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Captain Falcon MU Discussion

chrome12345

Smash Cadet
Joined
Sep 23, 2013
Messages
34
Location
Appleton
Okay so I keep getting beat by falcon players in bracket. So I would like a discussion on strategies to deploy against captain falcon players. Even though I think this match up is hard, I do think this match up is winnable. In the post below, I'll talk about my theoretical approach to the match up. Please chime in on any strategies you guys can think of.
 

chrome12345

Smash Cadet
Joined
Sep 23, 2013
Messages
34
Location
Appleton
Neutral:

This is one of the toughest parts of the MU. Falcon is just so fast and his shield pressure is formidable. I also feel like his ariels have more reach over all. Imo our neutral game should focus on 3 elements: Baiting, Zoning, and Trading.


Baiting-- ZSS does have a great dash dance game and many falcons are too aggressive. So baiting an ariel with dash dance and then grabbing can be very effect in some circumstances. I think its crucial to get grabs because I ultmately think ZSS will win this match up on sheik esque tech chasing, so any time we can bait a grab we should go for it. However there are two counters that falcon can do to this approach.
The first is gentleman after falcon misses an ariel, which is hard to deal with. Any body have an idea how to counter gentleman? Should we try CC'ing the gentleman and trading with jabs our own, or dtilts? (I don't know the frame data really). Or read the gentleman and punish it with side b or dsmash or nair??
The second is Falcon Nairing across the stage to intercept our dash dance. This has been really problematic for me in tournament; I always try to dash away and i get hit (especially on shorter stages). Or I try to back air in place, and the nair often beats it. My suggestion to avoid this, in terms of baiting, is rolling center to gain a more advantageous position, since falcon has already committed to nairing accross the stage. I'll have more suggestions to deal with nair across stage in my zoning section.

Along with baiting, avoiding is super important. I have found that running and crouching with ZSS can sometimes duck falcon ariels.


Zoning-- I believe this will be crucial to the MU. Without Zoning falcon, he will just flat out beat us in neutral because he is faster and he has great ariels. I think we need to utilize stun gun to its full potential in this MU, and I mean it in a zoning way. When Falcon is far away, I do think Full hop charge shots (that are fast falled) can put ample pressure on falcon. If it hits him, then let the combos pursue. If he shields it, we can condition him into jumping or staying in shield. And if he power shields it (which is plausible), its problematic but I still think its worth the risk. The big problem is i think his nair will clank with it (?). Overall, I think fully charged shots, especially from up close, in this MU will carry serious risks and can be heavily punished if we get too predictable with it. That being said, I think uncharged shots are the way to go in this match up.

Imo, uncharged shots will be the secret weapon in this match up. By themselves they aren't that effective; they don't lead into anything most of the time, so we can't treat them like falco's laser. However they are great for stopping momentum. It would be advantageous for us to stop or slow down falcon's dash dance game whenever we can. I suggest that we shoot grounded uncharged shots, when he is far enough away, to force him to either shield or go into the air. We can also shoot shffl uncharged shot if that seems more advantageous, and we can shoot uncharged shots at various ariel positions if the falcon player is jumpy. I think we need to fully explore all of stun gun's possibilities in this match up. My idea is that when we slow or stop falcon, it gives us time to make micro adjustments, such as wave dashing back or turning around so we can bair him.

Once we get center stage then we need to zone falcon out with spaced bairs, uncharged shots, fairs in place, or nairs in place. Whatever it takes, we really need to keep falcon from taking center stage and preventing his movement options. I would love any additional suggestions on how to do this. Spaced bairs in place don't always work in this match up because nair comes in too quickly. What I recommend is to do a retreating bair away to beat nair or knee across stage. It is unfortunate that you will be giving up positional advantage when doing so; however, an over agressive falcon should get hit by it as long as you are retreating the bair.



Trading-- Since falcon has better reach than us, we need to trade at disadvantageous positions to hopefully get a grab tech chase out of it, or an ariel combo. I think uptilt is our saving grace for this; it will trade with nair at lower percents. Dtilts should also be helpful, but I don't know necessarily when yet.


Overall, its imperative that we win neutral in this MU, so any other suggestions please let me know. I will be posting about tech chasing and edge guarding soon
 

chrome12345

Smash Cadet
Joined
Sep 23, 2013
Messages
34
Location
Appleton
Edge Guarding Falcon. I think if he is up high, then shooting a fully charged stun gun isn't a bad idea. You can also try and go for an up B spike if you think you are clever enough. Also I think Dive kick ( A out of side B), is a great edge guard that covers a lot of options, especially falcon's side b recovery and mid low up b's. Down smash if he doesn't sweet spot up B. I have also found that backwards up air from ledge is effective to keeping them off stage.
 

chrome12345

Smash Cadet
Joined
Sep 23, 2013
Messages
34
Location
Appleton
Tech Chasing Falcon. I often d throw at low percents and cover tech in place with Dsmash; it covers tech in place and no tech. Then I either follow up with side b or regrab. If i get the side b I usually do Up tilt or up smash. Once I condition the falcon player to not tech center, then I try to reaction tech chase his tech aways. I'm also experimenting with Up throw as a mix up, and I'm not sure what I'm looking for quite yet. Anyone have any tech chase advice?

