Bring Bayo Back!

Vierge

#1soyboy
Premium
Joined
Jul 20, 2016
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27
Location
US midwest
Switch FC
3850 4617 0606
#1
As true Bayonetta fans, we are not OK with her discriminatory nerfs and the competitive irrelevance she suffers from in SSBU. What Sakurai/Nintendo has done to this character is obscene and wrong. We know what the core issues are: she has been robbed of the lag reduction other lightweights have and now has barely any viable KO moves. And Witch time. When you argue with some people about the KO moves they complain 'Witch time is a KO move', seemingly ignorant that Witch time is the weakest counter in the game, with nerfed startup frames, ending lag, and activated time. It's the slowest counter that causes any competing Bayonetta an absolute headache alongside all her other weaknesses. It's supposed to have frame data similar to a dodge, like it had in Smash 4.

This match showcases a few of the issues with Bayonetta, by a top level Bayonetta player (Lima). In game 1 there is an obvious struggle to get the KO on Ness (who is for some reason ridiculously OP and everyone knows that), who goes up over 200% before being taken out by a very lucky forward smash. In game 2, Lima successfully navigates awestin's DI and completes Bayo's signature witch twist combo, only due to extreme ABK lag, it opens him up to a simple true combo that inflicts twice as much damage even though awestin had to air-dodge a split second before landing himself.


And in this match we see a blatant game-breaking hitbox issue where only the gunfire damage is applied from an up-tilt which clearly still connects and causes knockback. Starts around 15:50:


That a single patch has come and gone without any restoration to this legendary high-concept character who was sickened by careless devs is unacceptable.
Nintendo has made a mockery of Bayonetta's IP, and we the fans will not remain silent about this injustice.

We will protest with all our consumer might! I will not spend a penny on DLC or any other Nintendo product until she is actually tournament viable again and neither should any other true Bayonetta fan.

Get on your social media and get our demand trending! #BringBayoBack

And no matter what, keep a thread at the top of this sub-forum demanding that Nintendo undo their honorless sabotage of this character's frame data! Because without the true Bayonetta, it isn't the Ultimate Smash Bros. It's the ultimate Trash Bros.
 
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Call_Me_Red

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 29, 2018
Messages
135
Location
Austin, Tx
#4
I don't even think Bayo needs a huge overhaul. Just a few tweaks would be perfect. Make smash attacks stronger, cut off a couple frames of landing lag. Make a couple moves come out faster. Fix her "combo" moves that hardly ever work. Maybe make f throw stronger too and you got a viable character.
 

Ulk

Smash Cadet
Joined
May 10, 2016
Messages
55
Location
Germany
#6
I don't even think Bayo needs a huge overhaul. Just a few tweaks would be perfect. Make smash attacks stronger, cut off a couple frames of landing lag. Make a couple moves come out faster. Fix her "combo" moves that hardly ever work. Maybe make f throw stronger too and you got a viable character.
A "couple" frames won't do. She has heavyweight frame data and the highest landing lag in the game due to reverse RCO. And that despite the fact that she lost any and all advantages she received that disadvantage for. What exactly justifies her massive lag if other characters in this game, like Inkling, Peach, and even Wario and Wii Fit Trainer, can easily match her damage output, unlike her have consistent kill combos and all have between exceptionally great to decent frame data? What other than "she was broken in Smash 4" serves as an excuse why she is singled out and given a completely unaccounted for disadvantage nobody else gets for doing what she does better?
 
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Call_Me_Red

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 29, 2018
Messages
135
Location
Austin, Tx
#7
A "couple" frames won't do. She has heavyweight frame data and the highest landing lag in the game due to reverse RCO. And that despite the fact that she lost any and all advantages she received that disadvantage for. What exactly justifies her massive lag if other characters in this game, like Inkling, Peach, and even Wario and Wii Fit Trainer, can easily match her damage output, unlike her have consistent kill combos and all have between exceptionally great to decent frame data? What other than "she was broken in Smash 4" serves as an excuse why she is singled out and given a completely unaccounted for disadvantage nobody else gets for doing what she does better?
It really does feel like a punishment. It feels disrespectful to the character. I think we're far enough into Ultimate's life span that we can give her a couple of buffs. At least enough to make her a viable characters.
 

