Byleth Gameplay & Moveset

[Teeb147]

We only have the trailer and Sakurai explaining the moveset, but thought to at least post them for people who didn't watch the direct, as well as discuss the moveset.

Trailer:

Character explanation and moveset

 

[HenryXLII]

I will be comparing Byleth to Robin as Robin instantly came to mind when I heard Sakruai mention that Byleth was going to be slow. This alone has me skeptical of the character's viability, as while their aerials look good, they do not look nearly as good as Robin's. Not to mention that their kit seems to lack the same ledge trap shenanigans that help Robin stand out.

I think the most interesting thing about Byleth is by far their up B. It is certainly the most flashy move in their arsenal, and it gives them the unique ability to spike opponents who are above them. Tethers have a history of being above average in the recovery department, and the spike could make it risky to edge-guard Byleth considering that it could lose you a stock.

On stage, however, the move has the potential to be one of their best moves, but also one of their worst. It all depends on how powerful the meteor is. If the opponent bounces high, than Byleth is in an incredibly unique position to combo them and maybe even take an early stock, if the bounce lacks impact than Byleth would have just put themselves in a horrendous disadvantage state.

Down B seems roughly as useful as Warlock punch, though it does have much better range. Side B could be good for ledge trapping and edge guarding but seems somewhat unreliable. Combine this with the slow speed, and slow looking normals, and you have a character that is looking more flashy than practical. As a Robin player, this is something I am used to, and I am excited about the character. I just don't expect them to make too big of a splash in the competitive scene.

 

[Teeb147]

I'm somewhat concerned about the slowness of this character as well, but bare in mind this is a character that's meant to outrange, and reading others' movements well can make it hard to get in. I'm sure they don't want it to be a bad character, so I hope there's good stuff we to uncover.

I still think this character might struggle against fast melee characters. especially small ones like pichu. I wonder if nair has a lower hitbox large enough to be a good out of shield option.

I'm still going to try to master the character and see what the full potential is

 

[HenryXLII]

I'm still going to try to master the character and see what the full potential is

Same here! My two favorite characters are Robin and Joker, I love Joker because of the Up B combos, and I love decimating people with Thoron. Byleth has two VERY similar things in their kit, and that immediately piques my interest in them. Plus I just love Three Houses in general!

 

[Teeb147]

At around the 29 mins mark of the second video, Byleth smashes the shield with a down air or down b. That could be very useful.

 

[HenryXLII]

At around the 29 mins mark of the second video, Byleth smashes the shield with a down air or down b. That could be very useful.

It looks like it was down B. If barley charged up and one shot the shield at roughly 75% I would guess. This will likely be very unsafe, but certainly adds a utility to the move, especially since it can drop through platforms.

 

[DrKatz]

I’m not super optimistic about his viability. But he reminds me of Smash 4 Corrin, who was an incredibly strong character at the time (who I also happen to main).

At any rate, I’ll certainly be picking him up. I’ve played Ike, Corrin, and Shulk across the games - so he’ll likely fit my playstyle well. Hope he’s viable as most DLC are pretty strong or buffed to be strong in each game.

 

[Teeb147]

It looks like it was down B. If barley charged up and one shot the shield at roughly 75% I would guess. This will likely be very unsafe, but certainly adds a utility to the move, especially since it can drop through platforms.

Even if it's unsafe, it's very useful because they might dodge roll instead of shield the aerial attacks, meaning you get that ranged distance. Probably worth throwing out to intimidate.

I’m not super optimistic about his viability. But he reminds me of Smash 4 Corrin, who was an incredibly strong character at the time (who I also happen to main).

At any rate, I’ll certainly be picking him up. I’ve played Ike, Corrin, and Shulk across the games - so he’ll likely fit my playstyle well. Hope he’s viable as most DLC are pretty strong or buffed to be strong in each game.

Basically can only hope they're decent 2 weeks to find out a lot more .

 

[Doughnutz]

It looks like it was down B. If barley charged up and one shot the shield at roughly 75% I would guess. This will likely be very unsafe, but certainly adds a utility to the move, especially since it can drop through platforms.

That was a down air

 

[Arrei]

It looks like it was down B. If barley charged up and one shot the shield at roughly 75% I would guess. This will likely be very unsafe, but certainly adds a utility to the move, especially since it can drop through platforms.

