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Ike Boards General/Q&A Thread

Ussi

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Eruption is a borderline useless move.. If only ledges weren't auto snapped then it'd be good.

I'm part of those sad eruption is back :/
 
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Blubolouis

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Yeah, no real surprise there. I'm not expecting much from our counter either. Marth will have his usual one, leaving us the slow, virtually useless one. The real improvement can come from aether and sideB.
 

Mr. Doom

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Hi, I'm back. And I'm disappearing again. Does anyone want to buy MPTV Mister Doom that River Spirit Nami skin? lol
 

Ussi

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No one here plays LoL besides me

Speaking of which, we should play a game Mr. Doom! I'm available in like 30 minutes
 
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san.

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Any moveset trends with Ike the last couple of years. Tried starting up training mode once again and there were quite a few situational moves that I had yet to develop further.
 

Heartstring

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Moveset trends? Well everyone still love jab, nair, fair and bair. Really no metagame development has happened in a while
 

Berserker Swordsman

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Waldo and I started using Dsmash a lot to honor the late Red-X. But uh, not sure if that could count as a moveset trend.

If Ike is looking as identical as he does in Smash 4, we might not even need to think very much out of the gate.
 
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Heartstring

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Waldo and I started using Dsmash a lot to honor the late Red-X. But uh, not sure if that could count as a moveset trend.

If Ike is looking as identical as he does in Smash 4, we might not even need to think very much out of the gate.
I think Ike is going to really struggle in sm4sh if he stays how he is. The new edge mechanics are really going to hurt him, and he's not going to benefit too much from the increased hitstun. but we'll have to see
 

san.

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Yeah, interesting to know. I haven't been following things too much. Just wondering if people were doing anything new that was worth learning.

Ike should be fine. Whether he'll be as good as buffed DK and Bowser though has yet to be seen. I hope Bowser doesn't completely overshadow him.
 
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D

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I've done Jab cancel to D-Smash....once. It's not that bad, if you're SURE it'll hit. 13-14 frames of startup make it relatively fast, being one of Ike's Smash Attacks. It also packs a somewhat decent punch, IIRC.
 

Blubolouis

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I use counter more often when juggled; sure it's not great but it's not like airdodge to the ground is unpunishable either, and it can help conditioning the opponent. I also use sideB to punish landings, which I never used to. And I use a lot of wavebounced sideB s when recovering, especially on BF, just to mess with edgeguard spacing. Other than that, yeah, it's basically only jabs.
 

Cr5_01

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What is the boards opinion on Down smash? Opinions on using it to deal with rolls and air dodges?
 

Xuan Wu

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What is the boards opinion on Down smash? Opinions on using it to deal with rolls and air dodges?
I just wished it sent foes at a more horizontal trajectory, though we could always hope for that in the next Smash. With that, U-Smash wouldn't outclass it too much.

^-^
 

san.

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I can't really think of any situations to dsmash where jab wouldn't work just fine.

Feels fresh playing this after a few years, especially without all of the mental fatigue/apathy of playing that I had before. I guess I was touched with what occurred during this past E3.
 
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At first, I came in here expecting some sort of spam thread loll

Instead, I shall inquire about anyone willing to do an FE13 draft run :D
 

Berserker Swordsman

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At first, I came in here expecting some sort of spam thread loll

Instead, I shall inquire about anyone willing to do an FE13 draft run :D
What's that?

I can't really think of any situations to dsmash where jab wouldn't work just fine.

Feels fresh playing this after a few years, especially without all of the mental fatigue/apathy of playing that I had before. I guess I was touched with what occurred during this past E3.
Well, jab3 doesn't have the killing capacity dsmash does. Not as easy (or intuitive) to DI, either. Jab is just such a predictable tool that, while useful, can be equally be a bane to trying to finish a stock I think. Ike isn't a strong enough character to really afford to take extra damage just because we force the opponent offstage again on an edgeguard read that doesn't finish the stock. Though I dunno, that doesn't make dsmash a better move than jab in any case really.

I think watching Melee streams recently has made me realize how being efficient can be done in Brawl and it's not attempted as much because we all try to pick "safe" options just because we think Brawl is 90%+ defense. Not that I'll ever find out, don't think I'll touch Brawl ever again =/
 

san.

