Can anyone explain how Ally won?

[Sleek Media]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3C9Mnhvlac

TLDW: Ally destroys Nakat's Fox, Ness, and Pikachu.

I've been a Mario main from 64 up until a few weeks ago when I realized that my Mega Man was significantly better. I even stuck it out the whole way through Brawl where he was trash tier. I gotta be honest...I've been thinking that he is low tier again. Everything about him feels completely inferior to what Luigi offers. The weak combos, lack of KO setups, poor recovery, and difficulty gimping due to the new ledge mechanics all make him feel so outclassed.

So how the hell did Ally dominate like this? I know my reverse uSmash is really bad, but aside from that, mechanically there isn't that much of a difference between what I saw in this video and what I can do. I don't understand how many of the moves hit like that tripe fSmash in the final match. Throwing something like that would just be unthinkable to me, as would challenging it. At higher levels, do they sometimes just attack recklessly or what? Help a Mario out here.

 

[HeroMystic]

Long time no see, @ Sleek Media .

So how the hell did Ally dominate like this? I know my reverse uSmash is really bad, but aside from that, mechanically there isn't that much of a difference between what I saw in this video and what I can do. I don't understand how many of the moves hit like that tripe fSmash in the final match. Throwing something like that would just be unthinkable to me, as would challenging it. At higher levels, do they sometimes just attack recklessly or what? Help a Mario out here.

The first thing you have to do is become humble. You more than likely suck in comparison to Ally, as does everyone else who frequently visit the Mario boards, including myself. The second thing to notice is we have to understand how high level Smash works before we can understand how Ally fluidly destroyed NAKAT during Set 2 of Grand Finals (Set 1 was actually extremely close).

High-level play of competitive Smash relies the most on neutrals, much like in Brawl. However, Smash 4 is bit more leveled out because the lack of hitstun cancelling allows characters to make reliable follow-ups after hit confirm. This means two things:

-Playing the neutral game is more rewarding in Smash 4.
-Avoiding getting hit is now much more important.

Both are very simple and probably things you already know, but lets keep this mind. Now watch the video again, and notice how Ally and NAKAT plays. Every movement they make is calculated with a probability of success. They either bait each other to make a poor choice that is punishable, or they make a calculated risk to 1-up their opponent. To be fair though, Ally makes a fair amount of risks, because he prefers to read his opponents and follow-up on what they do (others tend to be ridiculously safe). Thing is, he is often right. Ally is a master of figuring out his opponent's movement and capitalizing on it.

You can see how Set 1 boils down. First few matches, Ally makes a fair amount of risks, but upon Game 4&5, Ally starts playing a lot safer, especially in Game 5 against Ness where he knew taking damage would bring him closer and closer to being KO'd by Ness' B-throw.

So if Set 1 was so close, why did Set 2 looked like pure domination from Ally? It's actually quite simple. NAKAT lost focus. He truly believed he was going to win Game 5 until Ally caped him, and then he was demoralized. NAKAT's movements became worse, and his reaction time became faulty. Ally was still energized and ready to win, so he retained focus and bopped NAKAT, even with that silly F-Smash that honestly should not have landed. But by that point NAKAT already lost. If you analyze the video, it's clear as day. He played the neutral game much more poorly and Mario's follow-ups are very solid. If you play poorly against Mario, especially when controlled by someone as good as Ally, he will punish every bad movement option and knock you out.

As far as Mario himself? There's no grand mystery to winning with him. You just have to understand him inside and out, and play well with him. Keep in mind, the Mario boards is the only area that believes Mario is bad.

 

[Sleek Media]

I understand and agree that Nakat lost focus in the second half, and that was certainly a huge part of it, but it's still worth discussing.

I don't think "be humble, Ally is better" is going to improve anyone's technique on this board. That's not even our attitude. It's the opposite - nobody here has any confidence in Mario despite specializing in him, and we have a good reason to feel that way: we're winning more with other characters. For there to be this huge disconnect between how the Mario board feels and the rest of the boards feel...there's something wrong. Either we're missing something big, or Ally just really had everyone's number at that tournament. I find the latter harder to believe, so lets get active and start figuring this out.

Dunno about the rest of you, but uThrow->dAir->upB was new to me. Maybe we don't realize how Mario's setups work? At first, everyone thought Luigi was bad because they were looking for dThrow->uTilt. Ally still tried to read uSmash often, so he hasn't found a reliable KO setup. He got close ending combos with upB, but didn't actually get the KO. Could dAir secure the KO in those combos? Once customs are on, would uAir->upB KOs become a thing?

I wonder how he would deal with a character like Captain Falcon, where both his grab and aerials are outranged. Speedsters are definitely the biggest threat IMO.

 

[HeroMystic]

My notion for being humble is just in response to "mechanically, there isn't much difference between what Ally does and what I do", I didn't mean to make it sound like you were showing arrogance, just that there is still a lot to learn to refine our playstyles with Mario.

