we should be able to experiment with it and definitely decide that some action is better than another. rather than saying "this is good, but so is this other thing", i want you to pretend that there are only 2 kinds of plays: there is the optimal play, and the mistake. any play that is not the optimal play is a mistake, even if it's almost as good, or even if you get lucky with it and it works out for you.

KP's idea is correct because forcing characters into questionable positions and then exploiting them for it is what this game is all about. not marth, the entire game. how you choose to make that exploitation is up to you, but ideally your best bet is to just keep them in a bad position indefinitely because we've already established that it's the best thing you can do unless you plan to outright kill them. unfortunately marth has some noticeable holes with his edge game, so we can quickly conclude that killing them outright is not reliable and that we should resort to keeping the opponent in a bad position. therefore, the optimal play is to do whatever keeps the opponent in a bad position. since the gimmick kill is unreliable and gives your opponent a margin or error to play around, it is the worse play (and a mistake). never give your opponents a chance to outplay you, or they often will.

if you want to break down a permutation of options for punishment into a flow chart, that's perfectly acceptable and the basis for a lot of combos and chaingrabs and juggles and that's all fine. but pretty please, keep a non-combo option in the flow chart at all times. as it's already been pointed out, positioning is much more important for this character than damage is, so we should play to that.

 

[Ether]

geez I would pay good money to be a student in Umbreon's dojo.

 

[Deleted member]

geez I would pay good money to be a student in Umbreon's dojo.

aka my car.

hitch a ride with kevin and his girlie on the way up to DC, i have a 4th spot in my car for the ride to apex.

edit: maybe you should clear it with him too lol

 

[Ether]

I'm not going to Apex. Surprise bills stacked up. But wait, you're in the MD/VA area?

 

[Deleted member]

I'm not going to Apex. Surprise bills stacked up. But wait, you're in the MD/VA area?

i live with chu when i'm not at school in PA.

edit @ shrouded: i think fthrow @ the edge vs peach is interesting because she's almost forced to air dodge into marth if his coverage of her movement is good. aka this is one of the very few cases where nair becomes a really good option to catch her out of the dodge. i haven't watched enough of armada to see how he gets around this actually, but my guess before watching videos is that the marths are proactive and whiff something rather than reacting and catching her. i'm really not sure how she plays around it, but i'm really not that knowledgeable on peach in general. do you have any ideas? it might make a good addition to this topic.

 

[Ether]

Well shucks man, that's awesome.

 

[Niko45]

ROFFFFFFFFFFFFFLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL


#irony

LOL

#mahowned

 

[AustinRC]

fthrow is also good vs peach if you can consistantly pivot fsmash. :D

 

[ShroudedOne]

Shhhhhhhhh

Don't tell people about that

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

marth's throws should be used to put your opponent to where they can't do anything about those swings. until they die.

This is the reasoning I have been preferring as of late and cannot really bring myself to consider tech chasing an option or really ever use Dthrow.

 

[MasterShake]

Wait.

Can you not dash attack peach after fthrow?

I do that **** to everybody, hope they don't learn to DI.

 

[AustinRC]

Only if they DI away and down I believe. At lower percent's just uthrow uair lol.

 

[Metal Reeper]

Ether is right. But M2K does it on Armada, AKA it does work on people.

 

[AustinRC]

Ether is right? WAIT WHAAAT!?!?!?!

 

[ShroudedOne]

I'm fairly certain that at the percents you could combo it, she can ASDI the dash attack down, tech, and downsmash. Armada did do this to M2K.

Not 100% on this, however, so maybe it does combo her legitimately.

 

[MasterShake]

Only if they DI away and down I believe.

Noooooooo even if they go offstage?

It's like a guaranteed 60%, dash attack is cool.

Too bad it suckssss.

 

[Metal Reeper]

Ether is right? WAIT WHAAAT!?!?!?!

Sorry, same AVI I think lol.
Get original <3

EDIT:

dash attack is cool.

Too bad it suckssss.

Dash attack doesn't suck it's just not easy to land, but if you do there is always a huge payoff.

 

[FrootLoop]

can we talk about puff?

She's the only character that I don't really get what "bad position" means. Against everyone else I can just get below them and let gravity do its stuff, but against puff it's not so clear because she's phenomenal in the air. As a result I can't get a lot of mileage out of my neutral game wins.

