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Captain Falcon MU?

Rajikaru

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 7, 2014
Messages
249
I hate playing against Captain Falcons. I don't know what to do with them. I don't feel like I know how to punish their god damn aerial game. What's the best course of action against the usual Falcon player?
 

Dandizzle

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 20, 2013
Messages
269
Location
Long Island, NY
He can pressure you tons and has a really good item game if actually done, but his recovery is bad if you don't get spiked lol. I don't really find it fun either.
 

DrinkingFood

Smash Hero
Joined
May 5, 2012
Messages
5,600
Location
Beaumont, TX
You can't really catch him, so don't try. Take him to the smallest possible stage and try to take up space with Nair, fair, gyro, and laser. You can CC Nair, and if you're already crouching you can CC any aerial at 0 except dair. So stayin crouched when you aren't spacing moves or punishing is helpful. Dsmash also covers a lot of space which is important. You need to suffocate him. If you can get your hands on him he's easy to CG and tech chase and gimp, so hopefully you won't have to win neutral too many times to secure a stock.
Put a gyro on a platform, and space attacks behind it+mix-up into and instaAGT. You can also rush him with boosts if you have a gyro in hand and then use the gyro to extend your punishment if you hit him or safely gtfo if you miss.If I remember when I get home, I'll link a video of me handling one our top player's falcons.
 
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Sneez

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 11, 2014
Messages
105
ya i think falcon might be rob's worst matchup, its hard. every time you put out the top you kinda risk getting kneed in the face, but i think it's really important to have the top out against him so still try to get it out.
 

Dandizzle

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 20, 2013
Messages
269
Location
Long Island, NY
It's not the worst but that's just opinion, I remember I was playing a falcon in tournament and I SD'd last game of 3 and then afterwards the guy has the nerve to talk about how its 6-4 R.O.B's favor like really brah? Also since we have a terrible OOS game some weird stuff might be safe, especially on crossup unless you roll or do something weird like Up-B OOS.
 
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(1UP)

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 12, 2009
Messages
104
Location
Columbus, OH
i don't play this matchup with ROB anymore, i've never taken a single game off of a falcon in tournament with him. my other ROB buddy, umbra, here in columbus has much better success with it, and the things i notice is that he never drops edgeguards, and doesn't concern himself with gyro too much it seems.

gyro is just so central to my playstyle that i have an extremely hard time keeping my head in the game every time i eat 50% and a knee just trying to get one out
 
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Dandizzle

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 20, 2013
Messages
269
Location
Long Island, NY
Everyone loves to hate this character because you ask any Falcon they'll say they will lose and reddit will say even as they do with anything. At least we aint Ike tho. I am actually surprised everyone kinda agrees that it's ****ty tho.
 

Rajikaru

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 7, 2014
Messages
249
Everyone loves to hate this character because you ask any Falcon they'll say they will lose and reddit will say even as they do with anything. At least we aint Ike tho. I am actually surprised everyone kinda agrees that it's ****ty tho.
I'd rather Ike not bring into this, especially with the whole Mew2King-Ike situation recently popping up.

While I'm at it, should I make a ROB MU thread? It'd be nice to have references on at least how one should play, since ROB has different playstyles that he's good at and a lot of characters can give him problems (I've had problems with Marth beating me because of superior range recently).
 

Dandizzle

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 20, 2013
Messages
269
Location
Long Island, NY
We have a rob MU thread but no one posts lol. If people think I wouldn't update it they are wrong I just have nothing to update.
 

D e l t a

That one guy who does the thing with a camera.
Joined
Oct 5, 2013
Messages
1,038
Location
Michigan
Aside from all the other stuff posted here, ROB has a guaranteed Dthrow chain grab up to 40-50%, at which point he gets free followups on Dthrow, Uthrow, or sets up an edge guard with Forward/Back throw. The MU is super booty for Falcon and unless they're on a big stage like Dreamland, ROB should always win this MU. With a heavier weight, knees and Uairs don't kill until 85% at the very earliest with semi-decent DI at the worst. ROB also has an easier time recovering with boosts getting him on stage very fast and he can also use Uair & Fair to thwart Falcon's attempt at knocking you back. Not to mention Bair & Dair can help mix up the timings in which ROB recovers. The gimps on Falcon can be brutal with laser, gyro, any aerial- especially WoP Fairs, and Dtilt. The matchup is probably not as bad as I describe; however, I personally feel it's something close to +3 in ROB's favor. At best, the MU is 55/45 if the Falcon avoids chain grabs and spaces / punishes ROB's slow aerials.

