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Captain falcon matchups

Nicco

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 17, 2009
Messages
328
Let's talk about Marth. A thing Lord told me, and you can see it in his set vs PPU, is that reverse stomp beats their dtilt. Great against a dtilt spamming Marth. Also for Falcons nair, I try to hit Marth with Falcons knees/thighs. The hitboxes seem bigger and it works alot better for me. So try to run in as he whiffs and jump when you're in front of him, so that the the upper part of falcons legs hit him. This will also allow you to follow up with more aerials alot easier. Try and notice how Hax uses the nair https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bgq-k9S2Ok
 

carnivore

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 27, 2006
Messages
55
Marth Killer seems to be forgotten technology and I'm not sure why. Maybe people are giving credit to Marths to do perfect sweet spots but they hardly ever do (at least from what I see watching high level tournament play)
Bluffing it also forces their recovery method and allows you to flow chart them.
I don't have very much experience against good players but how it usually goes is:
Get them offstage > Show Marth Killer > If they try to drift the ledge/stage (airdodge or ledge grab) = jump out bair > if they try to UpB onto stage = reverse knee for high percents, let go of shield DI/switch to hard shield for low percents and Stomp OoS (or even keep doing light shield and stomp for the ledge)

Although I have noticed that the Marth Killer seems to work less on Dreamland. Seems like Marth grabs the ledge before Falcon does very often. Either something to do with the stage's edges or every Marth I've played is coincidentally amazing at sweet spotting only on Dreamland.
 
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bertbusdriver

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 8, 2007
Messages
883
Location
Norcal
Marth Killer seems to be forgotten technology and I'm not sure why. Maybe people are giving credit to Marths to do perfect sweet spots but they hardly ever do (at least from what I see watching high level tournament play)
Bluffing it also forces their recovery method and allows you to flow chart them.
I don't have very much experience against good players but how it usually goes is:
Get them offstage > Show Marth Killer > If they try to drift the ledge/stage (airdodge or ledge grab) = jump out bair > if they try to UpB onto stage = reverse knee for high percents, let go of shield DI/switch to hard shield for low percents and Stomp OoS (or even keep doing light shield and stomp for the ledge)

Although I have noticed that the Marth Killer seems to work less on Dreamland. Seems like Marth grabs the ledge before Falcon does very often. Either something to do with the stage's edges or every Marth I've played is coincidentally amazing at sweet spotting only on Dreamland.
marth killer isn't necessary as falcon. You can stay fully invincible with ledge regrabs or haxdashing. Reverse ledge hop regrab can backflip you right over marth's upB hitboxes anytime they aren't going high even if you haven't retained invincibility.

Also, pretty sure marth killer still works even if marth sweet spots. the sword hits your shield and knocks you onto ledge before he can grab it. You just need to hold your control stick towards ledge as you light shield.
 

Bu$

HoC
Joined
May 10, 2012
Messages
559
Location
Melbourne, Australia
Do you guys prefer playing against Fox or Falco? Personally i think i hate playing against Falco more but they're both frustrating. Also tips on the matchups would be appreciated.
 

Aggromidget

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 22, 2010
Messages
193
marth killer isn't necessary as falcon. You can stay fully invincible with ledge regrabs or haxdashing. Reverse ledge hop regrab can backflip you right over marth's upB hitboxes anytime they aren't going high even if you haven't retained invincibility.

Also, pretty sure marth killer still works even if marth sweet spots. the sword hits your shield and knocks you onto ledge before he can grab it. You just need to hold your control stick towards ledge as you light shield.
Well Marth Killer is completely easy with no tech-skill required.
If the Marth can double jump and grab the ledge, you can bair him. At worst, you'll trade and the trade is probably better for you since Marth is still off-stage (perhaps unrecoverable since bair is a strong attack).
If the Marth can land on the stage with Up-B, then ledge hop knee punish the landing lag.
If the Marth can't land on the stage, then he has lost his stock.

Yes, you can stay fully invincible with ledge regrabs or haxdashing IF YOU'RE FRAME PERFECT. That is, if you regrab the ledge at exactly frame 37 (timed from when you grab the ledge). If you don't grab the ledge at exactly frame 37, you're not completely invincible. Also, even if you ARE frame perfect, Marth can still take the ledge away from you because you're on the ledge for 7 frames and off it for 30 frames.

