Burying moves.. are they too strong?

[_gold_]

An example of a burying move would be like d-throw or Inkling's roller. I have nothing against the concept of these moves. If I allow myself to be hit by these moves then it's my own fault. But there's two things about about burying moves that make me scratch my head.

The first is that it seems extremely difficult to get out of being buried. Much more so than in Wii U/3DS. I'm not sure if this is the best option, but I once read that the best way to get out of grabs, getting buried, etc.. is to move the directional stick in a circular motion as fast as possible. When I get buried, I'm moving that thing as quick as I possibly can and the opponent still has plenty of time to execute a full on smash attack. Even at low percents.

And the second thing is back in Smash 4, when you were buried, if you were hit then the knockback from a hit was decreased than if you were just hit like regular (without being buried). This doesn't seem to be the case in Ultimate. The knockback doesn't seem to be effected in any way if you're buried. So K. Rool can bury you, side smash, and sometimes kill at very low percents. So am I the only one that has a problem with this?

 

[Kairyu24]

Inkling's roller is seen as problematic even in competitive circles. Seems likely to get a slight nerf, it isn't even controversial to expect it.

 

[gritgodx]

Yeah I have noticed that Inkling's roller is a total pain in the ass, and is really strong. The K. Rool down throw is by itself not overly strong but the way it combos into down smash makes it such a reliable kill tool. I think that burying is used a lot more in this game than previous ones and we will have to give it some time to see if it's really overpowered compared to other kill options, etc.

 

[Justin Allen Goldschmidt]

The minimum amount of time a character is buried when mashing out may get a slight decrease, ideally. Other than that, I don't see much of a problem with it at all.

 

[Call_Me_Red]

To piggy back off of OP: What is the most efficient way to mash?

I know in SSB4 it was rotate the L stick in a diagonal direction in order to get the most inputs per second (for example hit upper right corner to switch between up, upper right, and right). However, in this game it feels like the strongest mash is actually pressing buttons. Any testing on this?

 

[_gold_]

To piggy back off of OP: What is the most efficient way to mash?

I know in SSB4 it was rotate the L stick in a diagonal direction in order to get the most inputs per second. However, in this game it feels like the strongest mash is actually pressing buttons. Any testing on this?

The best method in SSB4 definitely doesn't seem to be as effective. Just by habit, I use the L stick but I'll try new methods next time.

 

[gritgodx]

To piggy back off of OP: What is the most efficient way to mash?

I know in SSB4 it was rotate the L stick in a diagonal direction in order to get the most inputs per second. However, in this game it feels like the strongest mash is actually pressing buttons. Any testing on this?

I would like to know this too. Especially if I can mash without hitting the Y and X for jump, so that I'm not forced into a jump out of my mash. In Smash 4 and now Ultimate I just mashed all of the buttons, but I ended up jumping a lot which put me in just as bad of a position.

 

[Call_Me_Red]

I would like to know this too. Especially if I can mash without hitting the Y and X for jump, so that I'm not forced into a jump out of my mash. In Smash 4 and now Ultimate I just mashed all of the buttons, but I ended up jumping a lot which put me in just as bad of a position.

I can do some testing later today, but in SSB4, pressing buttons was a big no-no. It often resulted in accidentally inputting a laggy move, leaving you wide open, without a jump, or helplessly falling off stage.

(Just a theory, but I think pressing buttons in Smush is the way to go. I think there's a period after being released where button inputs are not read.)

 

[kraw23]

Smush

How dare you

 

[ｐｓ＿]

Inkling's roller seems like a big deal since it trumps characters without a ranged option. They have to commit to it though, so projectiles do screw it.

 

[Arrei]

My initial theory is that the stick is no longer the best option to struggle, and you must mash buttons. I played against some Yoshis online and tried the stick vs. mashing against Egg Lay... and the stick method just was not enough to get me out before falling all the way down, but mashing was. Furthermore, struggling against Egg Lay with the buttons now causes visible action marks around the egg to deliver visual feedback about how much you're struggling, and it didn't seem like the stick did the same.