This isn't necessarily just with marth, but you guys are actually discussing things here.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I think fighting jigglypuff is how brawl matches go. You will not get heavy punishment out of a neutral game win. That's just how she is and there is no getting around that. Once you get your bit of damage in, you go right back to maintaining your good position which is generally center stage. There are ways I suppose to make the most off of the punishes such as with Falco you can Dair her to the ground.

The only bad position for her that I can see if when she has to land. Particularly on a platform. She sucks at moving in the quickly other than moving back and forth in the air, so once she is on a platform generally you should be able to cover her attempts to get off it.

 

[Diakonos]

I feel like sometimes it's worth going for the kill even when it means losing your positioning. You win the match when you've taken four of your opponent's lives, not when you've successfully out-positioned them for 75% of the match or get them to 150%. Since Marth is typically poor at killing at high percents, I had rather take a 60-75% chance of getting a kill than a 100% chance of keeping them in position indefinitely. No one's spacing is so good that it doesn't allow the opponent to get hits in during that time, and typically other characters can make marth pay quickly and brutally.

 

[clowsui]

I feel like sometimes it's worth going for the kill even when it means losing your positioning. You win the match when you've taken four of your opponent's lives, not when you've successfully out-positioned them for 75% of the match or get them to 150%. Since Marth is typically poor at killing at high percents, I had rather take a 60-75% chance of getting a kill than a 100% chance of keeping them in position indefinitely. No one's spacing is so good that it doesn't allow the opponent to get hits in during that time, and typically other characters can make marth pay quickly and brutally.

that's the point. don't get me wrong, i get what you're saying, but you have made a false dichotomy for yourself in this instance: successfully outpositioning the opponent with marth means that they die lol. it will take them a long *** time maybe and you're going to need to be consistent etc, but make no mistake: they WILL die.

marth is a character with enough holes in his game such that the 60-75% chance for a kill or w/e from a suboptimal decision is not good enough. because on the instance that you fail in making that risk or w/e (25-40% chance according to you), you lose a whole stock at worst or forfeit your advantage completely at best.

on the other hand, if you choose to keep positioning throughout and go for things that are highly likely to succeed (80-90% chance), the opponent dies (and rather easily at that) from making a mistake because marth's ****ing stupid. hell, even if you mess up, they are in a terrible terrible position and might as well have died in any case because marth's ****ing stupid.

if you want to break down a permutation of options for punishment into a flow chart, that's perfectly acceptable and the basis for a lot of combos and chaingrabs and juggles and that's all fine. but pretty please, keep a non-combo option in the flow chart at all times. as it's already been pointed out, positioning is much more important for this character than damage is, so we should play to that.

important to note (though kind of implicit in your posts) is that this is why uthrow is awesome because on FF'ers it acts as both the combo option and the positioning option. on floaties it acts as the position option. this is also why fthrow sucks in a lot of situations because it's neither (but it has the potential to be both if the opponent makes a bad decision) for both classes of character except in rare cases

 

[Mahone]

can we talk about puff?

She's the only character that I don't really get what "bad position" means. Against everyone else I can just get below them and let gravity do its stuff, but against puff it's not so clear because she's phenomenal in the air. As a result I can't get a lot of mileage out of my neutral game wins.

This isn't necessarily just with marth, but you guys are actually discussing things here.

you are still in a great position when you are under her, and that is still the position to be in, its just harder to capitalize... all i do as puff when im above a marth is juke them out with my movement until they fail to keep up, or, more commonly, until they swing out an fsmash or uptilt that misses and then i come down and punish the lag... you have to just get really good at moving around while looking at the way jiggs moves, you have to be 100% confident in ur tech skill because youd be surprised at how many marth players stubble in a dashdance when i weave one way and then another and i get down for free, you can watch this vid to understand more, i would recommend the whole hour but the first 30 seconds is probably good enough.

