Capitalism vs Communism. Which is better?

[KingBooGengar57]

Is the more conservative albeit unequal way of government better than the much more liberal system?

Personally, capitalism is better, it hasn't exterminated millions of people over nothing. But it also doesn't promise equality the same way communism does. Then again, capitalist countries aren't ruled by dictatorial tyrants like the communist ones.

 

[StoicPhantom]

I'm honestly not even sure how I would begin answering a vs topic between two disparate systems with different goals, at least without alienating 99% of the readership, but I'll say that Capitalism is the only system that's managed to produce an existential crisis for humanity: climate change and nuclear warfare. By default, every single other system is automatically better.

As far as the millions dead memes go, Capitalism has easily managed that in all of the wars it has started and famines it has produced in countries it built its wealth off of. A decent grasp of history makes it silly to try to debate how much or how little deaths any system has caused.

As far as dictatorships go, not only has Capitalism supported dictatorships all over the world in its power struggles, but the corporations are totalitarian in design and are currently ruling various Western governments with an iron fist. This is again a pointless road to go down as we are starting to confuse politics with economics.


As far as sustainability goes, neither has so far made a good argument. Capitalism hasn't given a good answer to how it is going to achieve infinite growth with finite resources and it seems to conveniently ignore the existence of entropy altogether. Not to mention that its existence is managing to manufacture multiple threats to our species survival that will always be constant as long as Capitalism continues to exist.

Communism seems to be struggling in showing how it can bring its concepts up to scale without centralization and devolving into totalitarianism.


TBH, they're both pretty **** systems so I don't know why people are so keen on debating them as if they're the only two systems possible. Should probably start focusing that energy on what comes next.

 

[osby]

On paper? Communism. It believes in a system where everyone can benefit from common resources and all people work in jobs that are suitable to their abilities and needs. It's a very radical form of the social economy but I find it much more beneficial for the common good than capitalism's inherent apathy towards equity.

On practice? It's a trick question because there was never a large-scale modern state that operated under communism. When people talk about communist countries, they almost always talk about countries that call themselves communist but actually had state capitalism. It's not a good comparison because both sides don't have remotely even sample sizes.

Also, hate to break it to you but capitalist countries had and have dictatorships, too.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

capitalism is better, it hasn't exterminated millions of people over nothing.

Ahh yes, it didn't exterminate millions of people over nothing - it exterminated millions of people over bananas. Much better.

 

[KingBooGengar57]

Ahh yes, it didn't exterminate millions of people over nothing - it exterminated millions of people over bananas. Much better.

I can name more. Coffee, diamonds, oil, wood, basicially everything.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

I can name more. Coffee, diamonds, oil, wood, basicially everything.

Aren't you supposed to be on capitalism's side here?

 

[KingBooGengar57]

Aren't you supposed to be on capitalism's side here?

Eh, don't know, I don't live in a capitalist country. The only reason I said that was because I just thought it was better than communism. Turns out, it isn't.

 

[Geno Boost]

none i will take sharia law instead

 

[Alicorn]

Communism is a better system. Capitalism gives too much power to businesses.

The thing you have to understand about business is the goal of a business is to make profit. A system that is driven solely by economic interest is not a good a good system. I can put down high speed rail making it easier for people to travel and get to work thus boosting production in the long term for society. Or I could privatize it and make money for myself at the cost of slowing down the economic development of society.

 

[Bowser D.X]

TL;DR I used to be pretty left leaning, but now I'm much fully pro capitalism with only minor common sense regulations.

Usually at least in online spaces when you see people praise communism/socialism it's from teenagers who think it just means being able to sit around all day making art. or tankies that have somehow convinced themselves they would totally be up with the party elite and would never be sent to a work camp. And usually complaints about capitalism are more due to governments meddling in the economy or coercing with big business.

The main point of capitalism and ultimate problem with socialism is that it simply lets the economy flow naturally without trying to micro manage it; governments can barely deal with traffic let alone billions of transactions every week.