edde

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 23, 2007
Messages
559
Location
Caracas, Venezuela
NNID
edmichu
#8
I honestly think she's a very high skill cap character, if you don't have the patience to learn her properly its better to stick to another character

Pros:
-Huge combo damage output (this is not unique to her, most of the top tiers have their own combos that are as good and have virtually no weaknesses)
-Great edge guard (Lots of other characters like lucina, the pikas, fox, ness, etc can do this too)
-Great mobility
-Decent projectile
-The most versatile counter (Not saying its the best one at all)
-Great recovery
-Most of her aerials are great (specially bair)
-Very versatile specials overall
-Style points... we play bayo to style on people... i guess styling has a huge cost on this game since the more mechanical characters dont seem to be great (Maybe a ken player in a year or so will make me eat my words?)
-Her entire kit's versatility makes sense, meaning that really good bayo players will have a ton of tools at their disposal, each with different purpose (as a counterexample... Isabelle's kit doesnt make sense IMO, she has a ton of weird random moves, which makes her have to rely on her side b and fair/bair for her entireneutral)

Cons:
-Bad neutral and priority
-Slow movement speed/aerial traction
-Mediocre ledge trap (In a game where ledge trapping is way stronger than edge guarding)
-Minuscule grab range
-No confirmed grab combos
-No kill throws
-Mediocre dash attack
-Absolute garbage smash attacks (they have niche hitboxes and ok knockback, in exchange of tons of weird spots where they dont hit, mediocre startup -and HUGE punishable endlags)
-No true kill confirms/kill throws
-Sub-par tilts (dtilt could use more range, utilt could cover a bit more, ftilt is completely useless)
-Slow, inconsistente jab (come out super slow, most of the times most of the hits dont connect, it does decent damage, but puts opponents out of combo range quickly)
-Very lightweight
-Big hurtbox
-Huge skillcap/time investment to make viable (even the most experienced bayo players mess up on her resource management and end up SDing very early)

What i'd buff on bayo:
-Less endlag on all smash attacks (maybe even add more knockback to upsmash since its truely lacking)
-Bigger vertical hitbox on fmash, specially on the upper and lower parts of the hand since the hitbox not matching the hand's size is super misleading
-More grab range (Im not even joking on how short her grab range is... add in that she is a slow movement speed character and it makes it almost unviable to grab... i wouldnt give her grab combos or kill throws though)
-make jab and ftilt quicker and more consistent at hitting all of the hits

What i'd change on bayo:
-Remove bat within... broken, unfair and unnecessary mechanic (might aswel make up some weird BS like inkling fading to ink too /sarcasm)... it is game breaking since it allows her to be the only character in game to escape certain confirmed combos and it even sometimes screws her over big time... although most of the times she is the one getting benefitted by this


Edit: I didn't mention he ridiculous landing lags after various aerials because i really don't see a real issue with them. Its a deserved weakness because her combos can do more than 50 damage (although most of them barely reach 30), but i think its still ok... high risk-high reward factor. Besides, really good bayo players know how to navigate through the stage with their resources to be the least punishable possible (Here are 3 examples... if you land doing a held up aerial, you will receive extra lag, just tapping it forces you to be more precise at hitting the tap and not getting punished... Also, if you witch time right before you land you will have only the witch time lag, which is a good mixup/tool... AAAALSO..... dair seems to not receive any more landing lag after performing multiple aerial specials since its lag is already pretty big, and its multiple/piercing hitboxes make her able to escape sticky situations)
 
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Call_Me_Red

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 29, 2018
Messages
135
Location
Austin, Tx
#9
I honestly think she's a very high skill cap character, if you don't have the patience to learn her properly its better to stick to another character

Pros:
-Huge combo damage output (this is not unique to her, most of the top tiers have their own combos that are as good and have virtually no weaknesses)
-Great edge guard (Lots of other characters like lucina, the pikas, fox, ness, etc can do this too)
-Great mobility
-Decent projectile
-The most versatile counter (Not saying its the best one at all)
-Great recovery
-Most of her aerials are great (specially bair)
-Very versatile specials overall
-Style points... we play bayo to style on people... i guess styling has a huge cost on this game since the more mechanical characters dont seem to be great (Maybe a ken player in a year or so will make me eat my words?)
-Her entire kit's versatility makes sense, meaning that really good bayo players will have a ton of tools at their disposal, each with different purpose (as a counterexample... Isabelle's kit doesnt make sense IMO, she has a ton of weird random moves, which makes her have to rely on her side b and fair/bair for her entireneutral)