one thing i dont see a lot of marths do is waveland the platforms when chasing a high up jiggs, you wouldnt even believe how stupid good that is, just be in the center of the stage than waveland BAM fsmash, i dunno why, but no matter where the **** i am, it seems to tipper, although pp is the only marth ive seen that has been able to do this consistently without messing up and letting me down for free

don't be afraid to pressure her offstage, usually thats puff go to route to get back down cuz marths will back off and just take center stage, one unused tool here is shieldbreaker, all puffs space right outside of fair range so that they can threaten pound to reverse the situation, but if u shieldbreaker itll either hit them, or they will have to weave an uncomfortable amount and not be able to punish you

for the ledge you just want to poke her with dtilts everytime she tries to grab it, if she does finally grab it just cancel the dtilt into a wd back since she will usually reactively try to punish the "next" dtilt that doesnt come and instead will eat an fsmash/ftilt that will make her have to recover again

oh man, now that i said ftlitl i gotta talk about ftilt, that **** is mad good vs puff, in a lot of spots you wanna fsmash, think about whether ftilt is better, its a lot safer and WAYY harder to punish, but ofc you need room to use it, but if ur playing the mu right you shouldnt be that close to them anyway

i could talk more about the other 100 tricks marth could use to **** puff, but i think i answered ur question and i dont want other puffs to get mad at me lol

I feel like sometimes it's worth going for the kill even when it means losing your positioning. You win the match when you've taken four of your opponent's lives, not when you've successfully out-positioned them for 75% of the match or get them to 150%. Since Marth is typically poor at killing at high percents, I had rather take a 60-75% chance of getting a kill than a 100% chance of keeping them in position indefinitely. No one's spacing is so good that it doesn't allow the opponent to get hits in during that time, and typically other characters can make marth pay quickly and brutally.

i completely agree

the beauty of going for 50/50 kills is that if you are wrong they are still in combo percents and not in that no mans land where marth doesn't know how to finish them off


@mow: don't put top players on a pedestal, they are human and have habits just like everyone else... even if they are better at mixing it up you can get a feel for what they are trying/want to do

if thats not how you want to play the game then great, but don't tell other people its wrong


when playing, instead of thinking only in terms of consistency and stage control, try thinking about highest EV or expected value

if i was marth and i have falco on the edge twice, lets say i can upthrow both times and get a guaranteed ~70% combo into a good position (which i also have to say, upthrow combos are susceptible to ledgecanceling and other shenanigans too)

or, i can dthrow and counter, and 50% of the time i will be wrong and eat a 45% combo guaranteed from falco, but 50% of the time this is just instant death for the falco


its very reasonable to argue that the second option has a higher EV and i WOULD argue that, especially considering games are only 4 stocks

the beauty of smash is that its not even CLOSE to that simple since there are 100 more options than the ones ive listed and you have to account for so many things (how many stocks they have left, if you have the lead, how often they di in/out, etc.), but to just state that a lower variance way of playing is objectively better is very wrong...

i think you were right in the case of fthrow vs upthrow vs peach, but you have to handle these things on a case by case basis, which is why ur analogy of fthrowing peach to dthrowing spacies offstage made little sense to me

also also, i think taj did a lot of this sorta stuff to mango, so idk why you are so confident you will get destroyed if u do this against a top player


@clowsui: ur overrated marth a lot, they WONT die, have u not seen every marth ever get someone to 140% then try to kill for an hour and lose a stock eventually before they can get a ****ing tipper fair to kill the fox??? his options become so much worse at a certain percent that you really have to consider how you are adding on damage... also even if u mess up, you will get DESTROYED, maybe not if u like miss a tipper upair on peach, but if u mess up one thing on a falco on a platform, BAM fall through dair into shine into ur whole day is ruined

 

[knightpraetor]

yeah, i'm pretty sure there are percents where fthrow is better than upthrow on peach. while the pressuring peach from underneath is nice and all, there are definitely ways to get down as well. I think the bigger problem is that marth's use fthrow at percents where DI away and down is a free out for peach instead of a free dash attack. But i don't know, since I main peach now, I will probably take the time to test the DI away and down though to find when when it stops working vs fthrow.

honestly what umbreon mentioned about spacies having ways out of marth's edgeguard was way too negative..marth can cover all those options reactively except jump on airdodge shine mixed up with jump to the ledge. bigger problem is his good edgeguarding coverage often doesn't net an instant kill against fox so you have to work multiple times. Against falco it's not that bad.

edit: technically marth can cover those two at the same time as well, but then he can't have 100% coverage on the rest. Marth has really good coverage on opponent's offstage as long as they aren't too high vertically

and against fox air dodge on shine is hardly a reversal.. just make sure the shine sends you back on stage...it's definitely worth the risk.

