Can anyone make 2.5 Lucario work at a tournament winning level?

[Denti]

I've mained Lucario since Project M came out and I was a feared player until the 2.5 update. Now my best combo from 0% only lead to around 60% (Aka, dash attack, up tilt, up smash, nair). Nothing else really excels above that combo, all my other combos on average stop at 35-40%(which is petty in this game). Most other characters when they get great momentum get much more. I'm just incredibly upset as I won a 2.1 project M regional defeating strongbad 6-0 and a couple other notable names as well as winning a few other tournaments. And now that the 2.5 update came out I got last place last tournament in Dallas placing 19th. I cannot make Lucario work anymore. I've been theory crafting for the last 2 weeks anytime I get a spare chance and nothing can push this character further. It makes me feel like I'm a trash player, even when I know I am not.

I was just wondering if any other fellow Lucario was placing well? Or is Lucario a dud to main? Every Lucario main I knew has dropped him with the 2.5 update.

 

[DiSQO_BuNNY]

Lol this thread. Has it really hit you that hard that you won't even work on it enough without complaining first? Lucarios not trash like you think. He's not 2.1, but he's def still good enough. But you never listen to anyone who says anything to help, you play the victim and go oh boo hoo.

Plus, you didn't get last. You got second to last. Lawlz.
So if you want lucario to work, maybe you should PUT IN WORK and stop being a crybaby sucka.
Or pick up melee top tiers.
Or like ask questions or for tips. Stuff you used to do before you became so adjusted to always winning.
I'll text you about it later.

 

[SpiderMad]

Let us cry together

 

[DiSQO_BuNNY]

Let us cry together

Nooooo don't encourage him!!

 

[SpiderMad]

Well at the least I can say magus still cares to play lucario, can't say the same for someone else http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QlEIa7PAR_w

 

[Spiffykins]

I think my Lucario might be at a tourney viable level, but I'll need to start practicing with other high level players to be sure. I've definitely got a very strong handle on the technical aspects of the character, if nothing else. Lucario's got quite a few bad match ups IMO but I think he could still win tourneys.

 

[Denti]

Lol this thread. Has it really hit you that hard that you won't even work on it enough without complaining first? Lucarios not trash like you think. He's not 2.1, but he's def still good enough. But you never listen to anyone who says anything to help, you play the victim and go oh boo hoo.

Plus, you didn't get last. You got second to last. Lawlz.
So if you want lucario to work, maybe you should PUT IN WORK and stop being a crybaby sucka.
Or pick up melee top tiers.
Or like ask questions or for tips. Stuff you used to do before you became so adjusted to always winning.
I'll text you about it later.

I put in much much more work than I let on. Everyday I run at minimum 1-2 hours of Lucario lab practicing technical stuff and thinking overall harder about how to further the character. Not to mention I keep brainstorming on new combos and set ups all the time, but none of them help much since they are too theory craft and or too technically situational. I'm not even exaggerating on the level of work I put in. Last week I dropped roughly 15-20 hours into practice total preparing for the tournament. I mean, how is it that players who JUST picked up the game this month or last month and are beating me like I'm free when I've been with PM for well over half a year.

Also I didn't place last entirely because I had a bye. I was seeded as a high level player.

It just really crushed me. I'm a top level Brawl player and I was a top level Project M player. Now no matter how hard I try my Lucario cannot push threw. After hearing everyone's suggestions and critism I worked hard a couple hours last night trying to make aura canceling effective, but it appears too situational to change my overall game. It is match up dependent and most importantly it is SDI dependent, so people can escape any combo with practice. It looks hella cool though, but flashy moves aren't the same as good moves.

I didn't make this thread for pity, because after awhile I stopped caring about how people from the smash scene treat me. I came here to see if anyone can rep Lucario good anymore. I understand you and others tell me Lucario is good but that doesn't mean anything without results.

 

[DiSQO_BuNNY]

I put in much much more work than I let on. Everyday I run at minimum 1-2 hours of Lucario lab practicing technical stuff and thinking overall harder about how to further the character. Not to mention I keep brainstorming on new combos and set ups all the time, but none of them help much since they are too theory craft and or too technically situational. I'm not even exaggerating on the level of work I put in. Last week I dropped roughly 15-20 hours into practice total preparing for the tournament. I mean, how is it that players who JUST picked up the game this month or last month and are beating me like I'm free when I've been with PM for well over half a year.

