Brawl Matchup Chart v3 C. Falcon vs. Luigi

Red Arremer

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The v2.0 MU is -2 (+2 for Luigi).
The Falcons would like to change to -1 (+1 for Luigi).
The Luigis do not desire a change.
 

teluoborg

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I'll let the other Falcons talk more since they instigated the change and it's been a long time since I last faced a legit Luigi.

Here are my thoughts on the matchup :
-Luigi wins close game. Sure Falcon can get some hits in with Jab>shield, but Luigi benefits more of that position with a better jab, fast kill moves (jab to up B is a true combo on Falcon iirc) and a throw that kills at 150-ish. Oh and he's got a Nair to interrupt jab shenanigans.
-The mid range battle is where Falcon does best, thanks to his long legs. Luigi still has some options with his Fire Ball and Bair but when the battle comes to poking he's gonna have a hard time facing Falcon's Uair, Bair and tilts.

Other than that I feel like it goes back and forth. It's Luigi's win because he will capitalize more on reads and will have an easier time killing.
 

yoshq

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Luigi does have a hard time in the mid-range, but with good spacing, he can hold his own. And the thing is, the entire game is mid-range, because once Luigi lands one hit, Falcon is at 60%. Then the rest of the stock is just finding the kill. Dash dancing and intelligent spacing can put Falcon to shame here due to his limited options for getting in.
 

BigLøu

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Not a bad matchup for falcon at all. Probably minus one due to how easily falcon can be comboed by making even the smallest mistake. SInce falcon's he can get in and out with spacing and throw in a few hits and then try to edge guard. +1 luigis favor
 

yoshq

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Not a bad matchup for falcon at all. Probably minus one due to how easily falcon can be comboed by making even the smallest mistake. SInce falcon's he can get in and out with spacing and throw in a few hits and then try to edge guard. +1 luigis favor
If Luigi doesn't crack under the pressure of a quickly moving Falcon, then Falcon can't get in.
 

teluoborg

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"Falcon can't get in"

Can you please elaborate on that ?

Because as far as range goes, Luigi doesn't have many tools except Bair and Cyclone (meh range but op burst range).
That's not enough to wall Falcon out.
Also as I said Falcon doesn't really wants to "get in", since he reaches his comfort zone when he's at tilt range he only wants to close the "long range" gap.

And besides cyclone, Luigi's mobility is sub par so yeah, is there something that I'm missing ?
 

yoshq

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"Falcon can't get in"

Can you please elaborate on that ?

Because as far as range goes, Luigi doesn't have many tools except Bair and Cyclone (meh range but op burst range).
That's not enough to wall Falcon out.
Also as I said Falcon doesn't really wants to "get in", since he reaches his comfort zone when he's at tilt range he only wants to close the "long range" gap.

And besides cyclone, Luigi's mobility is sub par so yeah, is there something that I'm missing ?
Absolutely. I'm referring mostly to a Falcon who relies on strategically weaving in and out of Luigi's range using speed and range to make him feel helpless. I suppose if Falcon is simply using his tilts to keep Luigi out, it could be a little harder.
 

teluoborg

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Alright guys let's try to wrap this up.

YoshQ do you agree that Luigi's advantage isn't that big if Falcon does not try to go in (which is what Falcons have done since the dawn of smash) ?

Anyone other Luigi have some input ?

Mink are you still alive ?
 

Red Arremer

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Well, what do you guys think?
If worst comes to worst, we would put this to a vote, but it seems the Luigi panel isn't unanimously voting to keep a -2 (BigLou expressed that it's a -1), so I dunno if it's worth doing.
 

[FBC] Papa Mink

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Sorry, i've been without internet and on top of that, the new style is messin' up my groove. I've been kinda busy with work.

I think this is still a slight disadvantage. Not a -2.
We have good mobility and a lot of our moves are relatively safe on shield.
If we're not too aggressive and we play with a defensive style there is no reason this should be a solid disadvantage imo
 

teluoborg

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Just because he doesn't shield often doesn't mean it isn't true.

We should really bring this discussion to an end soon I think, so since all the points for the 1 have been made it's all up to you yoshq (or any Luigi that hasn't spoken yet).