Best video I know of showing how ROB can avoid Falcon's movement and control space extremely well. Also demonstrates potential combos, the chain grab on Falcon, and ways of setting up ledge guards & gimps.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXog3UWmL38
 
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Dandizzle

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 20, 2013
Messages
269
Location
Long Island, NY
If you are getting grabbed as Falcon you aren't doing it right, and if chaingrabs made someone win a match up (platforms) Ganon would be like the best character and spacies would be trash, but that's besides the point. That match Drinking Food just outplayed that guy, Falcon never really applied the nair/jab pressure that he could of easily got and he always seemed to not sweet spot his recovery. If you look at the match up as in what R.O.B can do to punish Falcon then it's easy to say he wins, but Falcon can punish R.O.B just as hard while its easier to get in there with the captain. And when you say Falcon doesn't kill until around 85% that's a really early kill for a fat character with a good recovery like R.O.B to get killed at, and considering he can combo into those finishing blows I don't see how you can say Falcon loses, let alone +3 because that would mean R.O.B would basically be a hard counter to Falcon and I think Falcon's rate characters like Sheik lower than that for crying out loud.
 
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D e l t a

That one guy who does the thing with a camera.
Joined
Oct 5, 2013
Messages
1,038
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Michigan
If you are getting grabbed as Falcon you aren't doing it right, and if chaingrabs made someone win a match up (platforms) Ganon would be like the best character and spacies would be trash, but that's besides the point. That match Drinking Food just outplayed that guy, Falcon never really applied the nair/jab pressure that he could of easily got and he always seemed to not sweet spot his recovery. If you look at the match up as in what R.O.B can do to punish Falcon then it's easy to say he wins, but Falcon can punish R.O.B just as hard while its easier to get in there with the captain.
I say +3 because I've played this MU a number of times and the Falcon has difficulties getting in and beating me in neutral. I'm not saying that the MU is un-winnable, simply a hard MU. This is also the reason I stated a more professional opinion of 55/45, as I understand that certain aspects of the MU do not always happen in theory.

Getting a grab is not an easy thing to do to a Falcon; however, the CG at low % doesn't make Falcon go onto a platform immediately. After about 20%, then Uthrow can be used to make Falcon go just above the platform as DrinkingFood stated, at which point you also receive better followups. At the same time, ROB can set up for a large combo out of his throws at mid-high%. If the ROB follows their DI correctly, this can usually lead to a ledge guard situation or death.

In neutral, lasers, gyro placement, tilts, and sometimes Dsmash/Usmash can zone out Falcon enough that he can't get in on ROB. The extended combo game plays into ROB's favor, most of these combos can be started way easier in neutral for ROB than Falcon. Landing hits on a ROB as you say with "nair/jab pressure" can be CC'd or shielded. I'm not looking at this one side, simply observing the fact that Falcon's approaches are not nearly as safe as ROB's, and ROB can definitely play safe and camp out Falcon.

And when you say Falcon doesn't kill until around 85% that's a really early kill for a fat character with a good recovery like R.O.B to get killed at, and considering he can combo into those finishing blows I don't see how you can say Falcon loses, let alone +3 because that would mean R.O.B would basically be a hard counter to Falcon and I think Falcon's rate characters like Sheik lower than that for crying out loud.
I say 85% as not everyone is perfect and may slip up on their DI, or the stage may be tiny such as FoD or Yoshi's Story. If ROB is playing safe in Neutral, a Falcon will typically not be able to lead into a combo finisher. Also, for ROB's weight and fall speed, getting a large combo on him only happens at higher %. Anything below 50% can typically be CC'd.
 

Djanko

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jan 30, 2015
Messages
21
Location
North Van B.C. Canada
Is there an optimal way to edgeguard falcons? Is it better to grab ledge or stay on stage? I feel like I would do a lot better in the matchup if I didint drop 50% of my edgegaurds
 

DrinkingFood

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You can't CC grabs or dairs, homie. You also can't CC knee except for the first one at 0. You also can't CC punish nair if Falcon flew a quarter stage behind you as he hit hou. Falcon can approach from across the stage in ROB's blind spot (the SHFFL zone, where ROB has no anti-airs to defend himself), and ROB has no way to stop him or punish him unless he already has a gyro out, which is a tough proposition against falcon or any fast character.
As for CGs and uthrow, ROB doesn't have any vertical juggle moves that work on FFers except his u/d throws and utilt if you can land it. If you force ROB to uthrow you (by getting under a platform where you'll interrupt the dthrow CG), he gets at best one more follow-up, and falcon can escape afterwards if he DI'd properly (down+away for the fair or uair ROB got when you DI'd uthrow away, he can't hit anything else). Afterwards ROB will have way better stage positioning but it's far from a guaranteed stock.