The Mario boards are at a mix, honestly. @ A2ZOMG believes Mario is bottom tier and @ BSP believes he's bad. @ Inferno3044 and @ BoTastic! says he's good. I personally believe he's top 20 and I'm confident enough to go solo with him.

Top level players believes he's Top 15 at the very least (ZeRo believes he's top 10 last I checked, Ally initially thought Top 5 but changed his mind later).

The disconnect between us Mario mains and the rest of the players is usually because he was generally nerfed from Brawl (RIP Cape ATs) so there's generally less options he can use, and the kill setups he had from Jab Cancels are no longer present. D-Smash is also poor in this game which sucks because it was pretty good to snatch KOs with in Brawl. IIRC, the DK boards feel the same way about DK as well since he lost a lot from Brawl as well. Hell, even the ZSS boards feel the same and she's top tier. So we're not the only ones going through this, but for some reason we're taking it the hardest.

Dunno about the rest of you, but uThrow->dAir->upB was new to me. Maybe we don't realize how Mario's setups work? At first, everyone thought Luigi was bad because they were looking for dThrow->uTilt. Ally still tried to read uSmash often, so he hasn't found a reliable KO setup. He got close ending combos with upB, but didn't actually get the KO. Could dAir secure the KO in those combos? Once customs are on, would uAir->upB KOs become a thing?

The combo in question was discovered by @TTTTTsd during the 3DS days. In fact, anything involving D-air was discovered by him. So it isn't new, but it's the first time we've seen it in tournament play.

The new thing to me was Ally's use of D-tilt, proving it's actually very valuable to use up close. D-tilt > Grab is a good way to get hit confirm.

Sourspot N-air/B-air > U-Smash is guaranteed if the opponent doesn't tech on the ground. D-throw > Charged U-Smash is a great frame trap vs fast-fallers, and FF-U-air(autocancel) > F-air is a true combo.

Up-B isn't going to kill anyone through a combo unless it's on a very high platform like Battlefield and Duck Hunt. Mario's aerials have too much KBG to do this, but since Mario's jump height is pretty good, he can kill with Up-B after launching his opponent.

I wonder how he would deal with a character like Captain Falcon, where both his grab and aerials are outranged. Speedsters are definitely the biggest threat IMO.

I play against a Captain Falcon regularly: He's not difficult at all. Captain Falcon can combo and juggle Mario, but Mario does it even harder, and Falcon has the most cape-able recovery ever.

 

[A2ZOMG]

@ HeroMystic , there isn't a bottom tier in this game. Mario realistically is comparable in power to the bottom half of the cast in this game. Don't try to pretend I think otherwise, and while I've said before he's bottom 5, this was mostly PRE-PATCH when he was in fact probably a tier below most of the cast due to DI mechanics further screwing him over (seriously, pre-patch bottom tier was basically Mario, Doc, and Olimar...no joke). I still think he's mediocre, and mostly has unfavorable matchups, but it would be in your best interest to not take what I say out of context.

And really, the reason why Ally won is simple. His mechanics, reactions, and ability to remain calm under pressure are simply world class. A lot of people especially don't have his reaction time, which makes his spacing something that can't be replicated.

 

[HeroMystic]

I see no reason to pretend about anything you think you do. You're so dead set on telling the world how bad Mario is that every new user who walks in here leaves with the perception that Mario is terrible. Don't get me started on the Competitive Impressions Thread.

 

[A2ZOMG]

If Mario was actually good (he's not, because he doesn't exactly do great against the top tiers, and also has a ton of slightly unfavorable matchups everywhere), that would be the message I would spread. And sure, Ally's winning with Mario. None of that surprises me...given he's probably the best player in the world for this game. Mario's not the only not top tier character who sees good results this early on to be frank. Which is fine, given we know Smash 4 is one of the most balanced Smash Bros games competitively right now.

It's really not unlike like how Isai could basically dominate the competitive Smash 64 scene with whatever the hell he wanted. The game is pretty balanced competitively...but nobody else had fundamentals that came close to what Isai had. Mango to a lesser extent tried to do that to some success (we know how crazy his Mario is, and just in general how unrealistically good his reactions/spacing are), but eventually stuck with Falco/Jiggs when things mattered given Melee is not very well balanced.

You want to make this personal now before maintaining the discussion? You're being awfully mature. I came in because you tagged me, and had minor misrepresentations of my opinion. And for the record, I have no problems with telling people a character is bad. It's all a part of knowing what the character is capable of anyway.

 

[Sleek Media]

Gotta go with A2ZOMG on this one. You're out of line, HeroMystic. A2Z is allowed to voice a negative opinion on Mario, and saying that there's no mechanical difference between me and Ally is also justifiable. It's not like we're talking about Mega Man or Pac-Man, who both have difficult character specific ATs that must be practiced. We're talking about MARIO here. He doesn't even have the cape ATs from Brawl anymore. Do you think pivot grabbing is something only national level competitors can do?

