Breaking out of combos.

[Marc]

For those with the full version and preferably a human opponent:

It's been demonstrated that Pikachu's Thunder comes out even if he gets hit right after initiating it, making him interrupt combos. Similarly, people have been saying that Mega Man's upB shoots him out combos. Is it really that bad or is there enough hitstun on many things where they don't get an opening?

EDIT: http://youtu.be/9qgh1UrUw7s

Talking about this.

 

[Overswarm]

For those with the full version and preferably a human opponent:

It's been demonstrated that Pikachu's Thunder comes out even if he gets hit right after initiating it, making him interrupt combos. Similarly, people have been saying that Mega Man's upB shoots him out combos. Is it really that bad or is there enough hitstun on many things where they don't get an opening?

EDIT: http://youtu.be/9qgh1UrUw7s

Talking about this.

It's not that MM or Pikachu can use attacks while in hitstun -- they can't. That said, Thunder and MM's up+b with Rush don't seem to actually care about certain types of hitstun -- specifically the really weak hitstun. Rush will appear and the thundercloud will appear. Similar fast moves (like Megaman's nair) cannot be done.

My hypothesis is that Megaman can call rush down and is actually hitting the Rush spring, causing him to up+b out of the combo. It's not that he's using up+b, he's just calling Rush and then the dog happens to be there and MM hits it. This accoutns for the extra height. I still have more testing to do, but we'll see.

Either way, it's not really that bad. Kel and I played with it quite a bit and you can follow megaman up off of the Rush coil and can essentially "call it" and jump into the up+b to continue the combo with some pretty devastating results.

 

[Ishiey]

Perhaps it's possible to cancel out of hitstun earlier with a special than it is with an attack? As OS said I don't find it to be a huge issue, I feel like a lot of strings in this game (from the 5char demo lol) leave the opponent with a few frames of freedom anyways so you have to read their action accordingly anyways. Correct me if I'm wrong though, people with the full version :x

 

[Marc]

I do think it's pretty obnoxious that we have to bait out thunder or get hit for something as basic as a jab string. I've seen Mega Man being called on breaking out and getting punished for it, but it's still a very strong option and I'm wondering how many characters have tools like that. But yeah, can't really test it until I play people.

 

[Dabuz]

Rosalina can do something similar where during hitstun she can attack with Luma. Won't be surprised if moves like G&Ws UP-B, MK's, ect. all escape.

 

[Neo Zero]

Rosalina can do something similar where during hitstun she can attack with Luma. Won't be surprised if moves like G&Ws UP-B, MK's, ect. all escape.

To add to this, I was on For Glory and noticed DHD can apparently do similar with that can of his. I'm not entirely sure if he was in hitstun at the time, but it seemed like it. Might be worth looking into.

EDIT: So I decided to test some stuff out with @ Dabuz about this actually. Here's what we got (we primarily used the same set up as used in the Rush Canceling video, Mario Down Throw>Utilt)

-Pac Man can summon his trampoline, but not his fire hydrant. It doesn't really get him out of a combo though, but it's a safety net
-Sonic can make his spring, however the spring gets canceled out and he gets hit anyway
-Duck Hunt Dog can shoot at both his can and frisbee while in hitstun. Additionally, in the above set up he can actually summon the can out and interrupt the combo with the explosion, however it hurts him and the opponent in that case
-DDD can get a gordo out...however this is completely worthless, and in fact, dangerous to you, as the Gordo will just be hit into DDD.
-Diddy cannot get his Banana's out

Pretty much it seems that any move that "summons" a seperate entity apart from the character will come out in these situations. However, how fast these work matters a lot. For example, while fundamentally the same, Sonic and Mega Man's springs produce different results. Sonic starts summoning his spring, but gets hit out of it in this scenario, while Mega Man of course just flies off without a care in the world.

Also, just because some work in some cases doesn't mean it will in others. For example, while DHD can combo break in that scenario with his Neutral B, he can't for example escape a multi hitting move like Mega Man's dash attack (where as Mega Man can escape both with his Up B). If anyone else can think of further things to test or can retest some of this stuff in a lag free environment, that would be much appreciated though.