It was definitely Dair, and I don't think we could tell if it dealt any extra shield damage - the CPU Marth had held its shield for quite a long time, and Dair deals 19 damage as we saw when they showed it off, so it seems likely it simply broke the shield through raw damage.

It appeared like down special is a full commitment when used from its comparison to Falcon Punch with about a full second of startup, and I feel like they would have pointed out if it had any utility as a shield buster, so I would not expect to see much utility from it besides calling out and armoring through certain incredibly-telegraphed moves.

 

[Teeb147]

It was definitely Dair, and I don't think we could tell if it dealt any extra shield damage - the CPU Marth had held its shield for quite a long time, and Dair deals 19 damage as we saw when they showed it off, so it seems likely it simply broke the shield through raw damage.

It appeared like down special is a full commitment when used from its comparison to Falcon Punch with about a full second of startup, and I feel like they would have pointed out if it had any utility as a shield buster, so I would not expect to see much utility from it besides calling out and armoring through certain incredibly-telegraphed moves.

Look at the shield's size, that was some big shield damage. It came out relatively quick so I'm tempted to say it was down air as well, but if you look at the motion the swing seems more like down b. In any case, gotta look into it and see what we can do with it

 

[DrKatz]

Based on what I’ve read and seen I’m a little worried about Byleth’s long term viability. If his mobility is slow, that tends to be a big weakness in competitive play.

But it’ll also depend a lot on his frame data and how quick his moves come out, or how strong his combo game/kill confirms are. Anyone have any ideas based on the limited footage we’ve seen?

 

[Teeb147]

Based on what I’ve read and seen I’m a little worried about Byleth’s long term viability. If his mobility is slow, that tends to be a big weakness in competitive play.

But it’ll also depend a lot on his frame data and how quick his moves come out, or how strong his combo game/kill confirms are. Anyone have any ideas based on the limited footage we’ve seen?

Just my opinion, based on the footage and what we know, I think that the character would be mid-tier 'at best', unless they speed up some of the frame data by release. That said, it's possible some of the big moves can be combo'ed into, which would make the character quite good, especially with range. Imagine being able to reach someone quite far and ko with a move. Forward smash tipper ko's mad early, and I was wondering if a ranged down-tilt could maybe combo into one, but that's just a thought.

I think a player will have to be good at reading the opponent, forcing air dodges and other things with range and intimidation. As well as getting them off stage and doing the same thing, with possibly really good meteors. If the character can be good, it'll be a different playstyle, and a lot will depend on having good timing.

Edit: Also, being able to cancel arrows could be good to intimidate and force options as well, including when they're off stage.

 

[DrKatz]

Just my opinion, based on the footage and what we know, I think that the character would be mid-tier 'at best', unless they speed up some of the frame data by release. That said, it's possible some of the big moves can be combo'ed into, which would make the character quite good, especially with range. Imagine being able to reach someone quite far and ko with a move. Forward smash tipper ko's mad early, and I was wondering if a ranged down-tilt could maybe combo into one, but that's just a thought.

I think a player will have to be good at reading the opponent, forcing air dodges and other things with range and intimidation. As well as getting them off stage and doing the same thing, with possibly really good meteors. If the character can be good, it'll be a different playstyle, and a lot will depend on having good timing.

Edit: Also, being able to cancel arrows could be good to intimidate and force options as well, including when they're off stage.

Thanks for your feedback. I agree a lot with your thoughts! I have a lot of experience playing Ike and Corrin, and to me Byleth reminds me of Sm4sh Corrin. The issue is that a character like that might not excel with Ultimate’s mechanics. But you’re right, it depends a lot on his potential combo game.

I love that you can cancel the arrow animation. Is he the only character able to do this with projectiles? That seems pretty cool. I wish he could cancel his side B and down B as well, but I doubt it since they probably would have mentioned it.

 

[HenryXLII]

I think the character might actually be good in certain relevant match ups that are not purely rushdown based. Examples include Snake, Ness, and Lucina.

With Snake it seems like the range of the disjoints are enough to pretty much ignore grenade trades, and Up B can catch high recoveries, and should be able to go through armor.

Ness gets completely outranged, and won't be able to absorb the arrows, so your free to snipe him off stage.

And lastly Lucina gets outranged in general as show by the presentation.

Not saying these match ups are guaranteed to be good, but that they have the potential. And Byleth could be a solid counter pick character if that is the case.

Pikachu just deletes them from the game.