@ Djanko Djanko it depends on how you get him offstage in the first place. Generally speaking, if you send him off and are immediately able to edgeguard, you want to cover a DJ attempt into a side-b ledge grab by lasering the height where it can sweetspot the ledge. Then you can run offstage and try to cover up-b with fairs, but sometimes the grab armor on the hug will beat you out, so you can also try just ledge grabbing, refreshing invul with side-b stalling, then climb up when he up-bs. If you time the climb up at the right time, drifting back will get him edgehogged by the climb up, so he has to go onstage where you get a free grab that can set-up for another edgeguard attempt, or even set-up for a dthrow into kill move. If you are over 100, the climb-up is too slow so you should instead just go for the gimp.
 
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Djanko

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jan 30, 2015
Messages
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Location
North Van B.C. Canada
Hmmm. So besides edge guarding it seems like stunting his nair approach is the biggest thing in the matchup. @ DrinkingFood DrinkingFood Do you know if ROB's grounded side b beats out nair or at least trades? My recent matches vs good Falcons were basically just me struggling to get out of nair pressure and trying to fish for the grab. Is Falcons nair on shield into grab safe? It seemed like it was a very good option coverage regarding ROB's small shield as it poked through a lot.
 

DrinkingFood

Smash Hero
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Beaumont, TX
Grounded side-b loses to almost any aerial in the game because ROB sticks his head out forward as he spins and doesn't cover it with a hitbox. Even if he DID, it would trade at best, and multihit moves don't trade in the user's favor; but it doesn't even trade.

Nair will poke ROB's shield really easily if you angle shield down (like trying to shield out of a CC) or if it gets too small (which doesn't take long). Nair on shield to grab doesn't sound safe but it might be really tough to react to properly.

You can stunt nair/other SH approaches by placing a spinning gyro on a platform, if he SHs he'll just run into it. You'll want to try and protect it tho, because if they are a PM born falcon player they will provably know how to AGT to deal with it.
 
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D e l t a

That one guy who does the thing with a camera.
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Aside from Gyro, wouldn't spaced out Fairs & Forward/Up Tilt be good options to either trade or beat out Falcon's Nair?
 
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Djanko

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jan 30, 2015
Messages
21
Location
North Van B.C. Canada
@ DrinkingFood DrinkingFood what stages do you take falcon to? I usually try to grab FD but it's usually striked so I pick green hill. Is this bad? It seems like there's no platform to really keep the gyro on because I want a flat one for chain grabs. Should I opt for a platform stage?
 

DrinkingFood

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Green hill is actually the best stage for us in this matchup because it's small AND lacks heavy platform coverage. I feel like, even though we lose neutral, so long as you finish your food every time you get a grab or dsmash or nair, you only need to win neutral once per stock. So GHZ and then FD would be our best stages, and kinda SV. Unfortunately the way it's usually set up in PM, the opponent can usually ban or strike both GHZ and FD. So in the case they ban both, try a either SV or small stage instead. SV also has less platform involvement than most stages and isn't too huge; with smaller stages you'll generally have access to platforms in that case too, which will help you win neutral more frequently mostly due to the size of the stage.
 

DrinkingFood

Smash Hero
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Laddie from Gyro, wouldn't spaced out Fairs & Forward/Up Tilt be good options to either trade or beat out Falcon's Nair?
Utilt only hits directly over ROB and has no real function as an anti-air/anti-approach. Up angled ftilt doesn't hit high enough and is super weak if you miss the sweetspot anyway. This is actually ROB's most critical flaw is that he lacks a way to deal with any kind of long reaching SH approach that he can't CC. His shield is ass and he lacks effective OoS options besides grab (usmash is okay but CC or just DI away both make the strong hit miss). All his options to cover the space with a hitbox are slow to end or slow to start or both. And his DD is mediocre so at a certain distance he can't out space approaches.
 
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