Camping Defense

[Xquirtle]

Thought I would start a discussion on this since its a personal weakness that probably many players also share. I struggle against players that camp defense. Not specifically players camping projectiles, but rather, players that refuse to try and initiate any offense. This often times includes a projectile camp, but not playing the game until your opponent messes up is not exclusive to projectiles.

What are some of your strategies for approaching and cracking a player committed to defense?

 

[Deleted member]

Good reflexes from my part, make sure to grab when they use a shield and hurt them as much as possible when they are in a spot where they can’t attack.

 

[SteadyDisciple]

As a very defensive player myself, I would say there are really 5 types of strategies that help break a good defense. I'll try to keep them all relatively short, but if there are any you feel you need more specific examples on, let me know.

#1 - Under Pressure: This method of breaking through defenses requires consistent, SAFE pressure on your opponent. Remember that all defensive options get worse the more someone uses them (shields get smaller, rolls get stale, etc.) Even if you aren't getting in damage, if you play a character that can safely throw out hit boxes and force your opponent to react without opening yourself up too much on a whiff or block, this is a viable option as it forces them to be more aggressive or slowly be whittled away. This seems to be most effective with Swordies, who have a good combination of frame data and disjoints to threaten safely.

#2 - Hook, Line, and Sinker: Rather than chipping away at an opponent's defenses, this method relies on baiting your opponent into specific actions by making yourself appear more vulnerable than you actually are. However, when they go for an "opening", they're really just walking into your trap. While an opponent may wise up eventually, you can get some serious damage in before they do. The best characters at this strategy are those that have some options with deceptive amounts of ending lag, or those with good quick burst options.

#3 - You Learned Wrong: Conditioning is the art of teaching your opponent to react to certain situations in certain ways, then punishing them for doing so predictably. If you consistently do something like Fair -> Grab, and your opponent always responds with shield -> spot dodge, that's awesome. Now you should try replacing that grab with a slightly charged smash attack, and END THEM. Characters like heavies who have more powerful punish options tend to be better at this.

#4 - On the Back Foot: An important skill for anyone trying to beat defensive players is to keep them in disadvantage as much as possible. When you do land that stray hit, be ready to capitalize on it. If there defensive neutral game is a problem, do everything in your power to stop them from returning to the neutral. Even if it means giving up a little damage, it may be worth it to keep them unsafe and in a bad position to defend. Rushdown characters are awesome at this, since they can stay in someone's face and rack up a lot of damage.

#5 - Fight Fire With Fire: You know what really defensive players are pretty bad at? Dealing damage when an opponent won't open up. If you have the lead on stocks or percentage or score or whatever, you have no obligation to engage, since the timer is now your friend. Sure, throw out some safe moves, poke with projectiles, keep them on their toes, but at the end of the day they are now the one that needs to hit you, not the other way around. Zoners and other good campers excel at this, and I don't advise using it to try and beat a defensive opponent unless you are also good on defense yourself.

Hope this helps!

 

[1FC0]

Not specifically players camping projectiles, but rather, players that refuse to try and initiate any offense. This often times includes a projectile camp, but not playing the game until your opponent messes up is not exclusive to projectiles.

Most projectiles are offense. Launching a hitbox at one's opponent counts as attacking him and is therefore offense.

 

[Xquirtle]

Most projectiles are offense. Launching a hitbox at one's opponent counts as attacking him and is therefore offense.

I don't think that changes my question, which was specific to not only including projectiles, but your point is also entirely semantics. As Pichu, I use my jolt to condition them and create offensive openings. In that sense, i'm using it purely as an offensive tool... Using projectiles to wall somebody out so that they can't hit you is a defensive play style. Obviously a projectile ability is an offensive ability in that it can deal percent??? Like great insight there! lol... Thanks for the contribution.

 

[1FC0]

I don't think that changes my question, which was specific to not only including projectiles, but your point is also entirely semantics.

It does change the meaning of your question because most projectile spammers are heavy users of offense and thus are excluded from your question.

Without proper semantics our language would be meaningless to the extend that we might as well replace it with the barks and grumbles of animals.

Smash and English are both just ways in which we express ourselves. They are both languages. A Smash game is like a debate. You send your ideas to the outside world using your character as a medium while your opponent does likewise through his respective character.The stage is the connector that connects the characters so that the expression of your ideas collides with the expression of your opponents ideas. Finally the game is to judge whose ideas are superior according to the standards which are defined by the rules of the game.

In a debate your word will be the medium of your ideas and your audience is to be the connector that let your ideas collide with those of your opponent and decide which is superior according to the rules set in their own mind.

Using faulthy language with inconsistent semantics is like missing a tech in Smash. With a missed tech in Smash your character is disconnected from your ideas because you lack the ability to properly encode your ideas in your character. With incorrect semantics likewise your words will be disconnected from your ideas.

