Bullet Art moves: the new short hop laser?

[OptimistNic]

Seeing as how the Bullet Art aerials in particular have next to no landing lag, I'd like to know what you guys think of using them repeatedly to build up damage.

 

[Burgundy]

Short hop Nair with Bullet Arts will probably be pretty good. We can also do Dtilt with Bullet Arts, which is better than lasers because she's firing two guns in front of her, and they can't be ducked under.

 

[BlackCephie]

This was my thought about bullet arts before we even saw the latest gameplay vids. Now that we know her aerials had good frame data its definitely seems like a viable way to build damage and pester the opponent. Whats even better is that, if you are short hopping the bullet arts, you should be able to go into bullet climax to mix up your harassment while simultaneously stuffing jump in approaches.

 

[OptimistNic]

One thing that will make or break the bullet arts is range. For n-air and u-air I see the range being very short and not that reliable. On the other hand b-air might have more range since it shoots in one direction only.

 

[Endurrr]

Sakurai deliberately nerfed fox's and falco's lasers. He probably thought about how the bullet arts would be used VERY carefully. There's probably going to be some reason why SH bullet art isn't going to be that great. My guess is if SH bullet art turns out to be bad like I think it is, it'll either be because of range, or it'll be extremely low damage. Like 2 or 3 hits = 1 percent.

 

[Gemzelda_ss]

I feel bullet arts will mostly be used in terms of reaching a character thats a lil bit out of range and won't be used midway through combos
One thing it can be used for is if you miss a combo and they are out of range but can till get hit by BA
Things like this https://gfycat.com/TatteredEquatorialGalapagosmockingbird is what im talking about not to mention it looks super flashy like as if you are really playing Bayonetta.

 

[BlackCephie]

One thing we didnt see was neutral a bullet arts, which seems like it has decent range from the reveal video. Could be better for harassment than short hop bullet arts.

 

[Mr_Kreep3r]

Noticed from trailer/Demo Link can't shield them, they can't be reflected, and they do shield damage?

 

[BlackCephie]

Noticed from trailer/Demo Link can't shield them, they can't be reflected, and they do shield damage?*

It looks like it also also hits pit, through marth. If so that range is decent.

 

[Ridel]

Noticed from trailer/Demo Link can't shield them, they can't be reflected, and they do shield damage?

If they do any shield damage it looks to minescule to do anything effective. ALso in this clip Corrin shields it and doesn't take damage so it doesn't ignore shields, but it can proabably poke easliy if the shield is weaker and you use d-tilt bullets.

 

[Jiggly]

I feel like bullet arts should only be able to be activated if the hit connects. I can just see someone holding jab to bullet art instead. Idk if it will be that big of a problem, but I hope not...

 

[Ridel]

I feel like bullet arts should only be able to be activated if the hit connects. I can just see someone holding jab to bullet art instead. Idk if it will be that big of a problem, but I hope not...

I think it comes down to commitment imo. If they have terribel IASA frames then they won't be spammable in neutral not to mention you can't run and gun like Melee Fox so I don't think they will be too strong.

 

[Mr_Kreep3r]

I feel like bullet arts should only be able to be activated if the hit connects. I can just see someone holding jab to bullet art instead. Idk if it will be that big of a problem, but I hope not...

Well to make up for Jabs horrible frame data (Frame 9 it looks like) you can just Jab hold A to kinda bait an approach maybe then hit them with Jab 2. We don't know how far they go or how long you can hold them though.

 

[wedl!!]

I feel like bullet arts should only be able to be activated if the hit connects. I can just see someone holding jab to bullet art instead. Idk if it will be that big of a problem, but I hope not...

They function independent of the move hitting in the source material. Not gonna happen.

It's like asking for Shoryuken to not be invincible.

 

[Jiggly]

They function independent of the move hitting in the source material. Not gonna happen.

It's like asking for Shoryuken to not be invincible.

I mean, it definitely could happen. It's not hard. I would expect it to not follow through like crosslash if you dont get the inciting hit. It would make sense to me, with the range it has on all of her moves, I can easily see it becoming ridiculous.

 

[BlackCephie]

She needs something to bait in attacks though. With a frame 9 jab and average run speed, she wont really be rushing people down. She looks more defensive and punishing. I think the ability to use at least one of the bullet arts moves in neutral reliably would be much needed.

 

[Gemzelda_ss]

Do we know if BA stales? or do they all count as a different move? if so then this means that it would be able to make staled moves fresh again really quickly, and i can see it be used a ton when combos are ended just to try and get a fresh move again. Another thing is if they do get rid of stale moves then when someone is in high percent a grab into lets say jab 1 BA can help get rid of staled moves so u can get the most earliest time when her moves kill! Hopefully this is all true and we can get some news about this when she comes out

 

[Mr_Kreep3r]

Also note in the earlier gif BAs go through marth and hit pit.

 

[ShinobiGreninja]

Do we know if BA stales? or do they all count as a different move? if so then this means that it would be able to make staled moves fresh again really quickly, and i can see it be used a ton when combos are ended just to try and get a fresh move again. Another thing is if they do get rid of stale moves then when someone is in high percent a grab into lets say jab 1 BA can help get rid of staled moves so u can get the most earliest time when her moves kill! Hopefully this is all true and we can get some news about this when she comes out

You raise a good point. It's hard to say for certain how bullet arts affect move staling seeing as they are a unique character trait to Bayonetta but I believe it will work somewhat similarly to how multi-hitting attacks affect staleness. That being a move like Greninja's up aerial when: either all hits connect or only he cancels the move prematurely by fast-falling to the ground, both cases count as a single entry to the stale move list. This suggests to me that when Bayonetta holds down jab 1 and shoots multiple bullets at the enemy it still only counts as a single entry of jab to the stale move list regardless of how long you hold the button for. If this is the case then in order to unstale your killing moves the quickest you would have to input separate jab (or other non killing moves that have bullet arts) commands which has the potential downside of leaving you more susceptible to attacks because of the startup/endlag of the moves you repeatedly input.