Also I didn't place last entirely because I had a bye. I was seeded as a high level player.

It just really crushed me. I'm a top level Brawl player and I was a top level Project M player. Now no matter how hard I try my Lucario cannot push threw. After hearing everyone's suggestions and critism I worked hard a couple hours last night trying to make aura canceling effective, but it appears too situational to change my overall game. It is match up dependent and most importantly it is SDI dependent, so people can escape any combo with practice. It looks hella cool though, but flashy moves aren't the same as good moves.

I didn't make this thread for pity, because after awhile I stopped caring about how people from the smash scene treat me. I came here to see if anyone can rep Lucario good anymore. I understand you and others tell me Lucario is good but that doesn't mean anything without results.

Actually.
The tier list still says gnw and ness are the worst chars based on "results", yet we have players who do great with them. Maybe you should stop focusing so hard on the character itself, and look at your own inside game.
Aura sphere canceling is definitely useful, not just flashy. It's hella flashy, but effective and not as situational as you think it is. I don't think it's the answer to your problems, but it'll help IMO.
I don't think you were really a top project M player. You're a great player overall, but the way 2.1 Lucario was built carried your bad habits and low knowledge of melee gameplay and telegraphed that into guaranteed 0-death/gimp combos. You haven't played enough with us to know what else there is in this character, nor have you tried asking anyone and taking the advice to heart without first telling them why it won't work.
Stop breaking down so hard and start adapting. You're acting like, and dare I say it, Dark ALSM.

 

[Denti]

Alright fine. I'll accept that it's probably my overall game. I guess I'll just practice some more with you guys. But for the most part, I'm done with Project M tournaments. Waste of time and money for now.

 

[~Frozen~]

As a fellow 2.1 Lucario main, I understand that his 2.5 incarnation seems a tad...disappointing. However, it really has opened my eyes up to some new things about him that I would've never used in 2.1, because all he really had to do was dash attack or hit your shield and you'll be eating 45+% in a lot of cases, which seemed a tad unbalanced imo. (Although, spacies are still more stupid, but I won't get into that now xD)

In adapting to 2.5 I happened to notice how effective his UpB cancel is in combo strings, and you can even cancel in the air from a grounded UpB, gimp opponents, and then be able to use it again to recover. And then there's the Aura Sphere Cancel which has some utility at lower percents, ex. dash attack into asc into grab, or dair to asc to usmash to any move of your choice (like said upb cancel into nair/fair)

Shame to hear you're going to leave the scene for now though. Perhaps you can give it one last shot using some of the new applications he has that 2.1 Lucario may have blinded you from.

 

[Denti]

Those are pretty good. And I do agree that 2.1 lucario did blind me from a lot of options. And Lucario against heavy fallers feels near as powerful as 2.1 Lucario. I'll still play friendlies and attend tournaments and play around with people but I don't really think I'm up for entering tournaments for now.

And I didn't know you could do it again if you did it from the ground. Great utility. And asc has hardcore use, but it feels technically impossible to do on command. If you f tilt then b reversal asc it stops them in place. Last night I was only able to get it from 0-death a few select times but I was able to dash attack, asc, jab 1, jab 2, f tilt, b reversal asc, jab 1, jab 2, f tilt, b reversal asc, ... ect. What makes it so damn hard is our opening to use combo after f ilt is VERY tight. But asc after f tilt super extends lucario, because f tilt extends him then the b reversal asc extends him more.

 

[Oracle]

Denti you can't go to zero smashfests, play no real people, and expect to do well in tournament. You haven't been to a single one of my wednesday smashfests and you barely go to sethlon's either. You need to either get on wifi or start coming to play with us, simple as that. Plenty of stuff looks good against cpus that just isn't good against real people. If you don't get experience playing a bunch of different characters then you're gonna get smashed by the ones you haven't played against in tournament. You should know that from brawl.

