Buffs that would make DK a MUCH Better combatant

[Solutionme]

Zero is saying you guys have a top tier in your hands. Imo maybe not top tier but high tier for sure. Thoughts? Personally I still think the wall jump is very necessary. Too easy to make the Dong Limp even with that hoo-hah.

 

[DaRkJaWs]

Zero was spot on, before the ding dong buff i had come to the conclusion the dk is a solid mid tier character. With the cargo upthrow up air buff he is either the highest of mid tier or lowest of high tier. The key to being a top tier character in this game is the ability to get fast kills, or to be sheik or similar frame data. Dk already has close to the best offstage game (he's in there with pikachu for best), his problem has always been his neutral game. But now dk can get in some close to guaranteed hits and get massive damage to do a cargo upthrow up air kill. His one limitation has been severely neutered even if still visible, and that puts him in that category. Honestly the way we rank characters is by frame data and combos, and ability to recover. If one changed that criteria a little bit dk could be ranked even slightly above low high tier, but I think it will just take some time for people to become more comfortable with the game to see how it eventually turns out.

 

[Solutionme]

Personally, I don't think he is top tier. He still has very clearly defined weaknesses. While I admit Zero was spot on, he exaggerated it. Now if DK had a wall jump then he would be top tier, because it just improves his longevity enough that he could abuse his rage more. But he is still easy to camp, has a hard time landing, and is somewhat easy to combo. But I strongly believe he is high tier. He has a solid way to kill very early all the way to very late, and some of his moves create very strong traps which need to be respected. His recovery is also somewhat surprisingly good at edgeguarding as well.

Though when it comes to Robin, he was so off I got mad because his video didn't have any thought put into it, and his argument was to make a character with strong projectiles move faster, which she does move at a fair speed. Her air speed is decent and unlike ganon, she has a good b-reverse to mix it up. Se also isn't slow in both areas of movement and has an insane combo game which leads into kill moves, and he bronze sword sets up tech chases and jab locks at low percents, they also create interesting juggle situations at high percents. Only thing I could agree on with him was improving that excuse for grab range Robin has.

But yeah at least with DK he was right, he just exaggerated that position.

 

[DaRkJaWs]

I think one thing that interests me is that dkwill has shown how to out camp campers. His neutral game is so good and solid that it's really hard to imitate it, largely because it is based off of experience he has had vs the best day in and day out. And there's a lot of special stuff will doesn't do outside of that shows me that if, for example, he had my tech and know how or if I was a little more solid in the neutral game that dk would be winning multiple tournaments. It's not even a question. Dk is that good, but he is very hard to master in the sense that it's very hard to learn the kind of patience needed to be good in the neutral. His tech also isn't easy to master either (b reversing all his specials in the air, for example). Unfortunately smash 4 puts limitations as to what playstyles can win games. you just can't play too aggressively.

 

[Solutionme]

I think one thing that interests me is that dkwill has shown how to out camp campers. His neutral game is so good and solid that it's really hard to imitate it, largely because it is based off of experience he has had vs the best day in and day out. And there's a lot of special stuff will doesn't do outside of that shows me that if, for example, he had my tech and know how or if I was a little more solid in the neutral game that dk would be winning multiple tournaments. It's not even a question. Dk is that good, but he is very hard to master in the sense that it's very hard to learn the kind of patience needed to be good in the neutral. His tech also isn't easy to master either (b reversing all his specials in the air, for example). Unfortunately smash 4 puts limitations as to what playstyles can win games. you just can't play too aggressively.

Personally I wouldn't be surprised if the next patch they slightly nerf it, but I still don't think he is a top tier, He's is more than likely leading the high tiers though. Even if you manage to avoid getting camped, you're most likely required to use a grounded up-b, jump, used the aerial up-b, or stand on a platform, none of which are good for DK. But I swear to you if he had a wall jump he'd be top tier, no question about, it'd improve his survivability and give him better mix-ups off of recoveries.

 

[Axel311]

My 2 cents-

I don't think DK is high tier. Despite his new ding dong combo he still gets bodied by a lot top tiers like . Those matchups are awful because all those characters can exploit DK's huge hurtbox and/or camp him out. And he is still behind slightly in the matchups I think. I'd put him at high mid tier. I really don't think he beats any of the top 10. Maybe goes even with? Who in the top 10 does he beat? I still think he is even or losing against all of them honestly. And even outside the top/high tiers, I think he still loses against a lot of characters who can camp him out like . And while others may disagree I think he even loses against some low tiers like who can also camp/wall him out in neutral.