 

[Call_Me_Red]

I would like to know this too. Especially if I can mash without hitting the Y and X for jump, so that I'm not forced into a jump out of my mash. In Smash 4 and now Ultimate I just mashed all of the buttons, but I ended up jumping a lot which put me in just as bad of a position.

I found that the most efficient methods are spinning the L stick in a circle, or mashing a button. Mashing a button usually leads to inputting a command, so it's not recommended. And not to brag but my mash finger is faster than my spin finger, so take these with a grain of salt.

I tested the following with 2 K Rools in training. One K Rool always did the attacking, the other escaping. Meaning I used the same controllers for each. I tested K Rool's grab, D-throw, and D-tilt. These are my findings for how long it took to escape.

100%
Grab (mash): 2 seconds
Grab (spin): 1.5 seconds
D-tilt (mash): 1.5 seconds
D-tilt (spin): 1.5 seconds
D-throw (mash): 1 second
D-throw (spin): 1 second


500%
Grab (mash) : 6 seconds
Grab (spin): 5 seconds
D-tilt (mash): 3.5 seconds
D-tilt (spin): 3.5 seconds
D-throw (mash): 2 seconds
D-throw (spin): 2 seconds

Like I said I'm more confident in my mash than my spin, so they are either equal or spin is faster. Either way I think spin is the preferred method unless you are confident you can input the correct command after escaping.

Edit: I used the joycons for escaping and I always mashed A. It should also be noted my main controllers are not joycons, but I'm confident in these results.

 

[kraw23]

What if you try spin + mash?

 

[Call_Me_Red]

What if you try spin + mash?

It's about the same or slightly slower, probably because it counts it as one input, like in Smash 4.

 

[kraw23]

No worries. More testing required. Someone in another thread suggested mapping the dpad to shield instead of taunt and mashing that - seems like a decent idea

 

[Call_Me_Red]

No worries. More testing required. Someone in another thread suggested mapping the dpad to shield instead of taunt and mashing that - seems like a decent idea

That's actually not a bad idea. Just learned that shield can also count as mash. The only worry there is potentially air dodging on accident.

 

[kraw23]

When I get home I'll lab it out. I don't see why it couldn't be mapped to attack instead if airdodging is an issue

 

[Justin Allen Goldschmidt]

Inkling's roller seems like a big deal since it trumps characters without a ranged option. They have to commit to it though, so projectiles do screw it.

Also jumping screws it. Also shielding. Also airdodging. Just saying, not meant to sounds smug, I just want people to learn to counter-play this move before complaints reach the dev team and it gets ruined haha.

EDIT: Taunts are an important mechanic that lets me cause all of my loved ones to renounce me and let me wallow in loneliness.

 

[REZERO]

Also jumping screws it. Also shielding. Also airdodging. Just saying, not meant to sounds smug, I just want people to learn to counter-play this move before complaints reach the dev team and it gets ruined haha.

EDIT: Taunts are an important mechanic that lets me cause all of my loved ones to renounce me and let me wallow in loneliness.

While I agree I feel that people are saying bury itself rewards too well for moves that don't have many drawbacks.

 

[Justin Allen Goldschmidt]

While I agree I feel that people are saying bury itself rewards too well for moves that don't have many drawbacks.

I suppose that's true. The only ones that seem a bit unfair are throws, in my opinion.

 

[rat.jpg]

Not too strong just annoying

 

[cot(θ)]

For mashing, I've been rotating both sticks while mashing all four shoulder buttons, just to hedge my bets.

 

[Rocketjay8]

For any of you having trouble with her roller, it's surprisingly not disjointed. If you shield it, it stops her attack completely and leaves her vulnerable. Plenty of disjoints can hit her while she's using the move.

 

[Admiral Pit]

Something tells me it's growing to be annoying real quick, but that's mostly because K.Rool and ROB get it from grabs and can use Smash after that. I haven't really thought about Inkling's so-called roller yet, and would need to see for myself about what that's like.
I'm at least glad Lucas D-throw doesn't bury either... that would've made me more paranoid.

 

[chipndip]

For any of you having trouble with her roller, it's surprisingly not disjointed. If you shield it, it stops her attack completely and leaves her vulnerable. Plenty of disjoints can hit her while she's using the move.

