Captain Falcon discussion

King Funk

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#1
This is my opinion on Falcon matchups. I've always been a firm believer that Dreamland is a far better stage for Falcon overall because he dominates most of the other characters through the use of platforms. Unlike many people, when I talk about platforms I'm not talking about how his combos are improved. With his speed, his usmash, his nair, uair and other various moves he can make it unviable for other characters to use platforms while keeping them for himself. In other words, Falcon can platform camp while making it impossible for opponents to even use platforms.

In Hyrule he doesn't have that dominance and opponents usually feel a lot less claustrophobic vs Falcon.

I also think that "Falcon gets gimped too easily on Dreamland" is a very bad argument, because:
- most Falcon players suck at recovering
- what he gains in Dreamland is far greater than what he loses (stage control, combos > survivability).

I think Mahie can back me up a little for this.

I will explain this more in detail as we discuss his matchups.

________________________________________________

Falcon on Hyrule:

Pikachu : Disadvantage
Fox: Disadvantage
Kirby : Strong Disadvantage
Mario : Disadvantage
Yoshi : Advantage
DK : Small Advantage
Ness : Advantage
Jigglypuff : Small Advantage
Luigi : Strong Advantage
Link : Small Advantage
Samus : Strong Advantage

Falcon on Dreamland:

Pikachu : Even or Small Disadvantage
Fox: Small Advantage
Kirby : Strong Disadvantage
Mario : Even
Yoshi : Advantage
DK : Small Advantage
Ness : Strong Advantage
Jigglypuff : Advantage
Luigi : Strong Advantage
Link : Strong Advantage
Samus : Advantage or Strong Advantage
 

SuPeRbOoM

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#2
For Dreamland I would change:

Fox: Even or Small disadvantage(Leaning more towards even)
Mario: Small advantage
Jiggly: maaaaaaaaaybe small advantage

I don't usually rate Hyrule matchups but, playing as Samus vs Falcon on Hyrule really really really sucks for Samus.
 
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#3
Hyrule:
Fox: Disadvantage (I know you had this as a possibility, but I don't think it's bad enough for a strong disadvantage)
Mario: Slight Disadvantage
Link: Advantage
Samus: Strong Advantage (maybe the only match-up vs Falcon that I prefer on Dreamland)

Dreamland:
Pikachu: Slight Disadvantage, not even
Mario: Even

I have to admit I'm a tad biased against Mario. Maybe. I really do think he's overrated, though.

I wanted to say that Falcon had an advantage on DK on both stages, but I feel like DK is the character I know least about, so I won't say anything.
 
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#5
Falcon Fox Hyrule should be small disadvantage if you ask me

also Falcon is good vs Pika on Hyrule. small disadvantage

Falcon Yoshi might be small disadvantage for both. Yoshi can do really well against Falcon if the Yoshi is good.
 
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#6
Pikachu vs Falcon on DL should at least be a small advantage.

regardless of "recovering" as you put it, pikachu can gimp falcon to no end after any throw at any %. The ability to recover in these situations is minimal regardless to whos playing.
 

King Funk

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#7
Pikachu vs Falcon on DL should at least be a small advantage.

regardless of "recovering" as you put it, pikachu can gimp falcon to no end after any throw at any %. The ability to recover in these situations is minimal regardless to whos playing.
Try to gimp me at Apex dude. =D

Falcon has the easiest time of all characters killing Pikachu if he gets a single hit in, especially on that stage so it really compensates. And as I said, most Falcon players suck at mixing up their recoveries (I know a limited recovery like Falcon's having mixups sounds absurd but yeah).
 
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#8
Lets assume they dont suck at mixing up. You are over estimating the ability to recover at all.

And saying **** like "gimp me at apex" is kinda pointless...

Falcons "easiest" time killing pikachu doesn't make up for the fact that pikachu still kills him way faster in every scenario on DL.
 
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#9
Try to gimp me at Apex dude. =D

Falcon has the easiest time of all characters killing Pikachu if he gets a single hit in, especially on that stage so it really compensates. And as I said, most Falcon players suck at mixing up their recoveries (I know a limited recovery like Falcon's having mixups sounds absurd but yeah).
I'm interested in how you "mix it up" with Falcon lol

It wouldn't surprise me if you're right about most players being bad at recovering with Falcon, though. Most people recover poorly with nearly every character in the game tbh
 

King Funk

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#11
Lets assume they dont suck at mixing up. You are over estimating the ability to recover at all.

And saying **** like "gimp me at apex" is kinda pointless...

Falcons "easiest" time killing pikachu doesn't make up for the fact that pikachu still kills him way faster in every scenario on DL.
But then you can't judge a matchup solely on how characters kill each other.