Also if d smash seems to be not working, then I'm also experimenting with reacting to tech in place with grab.
 

Myst007_teh_newb

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 11, 2005
Messages
260
Location
Southern California
I don't know if tech chasing is going to be the X-factor in the ZSS-Falcon matchup. Personally, I believe that there are better ways to get bigger punishes off of Falcon and, more importantly, force edge-guard situations. Falcon dies the moment he is thrown offstage. ZSS has a way to deal with Falcon and chase him offstage, then lock him out of the ledge.

You've pretty much summed up the edge guarding game pretty soundly. Sometimes I like to purposely divekick above Falcon in order to force them into ducking under and aiming for the sweetspot. Then you can just tether reel in and scoop the ledge up from underneath their nose. It's good at forcing the situation. Invincible reverse uair from ledge is also incredibly potent and is my go-to if I don't have the time to set up a divekick situation. Also, don't underestimate the value of just doing a ledge jump bair and sniping Falcon out of his space. It's not an art, it's a science. Once Falcon is offstage, he should be dead.

The neutral is very tricky to navigate as ZSS because of what you mention. Falcon can out dash dance you and ZSS doesn't have the tools to avoid getting rolled by bullet train Falcon nairs. Blaster is helpful. Platforms are helpful. Putting Falcon on a platform is the easiest way to get a combo started as he's a little too much of a fast-faller to get scooped up by dtilt like most of the cast. So uthrow onto platform and tech chase for a clean nair. One clean nair should always net you a combo for a decent chunk on % and HOPEFULLY puts Falcon offstage. Utilt is also useful albeit a high-commitment option if you whiff. It does its job as an anti-air and can juggle Falcon pretty good. I've been experimenting with retreating nair in order to beat out Falcon nairs, but it's tough to get down because the spacing and timing is so tight. In theory, it's a good option because of nair's unclankable hitbox, though. Crawling is helpful sorta, as it does help you get around Falcon's nair, but Falcons could just wise up and change their nair plane into a dair copter. Just thinking about the matchup makes me feel dizzy. Both characters are so fast. It's a game of mouse and mouse.

But ZSS has a much more flexible platform game to combat Falcon's superior ground-based dash dance. You're gonna need to come in at weird angles while simultaneously avoiding Falcon's anti-air uair. Bait shffl uairs by being on a platform and fall through with a bair or something in order to punish. Janky, but it has to be. Slipping and sliding off of platforms can get Falcon to chase you into spots where he's at a disadvantage. You're gonna have to nickel and dime him with awkward bairs, nairs, and uairs until you get a good opening. And when you do, you need to carry that opening all the way to the edge of the stage. Falcon doesn't have any options to combo break, so learn all of the DI trees in order to nair/uair him to the blast zone.

It's not a winning matchup by any means, but it's definitely manageable if your movement is on point. So much of the matchup is based off of momentum and stage positioning. If you can choke Falcon out of the space he needs and get the upper hand, you can keep the momentum up for the rest of the stock and juggle him to death. If Falcon grabs you, hope that the combo that follows doesn't carry you to the blast zone. If you don't die immediately, then that's wonderful. You should be able to come back for free because of ZSS's tether mixups. Utilize fading back, down-b, wall jumps, footstooling, and uair in order to kick and scratch until Falcon gives you the ledge.

Recommended stages in my opinion are Dreamland and Distant Planet. PS2 is aight. Stages like Wario Ware and Yoshi's Story are good stages for the courageous. It makes it more awkward for Falcon to move around, but it also makes it so that every combo ends in death. If you're confident in your spacing, then those stages are good picks. But for more methodical play, make the blastzones bigger and take advantage of his inferior offstage game. Stages to avoid are Final Destination and Yoshi's Island. Those stages make the game more horizontally focused, which Falcon thrives off of. ZSS appreciates approaching and carving her game off of those awkward diagonal angles. Green Hill Zone is ish. I personally like the stage, but I can see why Falcon would enjoy it more than ZSS.
 

Player-3

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 11, 2008
Messages
8,994
Location
Georgia
Played wf/gf 9 games vs fatality today, when they get uploaded id like u to help me @ Myst007_teh_newb Myst007_teh_newb i can always get him to last game but uthrow knee killing me at 80 20 times a set breaks my soul ;___;
 
Last edited:

chrome12345

Smash Cadet
Joined
Sep 23, 2013
Messages
34
Location
Appleton
I don't know if tech chasing is going to be the X-factor in the ZSS-Falcon matchup. Personally, I believe that there are better ways to get bigger punishes off of Falcon and, more importantly, force edge-guard situations. Falcon dies the moment he is thrown offstage. ZSS has a way to deal with Falcon and chase him offstage, then lock him out of the ledge.