What are your arguments for this matchup staying at 2 ?
 

yoshq

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Luigi comboes Falcon for 50% whenever he gets a hit in. Falcon can do two hit comboes based off reads. Luigi has a projectile. Luigi can edgeguard. Falcon can kinda edgeguard, but it is very risky. Luigi can kill earlier than Falcon. Luigi outprioritizes Falcon. Falcon's approaches are weak. I just don't see it being -1
 

teluoborg

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The only thing about what you said is that Luigi has a projectile and kills earlier than Falcon, the rest is just wrong or oblivious that the contrary is true too.

"Combos" aren't SDI proof and require setups, fireball is a bad projectile that can be punished consistently thanks to Falcon's speed, Luigi is not safer than Falcon when edgeguarding and priority isn't what you think, you're probably talking about how fast Luigi's Nair and jab are.
Also Luigi's approaches are weak too and he can't force an approach unless he has the advantage.

I don't have the time to go into details but yeah, Luigi can kill earlier and has faster CQ moves but that's it.
 

Red Arremer

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I'll contact Lordy and see if he has any additional input (he brought up the change as well).
I will try to post something more insightful after I get some sleep.
 

Red Arremer

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Frankly, I feel like this discussion is leading nowhere.
Lordy isn't responding, and I don't think this discussion does more than just gracing the surface of the MU.

Since the Falcon panel is the one who proposed the change, I would either like to see more, or we'll settle on not changing the MU.
 

[FBC] Papa Mink

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I agree. But it seems like both parties are merely theorycrafting.

It reminds me of our Puff vs Bowser MU discussion.

No top puffs ever really fight top bowsers.
 

Red Arremer

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I won't finish the change until I hear at least from teluoborg (since Lordy is AWOL). I don't just wanna overrule my panelists.

Plus, Big Lou also says it's -1/+1. ~_~
 

teluoborg

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Yeah well I was not the one who wanted this change and there isn't any kind of discussion going on so yeah, I'm not really motivated to continue.

Change the ratio or don't change it, I don't care anymore.
 

[FBC] Papa Mink

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I don't think its a minus 2. IMO this is a -1. Most of our moves are save on shield, our mobility allows us to avoid early luigi combos most fatties and low tiers get hurt by. We can juggle luigi fairly well with uair strings. the projectile really isn't much of a problem in this MU. The only thing i can see weegee having on us is kill potential. Where, ours isn't godlike, but we can live to high percents and use our mobility to avoid being killed and getting slight pokes in.

I don't see how this is a strong disadvantage.
 

lordhelmet

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I haven't posted anything because I don't have a whole lot to add.

My thoughts can be summed up by:


I don't think its a minus 2. IMO this is a -1. Most of our moves are save on shield, our mobility allows us to avoid early luigi combos most fatties and low tiers get hurt by. We can juggle luigi fairly well with uair strings. the projectile really isn't much of a problem in this MU. The only thing i can see weegee having on us is kill potential. Where, ours isn't godlike, but we can live to high percents and use our mobility to avoid being killed and getting slight pokes in.

I don't see how this is a strong disadvantage.

Luigi's combos aren't even that deadly because SDI. And Jab -> Up-B doesn't work on Falcon.
 

C.J.

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Luigi's combos aren't even that deadly because SDI. And Jab -> Up-B doesn't work on Falcon.
You don't get to just say "lolSDI." Everything is SDIable- you need to provide evidence of the situations being SDI'd out of in order for it to hold weight. Otherwise Luigi panel can respond with "lol we SDI your attacks behind you at low % so the kb isn't enough to make it safe on hit and we attack you in your lag." Yes, it's more unrealistic than what you're stating, but the point behind it is that both are unsubstantiated claims so both should be held at the same level of belief. Until evidence, meaning outside of training mode and as it would apply in a real match, is given to support the claim of SDI > Luigi, that argument isn't valid and should not be counted. As the people stating it as so, the burden of proof is on you to supply the evidence.

Given that it is now necessary to accept Luigi's combos until such a time that you support evidence to the contrary, the argument that if Falcon gets in/Luigi gets in and there is a mistake from Falcon, Falcon will likely be sitting at 50-60% is now something that must be considered.

From here, we examine arguments more closely. Since you're going with quoting Mink, I'll deconstruct his:

I don't think its a minus 2. IMO this is a -1.
1) Standard opening, alrighty.

