Captain Falcon Match-Up (MU) Discussion

[Maître Luigi]

This is a list of all the character specific Captain Falcon MU questions to date (15-01-05 | 00:00). If you have a question about any of these character MU please check the links below first before asking. If a character isn't listed, either I missed a question or it hasn't been asked. I will update this list as more posts/threads are made.

Captain Falcon :

Spoiler

http://smashboards.com/threads/i-cant-ever-beat-a-falcon-how-are-you-supposed-to-fight-him.380202/
http://smashboards.com/threads/captain-falcon-the-new-little-mac-and-mk.378562/

Diddy Kong :

Spoiler

http://smashboards.com/posts/18316504/

Duck Hunt :

Spoiler

http://smashboards.com/posts/18310440/

Ike :

Spoiler

http://smashboards.com/threads/how-to-fight-ike.380737/

Jigglypuff :

Spoiler

http://smashboards.com/threads/help-fighting-jigglypuff.384381/
http://smashboards.com/posts/18255288/

Kirby :

Spoiler

http://smashboards.com/threads/help-grabbing-kirby.384427/

Little Mac :

Spoiler

http://smashboards.com/threads/how-to-beat-little-mac.371992/

Luigi :

Spoiler

http://smashboards.com/posts/18151850/
http://smashboards.com/posts/18255288/
http://smashboards.com/threads/need-help-fighting-luigi.385100/

Mario :

Spoiler

http://smashboards.com/threads/escape-marios-pre-school-combo.381989/
http://smashboards.com/threads/i-cant-beat-mario.377584/
http://smashboards.com/posts/18255288/

Marth/ Lucina :

Spoiler

http://smashboards.com/threads/falcon-lucina-mu.385155/
http://smashboards.com/threads/lucina-marth.373991/

Mega Man :

Spoiler

http://smashboards.com/posts/18291630/

Ness :

Spoiler

http://smashboards.com/threads/some-falcon-questions.381344/
http://smashboards.com/posts/18271627/

Pac-Man :

Spoiler

http://smashboards.com/threads/how-to-beat-zero-suit-samus-and-pac-man.376517/
http://smashboards.com/threads/struggling-against-captain-falcons.378376/

R.O.B. :

Spoiler

http://smashboards.com/threads/any-tips-for-a-rob-matchup.377158/
http://smashboards.com/posts/18151850/

Robin :

Spoiler

http://smashboards.com/threads/regarding-robin-matchup.372794/

Rosalina & Luma :

Spoiler

http://smashboards.com/posts/18154199/

Samus :

Spoiler

http://smashboards.com/posts/18173442/

Soinc :

Spoiler

http://smashboards.com/threads/help-against-high-level-sonics.384503/
http://smashboards.com/threads/i-cant-beat-sonic.380179/
http://smashboards.com/threads/how-do-you-deal-with-sonic.383519/
http://smashboards.com/threads/falcon-newbie-cannot-kill-a-sonic-or-a-yoshi.373073/

Villager :

Spoiler

http://smashboards.com/threads/how-to-beat-villager.385338/
http://smashboards.com/posts/18310440/

Wario :

Spoiler

http://smashboards.com/posts/18255288/

Yoshi :

Spoiler

http://smashboards.com/threads/falcon-newbie-cannot-kill-a-sonic-or-a-yoshi.373073/
http://smashboards.com/threads/the-yoshi-mu.372597/
http://smashboards.com/posts/18292269/

Zero-Suit Samus :

Spoiler

http://smashboards.com/threads/how-to-beat-zero-suit-samus-and-pac-man.376517/

 

[BigLord]

@victra♥ need a sticky here! Great job, @ M Maître Luigi !

We should use this thread later for XX:XX data, too.

 

[Metalex]

Awesome! Finally someone made some kind of matchup thread! (I was too lazy to do it myself )

Maybe you can add links respective characters board about the Captain Falcon matchup? (if they have one). I think it could always be useful to see from their point of view what they think about the matchup!

Also it might be cool if you would add the icons for each character etc to make it easier to navigate.

 

[Spak]

Looked for Sheik and this is all I found:
http://smashboards.com/threads/how-to-fight-sheik-with-cap.377264/

 

[Dinotard]

Any tips against diddy?

 

[Spak]

Any tips against diddy?

+++

 

[Dinotard]

+++

I'll be honest, I haven't really faced a good diddy yet.. But I wanna be prepared for when I do.
Going to my first tourney tomorrow and I know Diddy is gonna be everywhere.
Is this matchup really that difficult?

 

[Spak]

I'll be honest, I haven't really faced a good diddy yet.. But I wanna be prepared for when I do.
Going to my first tourney tomorrow and I know Diddy is gonna be everywhere.
Is this matchup really that difficult?