The counter-play is simple, but it's a really fast move with super high payout for that speed. I mean, it's not Sheik jab fast, but for the amount of reward it has, it comes out pretty dang fast.

Only way I'm dealing with them is throwing eggs. A lot of eggs. Like a whole family brunch's worth...for 15...of eggs.

 

[Justin Allen Goldschmidt]

The counter-play is simple, but it's a really fast move with super high payout for that speed. I mean, it's not Sheik jab fast, but for the amount of reward it has, it comes out pretty dang fast.

Only way I'm dealing with them is throwing eggs. A lot of eggs. Like a whole family brunch's worth...for 15...of eggs.

It doesn't hit until frame 16....
That's uh....not fast at all. I know it can seem fast, but just keep thinking to yourself "frame 16, frame 16, I have a whole quarter of a second to react to this". Get psyched-up.

 

[chipndip]

It doesn't hit until frame 16....
That's uh....not fast at all. I know it can seem fast, but just keep thinking to yourself "frame 16, frame 16, I have a whole quarter of a second to react to this". Get psyched-up.

I'm conflicted on if this is sarcasm or not...

 

[Justin Allen Goldschmidt]

I'm conflicted on if this is sarcasm or not...

It's not supposed to be. A lot of the time, dealing with frustrating moves is all about mindset, much like tournament nerves or being confident about yourself in general.

 

[chipndip]

It's not supposed to be. A lot of the time, dealing with frustrating moves is all about mindset, much like tournament nerves or being confident about yourself in general.

Oh, aight, so now I can reply:

I get your point, but it's still pretty quick. A quarter of a second isn't exactly "slow", and really only gives enough time to discern that the Inkling is attacking at all, rather than "The Inkling is attacking with the roller".

My current solution is to just pelt the squid kids with projectiles. They can't actually use the roller and avoid incoming fire at the same time, so it's free damage if they try to use it. Their tools also aren't that good for straight camping since my eggs are pretty spammy and knock them out of their bomb tossing animation, and they don't have anything else to camp with in their kit (which is surprising because they're LOADED with non-lethal guns). Maybe I can react better to the roller offline, but for now I'm pelting them.

 

[Rocketjay8]

Oh, aight, so now I can reply:

I get your point, but it's still pretty quick. A quarter of a second isn't exactly "slow", and really only gives enough time to discern that the Inkling is attacking at all, rather than "The Inkling is attacking with the roller".

My current solution is to just pelt the squid kids with projectiles. They can't actually use the roller and avoid incoming fire at the same time, so it's free damage if they try to use it. Their tools also aren't that good for straight camping since my eggs are pretty spammy and knock them out of their bomb tossing animation, and they don't have anything else to camp with in their kit (which is surprising because they're LOADED with non-lethal guns). Maybe I can react better to the roller offline, but for now I'm pelting them.

How about you test in the training mode to see the safest moves to use against the roller.

 

[ZoroCarlos]

Something tells me it's growing to be annoying real quick, but that's mostly because K.Rool and ROB get it from grabs and can use Smash after that. I haven't really thought about Inkling's so-called roller yet, and would need to see for myself about what that's like.
I'm at least glad Lucas D-throw doesn't bury either... that would've made me more paranoid.

K Rool's Dthrow can be escaped before he can release a Smash attack, from personal experience, so he isn't as bad.
In the case of ROB though, who I played a lot in 4, his bury is almost inescapable at +100% before you release his Usmash, it feels kind of dirty imo. But I'm having a lot of fun with both characters regardless.

 

[Good Guy Giygas]

I thought Inkling's roller looked kinda broken when they first showed it off, but so far I haven't had that many problems with it. But maybe I just haven't fought any really good or annoying Inklings yet, which could very well be the case.

I do think that the burying throws are a little frustrating.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

If your opponent constantly goes for burying moves, read it and punish. Shield Inkling's roller, or take advantage of KKR's slowness and bad approach options (camp him out).

 

[KingBroly]

I think you stay buried for way too long

 

[chipndip]

How about you test in the training mode to see the safest moves to use against the roller.

...yeah...Egg Throw. Like...Idk what else to tell you. It's free damage and pressure if they ever stand up right to use the thing, and I don't have to predict or read anything for it.