Cons:
-Bad neutral and priority
-Slow movement speed/aerial traction
-Mediocre ledge trap (In a game where ledge trapping is way stronger than edge guarding)
-Minuscule grab range
-No confirmed grab combos
-No kill throws
-Mediocre dash attack
-Absolute garbage smash attacks (they have niche hitboxes and ok knockback, in exchange of tons of weird spots where they dont hit, mediocre startup -and HUGE punishable endlags)
-No true kill confirms/kill throws
-Sub-par tilts (dtilt could use more range, utilt could cover a bit more, ftilt is completely useless)
-Slow, inconsistente jab (come out super slow, most of the times most of the hits dont connect, it does decent damage, but puts opponents out of combo range quickly)
-Very lightweight
-Big hurtbox
-Huge skillcap/time investment to make viable (even the most experienced bayo players mess up on her resource management and end up SDing very early)

What i'd buff on bayo:
-Less endlag on all smash attacks (maybe even add more knockback to upsmash since its truely lacking)
-Bigger vertical hitbox on fmash, specially on the upper and lower parts of the hand since the hitbox not matching the hand's size is super misleading
-More grab range (Im not even joking on how short her grab range is... add in that she is a slow movement speed character and it makes it almost unviable to grab... i wouldnt give her grab combos or kill throws though)
-make jab and ftilt quicker and more consistent at hitting all of the hits

What i'd change on bayo:
-Remove bat within... broken, unfair and unnecessary mechanic (might aswel make up some weird BS like inkling fading to ink too /sarcasm)... it is game breaking since it allows her to be the only character in game to escape certain confirmed combos and it even sometimes screws her over big time... although most of the times she is the one getting benefitted by this


Edit: I didn't mention he ridiculous landing lags after various aerials because i really don't see a real issue with them. Its a deserved weakness because her combos can do more than 50 damage (although most of them barely reach 30), but i think its still ok... high risk-high reward factor. Besides, really good bayo players know how to navigate through the stage with their resources to be the least punishable possible (Here are 3 examples... if you land doing a held up aerial, you will receive extra lag, just tapping it forces you to be more precise at hitting the tap and not getting punished... Also, if you witch time right before you land you will have only the witch time lag, which is a good mixup/tool... AAAALSO..... dair seems to not receive any more landing lag after performing multiple aerial specials since its lag is already pretty big, and its multiple/piercing hitboxes make her able to escape sticky situations)
I disagree with a lot of this.

-Her kit does not make a lot of sense. She has no tools for neutral, her entire move set revolves around combos (which are mediocre and unreliable at best). Her only approaching tool is side-b, and has virtually no solid kill options.

-Bat Within is both a nice reference to her series and a unique tool to make up for all of her other flaws. Also, she's not the only one with a frame 1 dodge, see Pokemon Trainer.

-Lastly her landing lag is NOT balanced. Yes she can sometimes get a 50%+ damage combo, but so can other characters easily. And combos from other characters can lead to KOs. And you know what they have as a drawback? Absolutely nothing. To top it off, most of Bayo's combos are completely escapable with proper DI.

I would be more supportive of the landing lag if it only activated if the special moves hit, but even if you're just trying to recover you get punished. We should not have to resort to minor exploits to avoid being KOd for using our tool kit, which our entire move set revolves around. What if Samus had to stand completely still for an entire second, with no hitbox, every single time she used a projectile. That would be ridiculous, so why is Bayo being punished for using her move set?

In conclusion, I think Bayo is being treated unfairly. At the very least she deserves some buffs to make her at least function like a normal character. I do not think she is viable, and playing her feels like I'm weighing myself down for no reason.
 
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edde

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 23, 2007
Messages
559
Location
Caracas, Venezuela
NNID
edmichu
#10
I disagree with a lot of this.