 

[JesseMcCloud]

Seriously lacking in rolls and ledge recovery, imo.
Oh, and if fairs on grounded targets weren't tech-able, that would be great.

 

[kro_]

Lol. You don't know whether it can be reversed and yet you had the audacity to say I was wrong. Git good son.

I know it can be reversed, but only idiots would ever fall for it. Wow, you're so knowledgeable, you know some B-moves can be reversed!

The problem is that it has two years of landing lag. You have to be even denser to think it's gonna work against good players.

Down b to land on shield yes, just not so much on someone not shielding. At least that's the logical way to go about it.

So you would use it on someone shielding, but not someone you'd be able to actually hit with the move? Jesus, some people

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Make it so he doesn't go into free fall when he does his giant punch.

 

[smokebomb12]

Give him some super armor on his aerial spin.

 

[PIXLEsauce]

All he needs buffed is his recovery imo
It's really hard to get good offstage kills without dying in the process.

 

[DaRkJaWs]

All he needs buffed is his recovery imo
It's really hard to get good offstage kills without dying in the process.

Not true. Don't get me wrong, without his second jump his recovery is in fact Terrible; but they introduced a few things in smash 4 to alleviate this. One is that his aerial up b can be b reversed, allowing a mix up in ones recovery. His down b can also be b reversed and wavebounced, which gives one a better gimping potential in certain circumstances. There is also a special way to run off stage with his aerial down b without dying, but it's not something that can be done without changing control settings.

 

[PIXLEsauce]

Not true. Don't get me wrong, without his second jump his recovery is in fact Terrible; but they introduced a few things in smash 4 to alleviate this. One is that his aerial up b can be b reversed, allowing a mix up in ones recovery. His down b can also be b reversed and wavebounced, which gives one a better gimping potential in certain circumstances. There is also a special way to run off stage with his aerial down b without dying, but it's not something that can be done without changing control settings.

Maybe I'm still getting used to it, I just feel like he has so much offstage potential, yet it's hard to chase characters because they probably can recover better

 

[JesseMcCloud]

I'd like it if he got more than 3* frames of super armor on Giant Punch.

*Sarcasm. Not sure what it really is.

 

[miniada]

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...yxklAybEWtvybaF2w&sig2=nR2wQ5tjygokp1WQcmm0Uw were discussing expand and would love your input

 

[Athorment]

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...yxklAybEWtvybaF2w&sig2=nR2wQ5tjygokp1WQcmm0Uw were discussing expand and would love your input

Requested Page gave an Error

 

[miniada]

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IDK

 

[Chief Chili]

I think Dk needs less landing lag on his aerials. In my opinion he struggles when he has to approach and the only sort of safe moves he can do are cross up nairs or spaced back airs. Dk is a punish/read based character but as it stands most characters can just camp him out and it's just not good enough if you can only rely on reads to win.

 

[DaRkJaWs]

Well his cargo up throw up air being so good kind of alleviates that problem now, because if you do have the read they are dead. The big that needs the most help now is bowser...he needs to be able to b reverse his aerial up b so he can edgeguard farther offstage, and he needs a kill throw, at the least.

 

[WarmSmells]

One thing I think would help DK a lot is to give his dair the ganondorf treatment. Make it so the opponent can't tech it if they're standing on the ground, and force the pop-up. This would make stuff like (Bury >) Dair > Uair / Giantpunch (for swag) guaranteed at a large range of kill percents. I use dair > uair occasionally, but making it guaranteed would be amazing for when opponents are just out of cargo uair kill percent.

 

[Dededork 649]

In my opinion, DK doesn't need many buffs, just no nerfs. Please don't nerf him Sakurai.

 

[Dre89]

Asking for buffs at this point is ridiculous. Anyone who still wants buffs just doesn't want to require any skill whatsoever to win. Aside from having 50% combos and mid percent kills off grabs, he has very good damage-on hit relative to his mobility and frame data. He's also one of the best gimpers in the game with just using one move and he's extremely difficult to gimp past low percents.

If someone mentions his bad neutral I'm going to cringe. That is literally his only weakness and the only aspect of his game that takes genuine skill. Asking to buff those when he's already exceptional in virtually every other regard is basically saying you're a bad player.