I don't know much about Ally or how he ranks, but I do agree that Mario's matchups should be unfavorable in most cases. There are so many characters that do what he does better, and with fewer weaknesses. Even so, if something like uThrow->dAir->upB3 were reliable, then he might be able to get into the upper third like Luigi. Also, after seeing just how little Ally relied on fireballs, I'm wondering if there's a use for B3 after all.

For that video though, I'm guessing it's just "Level 3" - knowledge of player matchup. There's no way Ally was making some of those pivot grabs on reaction. I guess he's just so experienced that he has a good idea how other tournament players will react. In the end, I guess all you can learn from this a few new combos and to keep moving.

 

[HeroMystic]

I don't find that Mario is unfavorable in most cases, but we'll have to see how the metagame develops. I'd rather improve instead of hypothesize about how bad he is.

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

I think Mario is great. :/

The fact that I can get 60% damage off of one read where where in Brawl I used to get 20% makes me incredibly happy. The fact that I have a ground game that I can rely on for guaranteed damage also makes me happy. I approve of Hero's mindset though. We have enough proof that a talented player can pick up this character and do extremely well with him. Therefore, the goal of any Mario player should be to reach that level. That's my goal, anyway.

Also, you can learn a lot more than simply combos from Ally's videos. I learned a lot about the inefficiencies of my own playstyle that had carried over from Brawl, and in the process have been taking strides to improve my play.

 

[Sleek Media]

Fine by me, but we gotta start coming up with some ideas.

I think Mario is great. :/

The fact that I can get 60% damage off of one read where where in Brawl I used to get 20% makes me incredibly happy. The fact that I have a ground game that I can rely on for guaranteed damage also makes me happy. I approve of Hero's mindset though. We have enough proof that a talented player can pick up this character and do extremely well with him. Therefore, the goal of any Mario player should be to reach that level. That's my goal, anyway.

Also, you can learn a lot more than simply combos from Ally's videos. I learned a lot about the inefficiencies of my own playstyle that had carried over from Brawl, and in the process have been taking strides to improve my play.

Can you be more specific about what you found to be ineffective and how you improved?

 

[BSP]

The Mario boards are at a mix, honestly. @ A2ZOMG believes Mario is bottom tier and @ BSP believes he's bad. @ Inferno3044 and @ BoTastic! says he's good. I personally believe he's top 20 and I'm confident enough to go solo with him./quote]

Changed my mind since then. Top 20 sounds ok.

Note: most of my negativity was pre patch too, where vectoring screwed Mario over a lot. I still wouldn't call him a top tier character though.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I think Mario is great. :/

The fact that I can get 60% damage off of one read where where in Brawl I used to get 20% makes me incredibly happy. The fact that I have a ground game that I can rely on for guaranteed damage also makes me happy. I approve of Hero's mindset though. We have enough proof that a talented player can pick up this character and do extremely well with him. Therefore, the goal of any Mario player should be to reach that level. That's my goal, anyway.

Also, you can learn a lot more than simply combos from Ally's videos. I learned a lot about the inefficiencies of my own playstyle that had carried over from Brawl, and in the process have been taking strides to improve my play.

I dunno about you XeroXen...but I take Mario pretty damn seriously...and he definitely does not do 60% in one read against most characters except like Ganondorf and Ike. Math doesn't add up when you factor most other characters have windows to jump out of or block Mario's strings. Against some fastfallers, you can OCCASIONALLY get that in two reads if you line up your setups at the right percents. Against most other characters, you typically need 3-4 actual reads to deal that much damage.

Brawl Mario against most characters got about 60% in two actual reads, when you factor how his U-air strings worked sooner and did more damage.

The main thing I learned from Ally's playstyle is that part of why he's so good is something that most people really just can't emulate. His reactions are way too perfect. I don't disagree with any of his decisions in-game, but I don't believe many of them are actually very practical. He doesn't do anything we don't know works. It's just his spacing is impossibly good and nobody can compete with him at waiting.

 

[-Sensei-]

I honestly feel that Mario is top 15, maybe top 10. I feel like he can contend with most characters in this game when played correctly. I was personally inspired by Ally's play in those sets and plan on using it as a mark for where I would eventually like to be.

 

[Sleek Media]

I'm still not sure of what to think about Mario, but we can say this for certain. Regardless of Ally's skill, the fact is that he succeeded the way he did. In other words, it is possible to win with Mario, at least at this stage of the meta.