Most of our moves are save on shield,
2) Given Luigi's shield sliding nonsense, this is true for most characters. It's like saying "we hurt Snake offstage." Elaborate with details outlining exactly how and why this is more advantageous to you than it would be to other characters. Given that Luigi doesn't lose to EVERY character, he obviously has workarounds for this negative aspect of his character design. You need to talk about how you deal with Luigi's workarounds and how you gain more/less in comparison by the shieldpush. Additionally, you need to talk about the very real potential of PSing or him spot dodging your attacks that would usually hit his shield. How are you able to make it more difficult for Luigi to PS?

our mobility allows us to avoid early luigi combos most fatties and low tiers get hurt by.
3) "Marth's mobility, fair and DS makes it almost impossible for most characters to beat him."
Obviously, Marth beats everyone but MK +2

You have to elaborate A LOT here. Specific examples, frame data, the use of various stage layouts, etc. You don't get to make blanket statements without a LOT of evidence to support it. Additionally, you also fall into the biggest Marth issue atm. How easy is it to use that mobility/space perfectly vs the risk of messing up. Once you're at, say 90%, the risk of messing up is essentially dying to fsmash (note- I don't know the % so 90 was a guess). What's the risk/reward here? How about the ease of execution? If players are 90% consistent, how much reward do those 9 pokes garner you before you die on the 10th attempt?

We can juggle luigi fairly well with uair strings.
4) Talk about how your options cover his. How do you deal with downB? What if he sideBs to the ledge; how do you ledge trap his efficiently? His nair is notorious for breaking juggles, especially ones that use your body instead of a sword. How do you get around that? At what % does that risk/reward become unfavorable for Falcon? What about with both characters at lower %s? Can a trade lead to Luigi setting up a combo?

the projectile really isn't much of a problem in this MU.
5) This one is pretty easy since your overall mobility is so high and the speed of the fireball is low. The fireball working as just a projectile seems bad. You still need to discuss how to deal with it as a means of controlling space. AFAIK, it is better than Mario's as it's rarely ever unsafe on hit while Mario's fireball can be punished, on hit, from a decent range. This lends to it being a more suitable way to just control space rather than "typical" projectile usage.

The only thing i can see weegee having on us is kill potential. Where, ours isn't godlike, but we can live to high percents and use our mobility to avoid being killed and getting slight pokes in.
6) Most of the issues in this part are addressed above, so nothing really for this. I'd recommend talking about how you would kill Luigi though. Given issue #3, in your attempting to kill Luigi, you still fall prey to that "Marth issue" I mentioned. How much more difficult is it to get in for the kill in comparison to getting in with that poke? It seems notably more difficult and you would GREATLY run the risk of death or being combo'd again.

I don't see how this is a strong disadvantage.
After a suitable response to all of the above, maybe others will agree with you.

Anything less than the above (I welcome and applaud more effort given though), and the Falcon panel will not have effectively stood up to the rigor necessary in presenting a logical argument for the MU ratio to be changed.

Additionally, I looked at some of the other threads your panel is involved in. Your arguments are the exact same, every time. You NEED to start supporting yourself like I outlined if you want any hope of changing any of your ratios.
 

teluoborg

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Dayum CJ where have you been these past 6 weeks ?

Allow me to elaborate in Mink's stead.

Given that it is now necessary to accept Luigi's combos until such a time that you support evidence to the contrary, the argument that if Falcon gets in/Luigi gets in and there is a mistake from Falcon, Falcon will likely be sitting at 50-60% is now something that must be considered.
Normally it would be Luigi's role to prove that his combos are true but since we're pushing for the -1 I guess it's legitimate.
Let's take Utilt strings as an example : if the first Utilt is performed too early Falcon can simply shield the following Utilt because of his fall speed, and he can extend the threshold at which this trick works by SDIing down.
Now if that threshold is passed Falcon can SDI up and away to limit the string to 2-3 Utilts, forcing Luigi to either follow up with Uair (not guaranteed as Falcon can spam jump to footstool), wait for the juggle or let the situation reset.