 

[Arrei]

From what we saw of Dtilt, I think we can expect it to be a simple part of his bread and butter - pop the opponent up for a free followup from Ftilt, side aerial, or up special, perhaps, and when opponents try to jump in to avoid it, keep them at bay with side aerials and the occasional side or up special.

I have to wonder how he'll set up for kills, though. As a low mobility fighter there probably won't be anything too wild in the kill combo department. Side special and side smash seem to both have more than 20 frames of startup and we can't tell how safe they are when spaced, but I can't see them giving his tilts kill power given his focus on spacing. Perhaps poking at opponents with Fair and Bair will be the key.

 

[HenryXLII]

I have to wonder how he'll set up for kills, though. As a low mobility fighter there probably won't be anything too wild in the kill combo department. Side special and side smash seem to both have more than 20 frames of startup and we can't tell how safe they are when spaced, but I can't see them giving his tilts kill power given his focus on spacing. Perhaps poking at opponents with Fair and Bair will be the key.

I think this could be a potential weakpoint for Byleth, but there might actually be some decent kill moves.

Side special seems to have strong knockback, due to it's good range, should be pretty solid off stage or for catching airborn opponents.

Upsmash hit's directly in front of Byleth, comboing into the rest of the move. This could be pretty good out of shield depending on how fast it is.

Fully charged Neutral Special has intense kill power, and while it is committal, that is less of an issue when your opponent is off stage or in a tech chase situation. Very similar to Thoron in this regard, insane kill power. Takes a trap to land it effectively.

Lastly I would assume Up Air has solid kill power, and ideally could be able to kill before 140%. Considering it's amazing range and lingering hitbox, this is a move to be afraid of.

I think one of Byleth's biggest issues is going to be beating shields, since their grab game has been confirmed to be pretty bad.

 

[Arrei]

Side special basically HAS to be a kill move considering it's a huge sweeping strike for 17 damage, but I just have a hard time really selling myself on the attack given its startup and how unsafe it seemed to look in the video. It wasn't perfectly spaced when they demonstrated how it left him vulnerable on block but I don't feel like a little bit more distance would keep Byleth safe from just how much endlag he had.

I've mostly written off neutral special, though. The normal shot may be able to land an occasional shot due to its range and arrow speed but the full shot is like charging up a ranged Falcon Punch, it's the most reactable thing in the world and Byleth will basically only ever able to use it from the ground. I can't really see anyone landing that thing with its unyielding startup timing against anything short of horrendously laggy moves like a totally-whiffed up special onto the stage.

Actually, scratch that - the normal shot has ~45 frames startup and the full shot has ~112 frames of startup. That's atrocious. You're going to need a trap just to land that normal shot and I can't imagine the kind of opponent who would let the full shot land in a 1v1.

 

[HenryXLII]

Actually, scratch that - the normal shot has ~45 frames startup and the full shot has ~112 frames of startup. That's atrocious. You're going to need a trap just to land that normal shot and I can't imagine the kind of opponent who would let the full shot land in a 1v1.

That is some pretty weak frame data, though keep in mind that the arrow has a short travel time and goes full screen. So that shaves off quite a few frames depending on where you use it. It's still a pretty dubious move, but I cannot imagine anything with that kind of range being useless.

I think the make or break factor is the moves durability. If an arrow that slow can just be deleted by another move, than it's useful applications go down significantly.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I do recall hearing that Byleth will be a slightly faster walker than Robin, but what about his running speed? Robin is among the slowest runners, all due to his tactician playstyle, but Byleth's playstyle doesn't have any of the flaws that Robin suffers from (limited attack durability).

 

[Teeb147]

I think the ko game, if there aren't many combos, will largely rely on using the bit range to full advantage. Remember that there's huge sweeping arcs (well, like with side b) as well just good range. It's easier to condition them to air dodge when you get them in the air without having to do much. I think spacing's going to be really important, obviously, and some characters will be harder than others, like those with fast speed and range that can come in more easily. Just speculating tho.

 

[LightKnight]

Thanks for your feedback. I agree a lot with your thoughts! I have a lot of experience playing Ike and Corrin, and to me Byleth reminds me of Sm4sh Corrin. The issue is that a character like that might not excel with Ultimate’s mechanics. But you’re right, it depends a lot on his potential combo game.