We have to consider that we may have habits from Brawl which are negatively impacting our play. I did some experimentation on FG yesterday, just to try and imitate some of what Ally did offhand. It helped a little bit (many mistakes were made since I haven't practiced his style yet). I did, however, find one big help that let me beat a smart Shiek convincingly: I stopped looking at Mario completely, and only watched the opponent as closely as possible. I've been playing Mario long enough that positioning him can be done almost subconsciously, and I'm guessing its the same for most of the people on this board. It made spacing, reading, and reacting all much easier. I'm thinking that is part of the Ally magic.

 

[Inferno3044]

Hey there Sleek. From what I read in your first post, I think there are a few changes you might have not taken into account. Let me address the points you have up on why you think Mario is weak:

Weak combos - Mario actually has one of the best combo abilities in the game. He has very fast start, low cool down moves in order to keep the hits going. On top of this, he is actually quite mobile in this game and is very strong at following the opponent for tons of damage. This is something in his combo game he has over Luigi who can be quite sluggish in the air. He does do less damage in this game, but take into account that two characters that are possibly top 5 (Shiek and Pikachu) do as little as 5% per hit.

Lack of KO setups - This is true. Mario doesn't have any great setups at kill percents like Diddy dthrow or Luigi Dthrow, but he does have better kill power. Fsmash can kill as low as 85% and Usmash, Dsmash, and Bthrow can kill in the low hundreds depending on location and rage. So yeah, you gotta make a read. But that's how this game is played.

Poor recovery - Once again, I agree. Mario's recovery isn't the best. I call it mediocre at best. But the new ledge mechanic aids Mario more than hurts him. Personally, I don't find it too difficult to recover. There is a chance of getting gimped, but if you're getting gimped all the time then there's a bigger problem than the character.

Difficulty gimping due to the new ledge mechanics - I actually think this is more of a buff than a nerf. Yes it makes it harder to gimp, but Mario's tools to gimp (cape and FLUDD) are that much more dangerous. Because you can't just ledge hog for the gimp. Mario's tools shine in this.

As for comparing Mario to Luigi, I think Luigi is better. I'd put Luigi in top 10 and Mario in top 15. I see him winning many match ups in this game and being able to effectively fight top tier characters like Diddy, Shiek, and Ness.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Sheik and Pikachu are top tier because they win neutral extremely consistently, don't have glaring blind spots, and also have viable KO confirms and good negative states. Those are all things Mario can't compare to, and his damage is overall pretty bad.

Mario actually has a hell of a hard time killing anyone who resets towards the ledge constantly. He doesn't have good tools for edgeguarding low, killing with aerial moves, or pressuring the ledge. A lack of all those things simultaneously is actually a lot bigger of a deal than you're implying. It basically means if you don't have Ally's godlike reflexes in neutral, a lot of characters can force you to KO with B-throw, which unless you catch people with a gimmick read by the ledge, isn't generally killing earlier than 150%.

No you won't get gimped all the time, but most characters can definitely edgeguard Mario fairly easily. Also even though FLUDD is better in this game, it doesn't really do anything to help Mario edgeguard low. Just generally speaking, Mario's options for edgeguarding low are overall pretty bad. N-air is his best option for covering things below him, and it's fairly weak unless you sweetspot it. Then your other best option is betting on telegraphed stage spiking, which is techable. Ledge mechanics if anything also make it harder for Mario to edgeguard most characters given he has little to punish low recoveries especially without ledge invincibility abuse mechanics.

When Mario doesn't have the tools to have favorable matchups against characters like Donkey Kong, Duck Hunt, Marth, and Ganondorf, I am extremely doubtful he's anywhere close to top 15. These characters all have something in common. They beat Mario in neutral, and also have better reward than he does generally speaking.

Luigi I could see as debatably top 15, but he does have counters. Little Mac, the worst character in the game overall, actually has an extremely favorable matchup against Luigi for instance simply because Luigi's weaknesses are that specifically exploitable by him.

 

[Inferno3044]

I unignored to read your comment. Anyone that thinks Ganon beats Mario and that Little Mac is the worst character does not understand this game is not worth arguing with.

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

Please be civil, Inferno. No reason for personalish attacks.

 

[JohanPrime]

Ganon beats Mario? since when... Mario can dominate Ganon early in the match and later on it doesn't take much for Mario to edge guard Ganon's slow ass air game. If Little Mac is the worst Overall character and he has a favorable match up against Luigi, that's something that logically doesn't make sense.

 

[Sleek Media]

Getting off topic.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Ganon beats Mario? since when... Mario can dominate Ganon early in the match and later on it doesn't take much for Mario to edge guard Ganon's slow *** air game. If Little Mac is the worst Overall character and he has a favorable match up against Luigi, that's something that logically doesn't make sense.