So are these kind of strings avoidable ? Yes. But that doesn't mean they're useless, they can still deal a lot of damage if Falcon fails to react accordingly. Same with jab > up B, which is SDIable but can still be performed if Falcon doesn't anticipate it (frame 2 is a bit too fast to be treated on reaction).


2)What can Falcon do on shield/PS/dodge ?
Take a look at the frame data of his aerials.
The interesting part is how low the cooldown of Uair and Bair (and even Fair) are when autocanceled and how low the landing lag on Uair Bair and Nair are.
So that means that to counter PSing Falcon can vary the moment at which he does his aerial and still stay safe.
To counter dodges Falcon has lingering hitboxes or autojab to stuff them (autojab beats every spotdodge in the game save for D3's).
Conclusion : Falcon can counter Luigi's defensive options with options of varying difficulty (seriously autojab is a braindead move).
I'll also leave this here : straight from the Sheik/Falcon discussion :
-Yes Sheik can jab to interrupt Falcon's Jab>grab. Jab > Grab as Falcon is a mixup and should never be relied on as a true combo. Why it's effective tho is because Falcon has a response to pretty much anything out of jab, he has the choice between shield (beats jab attempts and reversals), continue jab sequence (beats grab attempts), vary jab sequences (messes with timing and can be really diverse) tilt/dash attack/dash grab (beats SDI out) or simply run away to reset the situation.
Jab(>jab)>SH KNEE also beats jab attempts on some characters and is GLORIOUS, but that shouldn't happen all that often lmao.
3)I'm not gonna argue with that because what Falcon has that allows him to avoid getting combo'd/Fsmash'd is his range more than his mobility.
Because that's imo the whole point of this change : Falcon can deal damage and even kill (Utilt kills at 130ish with good DI, a fresh Bair will kill earlier) without having to go in Luigi's comfort zone. And he has the mobility to run away on top of that.
As far as range goes Falcon has all of his Tilts, Bair and Uair.
Luigi has fireball Bair and that's it.

4)As far as I know, Falcon's spaced Uair outrange Nair and aerial cyclone.
Nair will outspeed it if Falcon messes his spacing and lets you get too close, and Cyclone can beat it if it's straight above Falcon, but if Falcon knows how to position himself he has the mobility to stay in the spot where Uair will be your nightmare.

5)Yes, zoning tool yes, good against Falcon when he's in the air because of its trajectory and movement speed.
But because of those same speed and trajectory Falcon can throw a hitbox or PS it easily and put Luigi at a frame disadvantage, if not have a guaranteed punish.
 

C.J.

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I don't typically spend time making posts for characters I don't play.

Anyway, obviously I'm not going to respond to any of that since, well, I don't play the character. I leave it to Yosh, concon, and biglou.

Someone message me when this gets close to resolving please/if something else is needed.
 

yoshq

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All those things said by teluoborg are situational. I don't have the patience to respond to them individually. I definitely don't feel they are grounds to warrant a change, though. I feel they are things that could be said about most matchups.

2) "Conclusion : Falcon can counter Luigi's defensive options with options of varying difficulty"

Luigi's defensive options are dangerous. Spotdodge, PS, shield are not options that are used as often as others. Speaking from the way my Luigi plays, I'm going to throw out a move to clank with and most of the time hit CF out of his move. Nair, utilt, tornado specifically. Falcon does not have Luigi's combo breaking ability.

"What can Falcon do on shield/PS/dodge ?
Take a look at the frame data of his aerials."

Oh, so you're going to go in the air to counter my defense? As Luigi, I love when characters without swords go in the air against me. I thrive on it.

3) "Because that's imo the whole point of this change : Falcon can deal damage and even kill (Utilt kills at 130ish with good DI, a fresh Bair will kill earlier) without having to go in Luigi's comfort zone."

I disagree. Falcon dealing damage is a gamble. To deal damage he has to come close to Luigi. Staying out of his comfort zone implies that Luigi is immobile, I feel. Luigi is going to be moving around and trying to assert his dominance over Falcon's comboes. I feel it is hard for Falcon to get a solid combo off.
 

teluoborg

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2)"I'm going to throw out a move to clank with and most of the time hit CF out of his move. Nair, utilt, tornado specifically."
Well I'm sorry but I'm going to ask you to be more precise in your description in order to not sound wrong : Nair cannot clank with anything that Falcon has, and neither Utilt nor cyclone deal enough damage to beat any of Falcon's move.