 

[Krynxe]

So it would seem that these specials come out in situations where you otherwise could not have airdodged. Someone correct me if I'm wrong about that.

If creating some extra entity is required, there are plenty more things to look into. Both Link's bomb pull, Samus down+b, Villager gyroid, Wario's bike, maybe even Peach's turnip or Olimar's pikmin pull if you're being hit by a move which puts you in hitstun against the ground (like mario's dthrow at low percent). There are plenty of projectiles as well, which I'm not sure if they all sit under the same category. Would something like Falco's laser work? It's technically an object apart from the character, but it may be considered as a different class entity as it's merely a projectile.

This mechanic is one of those things that has me thinking about not only the two versions of the game, but also Nintendo's ability to create updates and patches. If this were to be fixed in the upcoming Wii U version, would it be matched by an update on the 3ds? If the two games were as mechanically similar as people thing, the debugging process should have overlapped much more than they did. If they are, however, than there must either be additional content for the Wii U version or the intent for the 3ds version to act as a test version - a theory that sounds silly at first but still not impossible if ti isn't the sole intent.

Fully understanding this mechanic will be helpful in presenting it in a neat and efficient way. We might be able to explore why it happens at some point, but for now we should recognize what it is and who can do it.

 

[Neo Zero]

Anything we specifically tested that worked were moves that "summoned" something. If there was a noticeable start up though (for example, Diddy's Banana's) then nothing would happen though. It's possible that any B is triggering it. However, only the moves that summon something apart from the character near instantly seemed to produce results.

Also forgot, Wario's bike also works, and it causes him to spin out in this case. It's a combo break that leads to another combo, but I don't know Wario that well, maybe theres a way for him to escape it on his bike after all?

Also, @ Dabuz told me over Skype that this apparently works with DHD's Smash attacks, but I'm not sure myself. I'm sure when he sees this he can explain in more detail though.

 

[Overswarm]

This might be better for the Vectoring thread, but Megaman can Vector/Smash DI/whatever downwards from mario's u-tilt and jab him to prevent the combo as well. I've only seen it happen once, so it may be that the u-tilt was late, but it seems that you can break out of combos by touching the ground in soft hitstun during combos.

 

[Strong Badam]

Yeah, I have been holding down & shielding in a crouch-cancel esque way vs many rapid jabs at low percent. Seems like the vertical component of the KB is too much after a short while.
For those who haven't read it yet.

"Vectoring" itself actually destroys like... a good 60% of whatever combo game there was, or rather, otherwise would have been. Most of these combos have been tested vs traditional DI; holding away against moves that send upward, and down against moves that send horizontally. Being able to just... be sent further in the original trajectory, without suffering more hitstun, makes it impossible for many characters to follow up, especially considering their would-be combos were already pretty tight or were mixups to begin with. After I figured out the mechanic, I was just vectoring Sheik Dthrow, Rob Dthrow, Koopa Jr. Uthrow, Greninja U-throw, etc. upward and was impossible to combo as a result.

 

[Overswarm]

I'm all for this, because Megaman's combo game was poor and I want to play Megaman.

:B

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

That's slightly depressing to see that ruin a lot of combos.

 

[Strong Badam]

It is in fact extremely depressing.

 

[Overswarm]

I like it. Combos are boring, give me strings any day.

 

[Zankoku]

I feel that, outside of infinites, the most devastating combos were the simple, workhorse (fast safe move) -> (powerful killing blow) combos. SEE: Melee Sheik tilt/throw to fair, Melee Fox Shine to upsmash, Brawl grab release to kill move, etc.

Longer combos certainly turned games around, but I'm not sure they played a dominant part in any of the Smash games after 64.

That said, if the former are still in and the latter are taken out, I'm not sure I'd be too happy.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I like it. Combos are boring, give me strings any day.

I'm ok with Combos if they aren't MvC3 like. Then it just gets stupid.

Still trying to figure this out on my own, not much I can say with a demo and I can't play often with my friends atm with school.

 

[Krynxe]

Combos will only exist at low percents. The game will revolve around strings and neutral game for the majority of gameplay