Firstoff, Mario has no direct answer to Ganon's D-tilt and N-air. These are fast moves that beat every attack Mario has in neutral, including Fireball approaches. Especially because Mario does not have very strong forward facing punish options, Mario usually has to trick his way in with fancy dodges (which sometimes lose to Ganon's lingering N-air for that matter), which also opens him up to U-smash and Flame Choke. Ganon's Flame Choke combos into D-tilt/F-tilt do like 26%, D-throw DA does 22%, and all of these combos put Mario in terrible positions where he's liable to eat anywhere from a total of 40-60% off basically one read due to his very poor landing options. U-smash can kill at like 80% and is not very laggy, making it safe on whiff or block in the vast majority of situations.

Mario does juggle Ganon to about ~50-60% reliably, but he doesn't actually have an easy time sealing Ganon's stock. Ganondorf has a good vertical recovery, and Mario has very poor options for edgeguarding low recoveries. Most of the time offstage, Ganondorf can airdodge most things Mario throws at him, recover low to avoid FLUDD and Cape attempts, and he will make it back safely as long as he is ready to tech a stage spike (in my opinion, approximately 80% of stage spikes should be teched competitively in this game as most of them are very telegraphed). Furthermore as I've explained, Mario in general loses a lot of KO options when his opponent resets towards the ledge. This is applicable to basically everyone, and Ganon does just fine abusing this since he risks very little recovering low against Mario most of the time. Now even if Ganon isn't always in position to reach the ledge during juggles, Mario has to respect aerial wizkick, which trades with U-smash and also kills at like 80%. Mario's KO options on Ganon are never completely free or easy, especially since Ganondorf benefits significantly more than Mario from the changes to ledge mechanics.

Meanwhile, basically EVERYTHING Ganon does is a KO move. F-tilt especially is lethal in this matchup, and pivot F-tilt not only can cover a lot of Mario's approaches safely, it just often gimps Mario or puts him in a position where he can't avoid getting edgeguarded by Ganon's huge lingering N-air and F-air which are both excellent tools for edgeguarding low. Let's also keep in mind that Mario basically has no hope of outprioritizing Ganon in juggle situations, and Ganon can kill him with U-air anywhere from 90-130% depending on stage position, and a perfectly timed airdodge from Mario might not even save him from getting frame trapped by a followup N-air or U-air.

Ganondorf wins vs Mario 55/45. Mario CAN get some decent momentum through juggles, but he definitely does not win this matchup and has to work harder than Ganon to win.

This matchup I would believe is closer to 50/50 on a custom setting where Mario benefits more from Custom Cape options, Fast Fireballs, and possibly Explosive Jump Punch as opposed to Ganon's benefits from WDK in this specific matchup.

Little Mac is the worst character simply because he gets hard countered like nobody else in this game. He's a very extreme character that has some extremely bad matchups. Don't get me wrong, he has good matchups too. One of them happens to be Luigi, who is also a fairly extreme character with very specific strengths and weaknesses. I would say as a whole however Little Mac has the most unwinnable matchups in the game, and is disadvantaged to the majority of the cast, with some niche exceptions which aren't always consistent depending on stage.

Now Inferno, I'm going to bet that you have actually played with and against these characters a lot less than I have. Given you have the gall to make a personal attack against me based on your biased perception of my reputation, I will now accuse you of being a massive hypocrite that clearly depends more on theorycraft than I do to maintain your own personal status.

You know what's generally wrong with our society? People who refuse to listen and discuss perspective. You right now are being part of the problem. I'm stubborn, but I do at least try to listen to people.

 

[HeroMystic]

This is not the correct spot to discuss match-ups. Can do so here.

From this point forward, if I see anyone making personal attacks on anyone I'll be giving out infractions. I'm willing to let this thread play itself out for now, but I won't hesitate on changing my mind if this continues to degrade.

 

[Kwam$tack$]

Why do people get so surprised when mario does good in tournaments? He's one of the only fast characters that can combo effectively and rack up damage. Even if you're not doing long string combos you can dthrow to dsmash alot characters till 40% and dthrow usmash most till about 70. Marios ONLY weakness to me is his lack of kill setups and thats where the mindgames come in. I almost never have a hard time getting back to the ledge, and even though he might not be able to gimp due to ledge mechanics his offstage/edge game is pretty solid. Yeah he has some tough matchups but they only force you to bring everything out of your's and mario's arsenal. Nobody said it would be easy. I honestly think mario's top 10. In the right hands he can be top 5 easy. When he finally gets the recognition he deserves and is riding the success train I hope when I look back at the bandwagon that I dont see any of you on it

 

[A2ZOMG]

For the record...I'm not surprised at all when THE BEST PLAYER IN THE WORLD is doing well in tournaments.

And to be extremely realistic, Mario is not the only not top tier character who is getting good results under amazing players fairly early on. Right now, more of the competitive scene is dominated by players, a bit less so by characters.