You're assuming it's easy to grab Falcon (and then, yet another issue, most Falcons don't even use the platforms a lot on Dreamland for movement). =S

Although hey, as I said, Even and Slight Disadvantage is a choice in my chart, which means I wouldn't mind setting this matchup at a Slight Disadvantage for Falcon.
 

King Funk

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#13
I am surprised that you don't have Falcon vs. Samus as Strong Advantage for both DL/Hyrule.
I believe Samus can definitely play this matchup even though it's really hard. It's a lot about controlling the game. Falcon will take control very easily and quickly if he gets Samus in the air. After that it's all about reading her trajectory and avoiding getting hit by dair. But with a smart use of the bombs, up-b and good spacing Samus can make it quite hard for Falcon to take that control which is why I think this matchup is only +2/60-40 in favor of Falcon (Advantage).
 
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#14
I'm really not sure about Falcon vs. Samus. It seems like in theory it should be terrible but I always do ok in the matchup, though it feels like people just fall into my crap and end up off the stage.
 

SuPeRbOoM

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#15
Samus vs Falcon is horrible for Samus, especially Hyrule. Basically Samus has to chip at Falcon for a bit before she can start anything devestating, not really ideal when Falcon can maneuver past everything you can do easily.

Falcon can pretty much bait anything samus does by dancing around her for a bit and getting a uair or grab -> pivot uair or something. Upsmash really ****s up Samus, then just doing a few uairs into some baited uairs when Samus comes downor whatever move. Bair is a really good spacing tool as well. Basically Falcon outranges and outspeeds Samus in every situation.

You can shield any Samus attack and punish accordingly, but I wouldn't really suggest it due to the "random" Samus grab they may do lololol.

tl;dr Falcon rapes Samus.
 
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#16
^Agree with this. The strange thing is that if I'm just slightly better than my opponent, I do OK. But if I'm about equal I have a really hard time with Samus.
 

KoRoBeNiKi

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#17
I believe Samus can definitely play this matchup even though it's really hard. It's a lot about controlling the game. Falcon will take control very easily and quickly if he gets Samus in the air. After that it's all about reading her trajectory and avoiding getting hit by dair. But with a smart use of the bombs, up-b and good spacing Samus can make it quite hard for Falcon to take that control which is why I think this matchup is only +2/60-40 in favor of Falcon (Advantage).
The issue with trying to Space..as said by boom also is that Samus is outranged by Falcon very easily. What can Samus even try to do vs a spaced falcon b-air? Up B can be DI'd out of and once samus gets hit into the air, Samus dies. Falcon has no issues forcing Samus in the air due to the grab and the b-air. I find the matchup to be easily Falcon's best matchup.

Also, I consider matchups which are "really hard"/ require basically perfect spacing 65-35/70-30...I mean +3 or +2.5.
 

King Funk

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#18
I've played this matchup a bit more with Samus. Yeah......... It sucks. The only thing you can do against a Falcon that spaces bairs is dgaf and go prepare your charge shot. There's really no point in approaching Falcon as Samus. And whenever you throw out a move you must space it correctly so that he can't uair or grab you after you do it.

I'll put it as strong advantage for Falcon.

And yeah, just like any matchup where a character purely outspaces another in every possible way, Dreamland is better for Samus than Hyrule.

EDIT: I've also realized I've gotten a lot better at the Mario matchup and can actually agree now that it's even on Dreamland. I'm not really saying I'm basing the matchups on my own performances in them, but in the end I can't really deny they have somewhat of an influence.

I still have no idea why some of you guys think Falcon has better matchups on Hyrule. Just because he doesn't get gimped as hard is a really, really weak and shallow argument.
 
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#19
But not quite as weak and shallow as:

"I still have no idea why some of you guys think Falcon has better matchups on Hyrule. Just because he doesn't get gimped as hard is a really, really weak and shallow argument."

Seriously though, I don't see who is making that claim except for one post by me about the Pikachu matchup in particular.
 

King Funk

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#20
But not quite as weak and shallow as:

"I still have no idea why some of you guys think Falcon has better matchups on Hyrule. Just because he doesn't get gimped as hard is a really, really weak and shallow argument."
I have explained multiple times before AND in the opening post why I think Falcon is far better on Dreamland than Hyrule.

Seriously though, I don't see who is making that claim except for one post by me about the Pikachu matchup in particular.
Nintendude made a chart that's completely the contrary of mine. Surri thinks of the Falcon matchup as a matchup where he can easily grab and gimp the opponent on Dreamland.