There's probably more of a debate to be had when it comes to market economies that mix in government social programs, but I still think they ultimately just hinder the economy and thus people.

 

[MasterCheef]

Communism is the Devil's work.

John 10:10 A thief comes only to steal and to kill and to destroy. I have come so that they may have life and have it in abundance.

Communism rewards evil tyrants just because they have authoritative positions. Everyone else suffers, usually by variations of mass murder and many other evils.

 

[Champion of Hyrule]

Communism is the Devil's work.

John 10:10 A thief comes only to steal and to kill and to destroy. I have come so that they may have life and have it in abundance.

Communism rewards evil tyrants just because they have authoritative positions. Everyone else suffers, usually by variations of mass murder and many other evils.

I think this takes the award for the worst argument I’ve ever seen on this site ever

 

[MasterCheef]

I think this takes the award for the worst argument I’ve ever seen on this site ever

you must be an atheist.

 

[Champion of Hyrule]

It’s not just that. Your “Communism rewards evil tyrants just because they have authoritative positions” literally perfectly describes capitalism. Some really bad people have positions of power just because they were lucky enough to be born into a wealthy family.

Also your bible verse doesn’t really have anything to do with communism. And you keep using general words like “mass evi” or “destruction”which are super broad and confusing in this context. Plus, the seperation of church and state happened years ago and so you shouldn’t rely on your personal beliefs to make a point

 

[MasterCheef]

It’s not just that. Your “Communism rewards evil tyrants just because they have authoritative positions” literally perfectly describes capitalism. Some really bad people have positions of power just because they were lucky enough to be born into a wealthy family.

Also your bible verse doesn’t really have anything to do with communism. And you keep using general words like “mass evi” or “destruction”which are super broad and confusing in this context. Plus, the seperation of church and state happened years ago and so you shouldn’t rely on your personal beliefs to make a point

I get the impression you are mistaking Fascism or __ ( where corporations control the state ) _ to pure capitalism.

Companies under a open and fair market actually have to sell a service or product or both to generate revenue.

Some really bad people have positions of power just because they were lucky enough to be born into a wealthy family. this is called nepotism.

Tyrants under both Fascism & communism control the means of production & they punish those who ( disagree / want liberty ) or are not able to produce.

Also I am not using my personal beliefs to make any point. All Communism does is ___ ( kill, _ steal _& _destroy )

 

[Swamp Sensei]

you must be an atheist.

I'm a Christian myself.

You misquoted a Bible verse and took it completely out of context.

That verse is about Jesus being the only way to salvation and not taking "shortcuts" to Heaven. With the robbers being people who try to get to Heaven in another way.

It's not about literal robbers, or any human political power.

I get the impression you are mistaking Fascism or __ ( where corporations control the state ) _ to pure capitalism.

Companies under a open and fair market actually have to sell a service or product or both to generate revenue.

Some really bad people have positions of power just because they were lucky enough to be born into a wealthy family. this is called nepotism.

Tyrants under both Fascism & communism control the means of production & they punish those who ( disagree / want liberty ) or are not able to produce.

Also I am not using my personal beliefs to make any point. All Communism does is ___ ( kill, _ steal _& _destroy )

Is this not the same as "all those communistic countries that turned to fascism aren't showing REAL communism?"

Fascism infects any and all political ideologies because fascism is caused by humanity's ever present desire to be a ********.






To prevent this from just being a drive by reply, Communism works, but with an asterisk.

It works if every party can be held accountable, which is why it works in families and small villages. There are several villages in Israel which effectively practice a form of communism and its worked for them for a long time.

Problem is, once you get past a certain threshold, it becomes dangerous. Once you get to a large town, city, state or national level, its going to be impossible to ensure there's no corruption, taking advantage of the system or blind spots. Human nature hits communism pretty hard, as it assumes everyone is gonna play fair. In reality, they won't.

Capitalism assumes people are inherently self interested, and they are, but that isn't necessarily a good thing.