Also, don't come on here whining about your character not being good enough. Lucario was overpowered/facilitated unhealthy gameplay in 2.1, which is why he was nerfed. Like it or not, that was a big part of your 2.1 success. You can't play lucario even close to the same way you could in 2.1 because now you don't get rewarded as heavily for stupid stuff, so now you need to look into using lucario's other options like down b and aura sphere cancelling if you want to win. Lucario definitely has the tools to win, its just not going to be as easy as 2.1

 

[Spiffykins]

You don't need to do the first up-b from the ground to cancel into another. The OHC system lets you bypass the fact that you've already used up-b regardless. That's why u-air > up-b cancel > u-air > up-b cancel > u-air works. This is the best way to kill floaties in my opinion, but like pretty much all of Lucario's kill setups it won't work at too high %s. That might be why they reduced the knockback growth on his u-air in 2.5, now that I think about it. Anyway, you can also (ab)use this up-b trick to extend other aerial combos and tack on a LOT of damage very quickly. If you're at kill % with aura charges and your opponent has a fresh stock, this is probably the ideal way to use them.

 

[SouthernGent]

I used Lucario as a back-up in 2.1 and tried him when 2.5 came out and immediately dropped him because I kind of felt the same way. Though later I picked him up again (after I had become a better over all player) and realized that he was still good, it just took more technical skill along with being able to read opponents well to get wins.

tl;dnr

He is still good just takes technical skills and learning match-up/opponents.

 

[batistabus]

http://www.twitch.tv/62bitgaming/b/373204393

Starting at around 4:29:00 you can see Eggz doing some pretty cool stuff at a decently high-level tournament.

 

[Spiffykins]

http://www.twitch.tv/62bitgaming/b/373204393

Starting at around 4:29:00 you can see Eggz doing some pretty cool stuff at a decently high-level tournament.

This probably should have gone in the video thread but oh well. I'm a little sad he didn't take my advice about up smash > side-b, but I'm mostly happy that he did better this tournament. 4th place if i'm not mistaken!

 

[Jolteon]

usmash -> turnaround asc

explore this option.

 

[Spiffykins]

usmash -> turnaround asc

explore this option.

What for? Back airs?

 

[Jolteon]

For combos.

 

[Spiffykins]

Oh, I guess you mean so they get popped up and you're still on the ground. That should be pretty useful considering it's fixed knockback and all.

 

[Aenglaan]

Although its harder to win with Lucario, I feel he still has the potential to preform really well. Playing Lucario in 25 requires the player to be much more creative and pretend that Lucario is an entirely different character altogether. In 2.1, the player could be really aggressive and there would be a fairly low chance of getting Koed. Lucario needs to be played entirely differently for him to be successful.

 

[Oro?!]

"aggressive" More like dash attack empty space because it was safe on whiff, and led to free SideBs on shield and hit.

 

[Peach Masta]

2.5 lucario is hella broken still, you all suck

-eggz

 

[SpiderMad]

2.5 lucario is hella broken still, you all suck

-eggz

I thought he got pissed at Bladewise for beating him with Diddy while he said he was a better player or something (implying his character now sucks, or Diddys just mega hella broken)

 

[Dinowulf]

Although its harder to win with Lucario, I feel he still has the potential to preform really well. Playing Lucario in 25 requires the player to be much more creative and pretend that Lucario is an entirely different character altogether. In 2.1, the player could be really aggressive and there would be a fairly low chance of getting Koed. Lucario needs to be played entirely differently for him to be successful.

I love how lucario plays. I just picked him up about a week and a half ago (Starting Project M at the same time) and i enjoy fighting with him.

 

[Eggz]

I thought he got pissed at Bladewise for beating him with Diddy while he said he was a better player or something (implying his character now sucks, or Diddys just mega hella broken)

Lol bladewise and I say that kind of **** jokingly to each other every time we beat one another. I don't think I've sincerely johnned like a little ***** ever

 

[SpiderMad]

Lol bladewise and I say that kind of **** jokingly to each other every time we beat one another. I don't think I've sincerely johnned like a little ***** ever

Why do u think Lucario is still good

 

[ClinkStryphart]

Even though I don't really have much tourney experience myself I can say I felt the same thing you feel about Lucario from 2.1 vs 2.5. I do play with a friend of mine who wins local small store tourneys and play the game basically every monday. But overall all I can say about 2.5 Lucario is practice practice practice against people. The major thing that bothered me was his Airthrow timing change. I can still hit it sometimes but I'm doing better now at the timing of the move. Again just practice with Lucario learn timings. Atleast to me thats how Lucario feels to me. Similiar to 2.1 but different timings with combo strings and airsideB(Airthrow).

 

[Tero.]

I do think Lucario can be still quite good.
Looking at 2.1 he is obv way worse but we have to keep in mind that his combos are probably still better and way more guaranted than they are for anyone else.