 

[Dark Phazon]

What are the Cloud patch buff to DK list?

 

[Aninymouse]

What are the Cloud patch buff to DK list?

No changes, thank God.

I will say this, though: there are a million small changes I wish they'd make, but the ones I wish for the most are making all his attacks line up with the animations. Several of DK's attacks have no hitbox on some animations for seemingly no reason other than "tradition."

 

[Blueberry Kong]

After the Ding Dong, the only buffs DK needs are better ledge attack and better down smash. And they may as well buff the aerial hand slap because it's almost completely useless atm.

 

[DaRkJaWs]

Dkbill I still completely disagree with that comment about aerial down b. I did start playing again recently and I can show you some replays I saved of how I use it...I'm the master with it so I know exactly how good the move is. I finally got will to see how good it was after telling him countless times that it wasn't useless, and while he doesn't use it to its maximum potential he uses it at least once a game now. If it does need a buff its that it should have some autocancel frames if used on stage, actually i really think it would be great if they added that. I need to get a capture card so I can share these replays. Actually just add my nnid and I'll send them to u, nnid sharifi_shuffle

I agree with the terrible ledge getup options but that's smash 4 for you, not just dk.

 

[Blueberry Kong]

Dkbill I still completely disagree with that comment about aerial down b. I did start playing again recently and I can show you some replays I saved of how I use it...I'm the master with it so I know exactly how good the move is. I finally got will to see how good it was after telling him countless times that it wasn't useless, and while he doesn't use it to its maximum potential he uses it at least once a game now. If it does need a buff its that it should have some autocancel frames if used on stage, actually i really think it would be great if they added that. I need to get a capture card so I can share these replays. Actually just add my nnid and I'll send them to u, nnid sharifi_shuffle

I agree with the terrible ledge getup options but that's smash 4 for you, not just dk.

I rarely see Will use it still, but I'd like to see what you've been doing with it. The thing with the ledge attack option for DK is that the entire arm isn't a hitbox and I feel like it goes through people so often.

 

[DaRkJaWs]

I rarely see Will use it still, but I'd like to see what you've been doing with it. The thing with the ledge attack option for DK is that the entire arm isn't a hitbox and I feel like it goes through people so often.

You will have to add me to see the replays.

 

[Luigi player]

I recently looked at the Brawl downB frame data and DK had 29 frames of lag after every 2nd downB slap if you stopped the move. Where 31 is the last hitbox of the 2nd slap. Which means frame 60 endframe if you just do 2 slaps (1 time downB).

With the new one the hitframes are still the same, but the endinglag is a lot more... he's in lag from the first 2 slaps until frame 75. With 76 being the FAF (first actable frame).

This makes me sad.. his downB was such a safe and amazing tool. Now it's just too risky.

If they want to keep his weaknesses (not able to land / limited recovery / pretty much no good/fast aerial move in front of him) then they should keep on buffing his other options. At least there was no reason to nerf them from Brawl...

They did a lot of rights with some buffs like invincible head / arms and bigger hitbox for fsmash and more active frames for dashattack, but there still needs some stuff to be done that probably wouldn't even make him top tier.


I actually thought about changes that I would make to most characters to balance the game more, here's my take on DK

- cargo utoss: more KBG for much tighter or no KO window
+ neutralB: charges +1 if swung once and cancelled,

can grab ledge if pushed from the edge of stage
(or can't be pushed over),
no-Superarmor-bug fixed (from aerial->ground)​

+ downB: grounded: less endinglag,

aerial: less ending + landinglag​

+ dashattack: hitbox frame 8 (is 9 right now), endinglag -~2 frames
+ ftilt: more range
+ dsmash: hitboxes above (frame 10) + stronger
+ dthrow: less endinglag for f/dtilt followup (low %)
+ fair: added autocancelframes at startup and ending
+ upB: lagless landing like in brawl

I know cargo utoss stuff can be fun and he can keep it to some extent to rack up %, but it's one thing that's holding him back actually, since it's kinda stupidly good so it was made to compensate for a lot of other stuff that DK would need fixed. So imo a bad trade. I'd rather have some real flaws fixed instead of keeping them and giving him one op thing (that can actually be really hard to pull off since you basically have to not get hit a lot or else utoss -> uair won't KO / combo at kill-%).