 

[Inferno3044]

I theorycraft Ganon do I? What neutral does Mario just let Ganon hit you with dtilt? But I might as well share my notable Mario vs. Ganon experience:

1. I was facing my good friend Gunblade in tournament. If you watched Apex 2015, you heard him commentate. He went Ganon game 2 and I got caught by some early Ganon tricks and got killed very fast. He only took about 15% before he killed me. However, I started to zone with fireballs and pressure safely. As soon as I got in, it was free combos for days. Ganon can't break combos. Even if you try to wizard foot, I can hit you before it comes out. Easy kill off the side and then a cape gimp for the win.
2. I'm playing on NAKAT's stream with a few members of LoF. NAKAT started a charity drive to help False go to final battle in Cali. Someone on stream said they would donate $10 if False landed a warlock punch. While he struggles to land it (which he eventually does) I start talking on stream on how I think Ganon is a terrible character and how he can't do anything. Eazy, a notable player from NY, said he would donate $15 if I beat his Ganon with my Mario. I double two stocked him.

You don't even state Ganon's obvious and glaring weakness: he's extremely slow. His movement is sluggish, his start up is slow, his end lag is long, (there are a few safe moves, don't get me wrong) and he's easily punished. On the other hand, Mario is quite fast with quick start up, low cooldown and little lag. This allows Mario to focus on his strength and rush down Ganon to rack up damage very easily. You don't even mention speed and that's a huge problem.

Your number and description don't add up. You make it sound much worse than 45/55 disadvantage.

I crossed the line with the attack. You deserve an apology for that. I'm sorry. However, do not say that I've never listened to your part. I've listened countless times on what your perspective is. And I don't mean any disrespect when I say this, but I just disagree and believe you're wrong on a lot of things. But who knows? Maybe I'm the wrong one and Mario was nerfed from his already low tier form.

 

[Incendiary]

I have to side with inferno here. A2Z

Your wording makes Mario seem like the worst character on the planet. Yet he still gets a 55/45. I understand being realistic and not sugarcoating but you kinda take it too far. When a frustrated Mario main comes in here and sees those kind of posts I wonder what he/she is going to think. ALLYS STYLE IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR US TO REPLICATE. HIS READS AND SPACING IS TOO GOOD. Whatever happened to "I'm pretty sure if we practice, we can get up there with ally."

Im not sure if I'm in this board to learn some new things or to be let known that Mario is a bad character and that even with practice I just won't match ally.

To add 2 cents to this match up. Inferno said it best when he mentioned Marios superior mobility and Ganons laggy moves. Easily punished.Ganon is EASY to gimp and KO off stage. Mario has all the tools for it

Mario has to work harder... Of course.. we don't main Mario or anything.. Granted I'm not facing shiek I know I landed roughly twice as much moves as they did to get to a decent KO percentage lol

I'm really a low profile kind of person and I hate making these posts. I'm not trying to diss. I just don't agree with some of the things you say and how you say them.

 

[A2ZOMG]

@ Inferno3044 I'll move the matchup discussion to the appropriate topic. You'll hear from me soon.

I have to side with inferno here. A2Z

Your wording makes Mario seem like the worst character on the planet. Yet he still gets a 55/45. I understand being realistic and not sugarcoating but you kinda take it too far. When a frustrated Mario main comes in here and sees those kind of posts I wonder what he/she is going to think. ALLYS STYLE IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR US TO REPLICATE. HIS READS AND SPACING IS TOO GOOD. Whatever happened to "I'm pretty sure if we practice, we can get up there with ally."

Im not sure if I'm in this board to learn some new things or to be let known that Mario is a bad character and that even with practice I just won't match ally.

To add 2 cents to this match up. Inferno said it best when he mentioned Marios superior mobility and Ganons laggy moves. Easily punished.Ganon is EASY to gimp and KO off stage. Mario has all the tools for it

Mario has to work harder... Of course.. we don't main Mario or anything.. Granted I'm not facing shiek I know I landed roughly twice as much moves as they did to get to a decent KO percentage lol

I'm really a low profile kind of person and I hate making these posts. I'm not trying to diss. I just don't agree with some of the things you say and how you say them.

Part of my attitude is definitely out of resentment for feeling misled by opinions of top players who not only rarely actually help contribute organized information, but also just have flat out incorrect information...which further makes it more difficult for people to understand how to improve. And Mario was frankly really terrible pre-patch. He's less blatantly awful with DI changes, but I wouldn't consider him great, or ultimately competitively worthwhile at the end of the day even if technically he doesn't have extremely terrible matchups.

I'm pretty sure someone out there is able to do what Ally is able to do. I know for myself I'm not that player, because I simply don't have his reaction time. I don't think he seriously knows anything about Mario that I don't. But I'm not going to delude myself into believing that fighting games are fair to everyone. There's a certain point where only certain people can be truly exceptional at an art...because of what they were born with. At this point, it's not even about the character anymore.

