Can't beat competent Robin! Any tips?

Bilgoosh

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jul 31, 2014
Messages
2
#1
I can dodge his projectiles for days but I can't manage to get close enough for a short hop into Nair to start my combos...
 

Maître Luigi

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 15, 2014
Messages
94
Location
Southern California
#2
Your "moving" launchers are Tackle (both weak and hard), N-Air (either or both hits), U-Air, B-Air and grabbing. If you can short hop into any part of N-Air hitting, you can combo. And also, since Robin is a tall character, N-Air hits standing robin. Even when Robin is crouching, you can fast-fall the second hit.

As for approach, I suggest working your fox-trot and dash dance. You sacrifice speed but in return gain much more control over your direction and momentum. Remember the following though:
- Changing direction (to running): Fox-Trot -> Dash-Dance -> Dash in desired direction.
- Changing direction (to walking): Fox-Trot -> Dash-Dance -> Perfect-Pivot in desired direction.
- You can only start a Dash-Dance during the start of a Dash.
 
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BigLord

Smash Lord
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#3
Dash Dance and fox-trot? Don't think that's the key here. The problem is Robin's sideB, right? The pillar of fire?

Just jump over it. Robin doesn't have a lot of Anti-Air tools. His options are limited once you're in the air. If you mix it up (do you go behind him and bair? Do you go behind him and do nothing? Do you land immediately and dash grab? Do you do an empty jump?) she/he won't know what to do.

Oh, and obviously, if you see Robin starting to charge an electric move, just dash for him/her. He'll either have to interrupt his charge and launch it immediately (easy to dash->shield) or defend himself and roll away (harder to punish, but if you read his roll you can punish with dash attack).

Fox-trot and Dash Dance are movement options. Good movement options. But what you want to do against a stage controller like Robin is making them uncertain of what part of the stage to control. She/He can only use the tomes so many times, you know?
 

Maître Luigi

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 15, 2014
Messages
94
Location
Southern California
#4
Like any fighting game, movement is essential to maximizing the effectiveness of your game play. With a higher degree of movement you can space more effectively and reliably than just mind-gaming your opponent.

Rather risking the whiff of a grab, you could try N-Air (this is of course assuming you can react fast enough to punish your opponent when they whiff or idle charge up a move). N-Air auto-cancels on land so you can safely jab, grab or retreat afterwards. Also keep in mind, N-Air maybe lagless but it has fairly low priority.
 

BigLord

Smash Lord
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#5
If you're feeling dairing you could try a dAir too, you know. Specially when punishing a missed projectile/attack, it comes out FAST if you fastfall at the middle of the move.
 

-Fatality-

Smash Journeyman
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#6
I'm reasonably sure that Falcon wins this matchup on paper, and the reason is the neutral game.
Robin's actual run speed is pretty low, so what they have to do is try and control space with projectiles and sword attacks to prevent your speed from overwhelming them. Robin's burst range is pretty small, so take advantage of this by running to center stage and simply staying there. Dash shield is generally the best way to do this, as it stops quick lightning bursts, and dash attacks, but dash dancing and empty hops are good too. Once you're in control of center stage, keep them cornered by the ledge to smother their options and stay constantly moving to use your speed to constantly threaten a dash grab or dash attack. Basically, by being in a position where you can almost constantly represent a threat, your goal is to make them throw out moves hoping to stop your advances, which you dodge and then punish accordingly. You should generally shield early forms of the lightning thing, and spot dodge the later ones, as one eats up your shield and keeps you in place, while the other is just very powerful. You should generally jump over the fire attack, but rolling towards them can also be good if you're reflexes are fast enough and your close by, I've been able to do it on reaction to the move a few times and gentleman them during the end lag of the move.
 

M@v

Subarashii!
Joined
Oct 13, 2007
Messages
10,677
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Pittsburgh, PA
#7
I use both of these characters, so I guess I can give this a whirl.

From Falcon's end, your big advantage is your mobility. Robin's mobility compared to falcon's is relatively crap. And like every matchup, you are amazing at juggling them. Robin, like marth and lucina, has weaker options for dealing with people below them. Down air is really laggy, nair only covers their sides, and even though elwind will almost always stop you if they use it, it puts them in an even worse spot 90% of the time because they are now free falling from an even higher altitude.

That being said, Robin has a ton of options when it comes to stopping approaching and punishing you. Its really hard to approach a smart Robin head on, as they have a ton of options. As robin, I can use elthunder or higher to stop you, arcfire stops everything you have, and reverse ftilt is fast and relatively safe. More robins need to use their ftilts/dtilts more; really fast moves. Where you have watch out for Robin the most is offstage. Robin wins pretty handily offstage imo. Besides being able to projectile spam you from onstage, Robin's fair has more range than knee Im pretty sure, and Robins upair is amazing (not as good at juggling as falcons, but way stronger and an even bigger hitbox). If robins going for an upair, you have to bait it out early, because it has a good amount of end lag. Lastly, watch out for elwind spikes. If you try to go low as falcon, there's not much you can do to stop it besides timing an upair perfectly. I need to play the matchup more as falcon (The other good player here is a Robin main), but it comes down to
focusing your approaches from above or behind, and keeping robin airborne. Robin wins head on and offstage.

If I had to put a ratio on it this early, I'd say 60:40 robin's advantage. I need to see more tourney levels versions of this matchup though to be sure.
 
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Demonstormkill

Smash Apprentice
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#8
Robin main here.

You guys have the idea more or less, but you need to be conscious of Robin's defensive options. For spacing, I use mainly Nair, some ftilt (not very safe but nice if it hits) and dtilt (very safe but short range doesn't hit much). Jab is probably the easiest way to rack up damage; when pressuring Robin you should watch out for his jab combo. It's strong and fast, has two variants and we can pause between jabs to throw off a dash-in punish attempt. If you're buzzing around us in the air, we'll be looking for mainly jab or rising Uair/Fair. We kill with Bair, Uair, jab and Dsmash. Dsmash will kill by punishing rolls mainly, while Bair is the main threat to watch for. Uair obviously kills off juggles, including our dthrow setup, but can also kill even while recovering if you're at 100%+. Robin is gimpable but he also poses a serious threat offstage if you try, as his aerials hurt and Elwind spikes. The bronze sword aerials also send you off on a flat angle, so Fair and Nair are good for gimps.

Arcfire is a powerful option for Robin, but generally dangerous to throw out. We usually use it once we have a feel for how you're planning to approach so that we can predict a safe cast. If you get caught in it we can follow up with most moves, the most important being Uair, Usmash and Nosferatu to steal HP.

Charging thunder is tough for Robin in this matchup so we often settle for Elthunder (first charge), and cast it in prediction of a start-up dash to keep Falcon honest. This charges pretty quickly so it's reliably safe and if Falcon becomes less aggressive we take the opportunity to charge further. If we get Arcthunder you have to keep in mind that it's not at all safe to block, and it may become harder to find your way in as a result (your approach will probably be influenced). Robins are not very afraid to be "cornered" at the edge of the stage, especially when arcthunder is charged, as we can release it to force our way past you. If you get hit or block, we'll just back throw you offstage. Thoron is not that impressive against Falcon (feels less safe), but is still fairly useful to punish any distant lag.

I feel the matchup is in Robin's favour -- say 60:40, but to be competitive Falcons usually have to exploit their juggling potential while respecting and avoiding Robin's own Uair.
 
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