Here's a writeup that explains most stuff in more detail:

This character is kinda ‘buggy’ and a little stupid. I loved the way he was in Brawl, but they changed a lot… DK wasn’t top and most didn’t even see him as a high tier, but he was quite decent except for a few bad MUs like Dedede, MK and ZSS (maybe Diddy too). In Smash4 he got a lot weaker. Even though he got buffs too, his nerfs hit quite hard.
His downB is pretty unsafe, his giant punch charging is stupid, he can die if you block it when he’s with his back to the edge, he takes an extra swing at the end even though it would already be fully charged, AND he never gets superarmor if the timing is so that you go from aerial into grounded while using the move at the “wrong” time, since the SA frames are different from aerial and grounded. All of this should be fixed. Aerial downB could also use a big buff, which is why I’d give it less lag. The developers / balance team decided to give DK the cargo combos to compensate for his otherwise suckyness, but I and many would like it better if he’s overall buffed and doesn’t rely too much on his hoo-hah combo. So I’d remove the ding dong as a kill-confirm and just make it possible at lower % and fastfallers a bit later too. Ftilt was an amazing move in Brawl. In Smash4 it appears to have more range than it actually does with the wind effect, but the range is kinda pityful compared to the effect / Brawl. It’s a kinda bad / useless move, since dtilt is much safer and has almost the same range and sets up much better. His dashattack got much better after the latest buffs, but I’d still make it even better, giving it 1 frame less startup and a bit less ending again (it’s just suuuuper easy to punish already, these few endinglag frames wouldn’t change that much). His dsmash was super great in Brawl. In Smash4 it would be even better with hand / arm invincibility. Maybe the developers though that was too strong and removed his upper hitbox? The move also got suuuper weak. It should be made stronger again so it’ll be a good killmove for DK. Fair doesn’t have any autocancel frames. I think it’d be fair to give it some, since his and Lucarios fairs are iirc the only aerials who have none (Shulks autocancels are bad too), and with Lucarios quick fair that isn’t too much of a problem. For DK it is, though. He still lands on his butt after almost completing the animation… I think it’s fair to help him with this. All of this would still not help DK with his biggest problem: getting combo’d and juggled, because of his big size and bad landing options. That’s why he needs his lagless, perfect upB landing back. Kinda how his custom move ‘kong cyclone’ has it. With this he can at least attempt to get back to platforms to get out of some terrible positions. Alternatively, they could buff his nair (faster startup, less landinglag).

 

[Athorment]

Nothing wrong with wanting to check for buffs as long as there is the adequate balancing. Imo DK's over reliance of the Ding Dong for tournament placement is not an adequate indicative of balancing. Well, it's balanced because he has that confirm for early kills despite all his flaws, but it just speaks lazy "balancing".

Sure, there's the talk that a perfectly balanced DK, or any character, would be to "Make them all like Mario"; that's a misconception that needs to go. You can help characters and not necessarily make them OP.
I'm with Luigi Player on this. The Down smash to have a "Sourspot" hitbox that activates as he puts his arms down would help the move. Down tilt seems to be the go to tilt over side tilt, the latter of which could find some use if you could angle it further up.
His Neutral Air has him spining twice, why not give it a late hitbox (like wario's) to help his landing? Cancel frames on his forward Air might be an odd thing to do (Just imagine it, He is about to strike when suddenly he is standing infront of you shielding?) but less lag on the starting portion of it (before the hit) would be nice. Aerial Down B with added shield stun or ability to break shields if both hand slaps connect might be a valid wild card that could help more people find it's use on landing (one predictable option is better than none) while it would still retain it's lag (or cut it down for a frame or two. idk)

 

[DaRkJaWs]

Yeah I've always been annoyed by fairs landing lag when the input was just before you hit the ground. This happens when at times you want to do RAR back air and a projectile hits you before the second kick comes out. I feel the same way with aerial down b...but in this case I think the lag after the second slap (before touching the l stage) should be cut in half at least, there is no reason why lag should remain when it was used so far in advance.

And honestly yes, dk needs a lot of help on ledge get up options. Back at smashcon I noted that I faced off vs Mr r in friendlies and really the only difference between us, and the reason he would win all our matches even when I got close to winning (this was before I discovered that I should use ding dong to kill rather than rack up damage) was what happened at the ledge. He just abused the **** out of me there and I had no way to deal with it at times. Basically the same thing happened to will yesterday vs dabuz. Making dk pay at the ledge is something most people don't do effectively but once they figure out just how badly they can abuse dk there this will gain more of our attention. I even have special ways of mixing it up on the ledge that other dks don't do but they are not safe options themselves per say.