Also, I am trying to be helpful when I say that it's not worth it for most people to emulate him. I mean...just try to understand why the stuff he does works. I mean okay, it's fine to emulate how he plays out positive states where combos and to an extent edgeguards mostly come down to raw mechanics. But that's not really how he's winning games. The stuff he does in neutral in contrast...realistically he makes a lot of risky stuff work. And trying to play neutral like Ally does is likely not going to work for most people...because most people aren't going to have both his game sense and reaction time to pull off his perfect dodges and spaced Smashes.

 

[Sleek Media]

I think that attitude is useless. If I go to Xanadu and clean house with Mario, will you just chalk it up to my exceptional reaction speed? How many players would have to succeed with the character before you change your mind and decide that it's because of skill rather than physical ability?

I actually lean towards your side of the argument that Mario is not viable competitively as a lone main, but I'm not totally convinced yet. Not everyone gets their meta handed to them on a silver platter like Diddy or Shiek. There are very few skilled Mario players, so we need to work together even more than the other boards do if we want to get anywhere. If we just take a passive attitude like: "you'd have to be the best player in the world to do this", then we have absolutely no chance. On top of the traditional meta, there is also a custom move meta which could significantly improve our chances even if it turns out that Mario really is bad in the current format. It's way too early to give up.

 

[HeroMystic]

A lot of what I've said in the Brawl forum directly applies to Mario here.

Mario is a character that relies on making openings and capitalizes on exploiting weakened traits. ... This doubly goes to Mario mains in which they require an extensive knowledge on all match-ups to know what options works and what doesn't. It is never an easy ride for Mario.

This hasn't changed at all. Mario has no broken moves (the best being U-Smash), nor does he have any crutches to rely on. As a Mario player, you have to look at every MU seriously, look at what works and what doesn't, and capitalize on any mistakes.

This is why, above anything else, what the Mario mains should work on is having a better neutral game. If Mario can consistently beat their opponents on breaking their defense and staying within their range and remain in an advantageous position, Mario will be a force to reckon with in any MU. Until then, we can do all the theorycrafting in the world, but none of it will matter until that gets better.

 

[BoTastic!]

I am still baffled on to why anyone would think Mario is bottom tier in this game.
I am also baffled on why anyone would think Mario is top tier in this game. I think Mario is SOLID. Not Great but solid. I also use ROB, Peach, and Wario along with Mario and I strongly feel that Mario has the most favorable match ups compared to those 3.
What I'm getting for the most part is that Mario has not so favorable match ups with some characters, so therefor, he is bad.

I may not be as great in theory crafting as some of you but I actually go to tournaments very often. I actually perform well (since Brawl) and try my best to share my knowledge of the character with you guys (when I actually feel like posting xD) With that being said, I am a firm believer in "actions speak much louder than words."

I am doing things with Mario than I could never do before when Brawl was around. Mario getting 60% confirmed damage from a few reads in brawl is a bit of a stretch. Brawl had no hitstun. Most characters with fast aerials could easily break out. Mario does less damage, yes, but Mario still has very good frame data and can break out some combos himself compared to other characters. My other characters can't even pressure as well as Mario can because they lack the mobility Mario has. Mario is one of the fastest characters in the game and if there's one thing Smash tiers have taught us is that the characters in the higher tiers are the ones with the superior frame data.

Pikachu and Sheik may have very strong neutral, but they still don't do a lot of damage. Aaand, their kill set ups aren't as guaranteed as people think they are. I think Diddy will forever be superior to these 2 characters. Mario may lack the neutral prowress that Pika and Sheik have but at least has formidable speed and kill power to contend with the rest of the cast. Must we forget how difficult it was to land a kill in Brawl with Mario? Especially with it's heavily dependent Neutral gameplay?

Again, I don't think Mario is great, I think he's exactly where he should have been from the beginning. Pretty well balanced and solid. I'm a guy that likes to use a lot of secondaries, so I'm with some of you that it may be tough to solo Mario. (For example, I'd much rather use Rob against Sonic than Mario.) And I still think Diddy Kong has quite of an advantage over Mario. But overall I don't think he's bad in the least, and this is because I feel he fights the higher tiered characters quite well imo like;

Falcon, Zamus, Pikachu. Luigi, Rosalina, Ness to namea few. (probably unfavorable but not a blow out. Mario is quick enough to keep up with them).

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Inferno3044]

That is a very good quote Hero and I agree with it. However, you do have to site differences in the games and meta. In brawl the game was very defensive and the strongest characters were ones that could make very good walls (MK, Olimar, Marth, etc.). In Smash 4 the meta is more based off of rushing down and winning the neutral. The strong characters are the ones that can get a hit and follow up. That's why Diddy and Shiek dominate the meta and characters like Sonic, Luigi, and Ness are also strong. Turns out that Mario is also very good at following up after his hits. So Mario's play style fitting the meta is a good sign showing potential.