 

[knightpraetor]

@clowsui: ur overrated marth a lot, they WONT die, have u not seen every marth ever get someone to 140% then try to kill for an hour and lose a stock eventually before they can get a ****ing tipper fair to kill the fox??? his options become so much worse at a certain percent that you really have to consider how you are adding on damage... also even if u mess up, you will get DESTROYED, maybe not if u like miss a tipper upair on peach, but if u mess up one thing on a falco on a platform, BAM fall through dair into shine into ur whole day is ruined

Yeah, what i have realized from watching PP's marth is that you really don't want to be hitting your opponent if it doesn't lead to a good chance of killing them.

He kept getting hit more in neutral than I would, yet he can't winning his matches because when he did take the time to swing it was something that could lead to killing his opponent, where I tended to swing to protect myself too often with poor placement that didn't net anything useful.

 

[FrootLoop]

Thanks I'll have to try that stuff.

I don't get the point of 50/50s where you get fully punished for being wrong. You have the same odds for success as you did in neutral before you got the grab, so its equivalent to giving up that advantage. Even if the dice is slightly weighted in your favor, a grab should be worth more than that.

The good part about juggling people above you is that you can just do it until they die. You don't have to guess to hit them again, and the only difference damage makes is how long you wait until they come back down. It doesn't matter how long it takes if it's guaranteed. Whenever I have problems killing I usually notice that I'm trying to kill them from neutral, and if you setup your kill its no different than them being at a lower %.

 

[Diakonos]

The thing is that it's not perfectly guaranteed. Maybe in some match ups at some percents. But I was speaking against a completely "safe" play style where the better positioning is always chosen over the kill opportunity.

I don't believe that you can keep them "in position" forever, or have it necessarily lead to a kill. I haven't seen a Marth that good, or opponents that predictable. There is a hole somewhere, albeit a small one, and the longer you keep trying to outposition them, the better chances that they'll hit it. And then Marth gets owned and you lost your opportunity. So, in general, yes, I will try to keep them in position, but if I see a pretty good chance to kill, I'll take the risk. Swatting them with fairs and uairs until 175 just doesn't cut it for me.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Umbreon was right. There is this split between how Marth should be playing at the moment. One side agrees Marth should find ways to combo into a killer and avoid high percents. Then, I see another side that says it doesn't matter if high percents are reached because you can eventually get a KO off a near constant juggle since what can the other character do against mart in a juggle?

if i was marth and i have falco on the edge twice, lets say i can upthrow both times and get a guaranteed ~70% combo into a good position (which i also have to say, upthrow combos are susceptible to ledgecanceling and other shenanigans too)

or, i can dthrow and counter, and 50% of the time i will be wrong and eat a 45% combo guaranteed from falco, but 50% of the time this is just instant death for the falco

@Mahone: What? This isn't remotely a 50/50 sort of situation. The only time that would work is if the Falco decides to 2nd jump -> aerial immediately.

 

[Mahone]

ya i know, i was just oversimplifying to get my point across

 

[Deleted member]

I'll go in order

i completely agree

the beauty of going for 50/50 kills is that if you are wrong they are still in combo percents and not in that no mans land where marth doesn't know how to finish them off

no, we've already established that this doesn't work. marth's ability to dial-a-combo doesn't mean that the combos are going to win you the game. most of the time, good DI on marth's aerials means that a combo kill is substantially less likely to happen.

the 50/50 kill for marth is ugly because you can simply play the patient positioning game and the kill turns into 90/10. keep in mind that marth has a garbage combo weight when you LOSE the 50/50. don't turn your matches into a coin flip.