You've pretty much summed up the edge guarding game pretty soundly. Sometimes I like to purposely divekick above Falcon in order to force them into ducking under and aiming for the sweetspot. Then you can just tether reel in and scoop the ledge up from underneath their nose. It's good at forcing the situation. Invincible reverse uair from ledge is also incredibly potent and is my go-to if I don't have the time to set up a divekick situation. Also, don't underestimate the value of just doing a ledge jump bair and sniping Falcon out of his space. It's not an art, it's a science. Once Falcon is offstage, he should be dead.

The neutral is very tricky to navigate as ZSS because of what you mention. Falcon can out dash dance you and ZSS doesn't have the tools to avoid getting rolled by bullet train Falcon nairs. Blaster is helpful. Platforms are helpful. Putting Falcon on a platform is the easiest way to get a combo started as he's a little too much of a fast-faller to get scooped up by dtilt like most of the cast. So uthrow onto platform and tech chase for a clean nair. One clean nair should always net you a combo for a decent chunk on % and HOPEFULLY puts Falcon offstage. Utilt is also useful albeit a high-commitment option if you whiff. It does its job as an anti-air and can juggle Falcon pretty good. I've been experimenting with retreating nair in order to beat out Falcon nairs, but it's tough to get down because the spacing and timing is so tight. In theory, it's a good option because of nair's unclankable hitbox, though. Crawling is helpful sorta, as it does help you get around Falcon's nair, but Falcons could just wise up and change their nair plane into a dair copter. Just thinking about the matchup makes me feel dizzy. Both characters are so fast. It's a game of mouse and mouse.

But ZSS has a much more flexible platform game to combat Falcon's superior ground-based dash dance. You're gonna need to come in at weird angles while simultaneously avoiding Falcon's anti-air uair. Bait shffl uairs by being on a platform and fall through with a bair or something in order to punish. Janky, but it has to be. Slipping and sliding off of platforms can get Falcon to chase you into spots where he's at a disadvantage. You're gonna have to nickel and dime him with awkward bairs, nairs, and uairs until you get a good opening. And when you do, you need to carry that opening all the way to the edge of the stage. Falcon doesn't have any options to combo break, so learn all of the DI trees in order to nair/uair him to the blast zone.

It's not a winning matchup by any means, but it's definitely manageable if your movement is on point. So much of the matchup is based off of momentum and stage positioning. If you can choke Falcon out of the space he needs and get the upper hand, you can keep the momentum up for the rest of the stock and juggle him to death. If Falcon grabs you, hope that the combo that follows doesn't carry you to the blast zone. If you don't die immediately, then that's wonderful. You should be able to come back for free because of ZSS's tether mixups. Utilize fading back, down-b, wall jumps, footstooling, and uair in order to kick and scratch until Falcon gives you the ledge.

Recommended stages in my opinion are Dreamland and Distant Planet. PS2 is aight. Stages like Wario Ware and Yoshi's Story are good stages for the courageous. It makes it more awkward for Falcon to move around, but it also makes it so that every combo ends in death. If you're confident in your spacing, then those stages are good picks. But for more methodical play, make the blastzones bigger and take advantage of his inferior offstage game. Stages to avoid are Final Destination and Yoshi's Island. Those stages make the game more horizontally focused, which Falcon thrives off of. ZSS appreciates approaching and carving her game off of those awkward diagonal angles. Green Hill Zone is ish. I personally like the stage, but I can see why Falcon would enjoy it more than ZSS.


Great Ideas man! Thanks for the input.
 

chrome12345

Smash Cadet
Joined
Sep 23, 2013
Messages
34
Location
Appleton
I just beat a falcon player in tourney yesterday! A lot of this stuff I theorized actually worked lol
 

dude it's raining

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 1, 2014
Messages
236
Just some responses to the cool things you said:
You mentioned Fairs in place, and that got me thinking about shield-stopped Fairs. I think that would be really good.
Also, in melee, sheik's dtilt is beaten by stomp, and I imagine the same goes for ZSS's dtilt.
 

BuddydaBomb

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jun 17, 2019
Messages
15
Okay so I keep getting beat by falcon players in bracket. So I would like a discussion on strategies to deploy against captain falcon players. Even though I think this match up is hard, I do think this match up is winnable. In the post below, I'll talk about my theoretical approach to the match up. Please chime in on any strategies you guys can think of.
I am a falcon main and the one thing that can kind of be his weakness is he has a very predictable and honest neutral game aside from dash grab. You should use a bait and punish strategy and try to space him out with projectiles or large dis joints
 
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