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It's pretty easy to hit with dsmash since it doesn't seem to clank and comes out somewhat quickly with an okay shield stab chance. There's just not enough reward imo. A little bit more damage/KO power on the first hit uncharged would have helped. It's useful if you think you feel you have a good chance of it landing.

I do agree that exploring the entire moveset is useful. There's a use for all of Ike's moves in certain situations.

This may sound scrubby, but I'll just play the way that's most fun, even if it's not the most "efficient." Starting to think that that will help in the long run.
 
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What's that?
Its where you go and draft units from the entire cast of character. Then, you only use those characters for the rest of the game. There are some other additional house keeping rules of say everyone gets Chrom or Avatar, or the game difficulty. Stuff like that.
 
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Cr5_01

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Is up-smash really that much better than down-smash? Jab is always good at lower percents, but I'm wondering if down-smash is viable at higher percents. Correct me if I'm wrong, I haven't played Ike recently, but doesn't the second hit of down-smash linger a bit? I just think that if it does then it might have a few uses. I really need to start playing Ike again.
 

Xuan Wu

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Is up-smash really that much better than down-smash? Jab is always good at lower percents, but I'm wondering if down-smash is viable at higher percents. Correct me if I'm wrong, I haven't played Ike recently, but doesn't the second hit of down-smash linger a bit? I just think that if it does then it might have a few uses. I really need to start playing Ike again.
Definitely, by a large margin. The u-smash is only inferior to the d-smash in speed. Not only is the former more powerful but also has greater range. There are a few useful applications. Similar to the RAR b-air, u-smash can be reversed, allowing the hitbox to extend further toward the direction the user is running. One can even retreat with it, which can catch a pursuing opponent off-guard. The fact that both smashes send opponents at vertical trajectories defeats the purpose of even using d-smash as a KO move, but I suppose it could be used for surprise. Basically, what d-smash can do, u-smash can do better.

There is a lingering hitbox for the second swing of d-smash, yes. The second hit is also more powerful than the first if it hits during the initial attack frames, if I recall correctly.

Another wish I want for the next smash would be f-smash given transcendent priority like the two smash attacks.

^-^
 
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Well, jab3 doesn't have the killing capacity dsmash does. Not as easy (or intuitive) to DI, either. Jab is just such a predictable tool that, while useful, can be equally be a bane to trying to finish a stock I think. Ike isn't a strong enough character to really afford to take extra damage just because we force the opponent offstage again on an edgeguard read that doesn't finish the stock. Though I dunno, that doesn't make dsmash a better move than jab in any case really.

I think watching Melee streams recently has made me realize how being efficient can be done in Brawl and it's not attempted as much because we all try to pick "safe" options just because we think Brawl is 90%+ defense. Not that I'll ever find out, don't think I'll touch Brawl ever again =/
The conclusion that was enlightened to me playing melee marth is that Marth has the capacity (i believe) to deny any sort of action an opponent does when in the air. At least, if they try to get back to the stage or ledge Marth can be there to prevent it from happening. While Marth does not always get KO's out of this method it does not really matter since he could always keep doing this until the person eventually dies from say something weak staled uair at 160%.

I am sure how true this is for Ike, but if Ike has some capacity to do as I described with Marth in melee I believe its in your best interest to stick with the safe strategies as its probably the most efficient. In general though it is most efficient to never give your opponent the opportunity to dictate how to interact with you. I'll give an example. Say you decide to shield. Shielding is actually really bad because you are literally stuck on a timer. You have to make some action eventually else your shield will break and get punished anyway. By you shielding you are banking on your opponent attempting to attack your shield. However, if your opponent never attacks, then you are now at the disadvantaged. By shielding your opponent gets to dictate how to interact with you.

The rest depends upon character match-ups to see how good a character is at covering options to punish whatever you do out of shield. With brawl, unfortunately, the size of the cast which can do this is very small. In the end, I am trying to say that jab is probably going to be your best option as opposed to Dsmash. Dsmash seems to be a very committal move that banks on your opponent not shielding or doing something like that to avoid the dsmash the moment you decide to use it. In which case, you probably get punished for using Dsmash instead of Jab potentially not being punished.