So how do you expect to be good at the language that is Smash if you cannot even properly master the language that you (presumably) grew up with?

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

They can't camp you if you have the lead.

 

[Xquirtle]

It does change the meaning of your question because most projectile spammers are heavy users of offense and thus are excluded from your question.

Without proper semantics our language would be meaningless to the extend that we might as well replace it with the barks and grumbles of animals.

Smash and English are both just ways in which we express ourselves. They are both languages. A Smash game is like a debate. You send your ideas to the outside world using your character as a medium while your opponent does likewise through his respective character.The stage is the connector that connects the characters so that the expression of your ideas collides with the expression of your opponents ideas. Finally the game is to judge whose ideas are superior according to the standards which are defined by the rules of the game.

In a debate your word will be the medium of your ideas and your audience is to be the connector that let your ideas collide with those of your opponent and decide which is superior according to the rules set in their own mind.

Using faulthy language with inconsistent semantics is like missing a tech in Smash. With a missed tech in Smash your character is disconnected from your ideas because you lack the ability to properly encode your ideas in your character. With incorrect semantics likewise your words will be disconnected from your ideas.

So how do you expect to be good at the language that is Smash if you cannot even properly master the language that you (presumably) grew up with?

I asked for advice and what I was asking is very clear. If you cannot figure that out by the context of my question, then I don't know what to say. Please exit the thread if you are going to come after me for no reason.

 

[Sean²]

I'm assuming you're talking about something like dash dance campers who play very reactively?

My answer is, don't commit to anything. Stand somewhere that makes them feel uncomfortable but also where they can't reach you without approaching.

A lot of the time, if someone is doing this under a platform on something like Battlefield, I'll stand on the opposite platform. They won't be able to get to me without a projectile or a really obvious approach. If they then try to approach, or predict your next move, they'll whiff most of the time, or at least hit your shield when you're in a place where they can't really capitalize on it. Then you can react to their mistake and take over the pace of the game.

It's also harder to pull off if you, yourself, are using a heavy zoner. Trying to turtle against a character like the Belmonts or Megaman is a lot harder than against one that has limited projectiles.

tl;dr play their game better than they can.

The only way they can really foil this is never falling for the bait and not straying from their gameplan. Then you're in for a long game that will probably go close to time. Truthfully, I think this kind of player is extremely rare. I've personally known someone who actively tried to run, and not interact with their opponent to the extreme, to force their opponents to get frustrated and make poor decisions. Usually intentionally going for timeouts or long games in general. He would basically just dash or walk back and forth and bait whiffs - only then he would attack. It's a strange mindset to have and makes people dread playing you, but can be very effective if done correctly. It's becoming increasingly difficult to pull this off, though, as it takes a mountain of patience from the turtler, and learning offense in this game is actually easier and more beneficial than always being hyper defensive.

 

[MrFantasticGenitalThrust]

Reflectors are good vs projectile campers. More inevitability like arrows or lasers will force approaches.

 

[chipndip]

Personally, I use anti-zoning characters to deal with zoners. In my case, that's Palutena.

In other words, when someone picks someone like Rob, the Links, the Belmonts, or some REALLY spammy stuff, I use Palutena since her projectiles hit harder and she comes with some anti-zoning tools. Others in this category would be Ness, Lucas, Zelda, Mewtwo, and K. Rool if he wasn't hot garbage.

You could also play someone that's got some life in their feet and just rush them down. Hard to do online but it adds up better offline.

It does change the meaning of your question because most projectile spammers are heavy users of offense and thus are excluded from your question.

Without proper semantics our language would be meaningless to the extend that we might as well replace it with the barks and grumbles of animals.

Smash and English are both just ways in which we express ourselves. They are both languages. A Smash game is like a debate. You send your ideas to the outside world using your character as a medium while your opponent does likewise through his respective character.The stage is the connector that connects the characters so that the expression of your ideas collides with the expression of your opponents ideas. Finally the game is to judge whose ideas are superior according to the standards which are defined by the rules of the game.

In a debate your word will be the medium of your ideas and your audience is to be the connector that let your ideas collide with those of your opponent and decide which is superior according to the rules set in their own mind.

Using faulthy language with inconsistent semantics is like missing a tech in Smash. With a missed tech in Smash your character is disconnected from your ideas because you lack the ability to properly encode your ideas in your character. With incorrect semantics likewise your words will be disconnected from your ideas.

So how do you expect to be good at the language that is Smash if you cannot even properly master the language that you (presumably) grew up with?

This is grammar policing on a level that can only be achieved by a robot main.

 

[Vistra31]

You can always jump over it or run under it.

You can main Roy.

Or do the same thing they are doing.