Tho there are a few things i think Lucario is missing:

A good kill move that he can just throw out (like Fox Bair/uair, Sheik Fair)
A good approaching option so he does not have to rely on dash attack only (thinking of spacie nair/dair)
A safe onstage edgeguarding Tool (Marth dtilt, Sheik DSmash, ledgehop Bair, spacie ledgehop Bair, Sonic ftilt). I think Fsmash is what is comming close to this, but not useful if they are sweetspotting

 

[Eggz]

Why do u think Lucario is still good

I have received divine mandate to preach the word of the filth god, and so he has spoken and so shall it be

 

[Phaiyte]

Does anyone else yet realize that you don't have to approach anyone with 2.1 Lucario, and in fact it's quite incendiary for yourself in a few matches?

 

[sneakytako]

Canceling upair from upsmash into extreme speed and using a charge to cancel into nair/fair/upair creates some weird combos, I'm not sure how SDI will effect these types of combos though.

Ex 1. dash atk > uptilt > Upsmash > upair > Up-b > Upair
Ex 2. dash atk > uptilt > Upsmash > upair > Up-b > Fair > Aura Sphere

 

[Strong Badam]

2.6 lucario tho

 

[Spiffykins]

2.6 lucario tho

We'll see, SB. We'll see.

Also, I guess the question posed in this thread has been answered by now. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure 2.5 Lucario never won any tournaments.

 

[JUGGERNAUT043]

Denti you can't go to zero smashfests, play no real people, and expect to do well in tournament. You haven't been to a single one of my wednesday smashfests and you barely go to sethlon's either. You need to either get on wifi or start coming to play with us, simple as that. Plenty of stuff looks good against cpus that just isn't good against real people. If you don't get experience playing a bunch of different characters then you're gonna get smashed by the ones you haven't played against in tournament. You should know that from brawl.

Also, don't come on here whining about your character not being good enough. Lucario was overpowered/facilitated unhealthy gameplay in 2.1, which is why he was nerfed. Like it or not, that was a big part of your 2.1 success. You can't play lucario even close to the same way you could in 2.1 because now you don't get rewarded as heavily for stupid stuff, so now you need to look into using lucario's other options like down b and aura sphere cancelling if you want to win. Lucario definitely has the tools to win, its just not going to be as easy as 2.1[/qu
I agree lucario had overpowered obnoxious tools in 2.1 and needed to be nerfed, but to the exstent that he cant get kills till around 135% or more using conventional smash attacks( because lets face it the supers are not that super) and 2 things to tack on 1. to tell somone to pick a melee high tier because their character is blatantly flawed kinda defeats the whole point of project m and 2. any talks about bs tools or tactics or stupid combos or overpowering moves ect ect should go right out the window because dear old fox and falco were designed that way and brought back that way and havent been touched with a ounce of nerf to change their in ur face abilities, till they are actually worked to be inline i believe no character needs a nerf unless its a rapid pummel

 

[Tero.]

2.6 lucario feels way better
back to playing him again

 

[Spiffykins]

2.6 lucario feels way better
back to playing him again

Everyone keeps saying this but I don't see it. He honestly feels worse to me. Pretty sure I'm going to drop this character unless he gets a major overhaul at some point. I need that changelist to be sure my opinion on 2.6 Lucario is valid, though.

 

[Giygacoal]

Everyone keeps saying this but I don't see it. He honestly feels worse to me. Pretty sure I'm going to drop this character unless he gets a major overhaul at some point. I need that changelist to be sure my opinion on 2.6 Lucario is valid, though.

You think so? It's been confirmed on SMYN that he does have improvements. At the very least, his sidetilt looks a lot cooler...

 

[Spiffykins]

You think so? It's been confirmed on SMYN that he does have improvements. At the very least, his sidetilt looks a lot cooler...

A few things are better, but overall yes, I think he's worse. At the very least, things were tinkered with that did not need to be tinkered with, and the buffs that he (imho) needed the most were not given. I'll check out that SMYN.

 

[Giygacoal]

A few things are better, but overall yes, I think he's worse. At the very least, things were tinkered with that did not need to be tinkered with, and the buffs that he (imho) needed the most were not given. I'll check out that SMYN.

Don't waste your time. The guy (think it was Shadic) just said Lucario got improvements... That's it. Lol. Still a fun podcast, though.