Human nature just kind of ****s everything up. Utopia ain't gonna happen no matter what we try.

 

[Eremurus]

Communism is the Devil's work.

John 10:10 A thief comes only to steal and to kill and to destroy. I have come so that they may have life and have it in abundance.

Communism rewards evil tyrants just because they have authoritative positions. Everyone else suffers, usually by variations of mass murder and many other evils.

you must be an atheist.

Posts like these would never have been allowed into the Debate Hall. I wish there was a vetting process still.

 

[MasterCheef]

Posts like these would never have been allowed into the Debate Hall. I wish there was a vetting process still.

what is the debate hall?

 

[Venus of the Desert Bloom]

what is the debate hall?

A location of the site where you find yourself now. Previously, you had to earn the right to enter into this section through vetting and examples of educated and honest debate. Now a days, it’s open to the general public. Your personal attack isn’t allowed…err…wasn’t allowed in the old Debate Hall (as well as the post you quoted)

 

[MasterCheef]

A location of the site where you find yourself now. Previously, you had to earn the right to enter into this section through vetting and examples of educated and honest debate. Now a days, it’s open to the general public. Your personal attack isn’t allowed…err…wasn’t allowed in the old Debate Hall (as well as the post you quoted)

It was not an attack. what it was; a conclusion based on his misinformed opinion relative to the information provided.

Second Venus of the Desert Bloom & Swamp Sensei ; please don't assume anything not actually directly stated.

Third

It's not about literal robbers, or any human political power.

is in fact quite accurate. Jesus in John 10:1-18 is contrasting ( himself with the devil ) and ( himself with other humans. )

Capitalism assumes people are inherently self interested, and they are, but that isn't necessarily a good thing.

Usually the biggest problem individuals have with Capitalism is ( Monopolies and business cartels ) which are a microcosm of communism and Fascism respectively and should generally not be tolerated.

As far as utopia, the only real Utopia is Heaven.

Also your bible verse doesn’t really have anything to do with communism

So the reason i posted the specific verse i did John 10:10 is because ( Communism and the Devil's ) goals are 1 and the same; ( Killing, Stealing and Destroying )

 

[Venus of the Desert Bloom]

It was not an attack. what it was; a conclusion based on his misinformed opinion relative to the information provided.

Second Venus of the Desert Bloom & Swamp Sensei ; please don't assume anything not actually directly stated.

Third

is in fact quite accurate. Jesus in John 10:1-18 is contrasting ( himself with the devil ) and ( himself with other humans. )



Usually the biggest problem individuals have with Capitalism is ( Monopolies and business cartels ) which are a microcosm of communism and Fascism respectively and should generally not be tolerated.

As far as utopia, the only real Utopia is Heaven.



So the reason i posted the specific verse i did John 10:10 is because ( Communism and the Devil's ) goals are 1 and the same; ( Killing, Stealing and Destroying )

Calling someone an atheist for having a contrary opinion other than yourself without any sort of factual information is not debate. It’s an ad hominem and that is in poor debate form.

 

[MasterCheef]

Calling someone an atheist for having a contrary opinion other than yourselves without any sort of factual information is not debate. It’s an ad hominem and that is in poor debate form.

again it was a conclusion!!! also it is quite curious to me why you are not taking into consideration their first response which did not make enough sense for me to draw any other meaningful conclusion.

TO BE CLEAR. I did not call them an atheist because ( i disliked they disagreed with my position. ) I called them an atheist because i wanted a better understanding of their worldview and because it was the only logical explanation i could come up with for them giving the answer they did.

ALSO MORE IMPORTANTLY I WAS TOTALLY INSULTED AND YOU STILL HAVE NOT CALLED IT OUT YET. SO STOP PICKING ON ME.

 

[Venus of the Desert Bloom]

again it was a conclusion!!! also it is quite curious to me why you are not taking into consideration their first response which did not make enough sense for me to draw any other meaningful conclusion.

