Can flare-blade with Roy/Chrom 2-frame?

[Knee Against the World]

I see people go for this all the time and have literally never seen it work once. Going into training vs Ganondorf, I can't even hit the dude while he's hanging on the ledge. Can someone clear this up for me?

 

[DTiki]

I'm pretty sure only with the charged explosion. The extent of my testing shows that the fully charged flare explosion works but takes way too long to be realistic. And the no-charge to semi-charged doesn't seem to hit below the ledge at all. What I haven't tried are the more/near full charges to try and get an explosion before the finale.

When people use this successfully in most cases, I would think they are anticipating the opponent not perfectly space/time their recovery and have some hurtbox exposed over the ledge. An execution test is what we called this in SSBM. It's intimidating charging flare, and you can snag a free kill if your opponent gets sloppy with their angle of recovery. Also forces the opponent to go way over you, or below the ledge to recover.

 

[Knee Against the World]

I'm pretty sure only with the charged explosion. The extent of my testing shows that the fully charged flare explosion works but takes way too long to be realistic. And the no-charge to semi-charged doesn't seem to hit below the ledge at all. What I haven't tried are the more/near full charges to try and get an explosion before the finale.

When people use this successfully in most cases, I would think they are anticipating the opponent not perfectly space/time their recovery and have some hurtbox exposed over the ledge. An execution test is what we called this in SSBM. It's intimidating charging flare, and you can snag a free kill if your opponent gets sloppy with their angle of recovery. Also forces the opponent to go way over you, or below the ledge to recover.

Ah, cool. I understand now. Still, it seems odd to execution test someone rather than throw out an edgeguard move versus someone who can simply snap to the edge, as opposed to Melee where your precision is so much more important.

 

[DTiki]

Unless you wanna time dair to 2-frame ledge snappers, I don't think Roy has many other tools to edgeguard on stage(see my other post on how f-smash only hits below ledge on the left side of 3-D stages. I've been messing with runoff bair to hit the ledge from behind but you still have to give up stage/recover yourself if you miss the timing. Trapping seems more effective with Roy until you can knock your opponent far enough that there is room to swat them further out form the edge. Double-jump > bair from ledge has been pretty awesome too.

 

[Knee Against the World]

Unless you wanna time dair to 2-frame ledge snappers, I don't think Roy has many other tools to edgeguard on stage(see my other post on how f-smash only hits below ledge on the left side of 3-D stages. I've been messing with runoff bair to hit the ledge from behind but you still have to give up stage/recover yourself if you miss the timing. Trapping seems more effective with Roy until you can knock your opponent far enough that there is room to swat them further out form the edge. Double-jump > bair from ledge has been pretty awesome too.

Yea, I agree with you that his options for 2-framing is trash, wish he had f-tilt like Chrom. What do you think about ledge-trumping, though?

 

[DTiki]

Trumping? Great idea that I always forget about. The new ultimate mechanics seem to encourage it but it’s always the last thing I think about when discussing ledge options lol. I see it as going two ways(in theory). Either your opponent doesn’t react and ends up somewhere off the ledge, or they DI in and end up slightly on stage. I could easily see trump > dj > aerial onstage happening or if they don’t DI, maybe drop lower and dj > bair offstage. Getup attack could be faster to punish DI on stage. Iirc you need to spend 19 frames on ledge before being able to drop > double jump.