The other thing you need to look at is how a character fights against the top characters and the cast. Mario gets destroyed by MK, Marth, Falco, etc. in brawl. In Smash 4, he can fight the best characters quite well. I think Mario vs. Shiek and Diddy are fairly even. Nothing worse than 6:4 in either Mario's or the opponent's advantage if that. Against the cast as a whole, Mario does well or beats most of the cast. I could make a whole list, but I don't think that's worth putting in the time. Mario still has some slight disadvantages against some top characters like Luigi and Rosalina and may even lose to some other characters like Shulk and possibly Lucina and/or Marth (not sure on those, but seems possible). But he wins against most characters as a whole.

All in all, Mario is a high tier character. He doesn't have any tricks like Bowser Jr or Greninja may have. He just gets the job done. Plain and simple.

 

[BoTastic!]

I dunno, I still haven't figured out Diddy and Sheik. lol. Those 2 are mainly the only 2 I really struggle with.

 

[Inferno3044]

Bo, off topic, but do you have skype or some messenger. I'll talk to you about those match ups on there. Don't wanna clog this.

EDIT: Honestly, I'll discuss this game with anyone who wants to talk. Hit me up yall

 

[BoTastic!]

Indeed I do. I'll be offtopic with you. lol. I'll send you a message.

 

[DunnoBro]

As a duck hunt main let me just say I'm pretty sure Mario has the advantage there. His fireballs lock the can in place, he can cape the gunmen, and his constant short hop game due to sh fireballs makes the frisbee very risky to use. DHD cannot camp mario out at all, and is forced to approach. Mario has the frame advantage when being approached and benefits way more off of up-close interactions.

I don't know how anyone can say Mario doesn't have the tools to get the advantage against duck hunt like what the hell

 

[A2ZOMG]

As a duck hunt main let me just say I'm pretty sure Mario has the advantage there. His fireballs lock the can in place, he can cape the gunmen, and his constant short hop game due to sh fireballs makes the frisbee very risky to use. DHD cannot camp mario out at all, and is forced to approach. Mario has the frame advantage when being approached and benefits way more off of up-close interactions.

I don't know how anyone can say Mario doesn't have the tools to get the advantage against duck hunt like what the hell

Disagree. Can and basically everything Duck Hunt does absorbs fireballs and then Duck Hunt is able to simply swat the Can to pressure Mario as necessary, and Mario has a very difficult time swatting the Can with his short ranged attacks meaning Mario has to approach in this matchup, and Mario is bad at approaching. Mario also can't throw out Cape safely against any of Duck Hunt's projectiles. Duck Hunt also has very good aerials and tilts that Mario does not want to have to space against, on top of the fact Duck Hunt is extremely short and virtually will never be in a position where he can't react to Mario's air approach given he basically ducks under half of what Mario does in the air unless Mario commits very hard to spacing low.

I don't honestly believe you understand the matchup.

 

[DunnoBro]

The can absorbing the fireball is actually a net gain for mario generally. Now it goes in the opposite direction and can't threaten mario. Also if DHD or the gunmen is near the can it will explode on them, so it's dangerous to stay close enough to redirect or "swat" it. And it's also incredibly easy and safe to cape gunmen, dhd will not be in range to punish you unless it's the tall one which shoots late. And even then, he has to time it right so not to get caped. This is why I don't think you understand the matchup as it's quite unique, honestly.

But I'm not going to go on a tangent about the dhd vs mario in a completely unrelated thread and point out you're debating mario loses to duck hunt with a day 1 japanese 3ds duck hunt main who has sufficient experience against Boss, and 2fast's mario and especially TKBreezy and Smash G0D at Xanadu if you count Doctor mario. (Who specifically counterpick Doctor mario against me and Guy, another duck hunt)

 

[A2ZOMG]

It's not really a problem the can goes in the opposite direction. The Fireball itself sends the can absolutely nowhere making it extremely unlikely that it will ever explode on Duck Hunt himself unless you're literally throwing a Can at point blank at a fireball, and Mario can't really approach past the can anyway in that situation either. And meanwhile Mario can't actually Cape the gunman safely if there is a can available in the first place, and he also does not want to generally speaking risk attempt caping the clay pigeon explosions either.

As I stated earlier furthermore, Mario actually really doesn't have very good tools against Duck Hunt's aerials or tilts. His ground moves aren't very good, and his aerials are unsafe in this matchup due to how short Duck Hunt is in addition to Duck Hunt's strong anti-air options. That by itself makes the matchup very difficult for Mario, and I frankly don't believe you when you argue fireballs actually are very effective against Duck Hunt's projectiles when they have a lot of commitment, don't actually send the can anywhere, and frankly aren't that rewarding in the rare cases where they actually manage to bypass Duck Hunt's projectiles.

 

[DunnoBro]

don't actually send the can anywhere

It smacks a can in the air right back down, towards duck hunt. Guess you'd need to know that to understand.