I haven't gone up against that good of a diddy, nor have I gone to a Smash 4 tournament so I'm not sure. The most recent tournament I've gone to was in September (before either Smash came out), but I know that Diddy has strong combos, has two projectiles, is fast, has a decent recovery, and I think he is top-tier. The MU isn't impossible as shown here, but it won't be in your favor.

 

[teluoborg]

One thing you should know against Diddy is that in the neutral he can't pull out a banana for free. If he tries to you can just run up to him and either steal his banana or Uair/Nair him.

The rest is just basic stuff, don't let him grab you too much, punish stuff with dash grab etc etc. Really the matchup is not that hard.

 

[HFlash]

This is some good stuff but it feels sort of random and some of the links never have MU info, just the unanswered Q to the MU. Some of the other boards are using a stickied thread to talk about the Mus individually and personally feel the same should be done here. Preferably talk about some of C.F's bad MUs first.

Regardless, for not being a mod, great work @ M Maître Luigi

 

[Maître Luigi]

This is some good stuff but it feels sort of random and some of the links never have MU info, just the unanswered Q to the MU. Some of the other boards are using a stickied thread to talk about the Mus individually and personally feel the same should be done here. Preferably talk about some of C.F's bad MUs first.

Regardless, for not being a mod, great work @ M Maître Luigi

This is why the thread is titled "Captain Falcon Match-Up Discussion" and not "Captain Falcon Q&A/FAQ."

 

[teluoborg]

@ HFlash this thread is pretty good for now, because I don't think there are enough people with enough experience to talk about numerous matchups. What we should do for now is use this thread to discuss all the matchups depending on what people are experiencing at the moment.

Give it 3-4 months and let a few major tournaments pass and we'll get a decent amount of experience of what matchups look like and which characters we need to focus on.

In the meantime it doesn't hurt to talk about the big guys (Diddy, Sheik, ZSS, etc).

 

[Jebus244]

Can we discuss the Greninja match-up? Played vs a good one recently, and the majority of my deaths were from my low recoveries when I did my upB to sweet spot the ledge, he would run off and Bair, stage spiking me. There were very few times he didn't catch me with this, but I think it was his timing. I found FFUair to be my safest approach, although I would Nair to close in the distance while short-hopping and full-hopping over his grounded and short hopped shurikens. Attacking him on the stage and getting him off the stage never proved too big of a problem, though captain is of course succeptible vs those early combos, it was mostly his early kills from stage spikes that had me losing. Eventually I started trying to hold the center like Little Mac, but still could keep it up for long. Anyone have much success in this match-up?

 

[teluoborg]

If you get stage spiked then tech ?????

Only thing I know about the matchup is that you can't jab him because he can interrupt you between jab 2 and 3.

 

[Trifroze]

Whenever we come to a conclusion of a certain MU (with legit information to back it up), maybe add that conclusion / key points under each character along with MU ratio estimate in the first post? Right now it's mostly functioning as a compilation of discussions.

So far I'd say Falcon's hardest relevant MUs are Pikachu, Ness and Rosalina. Yoshi, ZSS and Fox seem about even or favorable. Not sure about Diddy, Sheik or Sonic.

 

[Jebus244]

If you get stage spiked then tech ?????

Only thing I know about the matchup is that you can't jab him because he can interrupt you between jab 2 and 3.

oh yeah... Wow, well I feel dumb... I mostly meant the approach. I did tech but didn't always land it because of input lag, but is greninjas's hit box that small vs falcon's upB?

EDIT: can you buffer techs in sm4sh?

 

[warionumbah2]

Whenever we come to a conclusion of a certain MU (with legit information to back it up), maybe add that conclusion / key points under each character along with MU ratio estimate in the first post? Right now it's mostly functioning as a compilation of discussions.

So far I'd say Falcon's hardest relevant MUs are Pikachu, Ness and Rosalina. Yoshi, ZSS and Fox seem about even or favorable. Not sure about Diddy, Sheik or Sonic.

All of the above, I would also Include Marth he has a small edge against falcon and I mean really small.

 

[Meta651]

Guys I wanted to ask how is Captain Falcon MU against Sheik and Diddy? I'm a Robin main but I'm having a hard time against them and I'm thinking in using the Cap as my second option.

 

[Maître Luigi]

Whenever we come to a conclusion of a certain MU (with legit information to back it up), maybe add that conclusion / key points under each character along with MU ratio estimate in the first post? Right now it's mostly functioning as a compilation of discussions.