I don't mean to veer too off discussion but speaking of Corrin, with the character's current state, I feel Byleth's inclusion further pushes Corrin into irrelevancy.
People made those points with the base roster of sword characters but this is the first time I think a character is more directly stepping into Corrin's territory of expertise and playstyle. I hope the balance team has this in mind and plans to further buff Corrin to make them worth playing as a result of this. Much like when Ryu and Ken were buffed right around the time Terry was coming.

More specifically my concerns are that Byleth will have some juggle and combo tools with their great power while Corrin will also have combos/juggles but vastly lack power in comparison. Its fine, and even ideal, if they focus more on differing traits but if one is overall better in all these traits it becomes quite lopsided.

My main overall change would be to make Corrin do noticeably more shield damage on some moves like tippers. As another example, you use to be able to break shields consistently with a double fully charged Neutral-Special but after the projectile shield damage nerfs that was changed but this could be reverted back. With these changes the character's pressure would be scarier without making the overwhelming change of increasing their overall speed. After all, if the gameplay footage we saw of Byleth stays consistent, the character looks like they have major shield pressure which makes sense for Corrin to match.

Thoughts?

 

[DrKatz]

I’m not sure if I should link all three in one post. But Armada, Zero, and Esam all put out videos looking at Byleth’s frame data and potential viability. Great stuff!

To me looks like general consensus is that he’ll be upper-mid or low-high tier due to his great range and strong power (much like Smash 4 Corrin). He’ll likely struggle against the top tiers, especially rushdown or campy characters (depending how good arrow is). But he’s looking like a solid character so far.

Here’s Esam’s video since he looks a lot at specific frame data: https://youtu.be/7F0v4n8eHwY

 

[Teeb147]

From the instruction part of the second video, When we see forward air and back air, they don't move for the landed aerials, and the animation makes it seem like the character has bad landing lag, but if you look at 28:10 of the video, when sakurai is playing, he goes on to do a landing aerial, and the landing lag seems actually decently low.

Not only that, but he goes on to do one more after, right out of jump, and it auto-cancels as he lands (not fast-fallen though).
This to me is good news It means we can still poke with it, especially if we space well.

 

[Oz o:]

I don't mean to veer too off discussion but speaking of Corrin, with the character's current state, I feel Byleth's inclusion further pushes Corrin into irrelevancy.
People made those points with the base roster of sword characters but this is the first time I think a character is more directly stepping into Corrin's territory of expertise and playstyle. I hope the balance team has this in mind and plans to further buff Corrin to make them worth playing as a result of this. Much like when Ryu and Ken were buffed right around the time Terry was coming.

More specifically my concerns are that Byleth will have some juggle and combo tools with their great power while Corrin will also have combos/juggles but vastly lack power in comparison. Its fine, and even ideal, if they focus more on differing traits but if one is overall better in all these traits it becomes quite lopsided.

My main overall change would be to make Corrin do noticeably more shield damage on some moves like tippers. As another example, you use to be able to break shields consistently with a double fully charged Neutral-Special but after the projectile shield damage nerfs that was changed but this could be reverted back. With these changes the character's pressure would be scarier without making the overwhelming change of increasing their overall speed. After all, if the gameplay footage we saw of Byleth stays consistent, the character looks like they have major shield pressure which makes sense for Corrin to match.

Thoughts?

Corrin isn't bad, I just think he's underdeveloped. I used to think that even in Smash 4, as an ex-Corrin main. Corrin isn't even slow. Run speed changes drastically when he runs in foxthrot/initial dashes. Hardly a problem. And it's not like he ever lacked in frame data. He also has like 3-4 aerials safe on shield, such as Fair, Nair , Uair and Bair (not entirely sure). He has probably the best juggling game among swordsmen, you literally just spam Nair and Uair most of the time and it'll hit.

I don't think Byleth will come close to outclassing Corrin, from what I've seen. Frame data seems shaky, and Corrin definitely seems to be winning in that apartment. Even run speed, as I mention, it's fully mitigated by just foxthrotting (which I sincerely hope Byleth's improves drastically).

If anything, I always say Corrin is slightly improved. Having to shield drop pin to punish is an automatic disadvantage (what people did in Smash 4), and while it's true it isn't as reliable as before, his neutral is slightly improved by just side stepping > Pin out of a lot of things, and it feels a lot more natural and flexible to not have to depend on Pin for everything. If anything, that makes him more a sword character than he used to be.