I think the Marth Killer is the better option against Marth in every situation.
 

bertbusdriver

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 8, 2007
Messages
883
Location
Norcal
I think the Marth Killer is the better option against Marth in every situation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bgq-k9S2Ok#t=69
^ really hoping you realize why your statement is incorrect
In at least 70% of situations you don't have time to set up marth killer, so how could it possibly be the better option in every situation?
ALMOST EVERYTHING IN MELEE IS SITUATIONAL. Marth killer is GREAT when he will only barely make it back onstage. Other situations? not so much.

Yes, I agree that marth killer is SLIGHTLY underused in high level play. On the other hand, I think both you and carnivore are conflating its effectiveness, especially in cases where marth does not just barely make it back to the stage.

If he's going to make it back onstage by a medium to large margin, he can force you onto the ledge by poking your shield with sideB or fair, airdodge back onstage, or double jump to the ledge

Well Marth Killer is completely easy with no tech-skill required.
If the Marth can double jump and grab the ledge, you can bair him. At worst, you'll trade and the trade is probably better for you since Marth is still off-stage (perhaps unrecoverable since bair is a strong attack)..
If he's able to double jump and grab ledge, he will most likely do it from below , making it difficult for you to bair him. If he's coming high, he can probably intercept you with fair. Wavedash backwards onto ledge, force him to go onstage with upB or airdodge, then punish.

Yes, you can stay fully invincible with ledge regrabs or haxdashing IF YOU'RE FRAME PERFECT. That is, if you regrab the ledge at exactly frame 37 (timed from when you grab the ledge). If you don't grab the ledge at exactly frame 37, you're not completely invincible. Also, even if you ARE frame perfect, Marth can still take the ledge away from you because you're on the ledge for 7 frames and off it for 30 frames.
Sure, you're off ledge for 30 frames while refreshing, but you're invincible and able to attack to intercept him grabbing ledge during that time. You don't need to be perfectly invincible the whole time, just invincible when he could conceivably hit you. If he grabs ledge, you probably did something wrong. That's the entire point of taking ledge in the first place: so he can't take ledge.

Another issue: TIME. You need to be facing away from the ledge as close as possible to the ledge while light shielding. You don't necessarily always have the time to set up this situation. Getting on ledge is probably faster. In many cases you don't even have time for that either. A ton of your edgeguard situations against marth will arise from stuff like uthrow->uair->uair or something that might have you offstage as well. Getting to ledge is your best option as opposed to trying to set up a marth killer.
 
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victra♥

crystal skies
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Slippi.gg
victra#0
Do you guys prefer playing against Fox or Falco? Personally i think i hate playing against Falco more but they're both frustrating. Also tips on the matchups would be appreciated.
I love these match ups, they're definitely my favorite match ups in the game.Especially Falco.
 

Twinkles

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 5, 2011
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SoCal
I have no idea how to play the Kirby matchup. I still won, but I had close games with a fraggin' Kirby main. Someone briefly give me some tipsies, cuz I'm very sure I never want to lose to a Kirby in tournament, friendlies, or just flat out ever.
 

kyaputenfarukon07

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 20, 2011
Messages
267
Kirby

Generic Miscellaneous Facts

Kirby can duck under Falcons grab

Kirby can swallowcide

Never approach Kirby when he is at the ledge

Kirby's crouch can avoid most of falcons shffl'd aerials

You can probably chaingrab Kirby (not to well versed with the percentages and different dis )

Like every other character you can break out of bthrow and fthrow and uthrow(?) before the entire animation finishes by mashing

adding another point to the previous point failing to mash out will result a kamikaze situation

Kirby's only move with decent knockback is uair that is usually opted for K.O.ing

Kirby's air speed is approximately same to the one Ganon has iirc

The Neutral

Kirby cannot approach because he does not seem to have any moves to approach with in the first place. You can approach but you have to remind yourself whether there is a reward ratio favoring you or not, based on percent and flow and control of the entire match and positioning. You can dash dance camp forever because it seems like there is very little the Kirby player cannot find a reliable answer to it.