TO BE CLEAR. I did not call them an atheist because ( i disliked they disagreed with my position. ) I called them an atheist because i wanted a better understanding of their worldview and because it was the only logical explanation i could come up with for them giving the answer they did.

ALSO MORE IMPORTANTLY I WAS TOTALLY INSULTED AND YOU STILL HAVE NOT CALLED IT OUT YET. SO STOP PICKING ON ME.

I am not picking on you. In fact, I’m trying to help you in forming more constructive arguments rather than relying relies that ultimately hurt your stance. As for the post that you quoted, I mentioned that was also, again, in poor debate form. However, the issue lies that you replied to it and your reply was combative and assumptive in nature. What that was wasn’t a conclusion but a reactive negative assumption. Additionally, just because their post wasn’t entirely nice doesn’t mean that it’s right to respond likewise. What’s that saying…two wrongs don’t make a right? The more appropriate and constructive response was to use facts to support that 1) your post wasn’t the worst in the site and 2) why communist counties are largely ran by dictators. Lastly, if you were curious about someone’s political/theological leanings; it’s better not assume things of people. Ask them directly without any pretext or bias. That is of course if you are genuinely interested.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Gonna be real MasterCheef

I don't think we can continue this discussion for one main reason.

You don't understand what communism actually is. Personally I'm anti-communist myself but, I understand what it is and why people would subscribe to it.

You are under the impression that Communism is quite literally about killing people and monopolies for some odd reason. Allow me to clarify, even if the poster children of communism are the tyrannical governments of Soviet Russia and Mao's China, that's not what communism is supposed to be. In fact those two countries blatantly did the opposite of the communist manifesto.

Since we're both Christians here, let's have a small exercise in logical empathy. You say communism is all about killing, stealing and destruction, but why would so many people support a government like that? People generally aren't evil monsters, so that can't be the reason. There has to be a good reason somewhere. I'll even give you a hint, a lot of people support communism because they think it's the morally right thing to do. But why? I'll let you try and figure that part out on your own. I think some honest research would do you good.

 

[osby]

Usually the biggest problem individuals have with Capitalism is ( Monopolies and business cartels ) which are a microcosm of communism and Fascism respectively and should generally not be tolerated.

Monopolies and cartels are definitely significant problems but I wouldn't say they are the biggest gripes most people have with capitalism. I'd say colonialism and the arms industry, both of which still exist today, are much bigger problems created by capitalist economies.

Fascist regimes can also be authoritarian or totalitarian capitalist states so not sure why you're dissociating it from capitalism.

 

[Another Player]

Like is Smash Brothers, Chess, Football, Politics, and everything else it depends who you're up against. If a Smashgod like PPMD mentioned that before I did then we all knew that already.

 

[Sucumbio]

none i will take sharia law instead

Why?

OT :

I have to agree that this comparison is misleading but I think it is safe to answer if asked....

Would you rather live in the US or China?

Me I'm all for the US. But I understand the position of someone who would answer China.

 

[Geno Boost]

Why?

OT :

I have to agree that this comparison is misleading but I think it is safe to answer if asked....

Would you rather live in the US or China?

Me I'm all for the US. But I understand the position of someone who would answer China.

because the system is not built on making the poor more poor and making the rich more rich
its capable of creating a society thats more welcoming which basically value human lifes than materialism
but keep in mind it has to be done the right way

but between China and US i would choose US as you can have as the access of information and wont give you risk and your not being watched all the time if you say something or know something. this is one thing but there is more to it i think many are already aware of many horrible and stories even over the smallest things. The goal of China is basically to become number 1 at everything even if it requires abusing so much people and cause war crimes.

I spoke both to people from US and China and as I do have many friends from there and when it comes to topics about their own countries the Chinese people seems to be more afraid to talk about the bad stuff.

 

[Sucumbio]

because the system is not built on making the poor more poor and making the rich more rich
its capable of creating a society thats more welcoming which basically value human lifes than materialism
but keep in mind it has to be done the right way

Is there an example of a country or province that rules by sharia law that is the right way? I'm assuming by right way you're referring to the wrongs done in it's name like stoning women?