I've discussed about the Pikachu matchup with Superboom on MSN and he agrees with me. The thing is, Falcon is a character that is great at shutting his opponents options on Dreamland. The platforms are completely under his control, and the opponent has very little space to... space attacks. He can **** other characters' landings on platforms significantly more than any other character in the game, he can shield pressure them if they land and shield (which also allows him to shieldpoke with usmash later on) or he can up-b them (seriously, why don't more people do that?), and if he gets a hit in, it's fantastically easy to start a combo. Keeping opponents in the air and under pressure is something Falcon EXCELS at on Dreamland. Even though that's general stuff, Pikachu is NOT immune from it.

And since you loooove to talk about consequence rather than cause, let's talk about combos. Pikachu has one of the worst weights possible: he dies early but can still be combo'd pretty hard. Don't pull me out the "you can up-b out of falcon combos" argument. That's only if the Falcon player doesn't know how to combo or is stupid/unexperienced enough to try up-b when there aren't enough frames of hitstun to do so. Saving your double jump and using dair is a much safer option, because in the vast majority of cases it will spike Pikachu outside the stage. Even if he doesn't die directly it doesn't matter because a Pikachu under the stage is a dead rat vs Falcon. There are infinite ways to combo with Falcon and Pikachu is not immune in any part of the stage from a potential 0-death.

This completely goes in par with "Pikachu's ability to gimp Falcon at 0%", Surri. Your "Pikachu kills faster" argument makes no sense whatsoever. What IS faster? This isn't Brawl. We aren't trading hits or building up damage gradually. One grab by Pikachu or one hit by Falcon can mean a stock. It doesn't matter what % it is.

Pikachu is far better on Hyrule against Falcon because for the most part, Falcon can't control it as well as he can on Dreamland. The fact there's no platforms (aside from the ones in the middle) means Pikachu can space attacks with far more ease. He doesn't really have to be afraid to land on a platform anymore and he can weave in and out of Falcon's options with ease. And when Falcon starts a combo from 0% on the center part, it will probably not even kill unless you manage to use the middle platforms. Pikachu doesn't lose much of his gimping ability. If in order to reduce Pikachu's gimping ability, Falcon stays in the center part of the stage, he'll usually have the problem of being outspaced and not being able to kill with a combo from 0%. If he stays in the green house, Pikachu is far superior at using the green house. Pikachu has better wall combos or, with a proper and well executed setup, he can easily throw against the ceiling of the house -> regrab -> throw offstage -> gimp.

TL;DR -> Falcon OWNS Dreamland, and can't perform as well vs Pikachu on a stage he doesn't OWN.
 
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#22
^Not the usual reply to every paragraph?

I agree completely with King Funk. I think the match-up is only slightly better on Dreamland, but better nonetheless.

:phone:
 
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#25
Have I ever done that



in the backroom?

It's not really the best environment for point by point replies.
Maybe not, but you usually do that in the main forum in response to long posts opposing you. My post is not a good example >_>

@The Yoshi match-up... This is possibly the match-up I've played more than any other (from the Yoshi side). I see a lot of people saying it's near even, but honestly, I think that's overrating Yoshi a bit. I'll elaborate when I'm back from Canada and not forced to type on a slow iPhone haha

:phone:
 

KoRoBeNiKi

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#26
Yoshi vs Falcon:
Dreamland is an Advantage for Falcon. Hyrule is a slight advantage for Falcon or even. Overall it is probably the Ye olde non-used matchup ratio of 55-45, I mean small advantage.

For the reasoning on Dreamland, I believe I don't need to reiterate what n64 players have said about Falcon on Dreamland. In Short, Yoshi has issues keeping up with Falcon on Dreamland and the platforms overall benefit quicker characters more (as well as allowing falcon to avoid u-tilts and use the platforms to go for b-airs easier.

The main thing to say that is different for the Yoshi Falcon matchup is well Yoshi's DJCC. Yoshi has no issue edgeguarding Falcon (Falcon has slight issues edgeguarding but I believe hopping on the ledge and waiting for Yoshi to recover followed by dashing into a grab or u-airing works best. I find people going for too many U-airs as Falcon when they face me.

When Falcon notices a Yoshi being hit out of a DJCC, don't end with an up-b as it resets Yoshi's double jump (u-air and then n-air preferably.)

Falcon can b-air egg spam as well as N-air (maybe d-air as well?.) B-air is quite a good approach and Falcon can abuse Yoshi's bad roll/shield for throws. Watch for u-tilts or b-air combo starters by Yoshi. I believe Falcon can also throw to falcon punch around 25-30 (?) but Yoshi can DJCC it.
 
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