If Kirby wins the neutral its probably because of...

On the ground

Its either your inexperience is or a miscalculation in move placement ie you spaced <insert move> badly and got shield grab or cc grab and put into a dthrow tech chase which is very reliable to the same extent as Shiek's. Kirby's utilt is good at stuffing falcons aerials if its miss spaced and can combo well at low percentages if there is no proper di.

In the air

Kirby's back air is a decent walling move and if you are not aware it can lead to utilts. Kirby's fair is can be used to threaten space when spaced correctly or extend combos whichever case is viable in order to have a positional advantage. Nair has its uses I m not to familiar with generic properties and static defined properties such as at which degree it sends etc.

If Falcon wins the neutral its probably because of...

On the ground

Falcons ground moves do not necessarily compliment his rather unmatched speed on the ground and horizontally in the air . They do not help falcon interact in the neutral with an advantage but can be used as a mixup . If you do get grab due to bad spacing or other some bad habit or something, you can chaingrab as stated above or transition from the ground to the air for the extension of punishment and abusing Kirby's bad air speed with uairs and nairs and finish with a knee.
Well spaced delayed knee (non fastfalled?) can beat u tilt.

In the air

Falcon's obviously much more faster movement in the air compared Kirby's allow him to interact very effectively all his well ranged aerials and combo effectively. Kirby's should never challenge Falcon in the air for the most part anyways.

Edgeuarding

Falcon:

Kirby can mixup recovery pretty well but not to the same extent of flexibility and effectiveness as Jigglypuff. Do not jump at Kirby though while Kirby is offstage, if you get swallowed and dont mash out fast enough you wont be able to comeback most likely. If you manage to get released both characters get all of their jumps back and since he has five jumps its most likely he will be able to comeback and not you.

Kirby:

Falcon is obviously very limited offstage as its very well known a single a hitbox with decent knockback obstructing Falcon 's recovery will convert without problems.

Stages

Large stages compliment Falcon more than small stages and this holds true for this match up I think.

In the past the general consensus was that this match up was pretty even.

This is what I know so far about the match up.

This is some footage of the match up

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axS3ffyTNzg
 
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Equal

Smash Apprentice
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Jan 21, 2013
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NNID
iiEqual
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I'm curious what everyone thinks is Falcon's worst MU? I think it's Falco. Alot of people hate Sheik but I don't think she's all that bad, definitely 2nd or 3rd worst though
 

magister54

Smash Apprentice
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Dec 13, 2013
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76
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Boston, MA
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What is "Marth Killer?" Sorry if that's a stupid question, I've just never heard the term before.
 

Waverider900

Smash Cadet
Joined
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East Coast (Chicago for college)
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I'm curious what everyone thinks is Falcon's worst MU? I think it's Falco. Alot of people hate Sheik but I don't think she's all that bad, definitely 2nd or 3rd worst though
Falco ****s up Falcon's neutral game but Sheik seems to **** up Falcon's combos (at least for me) with how quickly she gets some moves out/ their priority. It's much harder to get stage control against Falco but I've found it's just generall much harder to play against sheik because she has so many options
 

Substance P

Smash Rookie
Joined
Feb 26, 2014
Messages
4
What is "Marth Killer?" Sorry if that's a stupid question, I've just never heard the term before.
If you lightshield on the edge facing away from the edge and marth tries to up B to the ledge, he'll hit you, which slides you onto the edge. Consequently, you ledgehog him.
 

ShrieK1295

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 26, 2009
Messages
371
You also need to angle your shield out or out and slightly down to do the Marth killer.
 
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T-R3X

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 27, 2014
Messages
64
I'm curious what everyone thinks is Falcon's worst MU? I think it's Falco. Alot of people hate Sheik but I don't think she's all that bad, definitely 2nd or 3rd worst though
Sheik Falco or Fox for sure...can't decide which one though
I don't think Falco is too too bad because even though he has lasers and he can combo the crap out of you at least you can kill him quick. Sheik is hard cause she can beat all your moves with her moves but again you can kill her quick. I think fox is harder to kill but he doesn't have lasers or gigantic fast hitboxes (sheik f tilt).
I think it's kinda dependant on personal strengths. I think I'm pretty good at comboing and edgeguarding but I'm not so good at tech chasing so to me fox is probably the hardest. but if ur spacing's good then you can kinda beat or trade all of foxes moves so again it's still about even for me.
 