 

[Geno Boost]

Is there an example of a country or province that rules by sharia law that is the right way? I'm assuming by right way you're referring to the wrongs done in it's name like stoning women?

Saudi Arabia or Pakistan are a good example but I wouldn’t call them perfect.
However Punishment besides jails are rarely applied it require a context that would cause it however forgiveness is preferable and the victim is given a choice to decide in court and could demands something if he wants.

 

[SkylerOcon]

Is the more conservative albeit unequal way of government better than the much more liberal system?

Personally, capitalism is better, it hasn't exterminated millions of people over nothing. But it also doesn't promise equality the same way communism does. Then again, capitalist countries aren't ruled by dictatorial tyrants like the communist ones.

Reading through the thread, I think you should define some terms up front. "Capitalism" and "communism" tend to be interpreted in different ways, depending on who you're talking to. I have an academic background in Economics and the technical meanings of the terms - a market-based economy where private actors own and manage businesses and productive asset for capitalism and a state-controlled economy where a government controls productive assets and can directly intervene/effectively controls in anything that resembles private enterprise with a philosophical goal of eliminating social class for communism - usually are not what laypeople mean when they use the terms. Capitalism often gets confused for oligarchic systems that have significant negative externalities resulting from a negative mix of large business, wealthy individuals, and government regulators and Communism often gets confused for social democratic systems with massive safety nets, strong government regulation, and some kind of mandated worker voting rights in business. This gets even more obfuscated by Nordic countries who are without a doubt capitalist, but have large government safety nets, and often get confused for socialist countries that are some type of pathway for communism (academic communists get really irritated by this in particular). Internet discussions of this sort typically devolve into nothing because nobody is really talking about the same thing.

I will say that, unambiguously, market-based systems have proven to be the best for maximizing individual and national incomes both in the developed and developing world. So if you're approaching this from a utilitarian perspective, there's really no reason to deny that capitalism is the ideal system. Communists will usually respond to this from some kind of philosophical angle (ie: even though we can afford more and get cooler toys, we're less happy). I personally don't find this compelling, but it is really the only perspective a communist can come from that doesn't just completely deny the past century of economic development/research in the field.

The only other argument I see people really go after is that Capitalism is at fault for climate change, which doesn't hold up. It is unlikely that Communist societies would be much better about this. There's no reason to believe that, given a similar level of technological development, a Communist government would not burn just as much oil to boost living standards. After all, even these societies need to show tangible gains and maintenance of quality of life - the average person isn't going to buy into class-based philosophy if it means they deal with rolling blackouts or can only watch netflix when the sun is out or the wind is blowing and meager renewable power systems can capture sunlight. This is a pretty plain tragedy of the commons issue that is intrinsic to any type of government at our level of technology, no matter who controls the means of production.

Climate change is an obvious point where capitalists and communists/socialists should see a middle ground and give concessions to each other, if for no other reason than to solve the problem. I don't really care if it takes labor unions to get more renewable energy techs or massive government subsidies to fund research into more effective batteries/carbon recapture if it means slowing down or reversing the damage we're doing to the environment. Although I do think market systems are a pretty effective tool to fund this - areas with good solar and wind infrastructure already have 100% renewable utilities that compete with or are cheaper than traditional energy sources. But it's plain we need government action to update infrastructure across most countries, and likely international action to get the developing world off coal and lng power plants. Even if all of the US, Western Europe, and the developed regions of LatAm and Asia went fool renewable, it wouldn't offset the massive carbon emissions from the developing world.

 

[Naisora]

A location of the site where you find yourself now. Previously, you had to earn the right to enter into this section through vetting and examples of educated and honest debate. Now a days, it’s open to the general public. Your personal attack isn’t allowed…err…wasn’t allowed in the old Debate Hall (as well as the post you quoted)

Well previously there were more than 10 5 people active on this site