-Her kit does not make a lot of sense. She has no tools for neutral, her entire move set revolves around combos (which are mediocre and unreliable at best). Her only approaching tool is side-b, and has virtually no solid kill options.

-Bat Within is both a nice reference to her series and a unique tool to make up for all of her other flaws. Also, she's not the only one with a frame 1 dodge, see Pokemon Trainer.

-Lastly her landing lag is NOT balanced. Yes she can sometimes get a 50%+ damage combo, but so can other characters easily. And combos from other characters can lead to KOs. And you know what they have as a drawback? Absolutely nothing. To top it off, most of Bayo's combos are completely escapable with proper DI.

I would be more supportive of the landing lag if it only activated if the special moves hit, but even if you're just trying to recover you get punished. We should not have to resort to minor exploits to avoid being KOd for using our tool kit, which our entire move set revolves around. What if Samus had to stand completely still for an entire second, with no hitbox, every single time she used a projectile. That would be ridiculous, so why is Bayo being punished for using her move set?

In conclusion, I think Bayo is being treated unfairly. At the very least she deserves some buffs to make her at least function like a normal character. I do not think she is viable, and playing her feels like I'm weighing myself down for no reason.

I'll be honest with you...I'm a bayo main and I would love if she gets all those buffs, but being real though, she has a lot of tools to actually work

At first she's very unforgiving and non-rewarding for new players who pick her up, but once you start to invest serious time into her, she isn't really as bad as everybody says... well, ima start answering:

1) her neutral tools are based on reads mostly, her nair and bair are her best pressuring tools and her downb is great for both aggressive characters she cant stop like lucina or projectile spammers (you need to know her ranges and limitations, and how to punish accordingly)
Besides... look at her on the last game. All of her aerials and specials int he air make a lot of sense stringed together... they can do t0ns of damage and even kill when you manage your resources well. I 100% agree though that grounded sideb is one of the worst moves in the entire game, I only use it for hard reads

2) Bat within on the dodges is a broken mechanic, I myself personally hate it since it puts me into a lot of favourable situations i dont deserve and it also puts me on a disadvantage some times that pisses me off (like getting hit by a multi hit move's first weak hit, get 10-15% of bat within penalty damage and landing ont he second hit, getting hit for 30-40/dying... it also can screw her up recovering sometimes since her resources have to be managed precisely)... Im fine with downb's late bat within though if the refference is that important to you, but still, bayo has a l0t of **** from her games that isnt in her kit like the cougar/ell transformations or katanas/other weapons... Bayo needs to adapt to smash, not the other way around IMO

3)I honestly think her landing lag has its ways around... Top level bayo players never get punished for this because they know how to manage their resources, personally, i play vs wario, wolf, ike, pichu and inkling mains constantly and have learned how to not be abused the hard way (all of those characters pressure you really hard)... While I agree that a lot of characters have OP combos with no drawbacks, I personally would prefer that their combos get nerfed rather than bayo's buffed (remmeber sm4sh bayo?)... I still agree that her kill options are poor, thats why i highly request smash buffs for her. Mainly because they offer so little reward on how punishing they are, and if dsmash gets buffed, she would have a solid ledge trap option making, which is almost a must in this game

TBH, bayo has probably the best recovery in the entire game (behind pichu and pikachu in my opinion) still having her huge lag, her options are pretty much countless, specially if you are able to pull the third jump consistently... if you can't do the third jump consistently you lose a ton of recovering versatility.... thats why investing so much time on her is rewarding, makes her become actually usable. Honestly, she's the worst character by far if you dont know how to use her, but i actually think shes good when you've got hands... nowhere near as strong as wolf/pichu/palutena or the top 10 characters though
 

ambience

Smash Rookie
Joined
Dec 31, 2018
Messages
4
#11
Perhaps a little overdramatic but I agree that Bayonetta could use some buffs. But this game doesn't revolve around her and there's no reason to expect Nintendo to buff them unless they feel it's needed. Nothing wrong with hoping for buffs but you shouldn't complain and demand buffs.
 
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Philos-kun

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 16, 2016
Messages
17
#12
To all the people that say that "she's not that bad", sorry, but you're wrong.