1MachGO

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
807
I'm not a Falcon main, but from I have observed/learned:

Falcon gets hard countered by Falco
...is countered by Fox/Sheik
...either soft countered or even with Jigglypuff
...somewhere between even or even a soft counter on Marth
...generally believed to beat everyone else (ranging from soft counter to hard counter)... he might go even with Mario or Pikachu, but there isn't enough data to support or go against this position

Some reasons why Fox/Falco beat Falcon:
>Fox, Falco, and Falcon are all fast fallers. The former two are superb at comboing this fallspeed class whereas Falcon is pretty bad at it. This is because Falcon's best combo moves (throws, nair, uair) have low base knockback and are more ideal for comboing floaties (Falcon is marignally contested by Young Link for being the best floaty comboer in the game)
>On top of an already skewed punish game, Falcon's recovery is horrendous and Fox and Falco both have excellent moves for exploiting it (shine and dair respectively)
>While Falcon has some excellent lateral edge guarding and extremely strong attacks, he doesn't have priority on these moves to same level as the spacies' nair, dair, bair, shine, and utilt. He has to be on his A-game in terms of spacing or else these characters will punish him
>Falcon has a great tech chase on Fox, but it still requires some reads to get results. The tech chase on Falco is effective as well, but Falco's much longer tech roll makes it even harder
>Falcon has some of the sh*ttiest OoS options in the game and Fox and Falco are both really good at shield pressure
>Falcon has amazing mobility, but is somewhat dependent on it in terms of dealing with Falco's lasers
>Falco's lasers and free punishes from shine combos and dair edge guards (as well as a good tech roll in the MU where Falcon is extremely dependent on tech chases) makes the MU worse for Falcon despite the fact Falco is much easier to kill when he is off stage

Sheik:
>Sheik has an easy-mode edge guard vs. Falcon, a lot of high priority attacks, and an easy tech chase thanks to Falcon's abysmal rolls. He also has a tough time dealing with shino stall and needles (then again, this is also true for most chars, so...)
>With that said, Falcon can actually combo and punish sheik pretty good. He has a lot of guaranteed stuff from his throws,
 

T-R3X

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 27, 2014
Messages
64
I don't think you're emphasizing how easy it is to tech-chase falcon as sheik. You can zero to death him on reaction. I think they're all effective counters to falcon.
 

1MachGO

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
807
^I agree that the tech chase is horrible, but I just think that Falcon has less disadvantages vs. Sheik than he does vs. Falco (and maybe Fox)
 

Aceflight

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Aug 17, 2012
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Glendale/Crescenta Valley, CA
I have no idea how to play the Kirby matchup. I still won, but I had close games with a fraggin' Kirby main. Someone briefly give me some tipsies, cuz I'm very sure I never want to lose to a Kirby in tournament, friendlies, or just flat out ever.
Did you play him at SSS? If so I had him in my pool too lol (RodgerDodger) I beat him in tourney, but before that he was kinda wrecking me in friendlies ._. I had to adapt to certain stuff, some of which kyaputenfarukon covered, like he ducked almost ALL of my grabs lol so I would just mix it up with stomps whenever he expected a grab. Overall I was just happy with how I adapted on the fly x)
 
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Nicco

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 17, 2009
Messages
328
Falcon counters all

just phuck em up
 
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SwiftOfDaSouth

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 29, 2014
Messages
238
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The South (Fairhope, Alabama)
I've heard that Falcon is a hard counter to Ice Climbers, but apparently my friend doesn't know that and whoops me every time with them or sheik. He shields every one of my approaches then tech chases the grabs he gets from them. Any help on either of these two match ups?
 