Please keep in mind that whatever conclusion is made on any character specific MU is purely subjective. That being said, I will attempt to add the Smash Board consensus(es) as they becomes available to me, but for now Sm4sh is pretty open for discussion.

MU ratio is a useless statistic. If you insist on using statistics please use frame data, hit priority or hit range.

 

[Silvalfo]

The fact that Greninja can halt a jab combo is grossly mean, jeez.

I like MU ratios though. They kind of sum up everything frame data, hitboxes and etc mean on the matchup.

 

[Trifroze]

Please keep in mind that whatever conclusion is made on any character specific MU is purely subjective. That being said, I will attempt to add the Smash Board consensus(es) as they becomes available to me, but for now Sm4sh is pretty open for discussion.

MU ratio is a useless statistic. If you insist on using statistics please use frame data, hit priority or hit range.

The only reason I can see why MU ratios would be considered useless is because many people seem confused about its meaning. It's an estimate of how many fights the characters are likely to win versus each other in the hands of two similarly skilled high level players based on the advantages and disadvantages they have. The fact that it's not perfectly measurable like frame data doesn't mean it's useless. It helps understand the situation more often than not as long as there are reasons to back it up, and that makes it worthwhile.

i.e. character a and b have a similarly easy time getting in on, punishing and comboing each other, but the other one has a slightly easier time recovering -> 45:55. Same thing, but the other character literally dies offstage -> 30:70. Whatever you do, you'll have to describe the situation with either a simplifying adjective or a number. MU ratio is just a tl;dr description that also summarizes the analysis down to a simple perspective.

 

[HFlash]

Whenever we come to a conclusion of a certain MU (with legit information to back it up), maybe add that conclusion / key points under each character along with MU ratio estimate in the first post? Right now it's mostly functioning as a compilation of discussions.

So far I'd say Falcon's hardest relevant MUs are Pikachu, Ness and Rosalina. Yoshi, ZSS and Fox seem about even or favorable. Not sure about Diddy, Sheik or Sonic.

HOLY HELL DO I HATE NESS. My best friend mains him and it is definitely feels like 7-3 MU, maybe 6.5-3. It really feels like I have to outplay him to win. I know the best way to "deal with it" is to simply be defensive and let him approach but why should he if he has projectiles on us?

 

[BigLord]

He has projectiles? All he has is upB, neutralB and sideB.

upB can be dodged easily (unless you're off-stage, obviously).
neutralB is a non-issue.
sideB is where the fun starts. A good ness won't spam sideB, but if he does, you can simply shield it (best way to do this is bait Ness by dashing -> shielding) and it won't activate. Best of all, if he misses (or it hits your shield), you have enough time to dash-grab him and punish.

So I play him like I would play a non-projectile character. He's still tough (holy crap I hate his throws so damn much) but nowhere close to 7-3. 6-4 seems reasonable.

 

[teluoborg]

The only reason I can see why MU ratios would be considered useless is because many people seem confused about its meaning. It's an estimate of how many fights the characters are likely to win versus each other in the hands of two similarly skilled high level players based on the advantages and disadvantages they have. The fact that it's not perfectly measurable like frame data doesn't mean it's useless. It helps understand the situation more often than not as long as there are reasons to back it up, and that makes it worthwhile.

It doesn't mater if there are reasons to back them up, numbers have no objective definition and no one ever uses them in their statistical sense. So you have people arguing over a matchup being 55-45, 6-4 or 65-35 when they agree on the facts.

When matchups are discussed you should summarize them as neutral, advantage or disadvantage. Discussing numbers is a waste of time and energy.

Edit : perfect example above : "I feel like it's 7-3" has no meaning and you can't argue for or against it. Same for the answer from Biglord "6-4 seems reasonable".
Everyone please refrain from doing that.

 

[Trifroze]

It doesn't mater if there are reasons to back them up, numbers have no objective definition and no one ever uses them in their statistical sense. So you have people arguing over a matchup being 55-45, 6-4 or 65-35 when they agree on the facts.

When matchups are discussed you should summarize them as neutral, advantage or disadvantage. Discussing numbers is a waste of time and energy.

Edit : perfect example above : "I feel like it's 7-3" has no meaning and you can't argue for or against it. Same for the answer from Biglord "6-4 seems reasonable".
Everyone please refrain from doing that.

Then there should be a topic that describes the numbers or describe them here such as:

5:5 even
6:4 advantage/disadvantage
7:3 considerable advantage/disadvantage
8:2 extreme advantage/disadvantage
9:1 nearly unloseable/unwinnable
10:0 unloseable/unwinnable (practically this shouldn't even exist)

Unless you're suggesting we shouldn't come to any conclusion about how good or bad certain MUs are for Falcon. It has to be described either by an adjective or a number, and the latter is a shorter and more common way of doing it.