@mow: don't put top players on a pedestal, they are human and have habits just like everyone else... even if they are better at mixing it up you can get a feel for what they are trying/want to do

I'm not putting anyone in a pedestal. the top 5 falco reference is to point out that it doesn't work.

if thats not how you want to play the game then great, but don't tell other people its wrong

it is wrong. to tell people to play the game how they want to is misleading and encourages dangerous justifications on bad play. people who want to win will figure things out that work reliably.

if i was marth and i have falco on the edge twice, lets say i can upthrow both times and get a guaranteed ~70% combo into a good position (which i also have to say, upthrow combos are susceptible to ledgecanceling and other shenanigans too)

or, i can dthrow and counter, and 50% of the time i will be wrong and eat a 45% combo guaranteed from falco, but 50% of the time this is just instant death for the falco

its very reasonable to argue that the second option has a higher EV and i WOULD argue that, especially considering games are only 4 stocks

so you're saying that you're willing to forego absolute advantage for the coin flip? you're willing to undertake a strict tactical disadvantage when you have a better option readily available? why does the stock number even matter? this would be horrible advice regardless if the match had 1 stock or 20.

the beauty of smash is that its not even CLOSE to that simple since there are 100 more options than the ones ive listed and you have to account for so many things (how many stocks they have left, if you have the lead, how often they di in/out, etc.), but to just state that a lower variance way of playing is objectively better is very wrong...

i think you were right in the case of fthrow vs upthrow vs peach, but you have to handle these things on a case by case basis, which is why ur analogy of fthrowing peach to dthrowing spacies offstage made little sense to me

when you have some infinite permutation of really refined options, it's much better to take a step back and simplify the interactions to look for patterns. once you have those patterns, you can go more in-depth because you know what you're looking for. this lets you structure your learning and take mental shortcuts to resolving a problem on the fly. wonder human brain, etc.

my general statement is that having the opponent off of the stage with marth does not necessarily mean that you have positional advantage because of the holes to his edge game. at this point, throwing a fox and a peach off of the stage means different things, as one character can readily exploit those holes while the other cannot, at least not as easily. i would say that it's close to handling it in a case by case basis, although i'm not sure if that's entirely accurate.

i'm not suggesting that lower variance play is strictly better. however while we're on the matter, "always picking your best option" is objectively better. to do otherwise is to forfeit win % left and right for no reason.

also also, i think taj did a lot of this sorta stuff to mango, so idk why you are so confident you will get destroyed if u do this against a top player

mango jumps into it more readily than other players do. kevin sacked him much worse for it than taj ever did in the past couple months. i think that's more of a corner case where you play to the player. it's debatable though and it might be better if kevin speaks for himself.

@clowsui: ur overrated marth a lot, they WONT die, have u not seen every marth ever get someone to 140% then try to kill for an hour and lose a stock eventually before they can get a ****ing tipper fair to kill the fox??? his options become so much worse at a certain percent that you really have to consider how you are adding on damage... also even if u mess up, you will get DESTROYED, maybe not if u like miss a tipper upair on peach, but if u mess up one thing on a falco on a platform, BAM fall through dair into shine into ur whole day is ruined

this is correct actually, but that's because the marth made the mistake of "trying to kill" rather than just holding stage position. i guarantee that if you just hold stage position indefinitely, which marth is completely capable of, your opponent will die eventually with very minimal risk.

honestly what umbreon mentioned about spacies having ways out of marth's edgeguard was way too negative..marth can cover all those options reactively except jump on airdodge shine mixed up with jump to the ledge. bigger problem is his good edgeguarding coverage often doesn't net an instant kill against fox so you have to work multiple times. Against falco it's not that bad.

so first you refute me, but then reinforce my point that marth can't cover all of the options reactively like I said? go back to the word "except" in this paragraph- the ability for the opponent to have an option at all means that the strategy is not guaranteed, and thus prone to failure. i'm telling you that you don't have to deal with that risk if you simply choose something else.

Swatting them with fairs and uairs until 175 just doesn't cut it for me.

Can I recommend Fox?

 

[knightpraetor]

he was just making an extreme example where it can be worth it to take the higher variance move. obviously falco has more options, so counter actually stinks off of dthrow.

And there is a huge split between how marth plays. Amusingly, I used to subscribe to the camp of play perfectly safe and maintain position as that is how i always viewed m2k as playing, but then when i went to NC a couple months back and was playing PP's marth I realized he doesn't really play like that. He takes risks, but they are risks that have much better payoffs where i was trying to maintain some perfect godlike spacing for a dozen hits. Meanwhile PP can afford to make mistakes because he isn't playing for position for hours and when he does take a risk it leads to a kill.