Smokey Huntz

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 25, 2010
Messages
91
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Bronx
I think fox is definitely falccon's worst match up especially if the fox knows how to play it. I fox that beats falcon out of his aerials and then punishes him super hard for it is the most deadly. Vs. sheik it feels hard but always possible. Vs. Falco his lasers are the hard part but once you learn how to deal with them the burden gets lightened I feel like Falco's punish game on falcon is a bit lacking
 

Smokey Huntz

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 25, 2010
Messages
91
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Bronx
using falcon vs. Ic's you want to camp platforms.
Knee on their shield is positive so they can't do much to a well placed knee that's spaced.
Learn how to shield drop if your controller permits it because that's how I hit ic's alot of the time.
Do not shield against them too much
Learn how to di out of dthrow dair which for falcon I think is di'ing up (someone plz correct me if I am wrong)
Combo the living daylights out of Nana if you get the oppurtunity
Grab them alot and see how they like it
 

SwiftOfDaSouth

Smash Journeyman
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May 29, 2014
Messages
238
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The South (Fairhope, Alabama)
So... how do l fight Samus?
Don't get hit.



No seriously; spotdogde, sheild, or jump over her missiles, play with a wary eye when she builds up a charge beam and make her waste it, and always keep her sex kick in mind. If you do all these things, along with the basics of spacing so you don't get grabbed, you can combo her floaty ass with Up Airs, Nairs, Raptor Boosts, Dtilts, Up and Down Throws, and finish with the knee. Is this good or do you need more?
 

krazyzyko

Smash Champion
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Aug 12, 2005
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El Carajo, Puerto Rico
Don't get hit.



No seriously; spotdogde, sheild, or jump over her missiles, play with a wary eye when she builds up a charge beam and make her waste it, and always keep her sex kick in mind. If you do all these things, along with the basics of spacing so you don't get grabbed, you can combo her floaty *** with Up Airs, Nairs, Raptor Boosts, Dtilts, Up and Down Throws, and finish with the knee. Is this good or do you need more?
It's good, but there is one more thing. How do l edgeguard her?
 
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Smokey Huntz

Smash Apprentice
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Nov 25, 2010
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91
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Bronx
My friend and
It's good, but there is one more thing. How do l edgeguard her?
I used to joke that there is no real way to edge guard samus so we used to let her just come back DO NOT DO THAT

I'm pretty bad at it but what you can do is quite simply hold the edge and try retain invincibility (ledge dashes or just letting go and regrabbing idc) and when she grapples try to react to her coming up with a bair or stomp. when she tries to up B after that you can do the same retaining invincibilty junk and either stomp bair or reverse knee her up b
 

LowKey

Smash Rookie
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Dec 26, 2013
Messages
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Newark, DE
It's good, but there is one more thing. How do l edgeguard her?
b-airs are very useful for edge guarding samus. If you get her off just stall on the ledge with invincibility until she comes back. Also, shielding is quite safe in this matchup since her grab kind of sucks and most of the time you can run up and shield as an approach.
 

Smokey Huntz

Smash Apprentice
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Nov 25, 2010
Messages
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Bronx
b-airs are very useful for edge guarding samus. If you get her off just stall on the ledge with invincibility until she comes back. Also, shielding is quite safe in this matchup since her grab kind of sucks and most of the time you can run up and shield as an approach.
On that same note when you run up and shield listen out for that "Obnoxious sound" that her grapple makes to dodge and punish her. while knee is a valid punish at lower percents I've opted to grab her back as I think I can get more percent from the follow ups
 

Smokey Huntz

Smash Apprentice
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Nov 25, 2010
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Could you explain this comment, please?
Almost all of falco's moves can be smash DI'd to the point where it'd be too difficult for him to follow up. Where as when you get hit by fox he can always follow up
 

SwiftOfDaSouth

Smash Journeyman
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May 29, 2014
Messages
238
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The South (Fairhope, Alabama)
I would not recommend shielding against Samus's missiles, and Falcon's spotdodge sucks. Missiles have a decent amount of shieldstun, and Samus can follow up on a shielded missile fairly well. You know you can just nair through missiles right?
Right but sometimes Samus players will want to sit back and rely only on their projectiles. I agree, spot dodging and such in close quarters is a big no - no
 
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