 

[Jebus244]

In regard to Marth, I was looking through the marth forum and found this post. I think it's a pretty good analysis of the match up from Marth's perspective, as well as falcon's, if not somewhat biased. But good none the less.

 

[teluoborg]

Then there should be a topic that describes the numbers or describe them here such as:

5:5 even
6:4 advantage/disadvantage
7:3 considerable advantage/disadvantage
8:2 extreme advantage/disadvantage
9:1 nearly unloseable/unwinnable
10:0 unloseable/unwinnable (practically this shouldn't even exist)

Unless you're suggesting we shouldn't come to any conclusion about how good or bad certain MUs are for Falcon. It has to be described either by an adjective or a number, and the latter is a shorter and more common way of doing it.

It already happened, then people started arguing over adjectives instead of numbers.

Read me well (maybe I didn't express myself properly, english isn't my native language) : I didn't say we shouldn't put an adjective or a number to summarize how a matchup feels, I said we shouldn't discuss said numbers or adjectives.

Trust me, I've been part of the discussion panel on the last 2 matchup charts and I've seen way too many "lol no it can't be a 6:4 we have [insert unrelated character here] at 6:4 and there's no way this matchup is as hard as that matchup". It doesn't go anywhere and it makes everyone angry.

What we should discuss is how each characters' options interact with each other's, how big is the margin of error for each, who can take the most advantage of the ruleset, etc.

The only moment a number should be assigned to a matchup is at the end of the discussion when everything is said and a consensus is reached over a clear summary, when it should appear as evident and undeniable as the result of a mathematical equation.

 

[Trifroze]

The only moment a number should be assigned to a matchup is at the end of the discussion when everything is said and a consensus is reached over a clear summary, when it should appear as evident and undeniable as the result of a mathematical equation.

That is basically what I was going for when I said "as long as there are reasons to back it up".

 

[Jebus244]

What we should discuss is how each characters' options interact with each other's, how big is the margin of error for each, who can take the most advantage of the ruleset, etc.

YES, DEAR BEELZEBUB! There are too many comments about win/loss ratios. Even if someone posts about them, just ignore that part and take what they have to say into account.

Now does anyone care to discuss Greninja? I have not been able to reproduce his ability to interrupt the gentlemen. Supposedly he can interrupt it with a jab, but I tried this in smash mode and training mode at 1/4 speed: I hold 'A' with captain falcon to perform a gentleman while mashing 'A' with Greninja and I have not been able to reproduce it. Is it possible that people are making a mistake in saying this? Maybe people who believe this are tapping 'A' instead of holding it down.

 

[BigLord]

Maybe we should take it to the Greninja boards, @ Jebus244 ? Can you be our emissary ?

And I completely agree with @ Trifroze on the matter of MU ratios. It's just a matter of convenience, the numbers don't really have to be accurate to the decimal point. My point before is that Ness has an advantage, yes, but it's not as bad as people thought it was.

 

[Jebus244]

Maybe we should take it to the Greninja boards, @ Jebus244 ? Can you be our emissary ?

So this thread isn't for discussing match-ups?

 

[BigLord]

I meant that you could go and ask the Greninja boards about interrupting the gentleman. Of course this thread is about match-ups.

 

[Jebus244]

I meant that you could go and ask the Greninja boards about interrupting the gentleman. Of course this thread is about match-ups.

Hmm, but I think the question I'm asking right now would be better answered by a Falcon in regards to whether they are holding the 'A' button down to perform the gentleman, or tapping 'A'.

 

[Tuffi]

Can we get something against Olimar? That **** is annoying as hell to deal with, hard to approach and edgeguard. Any tips?

 

[BigLord]

I don't have any experience against Olimar, but I just took a quick peek at the Olimar boards. They apparently hate dealing with us specially when agressive. So be agressive (but not too much!). Dash attacks, dash grabs, the works. Dash attack is particularly important because it gets rid of pikmin easily.

(oh and be very VERY careful when recovering, because Olimar can gimp us easily)

 

[Trifroze]

Falcon seems to do pretty well against Olimar because he can rush Olimar down and not really let him do his thing. Any Pikmin throw that doesn't stun you is a free dash grab or dash attack, just run through and take the trade and follow up with nair and uair juggles. Otherwise use bair and nair to wall out Pikmin and to get them off of you. Dair or bair his recovery since he's easy to gimp.

Don't take unnecessary risks at low or high %, Olimar can rack up like 50% damage when you're low and he can kill Falcon as early as Falcon can kill Olimar.