 

[Big O]

At this point, I don't think DK needs too much to be competitive. IMO, he needs a bunch of cleaning up and QoL changes that would take all the random anti-jank out and smooth out his neutral a little bit. It's okay that DK can't really land and that he is extremely easy to juggle and abuse on the ledge. Weaknesses are just as important as strengths for the flavor and balance of a character. What is lame and not cool are things like the numerous moves DK has that are unsafe on hit at low %'s.

QoL Buffs​

-Neutral B ledge grabs after punch (No more punch SD’s on block)

-Neutral B charge bug fixed (No more ghost wind-up, canceling wind-ups with shield stores charge properly)

-Giant Punch Super Armor in the air matches with Super Armor on the ground (Doesn’t lose SA when landing)

-Jab 1 inner hit always safe on hit/combos into jab 2, always jab locks (Changed to fixed base kb)

-FtiltU/S/D safe on hit at low %'s (Added base kb)

-Utilt safe on hit at low %'s (Added base kb, slightly lower kb growth)

-Usmash safe on hit at low %'s (Added base kb)

-Dsmash safe on hit at low %'s (Added base kb, slightly lower kb growth)

-Side B 1/3 sourspot safe on hit (Added base kb/angle change, knocks away Luma)

-Down B 1 safe on hit (Added base kb), does 1 pair of slaps per button press (Very annoying when it does extra and you get punished)

-Grounded Spinning Kong links more reliably (Fixed kb for all hits except final, not SDIable)

-Sourspot Punch kbg/dmg changed to normal for all Punches (No more awkward ghost hits)

-Ftilt whiff fixed (Shoulder Hitbox added or hitboxes moved and/or size increased)

-Dair/Fair are untechable against grounded opponents

-Air Down B changed to autolink angle so that it always links into second hit

With the above changes, DK would be a lot less prone to randomly getting punished for landing hits or silly hitbox issues. As a side bonus, he would also have some more appropriate reward on his laggy tilts/smashes and scale better with rage. People won't fly out of Spinning Kong's multi-hits or punish you for landing Side B/Down B. DK would be probably be somewhere around the top 15-20 with these QoL changes. Making DK a top 10 character around Mario's power level (probably the most reasonable power level to shoot for balance wise) would probably need some of the big buffs below.

Big Buffs
​

-Ledge Roll goes farther and/or has slightly more invincibility frames

-Ledge Attack hits slightly earlier and also hits higher (on the downswing of his arm)

-Spinning Kong AC's like Kong Cyclone/Brawl's Up B

-Useless regular Dthrow is sped up and gets a hitbox that knocks Luma away/hits other people in teams

-Air Dodges changed to start and end one frame earlier (SH Air Dodge to Bair would work!)

-Spot Dodge starts frame 2 (Helps dodge lingering stuff better like ZSS tether grabs)

-Nair's hitbox size increased for the strong initial hit to cover his lower body better (Reliably hits PKT below him)

-Bair AC window starts earlier (Can AC with SHFF Bair)

-Fair has a normal AC window before it hits and after frame 42 (Getting hit while backwards and doing Fair won't be so silly)

-Uair AC's earlier and lingers a bit longer (Hits in front of him for longer)

-All aerials get slightly less landing lag

-Jab 2 sped up 2 frames to beat frame 6 shield grabs, hitbox lingers to beat dodges better like in Brawl

-Ftilt range matches the graphics of the swipe effect

-Dash Attack's strong hit goes through projectiles like Ike and Jigglypuff's Dash Attacks.

-Pivot grab given arm intangibility to beat spindash type moves instead of trading

-Dsmash starts frame 10

-Usmash scoops people into the main hitbox or just has size increased to hit lower/to the side a bit more

-Side B endlag massively reduced, buries for longer, aerial spike hitbox is bigger

-Air Down B landing lag and endlag reduced

-Cargo Hold time increased and Heavy Armor improved

-All item throw endlag significantly reduced (DK throws barrels with less lag than banana's and 99% of other items lol)

Obviously if he got everything mentioned above he might be like ZSS level silly, but individually they are all changes he could use.

 

[DaRkJaWs]

N/t sorry changed my mind.