Also it's cool to be thinking about Utilt and stuff as defensive options, but "defending" implies that when you shield/dodge etc you're forced to do so by frame disadvantage. In these cases I don't think throwing out an Utilt works.

"As Luigi, I love when characters without swords go in the air against me. I thrive on it." Please elaborate on what you can do against Falcon's aerials that makes it so easy.


3)"Staying out of his comfort zone implies that Luigi is immobile, I feel."
No it means that Falcon has a better range and better mobility, so Falcon doesn't have to "come close".
Luigi can still zone with his fireballs, cyclone and Bair.

And why are you talking about combos ? What does it has to do with everything else ?
 

yoshq

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2)"I'm going to throw out a move to clank with and most of the time hit CF out of his move. Nair, utilt, tornado specifically."
Well I'm sorry but I'm going to ask you to be more precise in your description in order to not sound wrong : Nair cannot clank with anything that Falcon has, and neither Utilt nor cyclone deal enough damage to beat any of Falcon's move.
I'm envisioning situations at low percents where CF would hit me with an upair and to continue the combo, he would have to read that I'm going to do a nair or jump or air dodge, otherwise it's a simple one hit move and not a trap. Utilt I'm referencing because you're saying to counter Luigi's defensive options, you will do an ACed air move, to which I would respond with an utilt.

Also it's cool to be thinking about Utilt and stuff as defensive options, but "defending" implies that when you shield/dodge etc you're forced to do so by frame disadvantage. In these cases I don't think throwing out an Utilt works.
I think this is a really important point to discuss in this matchup. In that case, what frame disadvantages does Luigi have vs Falcon?

"As Luigi, I love when characters without swords go in the air against me. I thrive on it." Please elaborate on what you can do against Falcon's aerials that makes it so easy.
Bair beats all of CF's aerials. Dair beats uair with some good timing. If a nair is landed, although it doesn't really beat any of Falcon's aerials, it spells trouble for Falcon..

3)"Staying out of his comfort zone implies that Luigi is immobile, I feel."
No it means that Falcon has a better range and better mobility, so Falcon doesn't have to "come close"..
Actually, he does. His attacks are all physical, so by very definition, he has to come close. His range is not that big of a separator in the matchup, as his ranged moves have increased startup lag.

Luigi can still zone with his fireballs, cyclone and Bair.

And why are you talking about combos ? What does it has to do with everything else ?
Did you not assert that Falcon can escape from Luigi's comboes? Well, he can't. They're guaranteed. Falcon's, meanwhile, are not. Disadvantage.
 

teluoborg

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I'm envisioning situations at low percents where CF would hit me with an upair and to continue the combo, he would have to read that I'm going to do a nair or jump or air dodge, otherwise it's a simple one hit move and not a trap. Utilt I'm referencing because you're saying to counter Luigi's defensive options, you will do an ACed air move, to which I would respond with an utilt.
"Continue the combo" is not a good expression since it's false. Being forced to choose between jump, airdodge and Nair IS a trap because depending on the spacing on the move making the wrong choice means another Uair for you.

Also about that whole Utilt thing, when I was talking about AC'd aerials I was anwsering CJ's question "How are you able to make it more difficult for Luigi to PS?".
It was just meant to explain that Luigi can not consistently PS all of Falcon's "approaches" because of how he can vary the timing of his moves (aerials being taken as examples), not to say "lol Falcon can approach with aerials all day and it's safe", of course if you read an aerial and beat it with a faster move you're gonna win.

I think this is a really important point to discuss in this matchup. In that case, what frame disadvantages does Luigi have vs Falcon?
Well imagine you whiffed a Bair, or Falcon dash PS'd a fireball, those are not situations where Falcon has a guaranteed punish (though in some case a buffered Ftilt out of PS is guaranteed) but if he approaches you at that time your are forced to react quickly using your fastest options before getting hit. That's what I mean by "frame disadvantage".