Bayo sucks now and you need a LOT of effort to just barely scratch your opponent. It's incredibly difficult to counter projectile-based characters that space a lot (Links, Richter, Samus) and basically anything quicker than her (Fox, Pichu, Pikachu, Little Mac) are a nightmare due to their almost perfect frame data that puts a lot of pressure; Witch Time can't even save you from those foes because it's stupidly long to activate (considering it's a counter), with barely any window of activation and then 60 frames of lag afterwards.
Also, forget comboing small characters, they escape way too easily.

She need a buff and IMO these thing should be fixed:
- Dthrow should at least combo into Fair, Side Neutral or shorthop ABK, so in order for that to happen, change the angle or reduce the end lag frames.
- Bigger Witch Twist hitboxes so your opponents don't escape it easily. It seriously frustrating when skilled players DI almost all of them breaking your combos when in return you get landing lag that can seriously put you in a dangerous state where you can get hit for 30%+ from one of their combos.
- Side Neutral should get reduced end lag to make it combo into something, like Uair.
- FIX HER GODDAMN RANGE. FFS she has the longest legs in the game and Dtilt barely has range and not safe to use, the same happened with Bair, her best and only safe kill option.
- Fix FSmash angle where you can't hit your opponent in front of you.
-Landing lag is ok, but don't make me have lag just for using Witch Twist or ABK ONCE.
-Witch time is ok right now, I find it a high risk, high reward scenario, except ITS ****ING USELESS because it's the opposite. A counter from Roy or Corrin can kill you at 80% and they activate quickly. With Witch Time, your opponents need at least 100%+, luck if it's isn't a multi-hit move, read your opponent properly to land a successful one and, obviously, time to do at least SOMETHING.

Of all the characters from other franchises, Bayo is the weakest overall. I really want to see how pissed Kamiya is right now at Nintendo for doing this blasphemy.
 
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Call_Me_Red

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 29, 2018
Messages
135
Location
Austin, Tx
#13
To all the people that say that "she's not that bad", sorry, but you're wrong.

Bayo sucks now and you need a LOT of effort to just barely scratch your opponent. It's incredibly difficult to counter projectile-based characters that space a lot (Links, Richter, Samus) and basically anything quicker than her (Fox, Pichu, Pikachu, Little Mac) are a nightmare due to their almost perfect frame data that puts a lot of pressure; Witch Time can't even save you from those foes because it's stupidly long to activate (considering it's a counter), with barely any window of activation and then 60 frames of lag afterwards.
Also, forget comboing small characters, they escape way too easily.

She need a buff and IMO these thing should be fixed:
- Dthrow should at least combo into Fair, Side Neutral or shorthop ABK, so in order for that to happen, change the angle or reduce the end lag frames.
- Bigger Witch Twist hitboxes so your opponents don't escape it easily. It seriously frustrating when skilled players DI almost all of them breaking your combos when in return you get landing lag that can seriously put you in a dangerous state where you can get hit for 30%+ from one of their combos.
- Side Neutral should get reduced end lag to make it combo into something, like Uair.
- FIX HER GODDAMN RANGE. FFS she has the longest legs in the game and Dtilt barely has range and not safe to use, the same happened with Bair, her best and only safe kill option.
- Fix FSmash angle where you can't hit your opponent in front of you.
-Landing lag is ok, but don't make me have lag just for using Witch Twist or ABK ONCE.
-Witch time is ok right now, I find it a high risk, high reward scenario, except ITS ****ING USELESS because it's the opposite. A counter from Roy or Corrin can kill you at 80% and they activate quickly. With Witch Time, your opponents need at least 100%+, luck if it's isn't a multi-hit move, read your opponent properly to land a successful one and, obviously, time to do at least SOMETHING.

Of all the characters from other franchises, Bayo is the weakest overall. I really want to see how pissed Kamiya is right now at Nintendo for doing this blasphemy.
To add onto this; all of her 'combo' moves should actually allow for combos. Witch Twist, ABK, and Heel Slide are all escapable, leading to (at best) a DI read or a dropped combo. Up tilt doesn't even combo into its second hit most of the time, much less into a follow up. Down Throw leads into a 50/50 with Fair and F-tilt, but both are punishable. F-tilt and jab don't always connect into themselves, especially if there's a ledge. But hey, at least Up Air is solid :4bayonetta2:.