There is, however, a character in the roster does have a way to unstale moves very effectively and has been able to do so in every smash title hes been in. Each button press of Fox's neutral special that connects with an enemy hurt-box counts as an individual entry into the stale move queue. In my testing Fox's fully staled up smash kills Megaman at 134% in the middle of final destination. But after 9 inputs of neutral special up smash kills at 106%, 28% earlier!

If Bayoneta's neutral special behaves like Fox's in that she continues firing as you mash the button then this can be a very practical way of refreshing her stale move queue. I will definitely be labbing with her on release, until then we wont know for sure.

This video provide clear insight into how the stale move negation mechanic works. Its is definitely worth a watch if you haven't seen it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wis_25jQeew

 

[Gemzelda_ss]

You raise a good point. It's hard to say for certain how bullet arts affect move staling seeing as they are a unique character trait to Bayonetta but I believe it will work somewhat similarly to how multi-hitting attacks affect staleness. That being a move like Greninja's up aerial when: either all hits connect or only he cancels the move prematurely by fast-falling to the ground, both cases count as a single entry to the stale move list. This suggests to me that when Bayonetta holds down jab 1 and shoots multiple bullets at the enemy it still only counts as a single entry of jab to the stale move list regardless of how long you hold the button for. If this is the case then in order to unstale your killing moves the quickest you would have to input separate jab (or other non killing moves that have bullet arts) commands which has the potential downside of leaving you more susceptible to attacks because of the startup/endlag of the moves you repeatedly input.

There is, however, a character in the roster does have a way to unstale moves very effectively and has been able to do so in every smash title hes been in. Each button press of Fox's neutral special that connects with an enemy hurt-box counts as an individual entry into the stale move queue. In my testing Fox's fully staled up smash kills Megaman at 134% in the middle of final destination. But after 9 inputs of neutral special up smash kills at 106%, 28% earlier!

If Bayoneta's neutral special behaves like Fox's in that she continues firing as you mash the button then this can be a very practical way of refreshing her stale move queue. I will definitely be labbing with her on release, until then we wont know for sure.

This video provide clear insight into how the stale move negation mechanic works. Its is definitely worth a watch if you haven't seen it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wis_25jQeew

KNOW U JUTS RAISED ANOTHER QUESTION!
Since ur theory on how it works is that the move u use in BA takes up a spot on staleness (in example if u hit her dtilt BA her dtilt will be staled) this means u can do a combo like up b into fair combo but in the last hit of fair combo, just use BA and fair will take up 2 spots?
Sorry if I'm sounding a bit strange i just can't explain this good lmao basically I'm saying that getting the last hit on fair + last hit fair (BA) would be read in as 2 fairs? UGHHH just 1 more day i can't wait to test this all out.!!

 

[ShinobiGreninja]

KNOW U JUTS RAISED ANOTHER QUESTION!
Since ur theory on how it works is that the move u use in BA takes up a spot on staleness (in example if u hit her dtilt BA her dtilt will be staled) this means u can do a combo like up b into fair combo but in the last hit of fair combo, just use BA and fair will take up 2 spots?
Sorry if I'm sounding a bit strange i just can't explain this good lmao basically I'm saying that getting the last hit on fair + last hit fair (BA) would be read in as 2 fairs? UGHHH just 1 more day i can't wait to test this all out.!!

I think I get what your saying, I don't think we can know for sure as to how bullet arts affect her stale queue when she lands an earlier part of the attack untill release because Bayonetta is the only character with an aerial standard attack that requires multiple inputs from the user to get the full combo. However Marth/Lucena posses a similar attack which is their side special. (Using Lucina to avoid tipper variance) when fresh the combo deals 14% total, without angling up or down for the different variations of the move, it kills Megaman at 104%, when fully stale the same series of hits deals 8% total and kills Megaman at around 120%. The interesting thing I found in my testing is that: for most attacks they require nine consecutive hits to reach maximum staleness, however side special only required two full executions to reach the minimum damage and knockback. This is much quicker than I anticipated, this further shows that is the number of button presses that is directly equivalent to the inputs that are added to the stale move queue. I could test to see if the upward and downward angled side specials have count as separate move in the stale queue but I don't feel it's relevant to help determine information about Bayonetta seeing as she doesn't have variations of her forward air.

As for how this relates to Bayonetta; if the stale move negation mechanics that affect Marth/Lucina's side special are the same that affect Bayonetta's forward air then she will have a slightly harder time killing directly with it because the hits that combo into the launching blow serve to stale the final hit but this can also be a positive thing because connecting a forward air removes up to 3 moves that were in the queue previously, making moves she connected earlier more powerful. I would advise against using this move successively when trying to take the stock off of someone because the move itself becomes weak quickly when spammed. If you have landed many of your killing attacks earlier in their stock that didn't finish them then forward air is a good move to use because you are more likely to get a K.O. with those moves the next time you land one.

To try and answer your question "getting the last hit on fair + last hit fair (BA) would be read in as 2 fairs?" both the initial input and the holding down of the button may possibly count as the same input for the stale queue so only show up as one entry on the list, according to this evidence.