Bair beats all of CF's aerials. Dair beats uair with some good timing. If a nair is landed, although it doesn't really beat any of Falcon's aerials, it spells trouble for Falcon..
Bair requires you to be facing away so it's easy for Falcon to know when he can or can not attack.
Yes Dair can beat Uair I said it before, but it requires you to be above Falcon, which is not how Falcon positions himself before Uairing. If you can get yourself into this position this is good but it means that you just forced Falcon to make a spacing mistake.
And then some more unspecific talking. What does "it spells trouble for Falcon" means ? What can Luigi do out of Nair that isn't escapable via DJ or shielding ?

Actually, he does. His attacks are all physical, so by very definition, he has to come close. His range is not that big of a separator in the matchup, as his ranged moves have increased startup lag.
While it is true that his range is not "that big of a separator in this matchup" it still exists. And as it exists it can be exploited, mainly to avoid Luigi's jab, Nair and Fsmash.
And while it also is true that Utilt has a big startup, Dtilt and Ftilt are respectively frame 11 and 8. And even if you find 11 frames to be slow, what tools does Luigi have to answer a Dtilt performed at optimal range ?

Did you not assert that Falcon can escape from Luigi's comboes? Well, he can't. They're guaranteed. Falcon's, meanwhile, are not. Disadvantage.
Well you're gonna have to add more than "he can't" to make a point, because actually it's working against you.
Falcon's few combos (First hit Nair > jab/grab/Ftilt and Grab Release > Uair) can not be SDI'd, while all your "combos" can.

And lol@"Disadvantage". Who here is arguing for even ?
 

yoshq

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"Continue the combo" is not a good expression since it's false. Being forced to choose between jump, airdodge and Nair IS a trap because depending on the spacing on the move making the wrong choice means another Uair for you.
Man, this is just straight up logic at this point. The pressure in this situation is actually on you to read the option that I pick in my head. It's like predicting a magician's trick. It's not forced if I have options.



Also about that whole Utilt thing, when I was talking about AC'd aerials I was anwsering CJ's question "How are you able to make it more difficult for Luigi to PS?".
It was just meant to explain that Luigi can not consistently PS all of Falcon's "approaches" because of how he can vary the timing of his moves (aerials being taken as examples), not to say "lol Falcon can approach with aerials all day and it's safe", of course if you read an aerial and beat it with a faster move you're gonna win.
Yeah to the last part. This is such a general point. "I can change up my moves to make it hard for you to PS."


Well imagine you whiffed a Bair, or Falcon dash PS'd a fireball, those are not situations where Falcon has a guaranteed punish (though in some case a buffered Ftilt out of PS is guaranteed) but if he approaches you at that time your are forced to react quickly using your fastest options before getting hit. That's what I mean by "frame disadvantage".
Alright. Good, so this is not a consistent advantage. Moving on.


Bair requires you to be facing away so it's easy for Falcon to know when he can or can not attack.
Yes Dair can beat Uair I said it before, but it requires you to be above Falcon, which is not how Falcon positions himself before Uairing. If you can get yourself into this position this is good but it means that you just forced Falcon to make a spacing mistake.
And then some more unspecific talking. What does "it spells trouble for Falcon" means ? What can Luigi do out of Nair that isn't escapable via DJ or shielding ?
"Bair requires you to be facing away"
Rarely do I consciously decide to walk up to a player, then turn around slowly, then jump backwards with a bair. It is most often a split second decision to moonwalk. This is not something that is "easy" to counter.
"Falcon doesn't position himself below someone to land an uair."
What? That kinda doesn't make sense. It's an up air, meant to hit characters above CF. Why wouldn't you position yourself below them? I understand it has a very prevalent forward hitbox, but, and correct me if I'm wrong, this hitbox is less safe than the upwards one.
"What spells trouble for CF?"
Whenever Luigi lands a nair on an opponent, that's go time. That's when we do the most damage. That and grabs. The opponent is in the air above us and hitstunned. We have all the options in the world.


While it is true that his range is not "that big of a separator in this matchup" it still exists. And as it exists it can be exploited, mainly to avoid Luigi's jab, Nair and Fsmash.
And while it also is true that Utilt has a big startup, Dtilt and Ftilt are respectively frame 11 and 8. And even if you find 11 frames to be slow, what tools does Luigi have to answer a Dtilt performed at optimal range ?
I agree that his range can be used to avoid Luigi's jab, nair, and fsmash. As far as what does he have to avoid Dtilt? Hmm, let's see, jump to anything?