Funny that PP plays like this despite getting advice from umbreon who says to just worry about position and maintain it. However, i think in most situations I agree with umbreon that marths don't play for position enough. But there are definitely times to just take the risk. The problem is marths often go for super high variance options when they have a cleaner option if they just move to a solid position where often the Expected return is higher. But instead they have this conception that they must take the mixup immediately when they can wait for a better one

 

[Mahone]

no, we've already established that this doesn't work. marth's ability to dial-a-combo doesn't mean that the combos are going to win you the game. most of the time, good DI on marth's aerials means that a combo kill is substantially less likely to happen.

its still much more likely than if they're at 150% and happens often enough that it should be considered

the 50/50 kill for marth is ugly because you can simply play the patient positioning game and the kill turns into 90/10. keep in mind that marth has a garbage combo weight when you LOSE the 50/50. don't turn your matches into a coin flip.

ya, but a lot of times he doesn't get put in a complete reversal for messing up, falco dairing on is more of an extreme example of him getting solidly punished

i don't agree with the fact that he can play a patient positioning game and get a 90/10 kill so i cant comment further

I'm not putting anyone in a pedestal. the top 5 falco reference is to point out that it doesn't work.

and later u admit that it worked very well vs 1 of the 2 best falcos in the world

it is wrong. to tell people to play the game how they want to is misleading and encourages dangerous justifications on bad play. people who want to win will figure things out that work reliably.

i just explained how it can be greater ev to take that risk

so you're saying that you're willing to forego absolute advantage for the coin flip? you're willing to undertake a strict tactical disadvantage when you have a better option readily available? why does the stock number even matter? this would be horrible advice regardless if the match had 1 stock or 20.

yes, saying its an absolute advantage isn't really saying much because you also have to consider how great that advantage is... how great a disadvantage is a strict tactical disadvantage? why is that option so obviously better?

ya im not sure why i thought stock number mattered, ur right about that

when you have some infinite permutation of really refined options, it's much better to take a step back and simplify the interactions to look for patterns. once you have those patterns, you can go more in-depth because you know what you're looking for. this lets you structure your learning and take mental shortcuts to resolving a problem on the fly. wonder human brain, etc.

my general statement is that having the opponent off of the stage with marth does not necessarily mean that you have positional advantage because of the holes to his edge game. at this point, throwing a fox and a peach off of the stage means different things, as one character can readily exploit those holes while the other cannot, at least not as easily. i would say that it's close to handling it in a case by case basis, although i'm not sure if that's entirely accurate.

having your opponent offstage IS a positional advantage, just because he has holes in his edge game doesn't change this fact

i'm not suggesting that lower variance play is strictly better. however while we're on the matter, "always picking your best option" is objectively better. to do otherwise is to forfeit win % left and right for no reason.

uhh, ok, "always picking your best option" is objectively better, i don't think anyone will disagree with that, again you are just stating your opinion as fact, u still haven't explained what is so bad about going for coinflips where u can kill them, vs getting a MUCH weaker punish that is guaranteed, it's only worse to you because you personally don't like variance

mango jumps into it more readily than other players do. kevin sacked him much worse for it than taj ever did in the past couple months. i think that's more of a corner case where you play to the player. it's debatable though and it might be better if kevin speaks for himself.

well, we can wait for that i guess

this is correct actually, but that's because the marth made the mistake of "trying to kill" rather than just holding stage position. i guarantee that if you just hold stage position indefinitely, which marth is completely capable of, your opponent will die eventually with very minimal risk.

hes capable of it in theory bros, but in real life, this is near impossible to do, i hope you enjoy losing for 100 years to people who are realists until u finally reach that perfection and no one is playing melee anymore

so first you refute me, but then reinforce my point that marth can't cover all of the options reactively like I said? go back to the word "except" in this paragraph- the ability for the opponent to have an option at all means that the strategy is not guaranteed, and thus prone to failure. i'm telling you that you don't have to deal with that risk if you simply choose something else.



Can I recommend Fox?

condescending and wrong

answers in "DeepSkyBlue"

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

^Deepskyblue, good pick.

Can anyone give me and example of a true 50/50 situation? As far as I keep seeing this being brought up, rarely am I getting examples of such a thing happening. There are always way more things to consider and the whole idea of 50/50 is seeming fictitious.