And last rant, landing with aerials is atrocious. Using hold-up air or hold neutral-air is a gamble because the hitboxes are actually on her legs which osculate. So there is no such thing as landing offensively.
 

Vierge

#1soyboy
Premium
Joined
Jul 20, 2016
Messages
27
Location
US midwest
Switch FC
3850 4617 0606
#14
According to this report, the producer from Bayonetta 1 and director from Bayonetta 2 left Platinum Games at the end of January after working there for 13 years. This is further evidence that Nintendo has been antagonistic towards the Bayonetta franchise, congruent with these outrageous nerfs and competitive inviability.


No I will not spare smashboards the truth about the awful stench coming from Nintendo, having engaged in foul play against the true innovators. Oddly similar to how Konami disowned Kojima.
 
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Joined
Dec 15, 2016
Messages
7
#15
According to this report, the producer from Bayonetta 1 and director from Bayonetta 2 left Platinum Games at the end of January after working there for 13 years. This is further evidence that Nintendo has been antagonistic towards the Bayonetta franchise, congruent with these outrageous nerfs and competitive inviability.


No I will not spare smashboards the truth about the awful stench coming from Nintendo, having engaged in foul play against the true innovators. Oddly similar to how Konami disowned Kojima.
This whole post just reeks of conspiracy theorist nonsense.

I don't like her nerfs either, but this "omg nintendo is bullying the bayonetta franchise" is literally pulled from nothing except you being bitter and directing anger to the wrong places.

On top of that, Nintendo plays no part in the balancing of Smash Ultimate, even if your claims held and actual logical ground and Nintendo did have it out for the Bayonetta franchise (which wouldn't make any sense to begin with given it's pretty much honorary first party for them now,) but that wouldn't affect anything related to Smash and its Balancing.

I get it, you're upset by the nerfs, but you posting outrageous claims that have absolutely nothing to support them reeks of despiration and bitterness that you've somehow aimed at someone that has literally nothing to do with the balancing.
 
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Joined
Mar 17, 2019
Messages
25
#16
According to this report, the producer from Bayonetta 1 and director from Bayonetta 2 left Platinum Games at the end of January after working there for 13 years. This is further evidence that Nintendo has been antagonistic towards the Bayonetta franchise, congruent with these outrageous nerfs and competitive inviability.


No I will not spare smashboards the truth about the awful stench coming from Nintendo, having engaged in foul play against the true innovators. Oddly similar to how Konami disowned Kojima.
Ok I'm gonna go off the kind and calm train and kindly tell you to shut it.

Shut up.

Nintendo paid for Bayonetta 2. Sega dropped the series, Sony refused to pay for it, Microsoft refused to pay for it, Nintendo did. Nintendo gave Bayo the rights to outfits based on Mario, Peach, Daisy, Fox, Samus, and Link. They put her in Smash 4. They are funding Bayonetta 3.

This guy is retiring. You make us look bad, and the sooner you accept that we got overnerfed because Nintendo was afraid of a Smash 4 fiasco the better.

They went too far, now they need to fix it. 3.0.0 is coming out in April, wait 2 weeks.
 

Call_Me_Red

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 29, 2018
Messages
135
Location
Austin, Tx
#17
E
According to this report, the producer from Bayonetta 1 and director from Bayonetta 2 left Platinum Games at the end of January after working there for 13 years. This is further evidence that Nintendo has been antagonistic towards the Bayonetta franchise, congruent with these outrageous nerfs and competitive inviability.


No I will not spare smashboards the truth about the awful stench coming from Nintendo, having engaged in foul play against the true innovators. Oddly similar to how Konami disowned Kojima.
Even ignoring how I don't agree with you or this video, this is just terrible journalism. Starting off with "nobody told me this, this is just me guessing" and ending without even telling us the name of who left. He even said that we don't know what this guy did on the project. I have more questions than answers at this point.

All that aside, nah, Nintendo just dropped the ball on over-nerfing her. Let's just pray that they have the sense or the guts to buff her in the next patch. I'm praying they buff her, oh please god.
 
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