Well you're gonna have to add more than "he can't" to make a point, because actually it's working against you.
Falcon's few combos (First hit Nair > jab/grab/Ftilt and Grab Release > Uair) can not be SDI'd, while all your "combos" can.

And lol@"Disadvantage". Who here is arguing for even ?
Luigi's dthrow to uair is a frame trap. If Falcon jumps, he gets hit. If he air dodges, Luigi can follow with a nair into more damage, or dash grab. His uptilt can be DIed out of at low percents, but can be followed by a grab when Falcon hits the ground. Falcon "can't" escape the bits of damage if Luigi makes intelligent reads. And don't you think it's a little extreme to say "all" of Luigi's comboes can be SDI'd? I think you mean to say like 1 or two of them can. Into varied comboes. Also, Luigi does not need to SDI Falcon's first hit nair to jab grab. He can nair. GR uair may be guaranteed as long as Falcon has really good timing.
 

teluoborg

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Man, this is just straight up logic at this point. The pressure in this situation is actually on you to read the option that I pick in my head. It's like predicting a magician's trick. It's not forced if I have options.
You misunderstood : you indeed have options but they are limited and counterable.
Yeah to the last part. This is such a general point. "I can change up my moves to make it hard for you to PS."
Well then we agree at least on one thing :)
"Bair requires you to be facing away"
Rarely do I consciously decide to walk up to a player, then turn around slowly, then jump backwards with a bair. It is most often a split second decision to moonwalk. This is not something that is "easy" to counter.
You missed the point that I was trying to make. I'm talking about Bair as an option, not as an approach.
"Falcon doesn't position himself below someone to land an uair."
What? That kinda doesn't make sense. It's an up air, meant to hit characters above CF. Why wouldn't you position yourself below them? I understand it has a very prevalent forward hitbox, but, and correct me if I'm wrong, this hitbox is less safe than the upwards one.
Well you're wrong. Falcon's Uair is a 180, meaning that it's optimal range is diagonally in front and above.

"What spells trouble for CF?"
Whenever Luigi lands a nair on an opponent, that's go time. That's when we do the most damage. That and grabs. The opponent is in the air above us and hitstunned. We have all the options in the world.
And again you are incapable to be specific. "All the options in the world", "go time" "the most damage". I can say the same for Falcon after he lands a Dthrow.
As far as what does he have to avoid Dtilt? Hmm, let's see, jump to anything?
No. Your jump squat animation is 6 frames.
Luigi's dthrow to uair is a frame trap. If Falcon jumps, he gets hit. If he air dodges, Luigi can follow with a nair into more damage, or dash grab. His uptilt can be DIed out of at low percents, but can be followed by a grab when Falcon hits the ground. Falcon "can't" escape the bits of damage if Luigi makes intelligent reads. And don't you think it's a little extreme to say "all" of Luigi's comboes can be SDI'd? I think you mean to say like 1 or two of them can. Into varied comboes. Also, Luigi does not need to SDI Falcon's first hit nair to jab grab. He can nair. GR uair may be guaranteed as long as Falcon has really good timing.
Important parts bolded in red.
No character can escape damage from anyone if the guy attacking makes the reads, it's true for Luigi on Falcon, but also for Falcon on Luigi or Ganon on MK. Being able to capitalize on a read is a thing any character in the game can do.

Now about Luigi being able to Nair between FH Nair and jab/grab I seriously recommend you to go play the matchup before spouting nonsense. Nair might be fast but nothing comes out fast enough to interrupt a true combo. Heck even Marth can't up B Nair to grab. Same for GR Uair, we aren't arguing the skill of the Falcon, it's a fact.
And the difference between these two combos and Luigi's is that neither first hit Nair or grab release have a SDI multiplier hence why I oppose them to Luigi's movestrings.
 

yoshq

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I'm done with the discussion. You guys can make the ruling based on the evidence given. My position still stands at -2.

ConCon doesn't care about the matchups, so he's not going to argue. Unless any other Luigi has input, I think our side is done.
 

teluoborg

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Well since it doesn't look like anyone else wants to argue I guess this discussion will have to be resolved by a third party.

Is everyone ok with that ?
 
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