 

[Tuffi]

I see, I had some minor problems against Olimar earlier, most of the times I tried to approach with dash attacks or dash grabs, he would grab me first. I guess I'll have to work more on my approaches.

 

[KeketheBasedCat]

Having been an olimar main all of brawl's lifespan, I can offer some loose insight into Olimar's weaknesses. Obviously, he plays a lot differently in this game, but there are some things that carry over.

First, and this may seem pretty obvious, try to approach him at a sort of 45-degree angle. That is, use a lot of sh'd aerials that aren't easily beaten out by his fsmash or grab. The normal linear dash attack/dash grab mixup isn't gonna fly as well with Olimar, as it seems a lot of people have already figured out. Olimar, especially now that his albeit situational Brawl UpB is gone, has a hard time defending that sort of cone projecting at a 45-degree angle from his helmet. Now that his usmash is a lot slower and clunkier (though still good), I think the diagonal approach is even better now. Of course, if he's getting used to your sh'd aerials and just pressing shield, you can start doing some empty short-hops into grab and what have you.
Secondly, Olimar still has some serious issues with landing. Similar to when he's on the ground, he can't very well cover diagonal approaches to his body in the air. M2K I think mentions this in his MK vs Oli matchup article. Luckily for us, we main Falcon's uair, which we almost always throw out kind of diagonally-below the opponent. So once Olimar's in the air, Falcon's juggle game is even better than normal, since Oli doesn't really have many good options to trade with uair. And if he's airdodging, that's definitely preferable.

I also think that Oli has a really hard time recovering against falcon. Bair eats his recovery for breakfast, and if you're really going for style points, I find that his recovery is slow and predictable enough to land UpB's on. If he's recovering high, that's completely fine for falcon. If he's recovering underneath the stage, we're fast enough to run to the other side and continue the edge guarding.


Lastly, and this should seem pretty logical, don't kill pikmin with your smash attacks. Olimar thrives off of punishing stupid stuff like that, and best-case scenario it'll stale your smashes.

 

[KenMeister]

Having been an olimar main all of brawl's lifespan, I can offer some loose insight into Olimar's weaknesses. Obviously, he plays a lot differently in this game, but there are some things that carry over.

First, and this may seem pretty obvious, try to approach him at a sort of 45-degree angle. That is, use a lot of sh'd aerials that aren't easily beaten out by his fsmash or grab. The normal linear dash attack/dash grab mixup isn't gonna fly as well with Olimar, as it seems a lot of people have already figured out. Olimar, especially now that his albeit situational Brawl UpB is gone, has a hard time defending that sort of cone projecting at a 45-degree angle from his helmet. Now that his usmash is a lot slower and clunkier (though still good), I think the diagonal approach is even better now. Of course, if he's getting used to your sh'd aerials and just pressing shield, you can start doing some empty short-hops into grab and what have you.
Secondly, Olimar still has some serious issues with landing. Similar to when he's on the ground, he can't very well cover diagonal approaches to his body in the air. M2K I think mentions this in his MK vs Oli matchup article. Luckily for us, we main Falcon's uair, which we almost always throw out kind of diagonally-below the opponent. So once Olimar's in the air, Falcon's juggle game is even better than normal, since Oli doesn't really have many good options to trade with uair. And if he's airdodging, that's definitely preferable.

I also think that Oli has a really hard time recovering against falcon. Bair eats his recovery for breakfast, and if you're really going for style points, I find that his recovery is slow and predictable enough to land UpB's on. If he's recovering high, that's completely fine for falcon. If he's recovering underneath the stage, we're fast enough to run to the other side and continue the edge guarding.


Lastly, and this should seem pretty logical, don't kill pikmin with your smash attacks. Olimar strives off of punishing stupid stuff like that, and best-case scenario it'll stale your smashes.

Yeah, I don't find the Pikmin to be huge issue either. I usually just nair them off or away from me, and since I'm short hopping anyway, something like that can be hard for Olimar to punish (in other words, don't shield them off of you). That being said though, he can kill us pretty early (like around 110% or so), and stuff like his F-smashes, ftilts, and fairs, do an okay job spacing out Falcon, but again, nair is your best friend in this matchup. Also, if I'm not mistaken, a well-spaced bair should be able to beat his up-close options. I think this matchup is something like 50-50 or 55-45 Falcon.

 

[KeketheBasedCat]

Oh also, our jab beats his jab all day. I would also stress jab-jab-grab more in this matchup than others, seeing as olimar players are more afraid of someone in their face than, say, zss or sonic players. Consequently, they're more likely to choose shield when panicked and up close, giving us a free grab into a presumably long juggle.