It's pretty easy to hit with dsmash since it doesn't seem to clank and comes out somewhat quickly with an okay shield stab chance. There's just not enough reward imo. A little bit more damage/KO power on the first hit uncharged would have helped. It's useful if you think you feel you have a good chance of it landing.

I do agree that exploring the entire moveset is useful. There's a use for all of Ike's moves in certain situations.

This may sound scrubby, but I'll just play the way that's most fun, even if it's not the most "efficient." Starting to think that that will help in the long run.
If it does not clank, transcendent priority? I thought all of Ike's sword moves had that feature.

In what long run are you referring too? I would say that playing most efficiently as possible leads to better long-term improvement. While playing however you like probably gives you the best happiness in the long run. In either route you meant, trying to play optimally I believe helps separate a good player from a great player. However, that mentality of mine I feel only applies to some character that has a clear action to take to some response. When it comes to characters like say ganon in brawl I have no idea what is optimal anymore for a character that has not clear response to a situation.

Is up-smash really that much better than down-smash? Jab is always good at lower percents, but I'm wondering if down-smash is viable at higher percents. Correct me if I'm wrong, I haven't played Ike recently, but doesn't the second hit of down-smash linger a bit? I just think that if it does then it might have a few uses. I really need to start playing Ike again.
I cannot think of Dsmash being good or bad at lower percents unless you mean the reward for hitting someone at say 0% means you get punished. Jab is really freaking good at all percents. Good ground priority due to hits percentage. Its fast and relatively non-committal. Should you hit a person you get a free launcher. Else if you shield, then you have the potential to mix-up your timings and attempt to back out safely from your disadvantage.

Despite people looking for better uses for a move, I think in general some moves will just be too bad to reliably use or there will almost always be a better option. Looking at Dsmash as a whole it does not have any defining traits that make me want to use it over something else Ike has in his arsenal. While Usmash to me seems a prime move to attempt to catch airdodges. If you can force your opponent into a situation where they are coming down directly at you, then by charging you have a move which has much longer reach than pretty much any attempted aerial at you. If people air dodge you still have power over your release via charging. Although, that's just a rough guess. I bet there is probably a better alternative to charging Usmash to cover someone coming back down from the sky(Uair?).

Definitely, by a large margin. The u-smash is only inferior to the d-smash in speed. Not only is the former more powerful but also has greater range. There are a few useful applications. Similar to the RAR b-air, u-smash can be reversed, allowing the hitbox to extend further toward the direction the user is running. One can even retreat with it, which can catch a pursuing opponent off-guard. The fact that both smashes send opponents at vertical trajectories defeats the purpose of even using d-smash as a KO move, but I suppose it could be used for surprise. Basically, what d-smash can do, u-smash can do better.

There is a lingering hitbox for the second swing of d-smash, yes. The second hit is also more powerful than the first if it hits during the initial attack frames, if I recall correctly.
So, pretty much at this point the discussion has been about Dsmash and exploring other moves in Ike's arsenal and seeing its uses. I believe this is a good idea for any character, but I often thought there has always been a ton of emphasis on finding uses for moves despite that use not always being the best option. For example, I believe using a move simply because it offers a surprise factor is not a good reason for using a move.

"As a game progresses through its competitive life span, the window for what are considered "viable techniques" slowly decreases as people learn how to overcome them. Ultimately, the best and final skills are the ones that cannot be overcome. This is true for almost any competitive game. It is an observable and notable trend." -Umbreon

This quote I think really catches the idea I want to get across. Certain things are just not going to be very viable and if one wants to get really good at competitive gaming it tends to mean you have to pick options that cannot be overcome. With that mentality in mind I would say that trying to use Usmash as a means to ". . .catch a pursuing opponent off-guard." is not a good reason to attempt to justify using Usmash for some situation.

It would seem more efficient process to look at some move and determine if there is any situation in which it is the best option to make or one of the better options to take. If so, you use it strictly for that type of situation. Inevitably, some moves will simply never be justifiable or pale in comparison to a better move to make.

---


Hopefully, I did not come across as being annoying or some other negative trait. Simply trying to put forth an alternative take on deciding how to justify using a move or not.

I bet no one is going to read this :(
 
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Blubolouis

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I quickly read it :3 ike's sword isn't transcendant on a lot of grounded moves. I think only usmash and dsmash are. All of his aerials are, though.
 
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